HN Explorer

We should call out Snowdens leaks having nothing to do with domestic policy

4 points by NN88 ↗ HN
Look, there national interests and secrets that exist and at this point, we can sit aside and look all of Snowden's documents are only being used to shame the US' involvement in foreign intelligence matters.

I'm a huge fan of REAL POLITIK. I just am. I think that every other nation is, and that trying to sit on the sidelines while everyone else gets to play isn't exactly a good way to maintain that competitive edge.

Some of these discussions are important with respect to government interests and surveillance...but when it comes to foreign intelligence, to me, all bets are off.

Most of the reporting on Snowden only relate to NON-USA related documents or incidents.

So why can't we just point out the fact that his leaks have done more to hurt the US than anyone cares to admit. And even worse, EVERYONE does it.

10 comments

[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 34.9 ms ] thread
insoluble
Just because everyone does it doesn't make it okay. Also, for those seemingly few citizens who care about ethics, this information matters, even if it does hurt the US economy. There are more things in life than money. Saying that the bad secrets should be kept secret is like saying the holocaust should have been kept a secret. People grow from coming to terms with what's wrong, not from incessant denial. Often there is a short-term harm when coming out about the truth, but it has to be better in the long run. The reputation and dignity of future generations depends on it. Caring only about the short-term is selfish and short-sighted.

PS: When I say short-term here, I'm talking 10 to 20 years. A moral being thinks beyond his or her own lifespan.

bediger4000
this information matters, even if it does hurt the US economy - so there's a practical argument against the NSA's "collect everything" stratigery.

I like your argument by the way, and I disklike the parent's argument. The parent argues solely on "My Guys" vs "Their Guys" - there's nothing to distinguish good from bad, and "real politik" is just an excuse to behave immorally.

NN88
Morality doesn't extend when everyone doesn't honor the same rules.
drdeca
Morality is not based in consensus.
NN88
Its apparently not based on you wanting things to get done either
bediger4000
This is really the first time I've seen this position advocated explicitly. Can you elaborate? I'm not sure I understand how this fits in with anything other than a "Us: Good. Them: Bad" system of philosophy.

Although I rather like it. Can I ignore copyright and patent laws (which are often touted as having a moral basis) because the current US copyright and patent don't really fit things like independent invention?

drugsAreBad0001
Revelations that the Government spies on it's own citizens without oversight and probably while violating the 4th amendment doesn't have to do with domestic policy? I'm fairly positive that the argument "¯\_(ツ)_/¯ everyone does it" is WHOLLY INSUFFICIENT.

if you go to court for a speeding ticket, you know what happens when you claim "everyone was doing it"? You'll get laughed at by the judge.

Secondly, if you actually read the documents (and your comments seem to suggest you haven't), a great deal has to do with operations within US borders. Sounds an awful lot like "domestic" policy.

The ONLY reason they have hurt the US is because the US is acting immorally (that is, without morals) when it comes to both domestic & foreign intelligence.

There's a super simple way not to get hurt by leaks like this: STOP doing STUPID/ILLEGAL/IMMORAL shit.

There's a saying:

"You don't have to keep track of anything if you always tell the truth".

I can't remember who said it, but it's absolutely true.

Don't misunderstand me, I get the importance of intelligence work, but there's a right way and wrong way to do things, and for a long time now the NSA has been doing it wrong.

NN88
OK, so what NSA action do you support?

You keep using this word "immoral" yet i'm sure you'd rather the US to have the intelligence penetration of a banana republic.

drugsAreBad0001
What does that have to do with ANYTHING?

Your question was about Snowden leaks being relevant to domestic policy, which THEY WERE. Asked and answered.

My support or lack-thereof is of no consequence to the discussion