Ask HN: Any advice for an early startup employee who feels screwed and lonely?
2.5 years ago I joined a startup in SF as one of the very first employees. The offer was quite ridiculous, but after doing tons of work and becoming a key element I was able to negotiate again my compensation, and now I have north of 1% ISOs and 165k salary. My role is heavily technical, I built most of the core at the beginning and now I spend my day leading a few teams in the company (the company size is 35 people).
The main problem is that I feel this inner conflict that is deepening every day: I can witness that my productivity and my contribution to the company is huge, but I don't get any satisfaction out of it because I feel like my slice of the pie is way smaller than what I think I deserve.
Also, I feel very lonely in this matter, because all my coworkers are either more junior, less talented or less ambitious than me, and so for them the simple joy of working on interesting problems and getting an equity of 0.0x % is more than enough.
Some solutions I can think of might be:
1) Get a better title (VP of engineering): this is going to be absolutely hard. The founders are extremely stingy and so are the investors, and I've been repeatedly told that in order to aspire to a VP role for a company with our traction you need to have a previous curriculum, which obviously I don't have since this is my first startup experience (I'm 28).
2) Leave: this one would make sense if it wasn't for the ISOs. If I had to leave and exercise my vested share of options, I would have to pay an incredible amount of taxes (because our valuation increased) for a liquidation event that might happen years from now, or never.
3) Ask more money/equity: knowing myself, this would make me genuinely happy for about a year or so, and so might be reasonable. The problem is convincing the founders (and the investors) would be very draining, since I'm already the highest paid technical person.
Have you ever gone through something like this?
Thanks for reading.
53 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 115 ms ] threadTo me it sounds like that you have built the core platform for someone else, as an employee, and you have been rewarded for your work. Problem is: you are an employee and you are tired of that.
My feeling is that what you are really saying is that you would like to do your own thing, but the current situation is too economically stable and good to just give it up. How about keeping consistent with your current role and start working on a pet project? Might sound like an obvious advice but it does really make sense to me given your situation :)
Tactically, at your age and at that level of comp, I would stick it out for a few more years or until it became clear that the ISO's were not going to be worth anything, which ever came first. Jumping ship almost always seems more attractive that it turns out to be in actuality.
I would also recommend some sort of stoic philosophy. I am a Christian, but there are plenty of other options: zen, greek, etc. At the end of the day, none of this shit really matter that much, and, additionally, it's all pretty funny if you can get some mental space between yourself and the situation.
Good luck.
I highly recommend getting some of this advice to work for you. Having a different view on situation will definitely help "soften" the tough situation that you feel you are in.
In a similar vein, I have consider what my salary/job has provided me, it gave me opportunity to experience other cultures, provided my family the financial resources to be secure and look after their health. Sometimes, I feel that I am being greedy if I chase for more money.
Yes, one.
> How many rounds of investment have you guys taken on?
Seed and Series A. A new round might be coming soon.
> How many employees have an equal or higher title than you?
On the technical side, nobody (except the founder), but that will change soon as the engineering team is expanding.
> Is your role in technical and possibly business development integral enough where it would be really difficult to replace?
I like to think that it would be difficult enough, because of the know how acquired from having worked from day 1 and for the potential contribution that I can still give to the technical execution.
> Does the company have enough of a runway to figure things out if you left?
The company is well structured, so it will definitely survive, but that being said I'm without doubts the employee who would cause the biggest, albeit reparable, damage if he left.
Thanks
I've been a huge contributor to my current company, but as the first employee, even 3% of our stock feels stingy. I've easily contributed more than a high-equity founder (by everyone, including other cofounders', assessment). Also going through the "well, we can't pay you more because we can't afford it" rigmarole and not even getting the title consolation prize. Similarly feeling trapped by the whole mess.
I frankly think it was a poor decision for me to join the company, and I can't see myself taking another early employee position unless it's fully compensated (either much more equity than is traditional, or a market salary), which doesn't seem to be the norm, despite outsized risk.
I've found consulting to be a good outlet for ambition and way to make up for disappointing compensation. I also enjoy working on side projects with the intent of commercializing them.
If you're a solid contributor, consulting with defined engagements and clear compensation schemes seems a far better exchange of time for money than a low salary with options that may or may not be worth anything, ever.
If you want VP of Engineering and a pay raise, that's another story altogether... Sounds like you fought the pay battle already. I'd push for a better title.
The few comments posted before this one are valid and good advice. Stick it out, and keep pushing for the things you want. Good luck!
Anything worth having is worth fighting to have. To quote Bill Gates in the Simpson's episode, "I didn't get rich by writing a lot of checks." That's how the founders think. Getting what you want will be like taking a gazelle away from a hungry crocodile.
For solution 1: Titles are based on what you are doing, not what you did at some previous company. Go research typical roles and responsibilities at other companies. If you are doing the VP work already (lots of personnel and process work, in my experience), then show them that you meet the criteria and ask for the title. If you aren't (or they disagree), tell them that you want to get there and ask them for support. This might include classes, an executive coach, and/or mentorship from other executives. Or you may discover that you really want a different title (e.g., technical architect, or something higher up the Google ladder [1]), in which case ask for that.
For solution 2, if you haven't already paid for an accountant who specializes in this, please do.
For solution 3, you could also consider asking them for a one-off payment that would let you collect some/all of your stock in exchange for staying on another year. Then they don't have to mess with the salary structure, and they also don't have to give away more equity.
I'll add that 1+% of equity does not sound bad for somebody who has always collected a good paycheck and who does not have a senior title. Here are some resources that can help you compare:
http://avc.com/2010/11/employee-equity-how-much/
http://www.ackwire.com/jobs/engineering
https://angel.co/salaries
http://www.datarevelations.com/startup-cto-salary-qnd-equity...
https://www.wealthfront.com/tools/startup-salary-equity-comp...
I also saw a Riviera Partners report that put the average equity for A-round VPs of engineering at 1.4%.
[1] https://www.quora.com/As-of-2015-what-are-the-different-leve...
In reality, the only way to optimize for the best returns for your time is to start something yourself. There is __no__ other way.
Yeah. For me it wasn't worth it. I could make enough in other companies - where the opportunities for advancing were higher and where the work environment was nicer - to get what I wanted out of life. So, the money was more something that would have been nice to have if someone had offered it to me out of the blue, but of itself didn't/wouldn't result in any significant lasting increase in happiness by comparison to the alternatives.
I find useful in these cases to compare monthly_income / monthly_rent to get a relative index that is more comparable across countries.
That said, if you don't already you must learn that cost of living and the job market have a huge impact on compensation and can vary dramatically from region to region in a country. Different countries entirely are literally a world apart. If you do already know this your comment can only be taken as sour grapes.
Even giving you the benefit of the doubt concerning that still makes your comment a bit shitty. You have a skill that can be used not just remotely to get paid more, but as a basis for immigrating to a country that can pay you what you're worth. Yes, that's easier said than done but if you want something more you can get it with hard work and some elbow grease.
Only someone with an insane entitlement complex can fucking complain about 165k a year not being enough.
Keep on being the reason the rest of the world hates the US, you're doing a GREAT JOB.
Since you're not native to the US (apologies if you are), I think you should understand that the US is a big place. Even many of the states are huge. Even many huge cities like Los Angeles can have dramatically different cost of living expenses depending on the area. Someone living in Alabama, even in a nice city in a nice area is going to have a much lower cost of living than someone in the Los Angeles area. So making more than 90% of the country seems like it's saying a lot but it really isn't.
If this were simply a case of a normal employee at a mid-to-large corp it would be a completely different question. And even though this isn't the case his compensation and shares may be more than enough. I'm not arguing that it is or isn't.
I'm simply pointing out two things: 1) That even if this was a normal "established company hires an employee" relationship where a someone making 25K in a different country is comparing apples to oranges. 2) A very early employee can be the difference between success and failure for a startup. Even more so if there are two founders and only one is technical. They want to feel respected for their contribution and compensated accordingly. 165K plus 3% might be more than enough. But that compensation package has nothing to do with the rest of the country or the world. Period. It's another apples-to-oranges comparison.
The only possible violation is that my view is negative, but I think in each case it is at the minimum a reasonable and necessary opinion.
Are you mad because I think OP has an entitlement issue? Sorry, but it's a completely VALID viewpoint, and if you're silencing valid viewpoints, then your site has a bias problem.
If you want to discuss this further, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com.
I was hired, by a friend of a friend, to build a website. I was told "prototype", MVP, "ad supported".. "we'll find investors". As a contractor, fine, just pay me.
4 years later, after a customer threatened to sue for being defrauded, I finely wised up. I had been strung along with late payments for 4 years, the work kept piling up, I begged for help (it was just me doing all the technical work)... and the wife of the CEO let it slip they were doing 6 figures in revenue. I had gotten so obsessed with the work, that I fell into my OCD and did not pay attention to the business side of my "business".
4 years of near-burnout... and the guy who introduced me to this £$%£% finally decided to tell me he knew for a fact the CEO had a history of criminal behavior (i.e. fraud).
It was a harsh lesson in my blindspots. I learned a lot from a personal angle but it cost me 6 years of my life (to recover from the burnout as well). I got at the root of my OCD like behavior though. I was the same way - just a little more work, it'll all be over, the money, money, get all the invoices paid and quit... but it took a real crisis to slap me upside the head.
Not to say your founders are psychopaths, but look at it from their POV. You're just the hired help. It's not profitable to make you happy from a monetary perspective and you aren't taking advantage of the power you may not know you have (my biggest mistake).
If you're in business with someone, ruthlessness, however polite, is the only option (the CEO a year after I quit, -abandoned- his family and now is in a big legal battle with his wife who funded the company).
Ruthlessness is sometimes the only way to get respect from people, and I infer this may be part of your problem.
-- But I may be projecting my issues onto your situation --
So that is why I ask - what are the possible deeper psychological issues that are keeping you stuck? I know this inner conflict you speak of very well, and until I really understood the fundamental reasons why I put up with all the shit, I drove myself crazy.
hope this helps...
If getting more money/equity would only make you happy for another year, then the money and the equity isn't the real problem here.
It sounds to me like the real problem is that management doesn't respect you as much as you think you deserve. In particular, it would be quite reasonable for a 35-person company to have a VP of Engineering. If that isn't you, then it'll end up being someone else that they hire in above you.
My recommendation is to be open and honest about your frustration with your manager, and if you don't see a path to being happy with your job without a huge equity/pay bump, just move on. There isn't going to be any easy, obvious solution here.
Please don't forget the cost of living before assuming the OP is some privilegiado who is unhappy being filthy rich.
According to this (http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country...) a 1 bedroom apartment outside the city runs 31.5k a year thats about 20% of OPs salary. If he wanted a 3 bedroom in the city it would run 78k a year. By comparison someone living in Berlin will pay about 8k a year for rent of a 1 bedroom in the city.
So his 165k is roughly like someone earning 40k a year in Berlin. This isn't exact of course because of other factors such as utilities, food, etc, but comparing these costs to other locations it does look to be more expensive on these factors as well.
This is very far from exact. You're comparing a city with particularly high real estate costs to one with relatively low real estate costs (for the size of the city). Spending 20% of gross on rent is not particularly extreme, and factors like utilities, food, travel, and so on are not going to have remotely the multiplier that real estate does when comparing costs to Berlin.
Yes, 165k in SF is not like 165k in Berlin, but for a person without dependents it still leaves a lot of room for large savings or expensive luxuries. The median household income in SF is just $78k.
Lets take out 40% for taxes. This is a high number since the the whole number isn't taxed at 40%. That leaves you about 120k. Supposed the OP has a 1br apt so 120-32=88K.
So 88K > (40K-8k). So some who is making 165k is pretty well off even in SF.
My advice is to ask yourself some hard questions and then follow your gut feeling. If you are discontented you are not going to perform at your best, it will affect your life negatively, and this will only get worse with time. So ask yourself the hard questions. If nothing changes do you really want to stay there? If no, then what will have to change in order for you to stay and be happy? You know yourself, decide what it is that will make you happy and otherwise you would be happier leaving.
Remember its just a business transaction, they profit from your skills and labor and you profit from the money and titles and equity they give you in exchange for it. I have the feeling a lot of startups will come along with the stingy spiel, but they have to pay up for services like everyone else and if they aren't willing you move along, also equity and titles cost a startup only theoretically (if they ever liquidate which is a rare thing) so even stingy investors etc will probably be more willing to upgrade you here than in the salary department since that cost real money next month.
Good luck
Statistically, those ISOs won't be worth anything anyway and sticking around to see them vest may just mean you put off moving to on to a place where you are happier. One way to extract some value from that stock is to use it to negotiate a signing bonus at your next job.
You could try to demonstrate that you were a key value generator by doing a new startup without the other people who have a slice of this one :)
As to whether you deserve it or not, that's a tough one.
Have you considered that you may be looking at the issue from the wrong angle? You are unhappy with your work, and it may seem like compensation is the cause of that, but there's a good chance that it isn't. Getting a better title and more compensation may satisfy you for a while, but it's quite likely feel just the same after a little while.
Obviously I don't know anything about you or your work, but there are a few points that stood out to me:
- It seems like the company management does not respect you as much as you'd like them to and this makes you angry.
- You say that you are the most senior/experienced engineer in the company, so you're missing a chance to learn from someone else. Personally this has been a major incentive for me to stick with a company/team.
Then there's the question of what you actually want to be doing in the next 2-5 years and how your current job helps you towards that goal. Have you ever had that conversation with the founders? As someone else mentioned, being an employee is a business transaction. Money is part of what you get, but the perhaps more important part is how the company can help you achieve your professional goals. It seems like it really isn't in your case. Could this be the reason for why you feel demotivated?
I suspect that it has everything to do with meaning/purpose.
Maybe you need to ditch the day job (regardless of consequence), move somewhere cheap, and make something you care about.
Some of us aren’t meant to be employees.