Ask HN: Discuss burnout with boss?
I am burnt out at work and not sure how to start the discussion with my boss. I've tried addressing the problem myself over the past year by means of exercise, diet, getting more sleep, more time spent on hobbies, socializing more, and pacing myself at work. It's not helping, it's just getting worse. I know quitting and finding a new job is an option but I would prefer not to. How can I have a productive discussion with my boss about burnout? How did you handle it?
101 comments
[ 1.9 ms ] story [ 176 ms ] threadIf ever there was an indication that you should be courageous and do something uncomfortable, it's when you are afraid of being honest.
In this case it is a win-win even if you lose your job. If you are a)burnt out, and b)have a boss that doesn't recognize the healthy and happy employees are more productive and valuable than starting over from scratch with a new hire...then you not only are you just speeding up the inevitable departure and moving quicker to a healthier and happier place, but there is also a decent chance you are burnt out partially because you have a boss that doesn't belong in a position of managing others.
Managers at most shops are valued by the company for their ability to build and maintain a functional team. If they have high attrition and struggle to replace people, they will get dinged, miss out on bonuses, and eventually be replaced themselves if the problem persists. Conversely, if they are churning through people and skimming off the cream to keep, no one is going to bat an eye at the number of people they shitcan or why they did it.
The relative value of having the conversation vs. not has to be considered in that context. Do you need this job to survive? Are you responsible for others' survival as well? What's the market like for people in your line of work? How is the company doing? The team? How's your manager's stock of political capital? What about the next-level manager's? Have you been doing great work (and do people know it)? Are you paid above or below market? And sure, to some extent, it matters what sort of manager you have. Some are biased toward churn, others toward retention. But the primary deciding factor here is whether your boss is going to be better off finding a way to keep you, or finding a way to replace you.
In 2015, if you are a computer programmer near San Francisco, it will almost certainly be better for your boss to find a way to keep you. The labor market in that region and sector is tight, so finding even minimally functional replacements is difficult. Unless you're an abject festering sore on the company's bottom line, you're likely to find sympathy, cooperation, and ultimately a genuine retention effort. If it were 2001? Not so much... even if you had the exact same boss. When there are legit superstars sitting on the beach desperate for any kind of work at any kind of pay, your value to the company is likely to be negligible, and at that point the only difference between a kindhearted manager and a bastard will be an offer to forget the whole conversation ever happened.
Consider the context and let that be your guide. (Good) managers are always thinking about replacing people -- not necessarily because they want to or think it's easy, but because they know they may have no choice. They have a pretty good idea of what they're willing to do to keep each member of their team given the company and market context, and what they can realistically hope to do given company policy. You should have a pretty good idea what they'd be willing to do to keep you, too. In some cases, that will be nearly anything; in others, it will be absolutely nothing.
There's no simple answer here, because the relative value of replacing and retaining people is so context-dependent.
2. As an employer, make it easy for me! Be able to say what's going on matter-of-factly with a focus on how you feel and how it affects yourself. Don't focus on other people, now is not the time to air grievances within the team. Come up with a few options you'd like to try and lay out the pros / cons (ex. lightened work load for a month, different project, extended unpaid vacation for 1-3 months).
3. See a psychologist! It may be hard to find a good one, but it is totally 100% worth it to have a professional that you can talk to openly.
In addition, try guided meditation (I use Headspace). It feels kind of hokey at first, but it really helped me through a burnout period.
I've often mused with the idea, perhaps there is some systemic issue that I need to have help with identifying and resolving... But then...what? Perhaps we have all seen way too many movies involving psychologists/psychiatrists, that it's slanted our view. I know it has slanted it for me.
Most importantly, they are detached from the situation (unlike a coworker or friend) and have professional training and experience at helping people with their problems.
Often times when I see a psychologist I end up figuring out how to improve my situation on my own. Having a place to spend time thinking about the issues in a calmer way, and the occasional suggestion or a good question, let me tackle my issues from a different point of view. Repeated visits (once every two weeks to start, then once a month) for a period of time provide motivation to put these realizations into action. When I feel better, I stop going.
For a mild problem you would be doing between 8 to 14 sessions of about an hour each.
The aim would be to indentify a problem. Then identify the "hot thought", the emotion it creates, how strongly you feel that emotion, and then the evidence you have for it.
You don't push that thought away, the therapist doesn't try to correct it. You sit with it for a few moments. You learn to identify the physical changes your body goes through (increased heart rate, sweaty palms, faster breathing, tense neck etc). Then you think of different evidence. You think about that new evidence, and say if it affects how strongly you feel the original hot thought.
It's an iterative process! This is just a very quick description - it's a bit more involved than that.
You're right - movies are terrible portrayals of mental health treatment. Like CSI does computers level of bad.
And it still had a lot wrong with it.
Finally providing your own solutions also moves the locus of control internally. In my experience one possible contributor to burnout can be lack of empowerment.
On the side of speaking to your manager, what's your relationship with this person like? Its easy to see someone speaking to you about burnout as a warning sign that you should consider replacing them. If that's your manager's reaction, you'll need to start looking for new work anyway. I'd suggest being _really_ careful about how you bring this up with them. Make sure you focus on the positives (I love this job, I really like my colleagues, this is a personal issue), over talking about any negatives.
Finally, perhaps this is a good chance to speak to your boss about taking on a new project, or trying a different role for a little while? A change in your day-to-day might make things seem a lot better :)
Your manager should then relay this information into seeing what they can do to lower the burden you having to take on by hiring more people or lightening your work load. If that is not something they are able to do then you will unfortunately have to start looking for a new job that does not weigh you down so much.
In your comment, you say that you tried to address your burnout, but is that really true? Maybe think about the causes of burnout, and try to get to the bottom of that. I know that for myself, I get burned out when I feel like I am on a treadmill, where I work but there are no results (in other words, the feedback loop gets broken). If that is the case with you, then maybe you could adjust your role / projects so that there is a better connection between work and reward or progress. For example, reducing page or app size, increasing performance, things where there is a high chance of making some measurable benefit.
He talked me off the ledge and within a day had transitioned my troublesome projects to others and moved me to a four day work week to recover. He had to run this by manager's three levels up, do an insane amount of HR paperwork (fulltime -> not fulltime, pro-rated salary adjustment, etc.). All this happened in a space of two days.
I stayed on a four day week for a couple of months. It was magical. He retained my reduced workload when I came back full time.
His first comment when I initially cracked - "you should have come to me sooner".
The quick reaction, sympathy and support I got cemented my loyalty to an outstanding manager.I'm still here a couple of years later.
That said, even the most cold-blooded bastard is going to make an effort to keep any middling-or-better employee right now. It's too hard to find competent replacements.
Speaking on behalf of all non sucky bosses don't let issues fester - just tell us what's up. Maybe we can help.
When I broke down and got sick I started cognitive behavioral therapy and among the things we talked about was expectations. It turned out that I didn't really know what my boss' expectation of me was. What I thought his expectation was were one of the things that broke me. And it was all fantasy. Lesson learned. Be frank and honest, don't be afraid to talk to your boss. Make sure you get answers that are explicit and something you understand. Make sure it's not cloudy company and management pep talk that you can't even remember a few minutes after the meeting.
Me and my boss talked a lot, and I ended staying in the company, but switched boss. :)
Also if you aren't going to take this approach (if you have the luxury).
So it's in the developer's interest as well for the manager to figure out a way to reshape his/her job to make it sustainable (and thus keep the paychecks coming) rather than just saying "uh, sure, go deal with your problems, take as long as you need; when you run out of money we'll still have your job here for you."
Plus -- "first newborn in the house" is something that causes upheaval for maybe 6 months or so, and then life settles down again. If you have a supportive/flexible work environment then "up all night with a crying baby" here and there (before the baby grows out of that stage!) doesn't result in crushing stress and visions of disaster.
Edit for more context -- we have a developer who works part time and sometimes takes long sabbaticals -- switching into his alter-ego as a theater director. It's quite a different sort of situation from someone who has a newborn and is burning out.
Ha! That's fine until they get to 8 months and stop sleeping through the night again (which apparently is a common thing). A few weeks of chronic sleep deprivation can absolutely destroy your ability to do anything vaguely brain-work-related.
I have two kids, 3 and 6. The second was hard, but we knew what were getting into, largely, and how to survive it. The first was... rough.
I'm not sure about sleeping through the night stuff -- we did the co-sleeping thing, which helps a lot! But still, by 8 months I'll bet the parents would have some strategy in place -- maybe "hey, tonight's your night to wear earplugs" coupled with strategic naps.
If you're not going to do it, who will?
The work might wait a week or two (vacation), but do you really think the clients will be OK waiting months (sabbatical)?
The only industry where it's acceptable to just take off is within academia and that's mostly because most of the teaching is done by staff that would never have the option of a sabbatical to begin with.
Time off is not a solution. The problem will simply resurface when the person comes back.
The solution is to re-organize the work. Hire an additional person, if needed. Add work that the employee will enjoy and that will be relaxing. That's a solution.
If the company isn't interested in solutions, then the solution for the employee is still not a sabbatical. The solution is to quit and find a company that isn't so myopic.
And if you're hit by a bus, then what? The company goes under? People shouldn't exactly be replaceable, but they also shouldn't be carrying the entire company on their shoulders. No wonder they get burnt out.
1. how long have you been at the company?
2. what is different about the work you did this year vs the first year you worked at the company?
3. who at the company seems similarly burned out to you? have you tried talking to that peer about burnout and what the root causes might be (e.g. projects, technologies, pressure from business, etc.) before taking it to your boss?
4. do you think your boss is the kind of person who would welcome a frank discussion about this -- is he or she the kind of person that already talks about controlling for employee burnout and striving for work/life balance among staff on a regular basis?
Outcome 1: it goes well. Your boss listens with empathy. Your boss works with you to find ways to help you feel better. You take some vacation or etc., and then come back to work feeling renewed. Success!
Outcome 2: it goes poorly. Your boss blows you off. Now you have an easy next step: Go find a better place to work (e.g., email me). Success!
I shared the podcast with my boss but first with a disclaimer to not panic. I didn't want them to think I was on my way out. I found that the podcast addressed exactly what I was feeling in regards to burnout. I suggested a 1:1 with my boss after to discuss direction and how they can help me make my way out of my slump.
It ended up being a really productive conversation and my boss thanked me for giving them the chance to discuss this with them. Since then my boss has been throwing more challenges and opportunities my way to mix things up and help me avoid burnout but also find new directions in the company that I like.
So my advice is if you like your day job but feel stuck and have a boss you feel you can trust, bring it up. But delivery is key.
Let's say this is a perfect, magical world where your boss will do everything possible to help you. What actions would she take? Would she switch you to another team? Reduce your workload? Allow you to work from home? Let you take a month off?
Basically your boss can't make your burnout magically go away. Figure out what you'd ideally want her to do. Then figure if that's even possible. If the concrete action you want is within your boss's power, then you may as well ask. But understand that your boss may say no, and you may end up quitting to get what you want.
Also, burnout feels terrible. Really sorry to hear that. Good luck!
I think this is a really good way of putting it. I think it's also important to realize that you may go through stages of feeling like this fairly frequently. It's when you don't do something about it (often because you feel like you can't), that it gets to be a problem.
The conversation "I want to do more / I want to do better. Here are the things that are in my way", feels a bit awkward at first, but in reality it is music to a manager's ears -- especially if your manager has been thinking, "What's going on with Joe? I really expect more from him." Often they are afraid to broach the subject because they don't want to put pressure on you and potentially make things worse.
Removing roadblocks so that people can do their work really well is the job of a manager. I think that many people don't realize this and as a result don't take advantage of/empower their managers. Often people view their manager as an impediment to work around (or simply as the gatekeeper to getting a higher salary).
Even if things are going well, I recommend that people get into the habit of saying, "I want to improve X, but I'm having difficulty because of Y" (even if Y is, "I don't know what to do"). See how your manager reacts and whether or not they can help you (directly or indirectly). A good manager is worth a lot!
Take a good chunk of time off with zero computer, technical or online stuff.
When I quit my old job earlier this year (after being burnt out hard) I was able to take 3 weeks off before starting new gig at smaller start-up-ish company. I used ZERO electronics and such over the 3 weeks. No programming books are anything like that.Was finally "refreshed" when I started the new job.
One important thing to grasp is the true nature of criticism (something that goes both ways). You will find it extremely difficult to get what you want from your boss if he hears a criticism as opposed to an unmet need, while if he hears the later there are much better chances that he will see it as an opportunity that he can opt-in.
But as an employee, I made the mistake at my last job of telling my boss that I wasn't happy. Instead of trying to help, he pushed me out the door. I'm glad to not be there any more, and my happiness levels skyrocketed, but I'll be wary in the future of telling my boss that I'm unhappy/burnt out.
It sucks.
Of course it's hard to think straight when you're down like that, though.
The other major downside was the stress of being unemployed and having to find a new gig. But it all worked out in the end, so there's that.
Next time, I'll keep it to myself until I find another job.
If they are receptive and want to help awesome stay there/cont. to work hard for them.
If not go find somewhere else to work that respects you and your hard work!
But you do have to be firm. I hope you have some cash saved up that you can live on in case of sudden unemployment. Personally, I'd recommend a three-month trip abroad. I travel every few years and it's great for resetting my burnout clock.
https://www.joshmanders.com/on-startup-life
Before you do, think through what's causing the burnout. It could be the hours, that's where everyone goes first, but it could be a particular client, it could be the number of projects you're having to concurrently work, it could be your environment, it could something else completely, or it could be a combination of a bunch of those things.
Once you get sorta close to what's causing the burnout you can work to a solution that you can pitch your boss. But I wouldn't lead with it, I'd let him ask you "so what can we do" and then present what you're thinking.
Speaking as a boss, I really don't want people quitting for negative reasons. If they get some crazy offer that I can't match or they get to work on some cool tech that excites them, them's the breaks and it suck for me but I'm excited for them. But if I have people quitting for systemic reasons, man that's bad juju and I need to know so I can fix that shit before quitting becomes contagious and I lose a shop full of good people.
It's also been mentioned a couple times to see a counselor. I concur. You may be dealing with some anxiety and depression issues that a qualified doc can help you through.
Not coincidentally, when things aren't as silly-boomy as they are now, being a citizen looks a lot more like being on an H1, and manager behavior often adjusts to match. Fair warning.
I won't go into all of it, but one thing that has really helped is to have all the tasks in progress on a board where everyone can see them.
And only have one task in express lane and two non-express items at any time.
You haven't said whether the problem is too much work or competing priorities (or both). Whatever it is, this has helped me.
When the teams I worked with switched to kanban, they liked that they didn't have the end of scrum deadline, they also disliked that they didn't have the ten day deadline anymore as they felt the arbitrary deadline helped to push them a little.
That being said, kanban is better, it is more relaxed and feature feedback is faster than scrum.
Boiling frog syndrome in a way(1)
Not having to decide priorities is a massive relief; the product owners know they have to discuss priorities with each other and my team leader, not me.
(1) yeah I know it's not an accurate analogy.