They mention Vancouver's high real estate prices as a factor but Silicon Valley, San Francisco and New York have that problem too. Rather, as they have mentioned, it's the lack of other Unicorns in the area, the scene is still too small.
Also it just seems futile to me to try to find that one special talented executive when we've seen so many times where a high-priced executive is hired only to see them not make a difference and resign early with a huge golden parachute.
SV and SF have BART and Caltrain bringing in people from the East and South Bay, and NY has train lines to the outer boroughs, but I don't think of Vancouver as having really much of anything beyond traffic jams.
Vancouver has the West Coast Express, which is a passenger train that runs east from Downtown out to the valley. The furthest stop is about 75km away and the longest journey is about 70 minutes.
We also have light rail called Skytrain that heads south and east from Downtown, but I suspect the furthest this reaches is about 30km away.
The West Coast Express isn't really designed with my hours in mind (or many devs?). I lived out east for a while and tried to use that train but it doesn't run after 6 pm and it doesn't go on weekends!
Unfortunately the referendum that would have given Translink (Vancouver's transit authority) the steady revenue to expand light rail service deep into the Fraser Valley failed as anti-tax crusaders framed Translink as an ineffective organization.
Once one leaves Vancouver proper the Metro Vancouver area has the same sprawling highways as any other region, but Translink's service area is massive (imagine every transit service and organization in every town in the Bay Area being one service (ok Bay Area is a bit bigger)) and you can seamlessly go from Vancouver all the way to White Rock at the border within the system on one ticket. The Evergreen line which will connect the system to Port Moody and Coquitlam should come on line in 2016.
The challenge facing vancouver is that the population can't afford to live there. While there may be a few tech companies in town, overall, the city doesn't have an industry.
Canadian visa policies got all kinds of foreigners investing big money into real estate in the city while not creating any actual jobs in the process.
So there isn't much of an economy supporting the city + thus a pretty small talent pool for any prospective startups to draw from...
San Francisco has the same problems of high real estate prices but if the pay were better and we have bigger companies here (and the Canadian dollar were stronger) then we'd attract more people. There is all this talent in the States and they'll just stay there. Plus lots of strong Universities in the area pumping out more talent.
As one of the talent in the united States, which ironically I went to school at ubc, there is very little chance I'd move back. I heard a senior dev maxes out at $85,000 a year. And with housing prices equal to the bay area, that's just a bad deal.
But aside from money there is the respect factor. I'm not convinced that tech is respected in Vancouver.
So take a triple downgrade and work for business folks who hate you?
I can confirm senior devs do not max out at $85K CDN. The money is not as good and made worse by down swings in the Canadian dollar, but it's not that bad.
When I was looking for a job in Vancouver the average salary for an intermediate developer was around 70-75k Canadian. Senior devs can go from 85-100k and even higher for American companies with teams in Vancouver. Salesforce has 100k jobs. But a startup in Vancouver doesn't have the cash to pay top salaries unlike a startup in Silicon Valley.
At my level CAD $120k/yr is average salary I've been offered locally, with no options, though after taxes that's $87k/yr and my rent is $24k/yr for a one bed condo so I would have $63k to spend per year. Instead I make remotely USD $160k, which is $210k CAD, and it goes to a consulting corporation that I write off everything I can including rent so pay much less taxes to my incredibly corrupt provincial government. I also have standard options everybody else in SV gets.
Edit: I work for a startup that advertised here in the monthly who's hiring threads.
Basic security tests. I was hired as a full stack dev then moved to "Sr Security Lead" after writing a lot of tests that exposed bugs and squashed them before they became problems. I don't really consider myself any kind of infosec person but nobody else was doing it so I got the position.
Edit: one previous job here locally I did the same tests and exposed bugs weekly on my own time, fixed countless authentication bypasses, and plugged a memory leak that had been slowing down the app for years before I was hired and when I asked for a raise or meaningful options the department manager gave me an unbelievable speech about how they don't like workers with only financial goals in mind, said I had no passion for what they were building if money was my motivation and suggested I quit. This was one of the top Vancouver tech industry outfits constantly shilled in the media. My salary at the time was $70k (2013).
What is the tax rate? CA tax rate is about comparable to BC tax rate. Since your remote, what stops you from moving to Mexico lets say, living beside the beach and paying a lot less in taxes and living expenses? Family? Children?
Friends, family and girlfriend live here but yes I could live anywhere though Vancouver is a good city if you can afford it. My tax rates are prov 40.7% and 27.3% federally though it's a marginal and progressive rate depending on income level and ridiculously complicated. I still pay employment insurance and 4.95% CPP too, plus 12% sales tax on almost anything I buy, except for wine which is almost 100% taxed through government owned liquor store markup so your $10 California wine is $26 after tax and exchange plus GST 7%.
It's worth noting that while Vancouver has absurdly expensive detached housing (East Van: $1.2 million[1], west side more) the rental prices in Vancouver (~$1200-1400 for single bedroom in new building) do not reach the absurd prices seen in SF.
Unlike SF, Vancouver builds plenty of condo apartment buildings, so if you wanted to buy a single bedroom apartment you could do so for $300k-400k. I'm not saying that's not expensive considering the average income in Vancouver, the real estate market is definitely in a bubble, but it's at least within reach, whereas detached housing prices exist in their own bizarre reality.
If you're willing to live with roomate(s), you can easily find a place in a desirable neighbourhood in the $600-800 a month range. While I realize my rent is uncharacteristically cheap for this city, I pay <$500/month in the commercial broadway area for my own room in a 2BR duplex unit.
The challenge facing all these potential "startup hubs" is lack of exits. Investors invest to make a return. Silicon Valley's environment for exits is unmatched. Tokyo, Singapore, Vancouver, all the same issue. Weak environment for exits means weak environment for investment means weak environment for recruiting, etc.
I spent most of the last few years traveling, lots of time in Asia, and this is the disappointing truth. China is the notable exception where there are real exits and (no surprise) lots of investment money, talent, and ideas.
I think this is the most important/accurate analysis in this comment thread.
Vancouver had a large AAA game industry for a decade or so. It was very much driven by exits -- all the small/medium studios got bought by Microsoft/EA/etc. The fever is over and AAA has all but collapsed in BC (and possibly the world -- I think there's been a big shift to indie games).
I wonder if the lack of exits is a Canadian vs US culture thing? Is there data that shows fewer exits per capita? Are we Canadians more likely to settle for less? There's not that many huge Canadian tech companies, and I can think of a couple that failed due to hubris (RIM, Nortel).
The other factor is return on exits. In SF, exiting with 7+ figures means you turn around and start your own startup (or, if you were the founder, another startup). In most other countries, you take your cash and put it into property and other mid- to long-term investments. There are so few investments, successes, or exits that the idea of taking $10m and turning it back into another company is less appealing.
In SF, you can get a great idea implemented and exit via acquisition or acquihire before you've figured out how you're going to turn users into revenue. The money flows relatively freely in the right circumstances. In Canada, that feels far less likely, so even if I exit with $10m I still have to figure out not just how to make a great idea into a great product, but also how I'm going to make revenue from it, since I can't make any assumptions about being able to drum up external investment (since I don't have rich friends) or arrange an acquisition (unless I shop it around internationally).
I'm not from Vancouver so not specifically, I just found the lack of diversity striking and was curious if it was reflective of the paper's lack of imagination or Vancouver's actual lack of diversity. Sounds like the former.
Vancouver is prob the most multi cultural city on earth and everywhere I've worked here is full of female executives, so American problems with ID politics don't manifest here. Just walk the streets for 10mins you will hear a dozen different languages.
The problem is I get paid 2x the local salary to work for US startups remotely, and paid in USD a stronger currency. Everybody I know works remotely for Toronto, or US companies so I imagine power execs from around the world don't want to come here for the same low compensation and high income tax reasons that force us lowly devs to contract outside the province. I haven't seen much local hiring with options either, and if they do offer options they are tiny so why would I dedicate a huge chunk of my life to make somebody else's company rich while making half the salary of my clone in SV who has full options.
it is diverse but at the same time isolated into ethnic enclaves, people generally tend to stick with their own race group for the vast majority of vancouverites and it's very cliquey.
There is a cultural difference in work ethics in Asia and the West. Like I repeatedly saw an overwhelming tendency for Asian engineers to overwork to appear more impressive while non-Asian engineers seemed to leave exactly on time. Overall, I think it's pathetic that there is this outdated working ethic still being played out amongst the Asian community but it's also why the salaries are suppressed, why overwhelming workforce of startups in Vancouver are Asians. The stereotypes is being self enforced by Asian engineers and it was pretty sad to see. One senior Asian engineer (probably making less than $70k/year) loved pointing out how early I was leaving (leaving at 5:00pm is too early apparently) and that I wasn't doing enough. He explained how in Asia he used to work on weekends and that this was the norm. It's pretty much a shit show but I saw this happen at other startups as well and pretty much put me off from ever working again in Vancouver.
In fact I'm not surprised that lot of vancouverites here are working remotely for American clients. The work/life balance culture is horrid for the most part, far less pay and competitive landscape commoditizing each other. There are plenty of sweatshop employers in vancouver who fully exploit this fact. However, enough is enough, once you remove yourself from such toxic job market you start finding out just how much money there is to be made outside of Vancouver. I still get recruiters trying to pitch me on some job and they are becoming increasingly pushy and spammy. Not all of them are bad but it appears the problem in the article is very real, there are literally not many willing engineers who respect themselves to put up with low pay and crappy work/life balance. And so far the HN vancouverite users seems to be exactly doing that, working remotely for a market outside Vancouver or physically moving to American cities. I can also see new grads are looking for jobs outside of Vancouver, so the brain drain is no longer the case where somebody relocates but as Holmes illustrates in the article, it's becoming decentralized.
If you quit your job in Vancouver, and you found a gig for American client, it would make financial sense especially because the cost of living does not match up to the average salary here.
A city is more than just cost of living and housing prices. It is nothing without the people and community. there was a recent debate of how lacking Vancouver is in terms of community and that people were largely feeling isolated in Vancouver. I remember someone from Brazil accurately pointing out how difficult it was to make friends or even talk to people. On the surface they seem receptive and helpful to newcomers but how dare they attempt at some friendship or extend the conversation. This also spills into the night life scene in Vancouver which is pretty much dead on arrival, shuts down after 1 AM, lack of disposal income means a lot less happier people and more people spending time at home, smoking reefer and indulging in some activity with friends they probably knew since kids.
If you saw the bar culture here it's pretty much everybody keeping to themselves at their own tables and not wanting to be bothered. Like even a friendly attempt is typically shot down quickly. It's almost like people are on guard and they think that you want something from them when all you are doing is just small chat and trying to meet new people.
I'm willing to put up with Vancouver for a while longer until I figure out which city I want to work remotely from but it certainly will be even a faster acceleration of the trend where the brain drain starts with someone exiting the local job market and finding new ones south of the border. Thanks to remote jobs, this brain drain is far more quicker and eventually devastating to the fut...
The ethnic enclave thing is overblown. I think enclave is too strong a word. Is it really any different than in other cities (where supposedly everyone is perfectly mixing and singing kumbaya?). There are a lot of foreign students in the city and they do stick together but then again I'm seeing foreign students of different ethnicities hanging out together - they're all in the same boat. Plus Vancouver has the highest ratio of mixed couples than any other Canadian city. Let's have some perspective and realistic expectations on this issue.
It is not at all overblown. There are real enclaves in Vancouver, just take a look at Richmond. Lot of shops and restaurants don't even have signs or menus in English, it's all in Chinese.
I'm not sure if you ever been to UBC or SFU, all the foreign students chill with themselves. Have you ever seen a white guy identifying himself with a group of Korean foreign students who came here to study and barely speak a word of English? Or how often do you see a group of mixed cliques compared to single race cliques even amongst those that grew up here? Even for those that grew up here, the cliques are largely based on ethnicity. We might identify as Canadians but for the visible minority, the Canadian experience is vastly different from the mainstream one.
Just because you say it doesn't exist doesn't mean it goes away. Who says other cities are singing kumbaya? That wasn't my point, I was just offering a more reality based view that diversity that was being discussed above is largely politically correct and doesn't help to the overall discussion.
If you want to talk mixed couples it's happening in the States as well. But the difference between Canada and US is that Canada has no melting pot, there is definitely a lack of the same level of cohesiveness. Plenty of visible minority Canadians still see themselves identify as their native ethnicity. Why is this? How many times have you seen someone described as Canadian as being non-white in mainstream media? Apart from olympic medalists, celebrity or some power figure, the vast majority of visible minorities in Canada are not at all viewed in the same light.
I've seen a Pakistani taxi driver who used to be a surgeon and a Taiwanese pianist working as a janitor. Can these people honestly feel like they are accepted and treated as Canadians? Can we say that they are given the same equal choices and opportunities? No. Instead you see incompetent people running the governments, people with half the wits running companies. Don't fucking tell me we live in a perfect world where visible minorities aren't given a hard time. No, minorities have to work harder, better and faster to get to the same place someone who is readily accepted by the mainstream because their ancestors 'took' the land that didn't belong to them and continues to oppress them. This land was taken by European settlers at gunpoint, and if you live by the gun, you die by the gun. There are no masters or prvileges being handed out based on race explicitly but it does not rule out that there still exists a deep divide on who is accepted as equal or not. Obviously that Pakistani surgeon shouldn't be a taxi driver but he has to because of the invisible hand which in turn is influenced by invisible walls we've built long time ago and still exists. It's getting better but we sure as shit can't pretend that the emperor wears no clothes.
edit: msie, I can no longer reply and you are going to just reply to every sentence without even making a cohesive argument for your case so I have to assume you are trolling. Your superb ability to use the character '>' is duly noted.
So what? Diversity doesn't exclude this. But are you saying it's a BAD thing?
> just take a look at Richmond. Lot of shops and restaurants > don't even have signs or menus in English, it's all in Chinese.
There was a survey done by the municipal govt because of the Chinese sign controversy. 4% doesn't mean a lot. Vancouver has been home to many immigrant groups. There were Greek "enclaves", Italian "enclaves" and Ukrainian "enclaves" and Chinatown was an early Chinese "enclave". What's different now?
It seems that when people say "enclave" it's code for an isolated community that's perceived as a threat to the unity of the host community. I would say THAT definition of enclave doesn't fit here.
> I'm not sure if you ever been to UBC or SFU, all the foreign students chill with themselves.
Yes, it's understandable. If you and I were in Paris we'd be sticking together a lot and have Canadian flags on our backpacks.
> Have you ever seen a white guy identifying himself with a group of Korean foreign students who came here to study and barely speak a word of English?
I can't say, but I have seen white people hanging out with Asian Canadians and Canadians of other ethnicities.
> Plenty of Asian Canadians see themselves identify as their native ethnicity.
Is that a fact? I think many Asian Canadians identify themselves as Canadians but are dismayed that other people don't.
> But the difference between Canada and US is that Canada has no melting pot, there is definitely a lack of cohesion and a sense of unity.*
This difference is simplistic, overblown. Have you not seen the news of the rift between whites and blacks in the US? Of the discrimination against Muslims? Only recently did they legalize gay marriage but Canada has been united behind the concept for years.
> How many times have you seen someone described as Canadian as being non-white in mainstream media?*
That is a problem the mainstream media has and is really depressing.
1. Groups of foreign students aren't ethnic enclaves.
2. You've made numerous edits to your original post.
3. The initial post just mentioned diversity but you took umbrage with it trying to point out how flawed our diversity is. I was taking issue with that.
Overall, I think it's pathetic that there is this outdated working ethic still being played out amongst the Asian community
No, that's just plain wrong. I've seen/heard many instances where non-asian managers are overworking their staff. This is a problem with the entire tech industry (actually in other fields as well), don't blame it on one ethnicity.
of course but what's interesting to note is that there were no managers overworking the Asian engineers, they were doing it to each other. I never blamed it on one ethnicity I just saw the discrepancy that was commonly acknowledged by other people working in the industry.
of course but what's interesting to note is that there were no managers overworking the Asian engineers
Well, that's your opinion of what you saw. Have you asked the Asians why it is they "overwork"? And what of the non-Asians that were working past 5? What would you call it?
I already went into lengths to discuss why I think this might be more prevalent amongst visible minorities in my other post so just read that. Also this came out of a discussion with several Asian engineers/workers from wide variety of industry not just tech in Vancouver.
In fact, non-Asian co workers thought it was unfair and actually spoke out against them working overtime without need but it fell on deaf ears.
Also I'd use > or the quote formatting to make it clear you are replying to my excerpts to avoid confusion.
There are definitely opportunities but salaries are not anywhere near what you can expect from the Valley. For some reason tech employers get away with low wages despite the very high local cost of living.
Yes, employers would say Vancouver is such a nice place to live so that's part of the compensation package. So, if you want to mountain bike and snowboard, all in one day, then this is your place. :-)
There's quite a few companies, all competing for a lot of talent. The problem is that when you get into specialized roles, you get into the 'only need one' problem – a company might need a data scientist (e.g. mine is actively hiring for one last I checked), but they only need one data scientist. A competitor might also need a data scientist, but they probably also only need one data scientist.
That said, Vancouver also has a lot of biotech and energy firms, though they're not as flashy and well-publicized, and I wouldn't be surprised if they have data which needs sciencing. That might be worth looking into as well.
Aside from the high cost of living in Vancouver, another problem is that Canadians are extremely inward-focused in their efforts to hire individuals from both startups to larger companies.
From my own experience this past year: California-born and raised, I was in the market over the last 6 months, looking for software engineering jobs and applied to dozens and dozens of jobs in Vancouver, ranging from tiny startups to large companies. Not only did I receive hardly any callbacks, the ones that did politely mentioned that they were looking for Canadians first, then they'll look outside (then never got back to me). When applying to startups / larger companies in the Bay Area, I was interviewing, writing code challenges, etc., constantly as well as courted for positions.
On the flip side, for Canadians across their own country, Vancouver does seem like the "hip" place to be. I have tech friends in Toronto, Montreal, and smaller cities and the lot of them are considering heading westward, and understandably so. When I visited Vancouver (Gastown, etc.), it seemed very exciting and full of the startup life. My own couple friends showed me their own startups and it felt very "Silicon Valley"-esque.
I should also point out that one of my friends did offer me a position at his company, but the pay was incredibly low (while rent would remain very high), which I believe to be a symptom of most places outside of California (or maybe America, not sure).
I don't think the hiring demand or sophistication is high enough for them to consider visas basically, which shows you how immature the software industry is there. Also very sr. devs in vancouver make less than new grads in the bay area.
I have heard that Vancouver was overflow office for large growing tech companies on the west coast. When they could not get the candidates H-1B status in the US they placed them in YVR. I know of a couple companies that had/have offices. Through friends that work at the companies the Canadian government became more exclusive about allowing tech workers into the country. This may explain a bit of the reluctance to interview you.
Your a new grad from uvic, UBC or SFU. Recruiters from Seattle are contacting you. You interview at Seattle, and get a job offer. The Seattle recruiters tell you the visa process is easy with this TN thing. You have no idea what the job market is like so you go interview in Vancouver.
Your shocked to find out that the pay is literally half in Vancouver. Housing is also half in Seattle, everything is cheaper in Seattle. You really can't tell the difference between the two cities otherwise, and home is 3 hours away. You do the sensible thing and move to Seattle.
2 years later, you work for microsoft or some company down the bay area and start getting your green card. Later on you see that the average income in vancouver is comparable the average income of Reno,NV.
Anyone with half a brain who is from the area will move to Seattle.
> Your [sic] shocked to find out that the pay is literally half in Vancouver.
I think this is changing. There are great new companies to work for in Vancouver who depend on access to top-tier talent and are willing to pay for it.
We [1] have hired several folks from SF and most of our alums tend to head straight to the Valley, so it's clear that we're competing on the global stage for talent. This by nature means average compensation that must be competitive. Others must be seeing this too.
I'm a Canadian by birth and when I graduated with my M.Sc. 10 years ago, the jobs I interviewed for in Canada were offering a salary half of their Canadian equivalents, never mind the difference in exchange rate. As a new grad with education debt to pay off, it's not hard to choose between $110kUSD and $50kCAD... I'm still in the U.S., haven subsequently gone through the TN1>GC>citizenship process.
Even if you land a higher paying job in Vancouver your salary is probably around 80% of what you would get in Seattle and you are paid in $CAD vs. $USD.
I'd be happy with 80% of market salary in Seattle if it means I could work in Vancouver. The reality is actually closer to 50% like the OP mentioned, even before taking into account exchange rates: https://angel.co/salaries
From the perspective of someone who wants to stay in Vancouver, this is just sad.
Weird, it's almost like Seattle/Vancouver is a natural experiment proving compensation matters. Now if only we could convince all the employers in the valley whinging about their inability to hire while paying maybe $150k/year in sf, where the median rent for a 1-bedroom is $3500 and condo buyers now are paying more than $1k/ft2 [2].
Note that there are plenty of people who won't take a job in Seattle because they don't want to leave Vancouver for reasons of family, loyalty to country, fear of America. Yes, that last one is actually quite prominent amongst people I've asked.
That last one is actually one of my biggest concerns, and one of the primary reasons why I haven't given up looking for jobs in Canada yet.
I have a fair number of concerns about Canada, but personal safety usually isn't one of them.
I can't confidently say the same about the states though. A non-negligible percentage of the population there just seems actively hostile towards visible minorities. Being born in China myself, I'd definitely fall into the visible minorities camp in the US, and with the lax gun laws and whatnot, I'd be extremely worried for my life if some conflict arose between the US and China and I was still around.
I realize it's probably not a very rational fear, and I don't have any hard statistics to back any of it up. But safety of mind does have a tangible value to me. Whether or not it's worth more than half of my potential salary is another story though.
If it reassures you in any way, CA is 15% asian and SF is 35% (21.4% of chinese descent.)
imo, African-Americans and people who are visibly muslim or appear to so be to morons, such as Sikhs, get the bulk of the discrimination.
Fingers crossed neither our government nor the Chinese government are stupid enough to get into a shooting war. Both sides seem to bluster a lot but the ties that bind are massive exports from China to the US. I think the chances of serious conflict in a peaceful relationship spanning 4 decades continue to decrease.
Asian, grew up in the US. I've lived in New York, California, Texas, Florida. Never, ever felt my safety was an issue due to the color of my skin. Not only is safety not a concern, but I can't even remember the last time I felt discriminated against.
Good or bad, being the "model minority" in the US has its advantages.
The major 'culture shock' difference I've heard from Vancouverites that have gone to Seattle is that the dense, urban lifestyle of Vancouver isn't quite as easy to take advantage of in Seattle. In Vancouver it's pretty easy to live without a car and bike everywhere in protected bike lanes, but Seattle is much more spread out, is more car oriented, with has weaker transit and cycling infrastructure, and the hills can be a drag.
This has not been a deal breaker for anyone I know in Seattle but they've mentioned their disappointment, having gotten used to a certain lifestyle in Vancouver. Depending your interests Vancouver's easily car free lifestyle might not matter at all, or it might be worth the paycut.
As a recent Waterloo grad, this definitely rings true with me.
I lived in Vancouver for most of my life, and love the city. I'd love nothing more than to live and work here all my life, but I'm really having trouble justifying not crossing the border and more than doubling my salary like most of my friends have done.
From my experience job searching so far, even without mentioning salary, the sheer number of interesting jobs is just sorely lacking, even when comparing to other Canadian tech hubs like Toronto. Seattle, SF, and other US cities are just in an entirely different league.
A quick, unscientific comparison on AngelList definitely matches my anecdotal observations: https://angel.co/salaries
To employers in Canada:
If you want world-class talent, you need to be willing to pay world-class salaries.
Slightly above market salary in Canada just isn't enough anymore, because market salary in Canada is just crap, and anyone who isn't a complete sucker knows this.
This isn't even about trying to steal talent from the states or elsewhere. Canada is literally bleeding talent from its own top schools. Anyone who's good enough to be hired across the border tends to end up leaving because they'd have to sacrifice so much potential earnings to stay.
And if you do offer a world-class salary, you need to advertise the crap out of it by giving us the cold, hard numbers. Otherwise candidates tend to assume that by "competitive salary" you mean competitive with the pitiful salary we usually hear when we apply to Canadian companies.
Someone else touched on this below but this article ignores the brain drain problem.
It's true that Vancouver can attract talent from SF/Seattle easier than Toronto, for example, but conversely it also means Vancouver/BC natives are way more likely to jump to SF/Seattle since they are so close.
> But talk to any hot tech entrepreneur in the Lower Mainland and you will hear the same story: While the city is awash in startups, “there is an absolute shortage of experienced and talented senior executive-level people”
Ahh, there it is. The mythical "engineer shortage" was bound to pop up, as it does in every single article about tech labor. If there is really a shortage of engineers (supply), then wages (price) would increase to the point where supply met demand. Is this happening?
They aren't referring specifically to engineering. Sales, marketing, finance, and operations proportionally grow as a business scales. Engineering (R&D) trends downwards to 6 - 10% of expenses (whereas at a seed-stage it could be 50 - 80% of expenses). Senior leaders for these business operations are not readily found in Vancouver or any other locale without a critical mass of public / mature technology companies. This is actually part of Silicon Valley's enduring success: a readily available workforce for all stages of technology companies.
Hmm, I wonder what companies could do to attract sufficient talent into Vancouver? If only there was some way to "compensate" people for moving somewhere to take a job!
It's more than that and the article alludes to it. Vancouver doesn't yet have the critical mass of tech companies for employees to land at if the startup fails. For a senior executive with a family, that means relocating to another city if things don't work out. Thats a significant dis-incentive to join.
What you are stating is a truism. The unspoken assumption you are responding to is that there is a shortage at the wage they are willing to offer. However you are replacing it with an assumption that wages should go up until sufficient positions are lost through attrition by being too expensive to fill.
I don't think this is a very useful hair to split because it doesn't tell us much about what dynamics are actually going on. As someone with a lot of experience on both sides of the tech company hiring equation, and I think there are two main issues.
First is notorious difficulty of quantifying tech skills. It's worse than a market for lemons, because even the potential hire themselves is prone to misestimate their own skillset. Second, tech skills aren't really fungible. Yes, we often talk about how a skilled engineer can easily pick up a new language, but it's not just languages, it's also problem domains, and work environments which vary widely and can greatly impact the utility of a given person. With job tenures being so short these days, it's difficult to invest a lot in training someone when you fear they will leave in a year and you'll be back to square one. I might be willing to raise the salary dramatically for the perfect candidate (who may not even exist), but I can't compete with Google and Facebook for the undeveloped talent because my company just doesn't have the cash flow.
I don't see how the difficulty of quantifying tech skills has anything to do with whether supply is matching demand at the offered price. Used cars have many unknown attributes and qualities, yet there is still a relationship between supply, demand, and price in the used car market.
I'm in the market for a car. I'm willing to spend $35K. I'd love to buy a Tesla model S! I figure $35K is fair because you never know what's wrong with a used car. Yet, I've been looking for years and can't find a Tesla for such a price. Therefore, there must be a car shortage.
So what? As I said in my opening statement, you are doubling down on a truism. To what end? I don't know, probably some political point you believe in. It's not interesting though. If the economy unravels because we have 50% unemployment, while simultaneously software companies claim they can't find enough qualified candidates, then it is apparent we have a problem. Smugly shoving an Econ 101 in their face doesn't make it possible for companies to pay unlimited amounts.
Working and living in Vancouver as a foreigner, I'll share my experience. About two years ago, I decided I wanted to settle in Vancouver and therefore proceeded to find a job here. I contacted a whole bunch of startups, maybe 5% got back to me. Half of those would call me, tell me they were interested, until I reminded them I needed a working visa (which I systematically mentioned in my emails), following which they would pretty much immediately drop me. As for the remaining half, I went to interviews, most of which went really well, only to be told weeks later that they assumed I would be able to just get the visa on my own. All I needed was for the company to be willing to sponsor me, which is a relatively easy process on their end.
One particular company had the guts to call me, tell me they really liked me but wouldn't hire me because of the visa situation, and asked me if instead I could direct other people like me in their direction. It doesn't get much more rude than that.
Bottom line, I ended up working for the public health sector, who not only sponsored my visa but also helped me through the process.
So, dear Vancouver startup scene, if you want to attract talent, start by getting off your high horses.
Money makes the world go round. Where there is money flowing thru the system there is life and opportunity. And it's not the absolute amount of money or net worth of the place, though that is correlated, but the rate of flow of that money within the larger ecosystem. In most countries and places outside of SF/SV, rich people sit tight on their money, and don't take risks. In this way, they are conservative, and risk averse, and as a result the ecosystem is weak. People here in SF/SV are risk takers and that benefits everyone. We're more optimistic, or dangerously optimistic sometimes but that's why we lead the world in terms of innovation and opportunity.
I am wondering if the BC government is going to start cracking down on this sub-contractor situation. A common situation that I am seeing is a company will hire a recruiter. Then recruiter will rent out their "contractor" to the company. The recruiting company will not call their contractor an employee and include any of the stability or rights associated with that, but they will give them all the tools and other things they need for their job barring them from claiming any of the contractor tax breaks.
There is no tech talent shortage. You just have to pay reasonable rates. You want top talent? Your offer better be at least 6 figures. It's pretty simple.
Important to note that the article is talking about executives, not the riff-raff (by that I mean the software devs). Executives typically have families, kids, schools, mortgages etc, stuff that engineers like myself do not have in general. A 40 something exec vs a 25 year old engineer have very different requirements and lifestyles. Getting developers to come here (I live in Vancouver as a Senior Software Developer) is not too difficult, we offer a salary that's about 80% what you can get in silicon Valley, and you're not in Silicon Valley. To many (including myself) that's a good thing. I prefer a theoretically lower pay for a way better lifestyle, since I put value on my free time as well as my work time. Given the choice between 100k in Vancouver and 140k in San fucking Jose, to me its a no brainer to live here. And the people who believe you max out at 80k are flat out wrong, or are working for the wrong company. We are willing to pay 6 figures for a senior developer, and starting at 85k for a junior one, and we are a smallish company of about 45 people.
Salaries here are going up with the advent of bigger companies like MS, Amazon, Hootsuite etc, and it wont be long before 6 figures is just a baseline. However for executive level people, yeah I can see it being a really difficult option. Assuming you want a house and have 2 kids, thats like a minimum of 150k (1M for a house, childcare is a fucking nightmare at $1500 per kid per month) right there to even hope of having a decent lifestyle.
Right, but rents in SJ are 2k USD vs 1400 CAD for a perfectly acceptable 1 bedroom. So for renting a nice place, commuting 15 mins by public transit and living in Vancouver, still a pretty good tradeoff to some.
>I prefer a theoretically lower pay for a way better lifestyle
You are insane. Are you even being honest with yourself here? Why would you put up with less pay and higher cost of living? What better lifestyle is there to speak of that bigger cities south of the border doesn't provide you? The mountains and ocean? They got that over there too.
The only reason I think you might be saying this is the same thing people without any other choices say, that it is the best choice. This is textbook cognitive dissonance.
edit: well looks like you are a recruiter which explains a lot why you might be pushing this crazy idea. I've ever heard of Zymeworks Inc. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7337161.
have you heard of the edit button? try summarizing your incoherent thoughts in a neat single comment instead of three so I don't have to reply to them all.
yes I have been to both. yes I still think you are crazy. yes I've never heard of your company called Zymeworks Inc. which explains why it pays less (as you already mentioned it is even lower than what other senior positions in vancouver pays since it's a small company), yes it is significantly lower than US and by 60% if you factor in exchange rate. Your arrogant attitude doesn't help at all. You seem convinced that SV engineers can do more with less money. I don't think even skilled engineers would work for that kind of salary here in Vancouver but you might not be after quality but high turnover. Would anyone reading what you wrote and how you are behaving really convince people here and elsewhere to work for your company where they insist that people need to take less pay so they can have a better lifestyle? You don't need to do a study on every startup in existence because it'd be a waste of time especially since you've already mentioned you are amongst the bottom barrell in terms of pay compared to SV and local, might be a good company who knows but I've hard time believing you don't have any issues with bringing someone from SV to Vancouver that offers 60% less pay and same or more cost of living compared to SV. You really don't know what you are talking about.
And I can confidently say I am being honest with myself because I am actually doing exactly what I said. Live in Van, had options for 30% more pay in the US (at least) (Seattle and San Fran), took me less than 20 seconds to say no thanks.
Right, I forgot you have done a detailed study of every startup in existence! The fact that you haven't heard about us is totally irrelevant to my comment, I never claimed to work for a big famous company. In fact you proved my point even more: that a small, never heard of company (to people like you in a different field than mine) is paying their senior developers enough that I have no problem with it, even compared to larger companies.
I really don't understand how you differentiate between a software developer and an executive this way. Plenty of devs have kids and are older than 25. Not all older people are execs. You also underestimate the current situation of the low Canadian dollar so you can't compare salaries on par. Also there is less income tax burden in the US. Also, as noted why not go work in Seattle, it's ALSO not Silicon Valley which having worked there I can understand why you might not like the living conditions.
Totally agree, cant really compare salaries. Im guessing with the CAD being beaten the way it is, Im making about 30% less than I would in the US. And like you said, I'm one of those with a wife and a kid, and not an exec. But I have a mortgage, childcare just like anyone else. Ans I can afford it no problem on my salary here.
Pretty much any time the question is "How do you attract top-level talent?", the answer is "Pay more".
The problem with the tech scene (or even starting any business in Canada) is that there's a lack of investment dollars (many rich Canadians would rather park their money in foreign stocks), and real estate prices are absurd relative to wages (since real estate is seen as the 'safest' place to park your dollars).
Corporate business culture in Canada isn't great either - it's overly conservative and very slow to change and adopt new ideas. Apart from our banks, we have no corporations that are even remotely competitive on the world stage (maybe Bombardier).
I love Canada, but when I'm done my degree, I'll probably be moving abroad, like most of my educated relatives have already done...
The interesting thing about this article vs others is that it's not talking about lacking qualified technical people, but "senior executive-level people".
This is just my anecdotal sampling, but I wouldn't assume there's a shortage of tech _workers_ in the area.
And remember, much of the "tech" startup scene is all about pushing automated marketing ideas based on commodity software out the door, not pushing the boundaries of tech itself. This really doesn't require top-tier tech worker talent, just reasonable competence and follow-through.
Seriously, what is with talking about programmers like they're porn stars? Programming skill isn't something you're born with and stuck with for the rest of your life: it comes and goes depending on the project at hand how much practice you've had. You might be stuck with the same size of penis but your programming ability is fluid and able to change.
It says something about the labor market when employers refer to potential workers like they would talk about a show dog.
Vancouver has a real problem, these company founders aside from dwave and shoes.com are fundamentally weak on the vision side. They often have some bizarre cultural aesthetic that drives away people who can actually perform in high tech. I mean the HR person for hootsuite probably cant even add together integers for gods sake.
This isn't silicon Valley, this is shitty vancouver where "me too" companies are the norm. D-wave is the only company going for a moonshot here.
Vancouver's main problem with attracting top-level talent is pay. I live in Vancouver but don't really work much here anymore (mostly remote now) because of pay. The article focusses on the high cost of housing, though in practice renting isn't too bad (particularly if you're happy living in a sardine can or someone's basement).
I have had serious job offers here at less than 1/3 of my usual rate. I've been told that what I'm looking for (what I'm already getting for remote work) is director or C-level. "There's much more to consider than compensation" is a reasonably common excuse from recruiters, but the fact of the matter is that if you are trying to hire competent senior engineers for $30/hr, of course you're going to lose out to places that are paying amounts that are above a living wage.
Vancouver's okay, for sure, but being the self-proclaimed "lifestyle capital of the world" only carries weight if you get a good work-life balance, and can afford to do the things that you want to do.
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 184 ms ] threadAlso it just seems futile to me to try to find that one special talented executive when we've seen so many times where a high-priced executive is hired only to see them not make a difference and resign early with a huge golden parachute.
We also have light rail called Skytrain that heads south and east from Downtown, but I suspect the furthest this reaches is about 30km away.
The reality couldn't be more different, as Translink is one of the most effective transit systems in western North America and is a model for transit planners. https://www.biv.com/article/2015/3/who-takes-transit-work-me...
Once one leaves Vancouver proper the Metro Vancouver area has the same sprawling highways as any other region, but Translink's service area is massive (imagine every transit service and organization in every town in the Bay Area being one service (ok Bay Area is a bit bigger)) and you can seamlessly go from Vancouver all the way to White Rock at the border within the system on one ticket. The Evergreen line which will connect the system to Port Moody and Coquitlam should come on line in 2016.
Canadian visa policies got all kinds of foreigners investing big money into real estate in the city while not creating any actual jobs in the process.
So there isn't much of an economy supporting the city + thus a pretty small talent pool for any prospective startups to draw from...
But aside from money there is the respect factor. I'm not convinced that tech is respected in Vancouver.
So take a triple downgrade and work for business folks who hate you?
Edit: I work for a startup that advertised here in the monthly who's hiring threads.
Edit: one previous job here locally I did the same tests and exposed bugs weekly on my own time, fixed countless authentication bypasses, and plugged a memory leak that had been slowing down the app for years before I was hired and when I asked for a raise or meaningful options the department manager gave me an unbelievable speech about how they don't like workers with only financial goals in mind, said I had no passion for what they were building if money was my motivation and suggested I quit. This was one of the top Vancouver tech industry outfits constantly shilled in the media. My salary at the time was $70k (2013).
Would be very helpful for the community in general, you seem to have a great knowledge to share!
What are you able to tax deduct besides % rent used solely for business?
Lease vehicle?
Top tier talent is just not for Canada.
Unlike SF, Vancouver builds plenty of condo apartment buildings, so if you wanted to buy a single bedroom apartment you could do so for $300k-400k. I'm not saying that's not expensive considering the average income in Vancouver, the real estate market is definitely in a bubble, but it's at least within reach, whereas detached housing prices exist in their own bizarre reality.
[1] http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/vancouvers...
I spent most of the last few years traveling, lots of time in Asia, and this is the disappointing truth. China is the notable exception where there are real exits and (no surprise) lots of investment money, talent, and ideas.
Vancouver had a large AAA game industry for a decade or so. It was very much driven by exits -- all the small/medium studios got bought by Microsoft/EA/etc. The fever is over and AAA has all but collapsed in BC (and possibly the world -- I think there's been a big shift to indie games).
I wonder if the lack of exits is a Canadian vs US culture thing? Is there data that shows fewer exits per capita? Are we Canadians more likely to settle for less? There's not that many huge Canadian tech companies, and I can think of a couple that failed due to hubris (RIM, Nortel).
In SF, you can get a great idea implemented and exit via acquisition or acquihire before you've figured out how you're going to turn users into revenue. The money flows relatively freely in the right circumstances. In Canada, that feels far less likely, so even if I exit with $10m I still have to figure out not just how to make a great idea into a great product, but also how I'm going to make revenue from it, since I can't make any assumptions about being able to drum up external investment (since I don't have rich friends) or arrange an acquisition (unless I shop it around internationally).
The problem is I get paid 2x the local salary to work for US startups remotely, and paid in USD a stronger currency. Everybody I know works remotely for Toronto, or US companies so I imagine power execs from around the world don't want to come here for the same low compensation and high income tax reasons that force us lowly devs to contract outside the province. I haven't seen much local hiring with options either, and if they do offer options they are tiny so why would I dedicate a huge chunk of my life to make somebody else's company rich while making half the salary of my clone in SV who has full options.
There is a cultural difference in work ethics in Asia and the West. Like I repeatedly saw an overwhelming tendency for Asian engineers to overwork to appear more impressive while non-Asian engineers seemed to leave exactly on time. Overall, I think it's pathetic that there is this outdated working ethic still being played out amongst the Asian community but it's also why the salaries are suppressed, why overwhelming workforce of startups in Vancouver are Asians. The stereotypes is being self enforced by Asian engineers and it was pretty sad to see. One senior Asian engineer (probably making less than $70k/year) loved pointing out how early I was leaving (leaving at 5:00pm is too early apparently) and that I wasn't doing enough. He explained how in Asia he used to work on weekends and that this was the norm. It's pretty much a shit show but I saw this happen at other startups as well and pretty much put me off from ever working again in Vancouver.
In fact I'm not surprised that lot of vancouverites here are working remotely for American clients. The work/life balance culture is horrid for the most part, far less pay and competitive landscape commoditizing each other. There are plenty of sweatshop employers in vancouver who fully exploit this fact. However, enough is enough, once you remove yourself from such toxic job market you start finding out just how much money there is to be made outside of Vancouver. I still get recruiters trying to pitch me on some job and they are becoming increasingly pushy and spammy. Not all of them are bad but it appears the problem in the article is very real, there are literally not many willing engineers who respect themselves to put up with low pay and crappy work/life balance. And so far the HN vancouverite users seems to be exactly doing that, working remotely for a market outside Vancouver or physically moving to American cities. I can also see new grads are looking for jobs outside of Vancouver, so the brain drain is no longer the case where somebody relocates but as Holmes illustrates in the article, it's becoming decentralized.
If you quit your job in Vancouver, and you found a gig for American client, it would make financial sense especially because the cost of living does not match up to the average salary here.
A city is more than just cost of living and housing prices. It is nothing without the people and community. there was a recent debate of how lacking Vancouver is in terms of community and that people were largely feeling isolated in Vancouver. I remember someone from Brazil accurately pointing out how difficult it was to make friends or even talk to people. On the surface they seem receptive and helpful to newcomers but how dare they attempt at some friendship or extend the conversation. This also spills into the night life scene in Vancouver which is pretty much dead on arrival, shuts down after 1 AM, lack of disposal income means a lot less happier people and more people spending time at home, smoking reefer and indulging in some activity with friends they probably knew since kids.
If you saw the bar culture here it's pretty much everybody keeping to themselves at their own tables and not wanting to be bothered. Like even a friendly attempt is typically shot down quickly. It's almost like people are on guard and they think that you want something from them when all you are doing is just small chat and trying to meet new people.
I'm willing to put up with Vancouver for a while longer until I figure out which city I want to work remotely from but it certainly will be even a faster acceleration of the trend where the brain drain starts with someone exiting the local job market and finding new ones south of the border. Thanks to remote jobs, this brain drain is far more quicker and eventually devastating to the fut...
I'm not sure if you ever been to UBC or SFU, all the foreign students chill with themselves. Have you ever seen a white guy identifying himself with a group of Korean foreign students who came here to study and barely speak a word of English? Or how often do you see a group of mixed cliques compared to single race cliques even amongst those that grew up here? Even for those that grew up here, the cliques are largely based on ethnicity. We might identify as Canadians but for the visible minority, the Canadian experience is vastly different from the mainstream one.
Just because you say it doesn't exist doesn't mean it goes away. Who says other cities are singing kumbaya? That wasn't my point, I was just offering a more reality based view that diversity that was being discussed above is largely politically correct and doesn't help to the overall discussion.
If you want to talk mixed couples it's happening in the States as well. But the difference between Canada and US is that Canada has no melting pot, there is definitely a lack of the same level of cohesiveness. Plenty of visible minority Canadians still see themselves identify as their native ethnicity. Why is this? How many times have you seen someone described as Canadian as being non-white in mainstream media? Apart from olympic medalists, celebrity or some power figure, the vast majority of visible minorities in Canada are not at all viewed in the same light.
I've seen a Pakistani taxi driver who used to be a surgeon and a Taiwanese pianist working as a janitor. Can these people honestly feel like they are accepted and treated as Canadians? Can we say that they are given the same equal choices and opportunities? No. Instead you see incompetent people running the governments, people with half the wits running companies. Don't fucking tell me we live in a perfect world where visible minorities aren't given a hard time. No, minorities have to work harder, better and faster to get to the same place someone who is readily accepted by the mainstream because their ancestors 'took' the land that didn't belong to them and continues to oppress them. This land was taken by European settlers at gunpoint, and if you live by the gun, you die by the gun. There are no masters or prvileges being handed out based on race explicitly but it does not rule out that there still exists a deep divide on who is accepted as equal or not. Obviously that Pakistani surgeon shouldn't be a taxi driver but he has to because of the invisible hand which in turn is influenced by invisible walls we've built long time ago and still exists. It's getting better but we sure as shit can't pretend that the emperor wears no clothes.
edit: msie, I can no longer reply and you are going to just reply to every sentence without even making a cohesive argument for your case so I have to assume you are trolling. Your superb ability to use the character '>' is duly noted.
I said good day, sir.
So what? Diversity doesn't exclude this. But are you saying it's a BAD thing?
> just take a look at Richmond. Lot of shops and restaurants > don't even have signs or menus in English, it's all in Chinese.
There was a survey done by the municipal govt because of the Chinese sign controversy. 4% doesn't mean a lot. Vancouver has been home to many immigrant groups. There were Greek "enclaves", Italian "enclaves" and Ukrainian "enclaves" and Chinatown was an early Chinese "enclave". What's different now?
It seems that when people say "enclave" it's code for an isolated community that's perceived as a threat to the unity of the host community. I would say THAT definition of enclave doesn't fit here.
> I'm not sure if you ever been to UBC or SFU, all the foreign students chill with themselves.
Yes, it's understandable. If you and I were in Paris we'd be sticking together a lot and have Canadian flags on our backpacks.
> Have you ever seen a white guy identifying himself with a group of Korean foreign students who came here to study and barely speak a word of English?
I can't say, but I have seen white people hanging out with Asian Canadians and Canadians of other ethnicities.
> Plenty of Asian Canadians see themselves identify as their native ethnicity.
Is that a fact? I think many Asian Canadians identify themselves as Canadians but are dismayed that other people don't.
> But the difference between Canada and US is that Canada has no melting pot, there is definitely a lack of cohesion and a sense of unity.*
This difference is simplistic, overblown. Have you not seen the news of the rift between whites and blacks in the US? Of the discrimination against Muslims? Only recently did they legalize gay marriage but Canada has been united behind the concept for years.
> How many times have you seen someone described as Canadian as being non-white in mainstream media?*
That is a problem the mainstream media has and is really depressing.
>and a Taiwanese pianist working as a janitor. Can these
>people honestly feel like they are accepted and treated as
>Canadians? Can we say that they are given the same equal
>choices and opportunities? No.
You've just added the last paragraph and it completely changes the complexion of your post for me. Yes, I agree.
2. You've made numerous edits to your original post.
3. The initial post just mentioned diversity but you took umbrage with it trying to point out how flawed our diversity is. I was taking issue with that.
No, that's just plain wrong. I've seen/heard many instances where non-asian managers are overworking their staff. This is a problem with the entire tech industry (actually in other fields as well), don't blame it on one ethnicity.
Well, that's your opinion of what you saw. Have you asked the Asians why it is they "overwork"? And what of the non-Asians that were working past 5? What would you call it?
In fact, non-Asian co workers thought it was unfair and actually spoke out against them working overtime without need but it fell on deaf ears.
Also I'd use > or the quote formatting to make it clear you are replying to my excerpts to avoid confusion.
Not quite what I was expecting from the title.
As a data scientist in Montreal considering a move to Vancouver, how is the hiring situation for technical work?
That said, Vancouver also has a lot of biotech and energy firms, though they're not as flashy and well-publicized, and I wouldn't be surprised if they have data which needs sciencing. That might be worth looking into as well.
From my own experience this past year: California-born and raised, I was in the market over the last 6 months, looking for software engineering jobs and applied to dozens and dozens of jobs in Vancouver, ranging from tiny startups to large companies. Not only did I receive hardly any callbacks, the ones that did politely mentioned that they were looking for Canadians first, then they'll look outside (then never got back to me). When applying to startups / larger companies in the Bay Area, I was interviewing, writing code challenges, etc., constantly as well as courted for positions.
On the flip side, for Canadians across their own country, Vancouver does seem like the "hip" place to be. I have tech friends in Toronto, Montreal, and smaller cities and the lot of them are considering heading westward, and understandably so. When I visited Vancouver (Gastown, etc.), it seemed very exciting and full of the startup life. My own couple friends showed me their own startups and it felt very "Silicon Valley"-esque.
I should also point out that one of my friends did offer me a position at his company, but the pay was incredibly low (while rent would remain very high), which I believe to be a symptom of most places outside of California (or maybe America, not sure).
Your shocked to find out that the pay is literally half in Vancouver. Housing is also half in Seattle, everything is cheaper in Seattle. You really can't tell the difference between the two cities otherwise, and home is 3 hours away. You do the sensible thing and move to Seattle.
2 years later, you work for microsoft or some company down the bay area and start getting your green card. Later on you see that the average income in vancouver is comparable the average income of Reno,NV.
Anyone with half a brain who is from the area will move to Seattle.
I think this is changing. There are great new companies to work for in Vancouver who depend on access to top-tier talent and are willing to pay for it.
We [1] have hired several folks from SF and most of our alums tend to head straight to the Valley, so it's clear that we're competing on the global stage for talent. This by nature means average compensation that must be competitive. Others must be seeing this too.
[1] Axiom Zen: https://axiomzen.co
Even if you land a higher paying job in Vancouver your salary is probably around 80% of what you would get in Seattle and you are paid in $CAD vs. $USD.
I'd be happy with 80% of market salary in Seattle if it means I could work in Vancouver. The reality is actually closer to 50% like the OP mentioned, even before taking into account exchange rates: https://angel.co/salaries
From the perspective of someone who wants to stay in Vancouver, this is just sad.
[1] http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2015/07/02/sfs_median_asking_r...
[2] http://www.sfgate.com/realestate/article/S-F-condo-market-pa...
I have a fair number of concerns about Canada, but personal safety usually isn't one of them.
I can't confidently say the same about the states though. A non-negligible percentage of the population there just seems actively hostile towards visible minorities. Being born in China myself, I'd definitely fall into the visible minorities camp in the US, and with the lax gun laws and whatnot, I'd be extremely worried for my life if some conflict arose between the US and China and I was still around.
I realize it's probably not a very rational fear, and I don't have any hard statistics to back any of it up. But safety of mind does have a tangible value to me. Whether or not it's worth more than half of my potential salary is another story though.
imo, African-Americans and people who are visibly muslim or appear to so be to morons, such as Sikhs, get the bulk of the discrimination.
Fingers crossed neither our government nor the Chinese government are stupid enough to get into a shooting war. Both sides seem to bluster a lot but the ties that bind are massive exports from China to the US. I think the chances of serious conflict in a peaceful relationship spanning 4 decades continue to decrease.
Good or bad, being the "model minority" in the US has its advantages.
This has not been a deal breaker for anyone I know in Seattle but they've mentioned their disappointment, having gotten used to a certain lifestyle in Vancouver. Depending your interests Vancouver's easily car free lifestyle might not matter at all, or it might be worth the paycut.
I lived in Vancouver for most of my life, and love the city. I'd love nothing more than to live and work here all my life, but I'm really having trouble justifying not crossing the border and more than doubling my salary like most of my friends have done.
From my experience job searching so far, even without mentioning salary, the sheer number of interesting jobs is just sorely lacking, even when comparing to other Canadian tech hubs like Toronto. Seattle, SF, and other US cities are just in an entirely different league.
A quick, unscientific comparison on AngelList definitely matches my anecdotal observations: https://angel.co/salaries
To employers in Canada:
If you want world-class talent, you need to be willing to pay world-class salaries.
Slightly above market salary in Canada just isn't enough anymore, because market salary in Canada is just crap, and anyone who isn't a complete sucker knows this.
This isn't even about trying to steal talent from the states or elsewhere. Canada is literally bleeding talent from its own top schools. Anyone who's good enough to be hired across the border tends to end up leaving because they'd have to sacrifice so much potential earnings to stay.
And if you do offer a world-class salary, you need to advertise the crap out of it by giving us the cold, hard numbers. Otherwise candidates tend to assume that by "competitive salary" you mean competitive with the pitiful salary we usually hear when we apply to Canadian companies.
The BD interview was supposed to be a friendly tech phone chat but actually was a grilling by an HR lady that knew nothing about tech.
What I'm trying to say is these companies don't know what the fuck they're doing.
It's true that Vancouver can attract talent from SF/Seattle easier than Toronto, for example, but conversely it also means Vancouver/BC natives are way more likely to jump to SF/Seattle since they are so close.
Ahh, there it is. The mythical "engineer shortage" was bound to pop up, as it does in every single article about tech labor. If there is really a shortage of engineers (supply), then wages (price) would increase to the point where supply met demand. Is this happening?
I don't think this is a very useful hair to split because it doesn't tell us much about what dynamics are actually going on. As someone with a lot of experience on both sides of the tech company hiring equation, and I think there are two main issues.
First is notorious difficulty of quantifying tech skills. It's worse than a market for lemons, because even the potential hire themselves is prone to misestimate their own skillset. Second, tech skills aren't really fungible. Yes, we often talk about how a skilled engineer can easily pick up a new language, but it's not just languages, it's also problem domains, and work environments which vary widely and can greatly impact the utility of a given person. With job tenures being so short these days, it's difficult to invest a lot in training someone when you fear they will leave in a year and you'll be back to square one. I might be willing to raise the salary dramatically for the perfect candidate (who may not even exist), but I can't compete with Google and Facebook for the undeveloped talent because my company just doesn't have the cash flow.
I'm in the market for a car. I'm willing to spend $35K. I'd love to buy a Tesla model S! I figure $35K is fair because you never know what's wrong with a used car. Yet, I've been looking for years and can't find a Tesla for such a price. Therefore, there must be a car shortage.
One particular company had the guts to call me, tell me they really liked me but wouldn't hire me because of the visa situation, and asked me if instead I could direct other people like me in their direction. It doesn't get much more rude than that.
Bottom line, I ended up working for the public health sector, who not only sponsored my visa but also helped me through the process.
So, dear Vancouver startup scene, if you want to attract talent, start by getting off your high horses.
Salaries here are going up with the advent of bigger companies like MS, Amazon, Hootsuite etc, and it wont be long before 6 figures is just a baseline. However for executive level people, yeah I can see it being a really difficult option. Assuming you want a house and have 2 kids, thats like a minimum of 150k (1M for a house, childcare is a fucking nightmare at $1500 per kid per month) right there to even hope of having a decent lifestyle.
USD/CAD exchange is insane (1:1.3)
You are insane. Are you even being honest with yourself here? Why would you put up with less pay and higher cost of living? What better lifestyle is there to speak of that bigger cities south of the border doesn't provide you? The mountains and ocean? They got that over there too.
The only reason I think you might be saying this is the same thing people without any other choices say, that it is the best choice. This is textbook cognitive dissonance.
edit: well looks like you are a recruiter which explains a lot why you might be pushing this crazy idea. I've ever heard of Zymeworks Inc. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7337161.
yes I have been to both. yes I still think you are crazy. yes I've never heard of your company called Zymeworks Inc. which explains why it pays less (as you already mentioned it is even lower than what other senior positions in vancouver pays since it's a small company), yes it is significantly lower than US and by 60% if you factor in exchange rate. Your arrogant attitude doesn't help at all. You seem convinced that SV engineers can do more with less money. I don't think even skilled engineers would work for that kind of salary here in Vancouver but you might not be after quality but high turnover. Would anyone reading what you wrote and how you are behaving really convince people here and elsewhere to work for your company where they insist that people need to take less pay so they can have a better lifestyle? You don't need to do a study on every startup in existence because it'd be a waste of time especially since you've already mentioned you are amongst the bottom barrell in terms of pay compared to SV and local, might be a good company who knows but I've hard time believing you don't have any issues with bringing someone from SV to Vancouver that offers 60% less pay and same or more cost of living compared to SV. You really don't know what you are talking about.
"Physician, heal thyself"
The problem with the tech scene (or even starting any business in Canada) is that there's a lack of investment dollars (many rich Canadians would rather park their money in foreign stocks), and real estate prices are absurd relative to wages (since real estate is seen as the 'safest' place to park your dollars).
Corporate business culture in Canada isn't great either - it's overly conservative and very slow to change and adopt new ideas. Apart from our banks, we have no corporations that are even remotely competitive on the world stage (maybe Bombardier).
I love Canada, but when I'm done my degree, I'll probably be moving abroad, like most of my educated relatives have already done...
This is just my anecdotal sampling, but I wouldn't assume there's a shortage of tech _workers_ in the area.
And remember, much of the "tech" startup scene is all about pushing automated marketing ideas based on commodity software out the door, not pushing the boundaries of tech itself. This really doesn't require top-tier tech worker talent, just reasonable competence and follow-through.
Just like when people complain about a lack of STEM workers, what they mean is a lack of STEM workers willing to work for their shitty wages...
In either case, as the offered wages go up, workers magically come out of the woodwork.
It says something about the labor market when employers refer to potential workers like they would talk about a show dog.
This isn't silicon Valley, this is shitty vancouver where "me too" companies are the norm. D-wave is the only company going for a moonshot here.
I have had serious job offers here at less than 1/3 of my usual rate. I've been told that what I'm looking for (what I'm already getting for remote work) is director or C-level. "There's much more to consider than compensation" is a reasonably common excuse from recruiters, but the fact of the matter is that if you are trying to hire competent senior engineers for $30/hr, of course you're going to lose out to places that are paying amounts that are above a living wage.
Vancouver's okay, for sure, but being the self-proclaimed "lifestyle capital of the world" only carries weight if you get a good work-life balance, and can afford to do the things that you want to do.