This is as "hacker news" as it gets, but apparently it got flagged? Considering the age, upvote count and position relative to other stories, as well as that it does NOT have a lot of comments which apparently also pushes things down, it really seems that way, and that's just sad.
The TPP is not itself a law. It's a meta-law, which commits its signatories to enact actual enforceable laws based on the framework established in the treaty.
No device can be destroyed "under the TPP". The TPP instead demands that its signatories enact laws so that they have a judicial process whose remedies can potentially include the destruction of devices. The TPP hasn't even been ratified yet, let alone enabled by law.
This seems like hair-splitting, but I don't think it is. I think the question of what impact TPP will have on security research depends entirely on what the enabling laws for the TPP look like in each country. In the US, our laws already cordon off security and interoperability research from anti-circumvention enforcement.
The TPP itself also acknowledges non-infringing use. First, note that the Vice article selectively quotes the leaked TPP text, which does not demand destruction of "anti-circumvention devices", but rather of devices engaged in prohibited activity. The TPP does not demand a prohibition on security research. Further, the TPP earlier (QQ.G.17) binds each party to balance IP law with fair use for criticism, comment, and research.
I'm not arguing that the TPP IP law is going to be a good thing for security research. It probably won't be (at least, not outside the US). But it's too early to know what it's impact is going to be, and certainly to early to say that it's going to result in the confiscation of security researcher laptops.
> The TPP hasn't even been ratified yet, let alone enabled by law.
Public debate precedes and informs whether a government will sign the TPP. If a government signs the TPP, public debate will precede and inform how a government chooses to implement exclusions which are permitted by the TPP.
The US has entered a 90-day window for public debate, 60 days of which will include access to the official text. http://i.imgur.com/k6Je0Dz.png . Hundreds of industry lobbyists have had access and input to the TPP text for years.
Journalists and academics now have a short time window to try and understand possible interpretations of the TPP text. This will be like reading source code without Git history or comments.
> But it's too early to know what it's impact is going to be.
How many business sectors exist in the 12 TPP countries?
How many business sectors got their wishlists into the TPP?
Every business that was locked out of TPP consultations should oppose this deal. Why should a handful of business sectors get special regulatory privileges? Even if we accept that the citizen-public has no input, there are still large numbers of corporations and professional sectors who did not have a seat at the TPP negotiating table.
Journalists can shine a bright light on these excluded business interests, who surely have their own wishlists of new "crimes" whose enforcement could be outsourced to governments and other publicly-funded infrastructure. If corporate voices weigh more than individual voices, let's organize corporate opposition to TPP. Where are the corporations who opposed SOPA, PIPA and ACTA?
Every technology company should be asked to take a public position on TPP. When is Wikipedia going dark to raise awareness?
Which is meaningless, what is the evidence of the US imposing laws on countries that are not of the US? AKA are corporations getting their way? If we go by evidence, there is no democracy and their power is quite monolithic.
Consider that these laws have been growing in power for 200 years almost, so don't buy the 'the creators are hurting and the evil pirates are stealing' argument, the public domain is completely destroyed (aka freedom to own, modify, repair software, own and update video games, etc). AKA ownership is being taken away completely from you in a one sided deal where they have total control.
"Enlisting a core band of labor, environmental, and community allies, the dozen trade-watching stalwarts at Public Citizen divided into five teams and went after the Brobdingnagians of global corporate power ... it's important to spread the story of the progressive coalition's successful confrontation with the Global Goliath.
Its methods and achievements give us a new template for organizing (and winning) future populist challenges to the corporate order. And the breadth, depth, and intensity of this effort show what it will take to forge a real populist movement--multifaceted and with the long-term capacity to pursue our country's deep democratic principles. We can get there if we build on what we learn--and keep pushing."
The Vice article appears to be equating circumventing DRM with white hat testing. Which is wrong, because DRM is generally understood to protect digital content.
Understanding how some software artifact works so you can discover flaws in its implementation does not usually require circumventing DRM. This is what I suspect the author of the Vice article does not understand.
Below is what the EFF had to say about this aspect of the recently leaked TPP doc.
"One of the scariest parts of the TPP is that not only can you be made liable to fines and criminal penalties, but that any materials and implements used in the creation of infringing copies can also be destroyed (QQ.H.4(12)). The same applies to devices and products used for circumventing DRM or removing rights management information (QQ.H.4(17)). Because multi-use devices such as computers are used for a diverse range of purposes, this is once again a disproportionate penalty. This could lead to a family's home computer becoming seized simply because of its use in sharing files online, or for ripping Blu-Ray movies to a media center."
Presumably you're asking because you're not in the US (where the drug laws are unlikely to change at all due to TPP). That being the case: I have no idea.
The (mass surveillance) by the NSA and abuse by law enforcement is just more part and parcel of state suppression of dissent against corporate interests. They're worried that the more people are going to wake up and corporate centers like the US and canada may be among those who also awaken. See this vid with Zbigniew Brzezinski, former United States National Security Advisor.
26 comments
[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 67.2 ms ] thread70 comments, TPP final negotiated text – IP chapter, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10359604
150 comments, The Final Leaked TPP Text Is All That We Feared, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10363500
edit: the FCC have always had that power over pirate radio - maybe that's the new metaphor that's going to be pushed.
Destroy that bitches!
All they are doing is forcing white to go black.
When everything is illegal everyone is a criminal.
I pay for mine with Bitcoin.
If this treaty and its ilk come to pass, I expect we'll see a massive flourishing of digital grey markets, with a heavy focus on anonymity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABDiHspTJww&feature=youtu.be
The TPP is not itself a law. It's a meta-law, which commits its signatories to enact actual enforceable laws based on the framework established in the treaty.
No device can be destroyed "under the TPP". The TPP instead demands that its signatories enact laws so that they have a judicial process whose remedies can potentially include the destruction of devices. The TPP hasn't even been ratified yet, let alone enabled by law.
This seems like hair-splitting, but I don't think it is. I think the question of what impact TPP will have on security research depends entirely on what the enabling laws for the TPP look like in each country. In the US, our laws already cordon off security and interoperability research from anti-circumvention enforcement.
The TPP itself also acknowledges non-infringing use. First, note that the Vice article selectively quotes the leaked TPP text, which does not demand destruction of "anti-circumvention devices", but rather of devices engaged in prohibited activity. The TPP does not demand a prohibition on security research. Further, the TPP earlier (QQ.G.17) binds each party to balance IP law with fair use for criticism, comment, and research.
I'm not arguing that the TPP IP law is going to be a good thing for security research. It probably won't be (at least, not outside the US). But it's too early to know what it's impact is going to be, and certainly to early to say that it's going to result in the confiscation of security researcher laptops.
Public debate precedes and informs whether a government will sign the TPP. If a government signs the TPP, public debate will precede and inform how a government chooses to implement exclusions which are permitted by the TPP.
The US has entered a 90-day window for public debate, 60 days of which will include access to the official text. http://i.imgur.com/k6Je0Dz.png . Hundreds of industry lobbyists have had access and input to the TPP text for years.
Journalists and academics now have a short time window to try and understand possible interpretations of the TPP text. This will be like reading source code without Git history or comments.
> But it's too early to know what it's impact is going to be.
When would be a good time for public debate?
Sorry to tell you this is just wrong, this is a project of empire, see below first science on reasoning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYmi0DLzBdQ
Wikileaks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABDiHspTJww&feature=youtu.be
The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy And Its Geostrategic Imperatives
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465027261
http://www.amazon.com/review/R2NVX3KKHJONPW/ref=cm_cr_dp_tit...
Manufacturing consent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwU56Rv0OXM
https://vimeo.com/39566117
Protectionism for the rich and big business by state intervention, radical market interference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHj2GaPuEhY#t=349
Other important info
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/10/michael-hudson-on-par...
http://michael-hudson.com/
http://www.therealnews.com
The Citibank memo
http://politicalgates.blogspot.ca/2011/12/citigroup-plutonom...
http://www.rdwolff.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcA1v2n7WW4#t=2551
US distribution of wealth
https://imgur.com/a/FShfb
http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
The Centre for Investigative Journalism
http://www.tcij.org/
How many business sectors exist in the 12 TPP countries?
How many business sectors got their wishlists into the TPP?
Every business that was locked out of TPP consultations should oppose this deal. Why should a handful of business sectors get special regulatory privileges? Even if we accept that the citizen-public has no input, there are still large numbers of corporations and professional sectors who did not have a seat at the TPP negotiating table.
Journalists can shine a bright light on these excluded business interests, who surely have their own wishlists of new "crimes" whose enforcement could be outsourced to governments and other publicly-funded infrastructure. If corporate voices weigh more than individual voices, let's organize corporate opposition to TPP. Where are the corporations who opposed SOPA, PIPA and ACTA?
Every technology company should be asked to take a public position on TPP. When is Wikipedia going dark to raise awareness?
Equal Opportunity for Corporations.
TPP Increases Corporate Inequality.
First see the science on reasoning, your brain is not the reasoning god you think it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYmi0DLzBdQ
Which is meaningless, what is the evidence of the US imposing laws on countries that are not of the US? AKA are corporations getting their way? If we go by evidence, there is no democracy and their power is quite monolithic.
Consider that these laws have been growing in power for 200 years almost, so don't buy the 'the creators are hurting and the evil pirates are stealing' argument, the public domain is completely destroyed (aka freedom to own, modify, repair software, own and update video games, etc). AKA ownership is being taken away completely from you in a one sided deal where they have total control.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act#/...
Crisis of democracy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYFxtNgOeiI
"Enlisting a core band of labor, environmental, and community allies, the dozen trade-watching stalwarts at Public Citizen divided into five teams and went after the Brobdingnagians of global corporate power ... it's important to spread the story of the progressive coalition's successful confrontation with the Global Goliath.
Its methods and achievements give us a new template for organizing (and winning) future populist challenges to the corporate order. And the breadth, depth, and intensity of this effort show what it will take to forge a real populist movement--multifaceted and with the long-term capacity to pursue our country's deep democratic principles. We can get there if we build on what we learn--and keep pushing."
Understanding how some software artifact works so you can discover flaws in its implementation does not usually require circumventing DRM. This is what I suspect the author of the Vice article does not understand.
Below is what the EFF had to say about this aspect of the recently leaked TPP doc.
"One of the scariest parts of the TPP is that not only can you be made liable to fines and criminal penalties, but that any materials and implements used in the creation of infringing copies can also be destroyed (QQ.H.4(12)). The same applies to devices and products used for circumventing DRM or removing rights management information (QQ.H.4(17)). Because multi-use devices such as computers are used for a diverse range of purposes, this is once again a disproportionate penalty. This could lead to a family's home computer becoming seized simply because of its use in sharing files online, or for ripping Blu-Ray movies to a media center."
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/10/final-leaked-tpp-text-...
How long does this process take? Need to know if I should start buying tons of generic medicines right now.
The elites fear political awakening, thats why all this is happening. First, our brains are much worse at reality and thinking than thought.
Science on reasoning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYmi0DLzBdQ
The (mass surveillance) by the NSA and abuse by law enforcement is just more part and parcel of state suppression of dissent against corporate interests. They're worried that the more people are going to wake up and corporate centers like the US and canada may be among those who also awaken. See this vid with Zbigniew Brzezinski, former United States National Security Advisor.
https://youtu.be/Ttv6n7PFniY?t=10
Brezinski at a press conference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kmUS--QCYY
The real news:
http://therealnews.com/t2/
http://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Incorporated-Managed-Inverte...
http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Government-Surveillance-Securit...
http://www.amazon.com/National-Security-Government-Michael-G...
Protectionism for the rich and big business by state intervention, radical market interference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHj2GaPuEhY#t=349
Wikileaks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABDiHspTJww&feature=youtu.be
Manufacturing consent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwU56Rv0OXM
https://vimeo.com/39566117
The Citibank memo
http://politicalgates.blogspot.ca/2011/12/citigroup-plutonom...
http://www.rdwolff.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcA1v2n7WW4#t=2551
US distribution of wealth
https://imgur.com/a/FShfb
http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
The Centre for Investigative Journalism
http://www.tcij.org/
Some history on US imperialism by us corporations.
https://kurukshetra1.wordpress.com/2015/09/27/a-brief-histor...
From war is a racket:
"I helped make Mexico, e...
We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10366757 and marked it off-topic.