I hate feeling completely powerless in these kinds of situations. All I can do short of flying to Syria and taking up arms against such tyranny is upvoting this post. Absolutely pathetic.
Yeah, honestly, its shit like this other countries should go to war over. The United States was founded on free speech, not just having it, but spreading that ideal everywhere. FOSS is free speech.
We dropped bombs on Iraq for non-existant WMDs, and invaded Afghanistan over a CIA agent that was living in Pakistan, yet we won't do anything to an out of control government bent on destroying what little society it has left and is a legitimate threat to national security.
We could use vague language like harbors terrorists or funds terrorists.
More realistically, though, I perceive ISIS as a greater threat to US national security. As an example, the TSA is already getting more ornery with airport security in response to the Russian airplane downed over Egypt for which ISIS has taken responsibility. And ISIS only claims responsibility as revenge against Russian intervention in Syria, intervention on behalf of the government of Syria.
If Syria is a threat, it's a lot less pressing than the threat posed by the militants fighting Syria.
Syria is a very much a threat to US interests, because it has a regime hostile to us, friendly to Russia and Iran, and it borders the Mediterranean Sea, giving competitors to the US that could be friendly to Turkey (read: Russia via Georgia) a trade and supply route to the Mediterranean. Because of this, the economics that are favorable to Turkey, in a situation where Syria "falls" to Russia, create interests that conflict with those of the US, particularly during war.
In other words, from geopolitical and war strategy standpoints, Syria is currently one of the more important countries in the world, to the US.
Ex country. Syria is a territory now. The only ways it could resemble some form of country - lets say they are unacceptable from moral view. The winning faction - no matter which - will surely go on a rampage of power consolidation with ethnic and religious cleansing in the mix :( So we have two harrowing option - yet another autocrat committing atrocities and generating suffering. Or warring camps that will commit atrocities and generate suffering.
It would be a lot easier to argue against execution if we weren't in the habit of remotely executing people without trial. Presumably the Syrians have designated him an 'unlawful combatant' or some such pretext.
Also, we are not going to war in Syria. The Russian government has been quite clear that they are allies of Assad.
"Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and in the degeneracy of manners and of morals engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare." -- James Madison
I'm also curious how war is compatible with "spreading the ideal of free speech". If anything, war is usually associated with the curtailing of free speech, and is when sedition is most actively persecuted.
Maybe part of the reason we won't, (and shouldn't), do anything about Assad is because of the outcomes of our last military "fixes". What we left behind is a lot worse than what was there originally.
The US has been directly[1], and indirectly[2] providing weapons to Syrian terrorist groups, including Al Nusra (Their local branch of Al Qaeda - with similar goals to what they pursued in Iraq over the past decade) for two years, now.
The State Department has never been skittish about getting into bed with violent islamic fundamentalists, and doesn't care about the success (Or the lack thereof) of the last round of military "fixes." It also doesn't seem to recall how this situation played out in Afghanistan... Circa 1980.
I'm sure Saddam kill thousands of Bassel Khartabil like figures during his time in power. By this logic you should have supported that war as well. I'm not quite sure what you mean by Afghanistan? I'm pretty sure we invaded because of 9/11. If we went to war solely because of things like this we would be fighting a lot more of them.
I think you are too emotionally close to the issue because of the specific subject matter this activist fought for. No, I would not condone a war just for stuff like this, I don't want American's to die anymore then I want Bassel Khartabil to die.
American allies in the Middle East are Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Israel. We don't care about human rights in the Middle East; we prop up horrible administrations there and shield them indefinitely. Why you think elite concerns like free speech and open source software should be a special case is beyond me.
I would say that Saudi Arabia is the odd one, and Israel is, given its circumstances, on far less low moral ground, for what that's worth. That is not to say that Israel does not do a great number of deplorable things, but certainly if Israel swapped weapons with Hamas then every Jew in Israel would be dead within a day.
Hey, no one is without powers. Ours are very limited in situations like that, but amnesty international usually provides a set of honoraries that can be addressed in situations like that, as well as in depth information about the case, in this case: https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde24/2603/2015/en/
Of course, writing someone is useless most of the time, but within the powers we all have is also the power to create awareness for a situation of massive injustice.
Millions of people being aware of Khartabil's situation doesn't mean anything if he's executed. Preventing that is the goal. It cannot be accomplished without force, or threat of force, or some other form of pressure that only world governments have the capacity to apply. And we are not any of those.
We (the people) should probably be at least one of the governments.
I don't know how these decisions are actually made, but I would think there'd be at least one government with one military team that would willingly rescue him.
If anyone is in the military, what's the feeling when these kinds of things happen? It seems like there should be brave people volunteering for those kinds of rescue missions where someone really needs their help.
I imagine they feel similarly powerless. Sending brave people in there would necessarily force a military confrontation with Russia, which I think everyone would agree is a very bad idea.
This thread has been linked from a front page thread, sorry to reply so late.
According to Amnesty the letter writing campaign matters, because the government knows they can't hide what they are doing (and even though Assad is especially horrible, his regime must try to hide this, otherwise why sentence him in secret?) when sacks of mail starts to flow in from the entire world.
I'm probably going to get downvoted a lot for this, but this is probably the exact feeling people on the other side get that causes them to go to Syria and take up arms and join isil.
Edit: To be 100% clear, I'm by no means sympathizing. Rather, I believe that understanding an adversary's motivations can help resolve a conflict.
How does that logic go? "I don't like tyranny so I'm going to join a group of murderers and rapists who are best known for their beheading videos".
I know nothing about the complex situation in Syria and Iraq but I always guessed that ISIL in Syria was more about Iraqi post-Sunni Awakening fallout after being locked out of governing by al-Maliki. Like if you look at a map of ISIL in Iraq you see the area they have is the area that was hostile to Iraqi Occupation in 2007 and the leader of ISIL is Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, an Iraqi who was an insurgent from Fallujah. They just took advantage of the problems in Syria and used that as a spring board into Iraq.
The reason the fight against ISIL is going so slow in Iraq is the same reason it was such a tough fight in 2007. They're fighting the Iraqis who live there, it's not a Syrian invasion force.
So why would someone from Damascus be joining ISIL over this problem?
>"I don't like tyranny so I'm going to join a group of murderers and rapists who are best known for their beheading videos".
Compared to those who are now known for bombing a hospital? You can easily paint any side as the total bad guy when you look at just how much abuse does happen. It doesn't much matter who is worst when everyone is so dirty that you can get enough dirt to validate any feelings one has.
For example, consider the problem with dancing boys in Afghanistan and how the Taliban fought against it while the US protected the practice. Defining the 'bad guy' becomes a bit more difficult, no?
Does ISIS have a lot of redeeming qualities that we're overlooking? If not, I'm not sure I can agree with the suggestion that its just a matter of framing whether ISIS is the villian or the United States. Say what you will about the U.S., but one would be hard pressed to say that it does no good around the world and only does things like bomb hospitals. But I'm not sure the same can be said of ISIS, unfortunately.
That said, I agree with omarish in this respect: my own feeling of helplessness upon reading this article is probably akin in some ways to the feeling that drives people to take up arms with ISIS in Syria and Iraq. The important distinction, though, is that the source of the outrage that drives ISIS fighters to act is precisely the opposite of what one ought to be outraged about. (Or, at any rate, pretty much the opposite of what actually outrages me.)
they do have. A lot. For Islamic true believers. The same way like Inquisition, with all the tortures and burning at stake, was for Christians. Blind devotion to religion may do that to you.
>that we're overlooking?
of course we don't see these redeeming qualities. Or more precisely - we do see these qualities, only we see them as condemning where is they see exactly the same qualities as redeeming.
I don't know any muslims personally, but I doubt that a majority of muslims, at least in the western world, believe ISIS has redeeming qualities. Is that true? Like what are those qualities that peaceful practitioners of Islam can redeem all those rapes and murders? Have you seen the Vice documentaries of kurdish fighting ISIS? ISIS are insane. They murder everyone. Even their own members: non-arabic speaking ISIS converts are used for suicide attacks. Tell me what redeems this behavior, wait I already know, nothing redeems this. Absolutely nothing in the mind of anyone who abhors violence and wishes for peace. You know, sane people.
Even other terrorists say ISIS goes to far. Hamas has spoken out against ISIS!
>Does ISIS have a lot of redeeming qualities that we're overlooking?
We likely won't know without talking to the people who make the choice to join them. For the Taliban case, I only learned of this recently because it was so largely ignored. In a few decades who knows what we may know about ISIS that we don't currently know.
What I do know is so often pictures have been painted as black and white which are in reality many shades of grade and that due to this I am hesitant to believe this case really in black and white.
Actually ISIL and a poster are on the same side - they are both fighting/want to fight Asad. At this time moderate opposition (if there was any) is gone and opponents of Asad are way worse than him.
I think, in this case, bribing will work better than taking arms in Syria. The problem is finding all the people you need to bribe and engage in a conversation.
How much money have you got? Maybe the HN community can scrape together a few million to pay a private military contractor to go in and "bail him out"?
Does anyone know what specifically he was accused of doing?
If he had ties with Western intelligence his detention is understandable (I don't support death penalty in this case, nor Assad, and it would be cool if they released the guy to the West, I'm only saying it's understandable if he was active in opposition spheres). Just because a person is a "hacker" doesn't mean they weren't involved in trying to violently overturn Assad's government.
He blogged about people being arrested by state security during the protests.
It's not clear that he has been formally acussed of anything in particular beyond "treason". Detailed formal charges may be an unessecary formality in Syria.
I wish the USA would get rid of the death penalty. Completely barbaric, cruel and unusual. I still think we have the high road on our sides in situations like this.
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[ 6.0 ms ] story [ 107 ms ] threadUpdate: The least we can do:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/get-involved/take-action-now/syria...
We dropped bombs on Iraq for non-existant WMDs, and invaded Afghanistan over a CIA agent that was living in Pakistan, yet we won't do anything to an out of control government bent on destroying what little society it has left and is a legitimate threat to national security.
Fuck that.
More realistically, though, I perceive ISIS as a greater threat to US national security. As an example, the TSA is already getting more ornery with airport security in response to the Russian airplane downed over Egypt for which ISIS has taken responsibility. And ISIS only claims responsibility as revenge against Russian intervention in Syria, intervention on behalf of the government of Syria.
If Syria is a threat, it's a lot less pressing than the threat posed by the militants fighting Syria.
In other words, from geopolitical and war strategy standpoints, Syria is currently one of the more important countries in the world, to the US.
Also, we are not going to war in Syria. The Russian government has been quite clear that they are allies of Assad.
I'm also curious how war is compatible with "spreading the ideal of free speech". If anything, war is usually associated with the curtailing of free speech, and is when sedition is most actively persecuted.
Probably the same way the US spread the ideal of freedom to the Middle East.
The State Department has never been skittish about getting into bed with violent islamic fundamentalists, and doesn't care about the success (Or the lack thereof) of the last round of military "fixes." It also doesn't seem to recall how this situation played out in Afghanistan... Circa 1980.
[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/cia-b...
[2] http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/09/25/443577215/...
I think you are too emotionally close to the issue because of the specific subject matter this activist fought for. No, I would not condone a war just for stuff like this, I don't want American's to die anymore then I want Bassel Khartabil to die.
Of course, writing someone is useless most of the time, but within the powers we all have is also the power to create awareness for a situation of massive injustice.
I don't know how these decisions are actually made, but I would think there'd be at least one government with one military team that would willingly rescue him.
If anyone is in the military, what's the feeling when these kinds of things happen? It seems like there should be brave people volunteering for those kinds of rescue missions where someone really needs their help.
According to Amnesty the letter writing campaign matters, because the government knows they can't hide what they are doing (and even though Assad is especially horrible, his regime must try to hide this, otherwise why sentence him in secret?) when sacks of mail starts to flow in from the entire world.
Edit: To be 100% clear, I'm by no means sympathizing. Rather, I believe that understanding an adversary's motivations can help resolve a conflict.
I know nothing about the complex situation in Syria and Iraq but I always guessed that ISIL in Syria was more about Iraqi post-Sunni Awakening fallout after being locked out of governing by al-Maliki. Like if you look at a map of ISIL in Iraq you see the area they have is the area that was hostile to Iraqi Occupation in 2007 and the leader of ISIL is Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, an Iraqi who was an insurgent from Fallujah. They just took advantage of the problems in Syria and used that as a spring board into Iraq.
The reason the fight against ISIL is going so slow in Iraq is the same reason it was such a tough fight in 2007. They're fighting the Iraqis who live there, it's not a Syrian invasion force.
So why would someone from Damascus be joining ISIL over this problem?
https://kanvaasi.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/bors151112-1500...
Compared to those who are now known for bombing a hospital? You can easily paint any side as the total bad guy when you look at just how much abuse does happen. It doesn't much matter who is worst when everyone is so dirty that you can get enough dirt to validate any feelings one has.
For example, consider the problem with dancing boys in Afghanistan and how the Taliban fought against it while the US protected the practice. Defining the 'bad guy' becomes a bit more difficult, no?
That said, I agree with omarish in this respect: my own feeling of helplessness upon reading this article is probably akin in some ways to the feeling that drives people to take up arms with ISIS in Syria and Iraq. The important distinction, though, is that the source of the outrage that drives ISIS fighters to act is precisely the opposite of what one ought to be outraged about. (Or, at any rate, pretty much the opposite of what actually outrages me.)
they do have. A lot. For Islamic true believers. The same way like Inquisition, with all the tortures and burning at stake, was for Christians. Blind devotion to religion may do that to you.
>that we're overlooking?
of course we don't see these redeeming qualities. Or more precisely - we do see these qualities, only we see them as condemning where is they see exactly the same qualities as redeeming.
I don't know any muslims personally, but I doubt that a majority of muslims, at least in the western world, believe ISIS has redeeming qualities. Is that true? Like what are those qualities that peaceful practitioners of Islam can redeem all those rapes and murders? Have you seen the Vice documentaries of kurdish fighting ISIS? ISIS are insane. They murder everyone. Even their own members: non-arabic speaking ISIS converts are used for suicide attacks. Tell me what redeems this behavior, wait I already know, nothing redeems this. Absolutely nothing in the mind of anyone who abhors violence and wishes for peace. You know, sane people.
Even other terrorists say ISIS goes to far. Hamas has spoken out against ISIS!
We likely won't know without talking to the people who make the choice to join them. For the Taliban case, I only learned of this recently because it was so largely ignored. In a few decades who knows what we may know about ISIS that we don't currently know.
What I do know is so often pictures have been painted as black and white which are in reality many shades of grade and that due to this I am hesitant to believe this case really in black and white.
You're confusing conflict with something else.
meh... why not? everyone else seems to be doing it.
If he had ties with Western intelligence his detention is understandable (I don't support death penalty in this case, nor Assad, and it would be cool if they released the guy to the West, I'm only saying it's understandable if he was active in opposition spheres). Just because a person is a "hacker" doesn't mean they weren't involved in trying to violently overturn Assad's government.
It's not clear that he has been formally acussed of anything in particular beyond "treason". Detailed formal charges may be an unessecary formality in Syria.
https://www.eff.org/offline/bassel-khartabil
But I followed the links and sent an email to Syrian ambassador for the UN appealing for Khartabil's release.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/get-involved/take-action-now/syria...