I'm getting sick of the this sort of sardonic racism on HN, and it never gets called out.
I'm from Europe and I can see what's happening. China starts making progress so US starts jeering every twist and turn. Give it a rest already. Same happened way back with Japan and all the jokes made back then.
Here's a story from 2011 about the Chinese building a supercomputer based on its own tech. Name me how many countries have done that? So, can I just ask HN comment people to please stop with the comments like this, it's gone beyond tiresome to annoying.
In general, the left side of the political spectrum has a much stronger part in politics, and discussion, in Europe, compared to US. Continental Europe even more than UK. (Which can make it more difficult to follow the discussions, as it is mostly in other languages than in English.) Consequently, they also have more influence on the use and definition of words and concept used in political debate.
To get to the the heart of this, you probably would need to find a European leftist to talk with. I am writing this under the assumption that /u/igravious is one. Or, he could just be a bit of a jerk.
Why shouldn't the largest economy in the world be able to produce high tech microprocessors?
The suggestion that they'd be banning the export of Intel processors is dumb.
The "Hilarious" is just icing. To me the whole comment smacks of racism. What would you call it? I knew I'd get down-voted for saying it, and I've held my tongue in the past. But it's nearly every article about China now. These sardonic off-the-cuff remarks. It's so accepted here, and it shouldn't be. So I'm calling it out.
Just to be factual, China outside of Taiwan still lacks the ability/technology to fab a modern microprocessor using a competitive process. Fab technology is incredibly restricted, not just by governments but the companies themselves.
China doesn't export CPU processors, they import from Intel like everyone else. I believe there is a fab in Singapore, but I'm not sure what generation they are at. There is a testing facility in chengdu, at least.
Intel, though globally important, are not the only game in town.
This article suggests that there are numerous Chinese companies trying to make the grade: "Semiconductor Manufacturing International (SMIC), Shanghai Huali Microelectronics (HLMC), Shanghai HuaHong NEC Electronics Company (HHNEC), Grace Semiconductor Manufacturing and Advanced Semiconductor Manufacturing (ASMC)"
> "McKinsey’s proprietary research indicates that more than 50 percent of PCs, and between 30 and 40 percent of embedded systems (commonly found in automotive, commercial, consumer, industrial, and medical applications), contain content designed in China,"
> "Compared to 2008, consumption of semiconductor materials in North America is down $250 million to $4.74 billion, while in China consumption has shot up 42% to $5.07 billion."
Sure, they are putting out cheap low-end chips that are getting used.
But they are still way behind on process. I believe its 35-50 nm, while Intel, the Koreans, and the Taiwanese right now are at 14 nm. If you are building the world's fastest super computer, you are putting Intel or similarly fabbed chips in there...they are not putting their own chips in!
Then there is also the problem of having their own designs to fab. There was a big scandal a few years back where the "native microprocessor" was actually based on an old design that some professor stole from a company in the states!
Just to be clear, I didn't read that as a statement of abstract capability but of fact. China (still the second largest economy in the world by a large margin, btw) is not, in fact, capable of manufacturing leading edge microprocessors. They just don't have the fabs, nor industrial knowledge to build them.
So if they want a supercomputer right now (or frankly at any point in the coming decade or so), they need to do it with chips fabbed in the west. So restricting "export" of that technology back to the west does seem kinda funny to me. No?
I think the use of PPP is more appropriate than nominal - the former measures how much goods and services the country produces while the latter measures how many US dollars those goods and services sell for. A hamburger is a hamburger - Last time I tried it actually tasted better in a Chinese McDonald's than the Aussie counterpart.
A hamburger at McDonalds often costs more than in the states. Many things are more expensive here. You want to drive a car? Ah, that will be $60k please. We spent 120 RMB on a bottle of shampoo and conditioner last week..I told my wife that is almost $20!
You're in Beijing - that's like someone living in NYC complaining US house prices are $0.9m each. Accurate for where he lives, but cannot be generalised to the entire country as a whole, where median US house price is only $0.2m each. Things are a lot more affordable out in places like Foshan (where I had my Maccas).
EDIT: Reply to below:
You're talking from your Beijing experience and I'm talking from my visiting relatives in Shunde experience...Maybe it'll be hard for us to agree. Rents, Food, Public Transport, Clothing, Education are all quite cheap compared to the U.S. and those goods are what enable people to carry out their day to day lives. Walmart made-in-china goods are naturally cheaper in China than in U.S. House prices, Car taxes, Luxury taxes are part of government policy in managing monetary policy and exchange rates with the U.S. and has as much relevance as the nominal GDP - not much when you're measuring the average person's income and the goods and services they can purchase. And remember, China's population is several times that of the U.S.
Please, let's not even get into housing...I can never buy a house here. But at least rents are cheap!
Quality goods in China are expensive period. If you are in a second or third tier city, its even worse. We schedule trips to Hong Kong for shopping...we aren't the only ones also! Cars are expensive all over China as they are heavily taxed. Only food could be considered a bit cheaper, but you have to avoid the low end completely over food safety concerns (e.g. gutter oil).
All in all, I would save money by moving back to Seattle, I think. More to pay in rent, but houses are cheaper to buy, food is more expensive, but groceries would be cheaper. Taxis are much more expensive, but I could actually own my own car and park it legally without paying a whole bunch of money.
It's a comparison of nations' economies, and from the wikipedia article on PPP above:
It is however limited when comparing the size of national economies; GDP PPP is designed to compare the purchasing power of the citizens of one country against those of another country rather than the total size of national economies.
So it doesn't seem appropriate for comparing the size of national economies.
China is the country with largest economy on a PPP basis. They cannot produce leading edge microprocessors but they can produce leading edge supercomputers. They built a supercomputer using their own chips in 2011. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/world/asia/china-unveils-s...
IMO the restriction on exports at this point isn't too important besides notifying everyone else, including you, China can produce chips and can produce supercomputers too.
That metric is Gross Domestic Product by Purchasing Power Parity, or GDP (PPP). The IMF and CIA Factbook use it as a measure. Economies can be measured in many ways. By GDP alone, which I agree is the more common measure, China is not the largest -- though all indicators point that it soon will be by this measure also.
The article says the control threshold is similar to the U.S. Does the U.S. ban export of Intel processors? Why isn't confusing supercomputer with microprocessor dumb?
If by "restrict" they mean "prohibit", then this unilateral action just destroyed most of the world's hobbyist & prosumer UAV trade flows, which were driven by Shenzhen factories big and small.
"From August 15, manufacturers of certain powerful drones and computers will have to give technical details to the authorities to obtain a licence prior to export, Xinhua news agency says.
The new regulations from the Ministry of Commerce and the General Administration of Customs are aimed in particular at drones which can fly for more than one hour and at heights of more than 15,420 metres."
So basically, drones powered by internal combustion engines need to be design-certified.
What we should all be concerned about aren't the exports. It's the "imports" -- drones invading our airspace, built by no-name manufacturers and launched by anonymous people, for who knows what purposes.
Even without nefarious goals, a drone can simply malfunction and drop on someone's head, which is already dangerous. But if 1 out of 1000 drones is programmed to do something malicious, how would our legal systems address it? Do we even have a system that could prevent something like that? We've never had to deal with autonomous robots roaming among people before.
Wow, I don't even know where to begin except.. [1]
There are already millions of "drones" out in the world more then capable of doing all of the terrible things you can imagine and yet they don't because there are easier ways to do evil and people who have the desire to do bad things generally choose the easier route.
I would also like to point out Cars kill 38k+ people per year in the US and could also be used for all sorts of bad things (like running people over) should we be worried about all of those imported cars too? Autonomous cars could be instructed to run over a lot of people! Ban Cars!
This is silly. They are not acting in their own best interests by doing this. The only thing this does is open up the opportunity for someone else to step in. It's not like they are leading in either drone or supercomputer technology.
It would make sense if they were so ahead of the curve that everyone was clamoring to get the stuff and in which case the restrictions on the top end stuff would make sense but as it is I don't think they're in that kind of position. Manufacturing wise they might be but not in terms of R&D.
And the race to build rockets in the US was only about going to space 50 years ago... You might want to read up a bit about the reasons for Chinese industrialization. It's a means to an end. I've yet to read anything talking about China wanting to join the global economy beyond it's internal goals. You seriously think China's end game is building cheap stuff for Western consumers?
I didn't say anything about building cheap stuff for "western consumers", those are your words not mine. All I said was their manufacturing capabilities are currently unmatched but they are in no way leading in terms of the cutting edge stuff when it comes to either technology. It just seems counter-intuitive to me that being in that position they are limiting exports of supercomputers and drones.
For that matter I'm really curious which countries are clamoring for Chinese supercomputers and drones?
As for the history of Chinese industrialization I honestly don't see how that matters when it comes to setting export limits. It is purely a trade issue and usually when exports are limited in this fashion it is because the technology is perceived to provide some kind of advantage to whoever has it. Cryptography software comes to mind as a good example of something that the U.S. government tried to control with export laws for a long time. Carrying that analogy forward I don't see how supercomputers or drones provide any kind of advantage since most countries I can think of that could benefit from buying the technology from China do not pose a threat to it and those that wouldn't be buying from China and instead building things in-house are already equal to or beyond China's capabilities. The export limit in both instances is counter-intuitive because nobody wins from this arrangement.
I don't think there is a shortage of manufacturing capabilities when it comes to drones and supercomputers in any place that cares enough for any of those two things, U.S. or otherwise.
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 97.4 ms ] threadAlso pictured in article are toy quadcopters.
I'm from Europe and I can see what's happening. China starts making progress so US starts jeering every twist and turn. Give it a rest already. Same happened way back with Japan and all the jokes made back then.
Here's a story from 2011 about the Chinese building a supercomputer based on its own tech. Name me how many countries have done that? So, can I just ask HN comment people to please stop with the comments like this, it's gone beyond tiresome to annoying.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/world/asia/china-unveils-s...
To get to the the heart of this, you probably would need to find a European leftist to talk with. I am writing this under the assumption that /u/igravious is one. Or, he could just be a bit of a jerk.
The suggestion that they'd be banning the export of Intel processors is dumb.
The "Hilarious" is just icing. To me the whole comment smacks of racism. What would you call it? I knew I'd get down-voted for saying it, and I've held my tongue in the past. But it's nearly every article about China now. These sardonic off-the-cuff remarks. It's so accepted here, and it shouldn't be. So I'm calling it out.
China doesn't export CPU processors, they import from Intel like everyone else. I believe there is a fab in Singapore, but I'm not sure what generation they are at. There is a testing facility in chengdu, at least.
This article suggests that there are numerous Chinese companies trying to make the grade: "Semiconductor Manufacturing International (SMIC), Shanghai Huali Microelectronics (HLMC), Shanghai HuaHong NEC Electronics Company (HHNEC), Grace Semiconductor Manufacturing and Advanced Semiconductor Manufacturing (ASMC)"
http://qz.com/72542/china-just-surpassed-the-us-in-semicondu...
> "McKinsey’s proprietary research indicates that more than 50 percent of PCs, and between 30 and 40 percent of embedded systems (commonly found in automotive, commercial, consumer, industrial, and medical applications), contain content designed in China,"
http://www.mckinsey.com/insights/high_tech_telecoms_internet...
> "Compared to 2008, consumption of semiconductor materials in North America is down $250 million to $4.74 billion, while in China consumption has shot up 42% to $5.07 billion."
But they are still way behind on process. I believe its 35-50 nm, while Intel, the Koreans, and the Taiwanese right now are at 14 nm. If you are building the world's fastest super computer, you are putting Intel or similarly fabbed chips in there...they are not putting their own chips in!
Then there is also the problem of having their own designs to fab. There was a big scandal a few years back where the "native microprocessor" was actually based on an old design that some professor stole from a company in the states!
So if they want a supercomputer right now (or frankly at any point in the coming decade or so), they need to do it with chips fabbed in the west. So restricting "export" of that technology back to the west does seem kinda funny to me. No?
What is the largest?
The EU if you count it as a country, otherwise the USA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28no...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PP...
But by selling a hamburger in the US, you can buy several hamburgers in China...?
EDIT: Reply to below:
You're talking from your Beijing experience and I'm talking from my visiting relatives in Shunde experience...Maybe it'll be hard for us to agree. Rents, Food, Public Transport, Clothing, Education are all quite cheap compared to the U.S. and those goods are what enable people to carry out their day to day lives. Walmart made-in-china goods are naturally cheaper in China than in U.S. House prices, Car taxes, Luxury taxes are part of government policy in managing monetary policy and exchange rates with the U.S. and has as much relevance as the nominal GDP - not much when you're measuring the average person's income and the goods and services they can purchase. And remember, China's population is several times that of the U.S.
Quality goods in China are expensive period. If you are in a second or third tier city, its even worse. We schedule trips to Hong Kong for shopping...we aren't the only ones also! Cars are expensive all over China as they are heavily taxed. Only food could be considered a bit cheaper, but you have to avoid the low end completely over food safety concerns (e.g. gutter oil).
All in all, I would save money by moving back to Seattle, I think. More to pay in rent, but houses are cheaper to buy, food is more expensive, but groceries would be cheaper. Taxis are much more expensive, but I could actually own my own car and park it legally without paying a whole bunch of money.
IMO the restriction on exports at this point isn't too important besides notifying everyone else, including you, China can produce chips and can produce supercomputers too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_economy[*]
That metric is Gross Domestic Product by Purchasing Power Parity, or GDP (PPP). The IMF and CIA Factbook use it as a measure. Economies can be measured in many ways. By GDP alone, which I agree is the more common measure, China is not the largest -- though all indicators point that it soon will be by this measure also.
http://www.euronews.com/2014/12/09/the-american-century-come...
* Wikipedia data drawn from IMF.
Right behind the European Union.
Why is this a dumb suggestion? The article does not specify, nor does the PR release by china.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/sci/2015-08/01/c_134469932...
So am I, but your parent is not being sardonically racist at all.
"From August 15, manufacturers of certain powerful drones and computers will have to give technical details to the authorities to obtain a licence prior to export, Xinhua news agency says.
The new regulations from the Ministry of Commerce and the General Administration of Customs are aimed in particular at drones which can fly for more than one hour and at heights of more than 15,420 metres."
So basically, drones powered by internal combustion engines need to be design-certified.
Even without nefarious goals, a drone can simply malfunction and drop on someone's head, which is already dangerous. But if 1 out of 1000 drones is programmed to do something malicious, how would our legal systems address it? Do we even have a system that could prevent something like that? We've never had to deal with autonomous robots roaming among people before.
What I'm most afraid of is the arms race of drones. It will happen before the AI arms race that Hawking and Musk warn about: http://techcrunch.com/2015/07/27/artificially-assured-destru...
There are already millions of "drones" out in the world more then capable of doing all of the terrible things you can imagine and yet they don't because there are easier ways to do evil and people who have the desire to do bad things generally choose the easier route.
I would also like to point out Cars kill 38k+ people per year in the US and could also be used for all sorts of bad things (like running people over) should we be worried about all of those imported cars too? Autonomous cars could be instructed to run over a lot of people! Ban Cars!
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_mongering
Cars aren't.
The difference is that the auto industry is heavily regulated, and even then you got recalls up to the wazoo.
It would make sense if they were so ahead of the curve that everyone was clamoring to get the stuff and in which case the restrictions on the top end stuff would make sense but as it is I don't think they're in that kind of position. Manufacturing wise they might be but not in terms of R&D.
For that matter I'm really curious which countries are clamoring for Chinese supercomputers and drones?
As for the history of Chinese industrialization I honestly don't see how that matters when it comes to setting export limits. It is purely a trade issue and usually when exports are limited in this fashion it is because the technology is perceived to provide some kind of advantage to whoever has it. Cryptography software comes to mind as a good example of something that the U.S. government tried to control with export laws for a long time. Carrying that analogy forward I don't see how supercomputers or drones provide any kind of advantage since most countries I can think of that could benefit from buying the technology from China do not pose a threat to it and those that wouldn't be buying from China and instead building things in-house are already equal to or beyond China's capabilities. The export limit in both instances is counter-intuitive because nobody wins from this arrangement.