Ask HN: How to form deep friendships later in life?

145 points by thepredestrian ↗ HN
About 7 years ago I arrived in Canada from Southeast Asia to pursue a degree in Computer Science. I graduated and landed a decent job right after in the US, and have been working here since.

I have made many efforts to go out and meet new people, but unfortunately at this age it gets harder and harder to form deep and meaningful connections or friendships. Everyone already has their own childhood friends, family, support group that they have built themselves around their whole lives and grew up with. To them, I am just another 'colleague' or 'fellow member of X and Y group', and I know our friendships will never go past a certain level.

I walk past bars and cafes on Friday nights and I see groups of young adults in merry conversation and laughter. They are most probably friends since childhood / high school and I know I will never be a part of a group like that, because it is just too hard to break into a clique that already has formed a common connection amongst themselves, and the 'making friends' phase is over.

How do I overcome this sense of loneliness and dismality?

85 comments

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Friendships form when you repeatedly interact with the same person. This is not likely to happen at a random bar, but it most definitely can happen in a cooking class, when volunteering, playing music with people in a band, routinely getting together every Thursday night with others in your local makerspace and so on. Especially if you have to actually work together: perhaps offer your help to a local cause you support, perhaps a CoderDojo?

Also, FWIW, very few adults still know their childhood and high school friends and most people gradually lose the friends they make in college. It's just what happens, and while it will be harder for you to form new friendships, we all have to work at it. I don't know anybody who'd say "alright, I now have all the friends I desire, I hereby declare a ban on new friendships."

Maybe not an explicit 'I hereby declare a ban on all friendships', but in my experience, I find it hard to draw close to someone simply by virtue of the fact that we did not form our friendship early in life. No matter how much I hang out with someone, his childhood friends whom he grew up with will always take 'precedence' - I will never be that 'close friend who people can be comfortable sharing their personal lives with'.
Read the book by Dale Carnegie (http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/06...). Joining events on http://www.meetup.com/ can be helpful too.
I've red it. It's made of behavioral patterns for sellers mostly, I think you will not get any real friend following the teachings of that book.

Meetup events are a much better way.

When you find yourself following the advice in the book without trying or thinking about it is when you have met potential friends, I think.
I tried the advice in the book, it's fine for superficial connections with people only. It mostly tells you to never contradict people to be more "likeable". It's OK for a first contact with people for sure, but not for establishing a real connection.
To the OP, if you do not have time to read or if you are not sure whether it is worth reading, you can read the summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influen...

First impression is very important when you are meeting anyone. One of the most important takeaways from the book is "be genuinely interested in other people".

Social groups are good way of meeting new friends, tech meetups, karate, tennis..
Upvoting this, because I wish I knew.
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If you work, for example, 60 hours a week somewhere, at worst sitting in front of a computer, and on a rare times of freedom you ask hourself that question, it's probably not going to work.

You probably have to change the priorities in your life: work as the support not as the primary meaning of life. That also means actively investing time (a lot) in non-work activities. That's what's hard to do, since we acquire the habbits through the decades. Even worse, whichever company you work for will probably not like that the time of your physical presence decreases.

It's possible. But you'll have to actively pursue it and change.

I think the best way to meet new people when you feel like an outsider is to find other outsiders. By that I mean people who are also trying to fit in and meet make connections. Find things that you like doing that are welcoming to people who may not necessarily be in a group/family etc.

When it comes to making friends you also have to decide what types of friendships/relationships you want. Some people need only one or two close friends or a partner, and outside of their other hobbies, they are fulfilled. On the other hand, others prefer to have large numbers of acquaintances and be a part of a few social circles. There's overlap between the two types, but knowing what you want from your relationships will help you position yourself better to find what it is you want.

I'm 31 now, and I think there is always the possibility of meeting new people. Things happen in life, and people's situations and perspective's change. The friends that suit us at one stage of life may not suit us at another stage of life, so naturally we seek out other people. A partner that continually decides to grow and change with you is the exception to this, but we're always moving from stage to stage.

- Meet people through work. You have to kinda treat this a bit like dating, and make real effort - when you meet someone you get on with, you'll need to invite them for coffee etc. Do this sooner rather than later. Go to social events that are loosely related to your work.

- Activity groups. Meetup.com, Couchsurfing, Nightclasses. Charities and volunteering.

- Become a regular at a bar or a cafe. Go there frequently, even if on your own to read a paper at the weekend or one evening. Get to know the staff, as that provides a bridge to knowing other regulars.

- When you do go out for any reason, be open to talking to people. Get into the habit of it, and if you encounter good conversations be sure to get the person's twitter/facebook/phone/email, just look for an excuse to send them something that you're both interested in. Then if you get a good chat going, look for an opportunity to meet up.

- Explore the friendship networks of the friends you already have. When you go to events with existing friends, make sure you get to know the people they bring along. There's a much higher chance of liking a friend-of-a-friend rather than a random stranger.

- Send social signals about the kind of person you are. e.g. wearing a SpaceX T-Shirt will definitely attract other space geeks for chat in random bars/cafes.

- More philosophically: remember that whilst you might not meet good friends if you go to the cafe this Saturday, you certainly won't meet them if you don't socialise at all. And it takes time - for every night or day you socialise, you probably won't meet anyone interesting about 80% of the time.

To the first point, I think this might be controversial... but try to avoid people you work with directly. It seems like it's better at first glance - b/c you interact with them more - but the reality is there are whole layers of professionalism and competing interests between you and them which actually kinda preclude you from building a system of mutual trust.

Maybe "trust" isn't quite the right word, but I'm struggling to find a better one. The difference between an acquaintance and a friend is that you can implicitly know they will help you and that you will help them. This involves being willing to do thing while expecting nothing in return. In a work setting that usually leads to bitterness

But that's just like my opinion man...

This seems right to me in general, although there has been exceptions in my case. I think for better or worse alcohol can be the social catalyst that knocks down those barriers. But yes in general there are competing interests and people have their guards up. I think ex-colleagues can become good friends more easily.
It's pretty situation dependant. Mostly depends on the corporate structure, culture and your positions relative to each other. I've been blessed to work at small companies where most of the people I rub shoulders with aren't in the same professional 'track' as me, so there's no real reason for anyone to use a friendship to jockey for position or something.
> Meet people through work.

yes but not only. It is a dangerous trap to rely on your colleagues for a social life. First they'll always have to be your colleagues, second they're probably the same kind of people as you (where's the diversity), ...

> You have to kinda treat this a bit like dating

Completely agree with that. And as I said in another comment, looking for friends is kind of looking for a girlfriend.

> Couchsurfing

That's actually a good idea, they regularly meet up. I've heard bad things about reddit meet up so I've never tried but why not?

> Become a regular at a bar or a cafe.

I don't really understand this advice but why not. Become part of your neighborhood is maybe what you wanted to say?

> When you go to events with existing friends, make sure you get to know the people they bring along

That's super important. Because you tend to stick with your friends where you have the opportunity of making other good friends as well

> There's a much higher chance of liking a friend-of-a-friend rather than a random stranger.

Same for dating

> Send social signals about the kind of person you are

Odd. I would rather not and listen to what interesting things people have to say. You don't always have an obvious common thing.

> or every night or day you socialise, you probably won't meet anyone interesting about 80% of the time.

A friend of mine used to say (he was talking about girls but it works as well). If you meet a person and she's not the right one, don't discard her, the right one might still be one of her friends.

The idea can be generalized as: people are not always the perfect fit, but you can still hang out with them and meet some cool people in the process.

> First they'll always have to be your colleagues

Not after you or they left the job.

> second they're probably the same kind of people as you

The diversity is huge already within departments and limitless across.

> Completely agree with that. And as I said in another comment, looking for friends is kind of looking for a girlfriend.

Actually ... it's not at all like that. At least my dating behaviour is for good reasons very different from dealing with guys.

>> Couchsurfing > That's actually a good idea, they regularly meet up.

I have plenty of CS experience and from what I can say - you meet plenty of awesome people through CS - but the relationship-dynamics are exceptionally casual and noncommittal.

>> There's a much higher chance of liking a friend-of-a-friend rather than a random stranger. > Same for dating

Actually - even though this statement seems plausible - I highly doubt it is correct in practice and it isn't as far as I am concerned. It seems rather that people tend to trust more easily and deal more openly with friends of friends.

> If you meet a person and she's not the right one, don't discard her,

To think of "discarding" in that context is stupid in the first place. You can and should discard aholes - anybody else it's just a very dynamic process of distance and closeness which comes to a natural halt at some point.

> The idea can be generalized as: people are not always the perfect fit, but you can still hang out with them and meet some cool people in the process.

Fairly egocentric way of dealing with people - I suppose it's possible to enjoy time with people for what they are without aiming at capitalizing on their relations.

This is good advice for meeting people, but acquaintances don't automatically become friends. For that, you need to spend time with them in diverse contexts. The more, the better.

Someone you only see at work is a coworker. Someone you only drink with is a drinking buddy. If you work together, go out drinking on weekends, and play racquetball every Thursday night, the line starts getting blurred.

I like the analogy between G+ circles and friendship. A person can become your friend if he is in more than one your circle. Let's say you have a circle called "work" and you invite somebody from it to play football together. If he accepts, the transition happens.

A person that you work with is a coworker, a person that you play football regularly with is just a teammate, but combined they become a friend.

Hackerspaces, (Team) Sports clubs, Join a band/music societies. I think it is easiest when you find a place where people gather that share your passions. How pleasant are people that become enthusiastic when you tell them about yourself? Building Friendships is really building, you won't pick them up somewhere so you need repeated interaction.

I have childhood friends, they feel little enthusiasm when I tell them about the 434 MHz transmitter I use on a Raspberry Pi to switch my lights. The never even booted Linux. I feel very alive when among people with my interests: Open source software, hardware tinkering. My employer (a worker assignment company (is that English?)) facilitates this, I highly enjoy it. I think I could build some friendships there, but I don't need it at the moment (young kid at home). That said, I sometimes feel I should drop some old friends in favor of new ones... Maybe later ;)

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People in the US have to move fairly often for graduate school, jobs, etc. While some subset of the groups you're seeing are childhood friends, a large number of the people you're seeing have probably not been friends for all that long in the lifetime scheme of things!

Creating new friendships is difficult and quite similar to dating. It sounds like you're already part of a few groups, that's great! A good next step would be to approach interesting people w/in that group on an individual level and see if you have friend chemistry. This blog has a lot of great advice for the type of person most likely to end up on HN. http://captainawkward.com/2011/12/19/question-153-how-do-i-m...

Best of luck

So I just read down to the bottom waiting to see the answer - common interests - but didn't.

It's that easy. Find something you love doing, and you'll inevitably find and meet like-minded people. You'll naturally gravitate to one or more in that community and the seeds for friendship awesomeness are yours to nourish and grow.

Personal experience has yielded 20+ year friendships by skydiving, scuba diving, radio control, and martial arts.

Joining a Dojo (any kind of group practicing some kind of Martial Art, not necessarily a Japanese one) is a good idea - in my experience the sense of camaraderie is a good way to make friends outside of training hours. Also, there are many different martial arts, more or less ritualized, more or less strenuous, so there is a good chance you may find something that appeals to your own preferences.
Speaking of Dojo. Why not mentor at your local Coder Dojo? (Or start one) I've found it a great way to meet people and have made some good friends with other mentors and the parents of the ninjas (kids).

https://coderdojo.com/

Friendships are formed most easily when people work together over a period of time on a shared mission.

Find something that you want to do & go do it with other like-minded people. Talk to them about more than just the thing you are doing together, put the effort into getting to know them. Eventually some of them will become friends.

This is why you hear all the advice to 'join a club', 'join a sports team', 'go to church', 'volunteer somewhere' etc etc. But just joining up isn’t enough - you still have to put the effort in to make those personal connections.

It’s a long, slow process: we don’t realise how long it takes when we’re young because the experiences of youth (school, college) automatically create the conditions in which friendships can grow and flourish. Once we’re adults, those conditions no longer automatically happen & we have to put the effort in to making them happen ourselves.

In the meantime, actually doing something that you believe is worthwhile alongside other people is a great salve for loneliness, even if they aren’t 'friends' at that point in time.

Most of the comments here are about how to make friendships, not how to make "deep friendships".

I have found the best way to work on a mission together. Go out to town looking for a nice girl(or guy) to date. Work on some project together. Go on a traveling adventure.

Where exactly do you find people to do such stuff? Everyone is busy with their own work and lives
Hobbies man. What you lack in childhood friends you can earn through activities pals. At least half of my friends I met them at some activity or hobby. People use to bond when they share a common interest. Take some artisan classes, cooking sessions, art tours, or simply enlist yourself in an amateur sports club. There are also a gazillion of adventure clubs, from hiking to mountaineering to the very extremes, targeted to all ages and physical condition. And even if you’re strictly a geek and you find none of the above attractive you could try joining a pen and paper old fashioned D&D club.
And if a geek, there are also maker groups and tech meetups, in fact meetups of any kind
Come to Japan and hang out with me? :-) It's super tough making friends in new cultures and I'm working remotely so I don't meet anyone at work either.

I think the key is that deep friendships take a long time to build. Also, because your personality is already mostly formed, it is hard to meet people that you fit with. When you are very young, it's easy to change yourself to fit the group of people you are with.

My biggest advice is not to rush it. Take every opportunity to spend time with other people, but if you don't "click", don't try to force it. When I first came to Japan I spent a lot of time with people who spoke English. It was something we had in common. In the end it was the only thing we had in common. I had some pretty bad experiences because I tried to hang on to friendships that really weren't good for me or the other person.

As others have mentioned, hobbies are a good way to go. Either find groups to do your hobbies with, or find some new hobbies that will help you meet new people.

One thing I have done in the past year (since I work from home, and often at night) is to wander around my neighbourhood and chat with the retired people where I live. They are lonely too :-).

I'm in Japan too! Are you based in Tokyo?
I'm actually in Shizuoka (in Makinohara). But I come to Tokyo occasionally. Feel free to give me a shout. My profile name is the same as my gmail account ;-)
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1. go out there, activities, meetup.com, volunteering... 2. when you meet people, try to see them again: ask them out, organize something... 3. be a nice/fun guy to be around

The weird thing is that most advice you will find in seduction apply in looking for friends

Get a hobby. Join a club. Mine hobby is riding a motorcycle. I've seriously met people and made friends through reddit by PMing them saying "Hey, we live pretty close, wanna ride?".

Making friends and building relationships, like everything else, requires work. You won't get it for free, except at school/work where you're basically forced to be around the same people all the time.

As an expat, it's harder than in a country where you master unspoken social rules. I know this from experience.

I believe your best bet is to meet other people lost in translation, and especially expats. Ideally not all from your native country: often, such circles (people from country X trying to make themselves an enjoyable life in country Y) tend to encourage their members to bitch on country Y, and that's not the path to happiness.

Internet should help you find people. If you have hobbies, it helps having a common ground to build upon.

About kids, lovers and family: it's quite difficult to share a social life between single people, engaged people and people with kids. If the bond preexists a divergence of lifestyles, it can survive, but each of these lifestyles come with hard-to-reconcile constraints.

Finally, if you can pass the IQ test, Mensa is a nice community of too-smart-for-their-own-good people, looking for meaningful and intellectually engaging bonds.

I'm in the same situation, I came to France recently after I graduated from Algeria to work in some IT company, and I find it really hard to make friends. specially in France where people doesn't really welcome foreigners, due to many reasons, the events of Paris will make it even harder, but sometime I wonder if its me who is not sociable or the people around me who are less interested in making new connections.
Everyone struggles with this at some point, so don't worry.

- People rightfully prefer to be around interesting people. Some people are intrinsically interesting, but everyone can convey "interesting" by being genuinely interested in some aspect of the other person's life. Sometimes this can lead to getting invited to a future event, like an album release party because of a shared DJing interest for example, especially if the interest is niche or rare.

- Pick a friend from work or elsewhere that you'd like to get to know better. Take them out to lunch or coffee. Do the same next week and gradually strengthen your current network. Be sociable, and don't be afraid to have (appropriately) personal conversations or to ask friends for help or advice on something, even if you don't think you need it. They might have excellent advice or know someone who would be able to give you excellent advice.

- Do things on your own. Decide that you're going to a concert|club|museum|movie|<your scene> on Saturday, and during the days leading up to whatever it is you've decided to do, text friends about it. Say something along the lines of, "Hey, we're going to see so and so at such and such. Let me know if you're interested!" If no one can make it, you'll still have fun if you picked the right place, and there's a fair chance at least one person might be able to join.

- Consciously shape positive, confident thinking. Figure out what you like about yourself that you can be confident about! Nothing good can come from beliefs like "I know our friendships will never go past a certain level" and "the 'making friends' phase is over".

New people find each other every day. They usually form around a certain common ground or interest, be it religious, Buddhist (1) or even Freemasons if religion is not your thing (2). Good luck.

(1) http://www.buddhisttemple.ca (2) http://www.grandlodge.on.ca

(Edit: deleted 'this will probably get down-voted part of comment)

Just so you know you, are being downvoted because you said "this will be downvoted," which is frowned upon. This community is actually quite sympathetic to buddhist ideas.
Why thank you, I wasn't aware of that. I'll adjust my comment.
Were you successful making such friendships earlier in life?
This raises a good point. If he wasn't good at making such relationships earlier in life, he may be a bit challenged. I think part of his problem is also that he's looking for deep friendships. They don't come easily.

You don't have to be someone's soul mate in order to enjoy time with them. Those things will come naturally (Or not - but at least you did go out and socialize.)

To me deep friendships are the distilled product of having many shallow ones. One does not go out to make deep friendships, one goes out to make friends or acquaintances and some of those contacts will deepen over time.