"For me, depression is caused by a lack of productivity".
It is beyond me that such a statement can be expressed seriously. I strongly suggest the author look beyond "I'm not working hard enough" as the key reason for his mental illness.
They might mean to say that it's worsened when they're not busy with something. Actively working on a task that one finds rewarding can definitely help with depression.
Sure, but from reading the article it seems that social isolation as a matter of lifestyle is the elephant in the room. If he has to be held accountable through an app, it would suggest that there's no people present throughout the day to hold him accountable.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but it's less absurd than assuming we just need a whip when we're down. This isn't an unemployed person feeling like they're not contributing. It's more like: "If I can just never be unproductive, I'll be happy"...
My first thought after reading that he's a freelance web developer was "get an office job". I know from experience that working alone for an extended period of time can get you down easily.
I worked various full time office jobs for two years and now I work part time remotely and the amount of social interaction during the work day is pretty much the same (which is to say almost zero).
There's just no way I can do my job writing software with constant interruptions; it takes too much focus.
Other people won't hold you accountable unless you let them, which the author touches upon. It sounds like most of the value of the app for him is that the results are communicated to a support network.
It's not about having people around to hold you accountable. I have dealt with severe depression for about 30 years. You get to be very good at 'hiding' your emotional state from people. What a lot of people here seem to be missing is that lack of productivity is a warning signal for him to share with his support network.
His app doesn't increase or help with his productivity, it tracks it.
I could use his app directly as is. I have a very supportive network, who really help me when I am in the bottom of a cycle. This app could really help me as I only reach out when it gets bad enough that I feel my life is in danger.
And I am surrounded by people all the time. At work (I teach) and at home (I have 2 small kids & a perfect partner). Now my partner is starting to learn the warning signs.
With respect, I think we should take the patient point of view more seriously than our own (us not having examined the patient or more damningly, not having any training in psychiatry). Lack of productivity can on occasion lead to a feeling of worthlessness which can exacerbate depression.
It's true, I'm not a psychiatrist and don't know him. It's also obvious that achieving things helps us feel better. I'm trying to suggest that, instead of focusing on productivity as the final solution and trying to hack it into his life, perhaps look at the factors causing his difficulties. For example, the fact that he works alone, or does a sedentary job -- both of which are massive risk factors for depression.
We're stuck with his articulation, but I can see how that would seem to be the case. Personally, I see lack of productivity as a symptom of depression, but it's not for no reason that there's a saying, "the devil makes work for idle hands."
As someone that can sympathize with the author on a number of levels, this is a tremendously insensitive comment - I wouldn't expect to see such glibness with regard to someone's mental health posted on this site of all places.
First, note that he said "for me" - you don't and can't know what makes him tick better than he does, full stop.
Second, I can tell you with complete certainty that realizing that you're not getting shit done is a legitimate initiator (both to me, and apparently the author) of a spiraling cascade of negative thoughts that lead to feeling useless and terrible - and once that mood has been achieved, pulling yourself out of it takes either massive amounts of willpower (a limited thing) or a mental reset of some kind (sleep, chemicals, really deep meditation).
It sucks. It really, really, sucks. Please think more carefully before remarking in this way in the future.
--
All that said. I kind of had an idea like this a while ago[1], but never thought to mate it with a system that actually pings friends for help! Quite clever, and more importantly, it appears to work.
Your Web App sounds interesting. Though I wonder if it is just helping to manage the symptons rather than addressing the source of the depression. Procrastination may be a sympton and not the cause of depression.
Unfortunately, for many people mental illness and depression is a result of very real chemical imbalances in the brain. Also, for other people letting go of a toxic relationship or unhappy marriage miraculously cures depression.
I believe you misread or failed to read the rest of the paragraph. The author makes it clear this isn't just work.
I feel similar to the author's statement. Coding is my thing. In general, I really like most of my work. When I have writer's (coder's) block, it really, really, sucks. Right now, for instance, I'm sitting on some dynamite info and just need to polish up a proof of concept to show of some fun stuff. I even have clients 100% ready to pay for things if I can show POC. Yet several of these things have sitting around, somewhat planned or partially started, for months. That feeds back to itself and makes me feel worse.
And again, this doesn't mean just work.. Some of these things are things I'd do for no compensation at all, but purely for the fun of them. Being burned out and not wanting to do the stuff I want to do, thinking the one passion I'm competent at is slipping away - that's depressing and scary. And some of the stuff I want to do, like family related things, they suffer too, and those aren't even software-related, let alone work.
This is really cool and a great idea! Do you know any psychiatrists who could help you come up with a really good list of questions to ask and things to track? I'm just a medical student but I could probably put you in touch with a good one or help you come up with questions.
Basically my thoughts are that we have some reliable screening tools for depression that have been evaluated for specificity and sensitivity... maybe questions from those could be incorporated into this. I don't think anyone has done frequent tracking of responses like this could offer.
Maybe you could even add cognitive behavioral therapy exercises?
Agreed - this is a great idea; I would try and keep it simple though. Just have an app that recorded psychological health indicators with the diagnosis and treatment left out.
There are so many approaches in psychology that with settling one particular would narrow the audience too much.
Coincidentally, just the other day I was looking in the PlayStore for apps that dispense small 1-4 sentence quanta of mood-altering advice based on the user's reported state of mind. I couldn't find any. I'm considering writing something simple of this nature. Question: does such a thing exist and if not, is it a worthwhile exercise at all?
Look at ginger.io -- their cognitive behavior therapy has been shown to be statistically significant. It's what you're looking for either now or in a future version of their app.
This is a really interesting case study. I'd encourage you to continue to document it and share it widely. The fact that you aren't trying to do it all through the app, but that the app is part of the support network is very cool. Thanks for sharing this!
Guess he doesn't know about ginger.io -- it does all this and much more about intelligently using your phone's sensors to know when you're behavior patterns are off.
Thanks for the article! Our team (Iodine) is actually doing something similar specifically for people taking antidepressants, so it's cool to see that one of your top priorities is taking your meds on time every day.
One of the main reasons we created our app, Start, is because a lot of people aren't getting enough support or info (whether from their doctors, friends or online) about how they're doing. It's super important for people to feel empowered and have the right tools to get better. Our app has daily pill reminders and check-ins to help people track their mood and how their (custom) goals and issues are holding up. Then every 2 weeks they get a progress report so they can see how they've been doing.
We're inspired by your idea and would love feedback on our app as well – you can check it out here: www.iodine.com/start. You can reach us directly at start@iodine.com :)
I like this approach, and am also relieved it's part of an overall strategy that included professional help.
Depression has caused serious damage to my relationships -- it causes me to experience apathy towards those I care about, irritability, aggression and self-harm. I would throw myself into my work and constantly shifting hobbies, basically anything where I didn't have the time to think about other things.
These symptoms, apparently, are fairly common in men who are experiencing depression and one of the reasons it can go undiagnosed.
The author's approach is brilliant in that it exists at a layer above the productivity tools and techniques themselves, to check if they're being employed effectively (if at all).
I can also relate to his experience. Momentum is everything.
Getting into a productive state is hard, and once you start losing momentum, the deceleration tends to snowball. Next thing you know, you have no momentum, and depression is there waiting to pick you apart like a vulture. Becoming productive again is now harder because you're depressed from not being productive. It's a vicious cycle that feeds into itself.
I used to use Moodscope to record daily subjective ratings in some key areas, like whether I felt "strong" or "productive" or "powerless" or "scared".
The process of entering the data about myself each day actually made me significantly more depressed, because it was like a constant reminder of how depressed I was, and how the external circumstances that caused my depression weren't changing (even when I was doing all of the things I could do from my end, like exercise, see friends, listen to music, and so on).
So we should keep in mind that this sort of thing isn't a panacea. In some cases, at least, it could make things worse rather than better.
Same experience here; while attempting to isolate the factors that made for low days in order to avoid them, I instead experienced a significant increase in low days-- probably because I had to actually assess my mood.
A neutral mood, open to becoming either "good" or "bad" if not closely inspected, would invariably be categorized as "bad", and once labelled, remain that way for the rest of the day (or into the next day/sleep if recorded at night).
I've found stepping back every month or so to reflect on positive things is helpful, but doing anything with too much granularity has only encouraged self depreciating and neurotic thoughts.
Just ignore me if you were joking, but do I have a serious question about exactly this. I've considered doing something like this for myself. Not an app, but I thought I might wrap my credit card in a bit of cardboard that says "Wait! Think! What are you doing?" as a speed bump against my compulsive spending.
Does this actually work for you? Do you open the app and it says "Don't drink, fuckface." and you're like "oh, right, OK. I won't." Or do you just blow right past it? I used to work in a shop with gruesome safety posters on the wall at work but after a couple of weeks, I stopped noticing them. I figure this would turn out to be something like that.
It was a useful reminder, not to avoid online distraction, but to address the issues (primarily stress) that made me distracted in the first place. Similar tactics have helped me abstain from drinking excessively.
I imagine this sort of thing would work for any compulsive behaviour—interrupt the symptom, but mainly so that you’re more mindful of fixing the cause.
I have built something similar, but don't have it configured to do quite the same things, although it certainly could. It's more a generic platform that these kinds of things could happen if you configured them to, so it could work for individuals as well as companies, for example. But I don't have a support structure in place that will come to my rescue when i'm feeling blue. It's just me, my emotions and my behavior.
A lot of people find benefit in quantification; I do not. While I have my house wired with doorbells that correlate to todos in my app so it knows when i have/have not done something; its really my own psychology or philosophy that has the biggest impact on when I do something. Everything else is more for management.
"I do know the solution. And many of you healthy thinkers will be way ahead of me on this. In its simplest form the solution is to do stuff. Do the basic stuff like getting up, cleaned and dressed promptly at a sensible time, keeping on top of my laundry etc...
The flip side of feeling awful when I don’t do these things is that I feel incredible when I do."
If the author feels incredible when he accomplishes a task -- any task at all -- I wonder as to the severity of his depression.
In addition, according to the DSM-5 -- a manual used to diagnose mental health conditions -- you may have other symptoms with major depression. Those symptoms might include:
* Fatigue or loss of energy almost every day
* Feelings of worthlessness or guilt almost every day
* Impaired concentration, indecisiveness
* Insomnia or hypersomnia (excessive sleeping) almost every day
* Markedly diminished interest or pleasure in almost all activities nearly every day (called anhedonia, this symptom can be indicated by reports from significant others)
* Restlessness or feeling slowed down
* Recurring thoughts of death or suicide
* Significant weight loss or gain (a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month)
No, depression does not mean you're a recluse who does nothing with your life. It means you struggle to feel happy or pleasure. It means you view every fault and failing as more proof that you're worthless.
Please stop spreading dangerous FUD. Anyone who feels that they my have depression, or any mood disorder, should see a doctor, regardless of if they feel it's "minor".
There is no stigma in having a mood disorder or seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist. Please stop acting as if there is one.
> "No, depression does not mean you're a recluse who does nothing with your life."
i never implied anything of the sort.
> "There is no stigma in having a mood disorder or seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist. Please stop acting as if there is one."
sorry, but i think you may have accidentally responded to the wrong post all together. i have no other way to reconcile how completely irrelevant your response to my comment is. without getting into the details, i'm even somewhat offended by the assumptions you've made about my beliefs and personal experiences.
the list of symptoms you posted even support my original statement.
> especially considering a classic symptom of depression is the inability to accomplish these tasks.
You are perpetuating an incorrect and dangerous view of depression by implying it only exists if you cannot function entirely.
> > > "No, depression does not mean you're a recluse who does nothing with your life."
> i never implied anything of the sort.
How so? "classic symptom of depression is the inability to accomplish these tasks." seems to imply that depression means unable to meet with friends or accomplish any task.
> without getting into the details, i'm even somewhat offended by the assumptions you've made about my beliefs and personal experiences.
i simply posit that there exists a severity of depression at which waking up, getting dressed, and getting in the shower are out of question. do you disagree?
furthermore, i suggest there exists a severity of depression that cannot be managed or mitigated by using an app to get things done. do you disagree?
in no way did i "imply" getting dressed and depression are mutually exclusive. i didn't imply anything at all, for that matter. the connotations are your own. if i can directly address your assumption: just because you don't exhibit a symptom does not mean you don't have [some thing]. i never suggested otherwise.
> i simply posit that there exists a severity of depression at which waking up, getting dressed, and getting in the shower are out of question. do you disagree?
Yes, I disagree that you only posited a severe case of depression. "especially considering a classic symptom of depression is the inability to accomplish these tasks" appears to be to be a very clear assertion that the author didn't have depression because they were capable of functioning at all.
If that isn't what you meant, then you left much to be desired in your writing.
One thing I would like to point out is that his app isn't for getting things done. It's for letting his support network know that he might need help, but is unable to directly ask for it.
Brief moments of happiness do not erase the problems, thoughts, and feelings brought on by depression.
Moreover, it seems very short-sighted and ill-informed to say that because what the author has isn't crippling and they isn't in a corner crying 100% of the time that their struggle is inconsequential or isn't really depression (I'm not a doctor; I don't know the author; I can't make that diagnosis either).
If, and a big if, in a couple months you start to lose faith that you will never be able to make meaningful change to the "core" of what is leading to your depression, here is an alternative thought:
The you who you think you are "un-depressing" isn't really real. You may be largely, if not wholly, one giant movement of habit. And one key factor of habits is they don't really stand being reasoned with by your conscious mind. If you explore this and come to find it true, then the game becomes how to change habits that are not super constructive (ones you associate with depression). The game is won when you (aka your giant movement of habit) does the thing without your conscious mind ever coming into play. That's the key.
Sounds like you are having a tough time getting out of bed feeling motivated, this was my kryptonite too. Here is a superb strategy that worked for me, and works because it gets your thinking/conscious mind out of the path to success, as just described above.
Jesus. I got over a clinical depression which lasted half a decade... I can't begin to describe how offensively stupid this idea is. To get over the dark days, you need to solve yourself, emerge victorious over your inner demon. The solution is not "to do stuff". The solution is to get a grip.
You are not the author. Psychology is as unique as a fingerprint, and what works for you does not necessarily work for someone else. Your solution of "get a grip" is broad stroked and insensitive to the nuances of psychology, motivation and coping.
He could just as well maintain a diet of various herbal roots. Worse, the idea derives from his flaw of procrastinating while doing nothing to solve it.
> you need to solve yourself, emerge victorious over
> your inner demon
I can't begin to describe how offensively stupid this idea is. To get over the dark days, you need to fix the chemical imbalance in your head. The solution is not "to solve yourself". The solution is to take appropriate medication.
A component of the solution might be to take appropriate medication. I tried getting over the shit stew with drugs and no intentional internal change, first with prescribed drugs, then with, uh, other sources. It's so easy to believe that it's completely beyond your control, that it's a neurochemical problem that you cannot solve until the state of the system changes.
Meditate on this one for a bit:
youtube.com/watch?v=lGwKXzH6tZY
peteretep, of course it isn't generally applicable to everyone's. It is an illustrative point: you have a lot more control over your head than you'd like to admit.
Most doctors, even those working with mental health, don't believe the chemical imbalance stuff. That's why recommended first line treatment for mild to moderate depression is a talking therapy.
Really? That's not what any of the doctors I've or people I've dealt with have said or act like. Even my psychologist (who can't rx) was fairly insistent that without medication there was only so far she could go and refusal to take it was a problem. Then there's the fact that a lot of people end up on anti-depressants and feel much better and are happy with the result.)
(Though I agree that mental meds are fairly shitty overall. Particularly anti-depressants and anti-psychotics. And they're really heavy treatments with potentially horrible side effects, so a talking therapy makes sense as it won't, for instance, cause your skin to die and fall off unlike some meds. Docs seem sorta-OK prescribing amphetamines in combination, but vastly more hesitant to even consider opiate treatment for depression.)
The doctors I work with prescribe cognitive behavioral therapy as the first hand treatment for depression and antidepressant when therapy is ineffective (which isn't all that common).
One of the reasons that antidepressant are so widespread is that doctors are usually in charge of treatment and seldom perform therapy but are very used to prescribing medication.
Also the fact that millions of people are depressed makes it hard to give everyone access to therapy.
In my opinion it is much harder to treat a patient on antidepressant since they respond worse to treatment then a depressed patient who is not on medication.
Depression is a devastating disease but it is astounding how effective therapy can be for a lot of patients.
I regularly meet patients who are very depressed when we first meet who manage to overcome their depression in a couple of weeks.
Physical activity is also very good at treating depression.
If everyone would exercise the demand for therapists would be much lower.
One mistake that many depressed patients make is holding a strong view that they are a person who suffers from depression.
This keeps the patient from realising that depression is a condition caused by their interaction with the environment and that it isn't personal.
I think one problem with the article is that it seems that the person still views herself in this way instead of fully realising whatever it is that is needed for keeping him/her from becoming depressed again.
There's a difference between saying "medication works" and saying "medication works by correcting a chemical imbalance".
> Docs seem sorta-OK prescribing amphetamines in combination, but vastly more hesitant to even consider opiate treatment for depression.)
Ketamine is currently experimental for major depression and anhedonia.
Opiates are currently the med most used in death by suicide in the UK, (#1 opiates, #4 opiate and paracetamol combination) so it seems reasonable to be cautious about prescribing opiates to a group at increased risk of suicide.
Wow. I would think that you'd be a little more understanding. His solution is not just to do stuff. It's to get a little help when the dark days hit and he's unable to reach out for help. I'm glad you were able to man up and get a grip.
I think you could have phrased this differently but there is something there. Depression is a complex and multi-faceted challenge that can have many underlying causes and is subject to a number of psychological forces. The author takes the approach of managing the superficial symptoms whereby depression makes people non-functional, but there are probably underlying causes that will reemerge in various ways down the line. Managing only the loss of productivity without addressing underlying concerns has a high likelihood of just masking the problem. They might find themselves a year or two down the line with some accomplishments but still nagging feelings of self doubt and failure.
This is great, and I am very happy he also makes it very clear that anyone suffering depression (or any other mental health issue) should see a professional.
The stigma associated with getting professional mental health help can't go away fast enough.
Ever heard of BoosterBuddy? It's is a free app designed to help teens and young adults improve their mental health.
While I can't comment on the efficacy of using apps for mental health, the idea is currently being done by the Vancouver Island Health Authority, here in British Columbia. The development was done through engaging with youth and health professionals.
While this isn't targeted at adults, something similar may work!
If you'd like to read yogic prospective on depression [0] is a good start. [1] is a book on the same by the article's author Om Swami.
However, let me warn you that this will venture you into concepts of human body you have likely not heard of and which has not been studied extensively by modern medical science. However, it's heavily researched and applied at least for thousands of years in India etc.
>>>
Depression is a state of mind. It is not a physical ailment; it is not a neurological disorder and it is rarely a malfunctioning of the brain. It is strictly a condition of the mind. And mind pervades your whole body and beyond. It is for this reason that pacification of the mind calms the whole body just like its restlessness upsets the whole system. Severity of depression can be ascertained from the symptoms of the patient. While I am using the term patient, that truly is an oxymoron. There really cannot be a “patient” for depression because it is not a “disease” that one can suffer from. It is simply a mismatch of the colliding psychic imprints (vāsanā) also known tendencies of the mind. Mind cannot malfunction for the true nature of mind is pure bliss (ānanda) and beyond all subjective characterizations and dualities (dvanda).
....
A pertinent question: what causes depression? Depression is a state of mind. It originates in the causal body. The mind has become a victim of its own latent tendencies. It can happen from curbing your desires or an unfulfilling life, both of which are caused by ignorance of the conditioned mind. A lot of people lead an unfulfilling life; some choose to ignore the voice of the soul while many others drown it in material pursuits. But, one day it catches up.
....
If you are not taking anti-depressants currently, half the job is already done. Please do not start taking such pills. They are soporific substances designed to artificially pacify your brain creating the illusion of a calm mind. Gradually, their dosage needs increasing as your brain gets used to it.
To not only completely get rid of depression but feel fitter than you have ever been, you need to cover all three aspects: body, consciousness, and the soul.
<<<<
[EDIT: of course, if you're able to undertake therapy without the help of medication, you should definitely do it! I'm talking about severe depression below.]
I really wish I could downvote you more than once, just because of this sentence. It's downright irresponsible to say such things.
While depression may be a psychological problem in most cases, it is not always so. There are genuine neurological reasons for depression, and trying to "heal" these without the help of medication won't work. Moreover, with strong depression, it's impossible to even start any kind of non-pharmaceutical treatment. Really, people who say "don't take pills, just meditate/sing psalms/exercise/or something" don't know what they're talking about. The whole point of depression is that the patient has no desire to get better, he just won't meditate, no matter what you say. Or he will try it once if you're lucky and then get back to doing whatever his depression makes him do (you're lucky if it's simply doing nothing instead of trying to commit suicide).
Medication - ideally - makes a depressed person able to start recovering. It makes depression symptoms lessen to some extent, hopefully enough for a patient to be able to work with a psychologist.
Depression is a very severe illness. It's not "feeling sad from time to time". It's an illness which leads to death in some cases! It's a very serious condition, and saying otherwise, saying it's easy to fight against it if you know some "techniques" or other is actively harming people with this condition. Please stop doing that.
>> I even suggest that depression is probably a trick condition, a highly profitable one, created by the pharmaceutical companies.
In the second, when he is selling his book, he says:
>> I’m not suggesting that depression is merely a mood disorder. Instead, it’s a very real condition and, like any other ailment, it can require medical attention and treatment.
Doesn't check out. "Trick condition" or "real condition"? He is confused.
Edit: He also says in the second: "Anti-depressants work for a large number of patients whereas they make not an iota of difference to many others." More confusion.
It sounds like what the author is looking for is accountability. It was difficult, but I eventually found a reliable person on Craigslist to call me daily to check-in on my progress towards my goals and habits.
I had a lot of success with this and eventually started a business to make it easier for other people to sign up for daily personal check-in calls:
This is a neat project. How much did you sell the company for and how much money were you making prior to the sale? I recognise that both those questions could be invasive. A ballpark-figure is fine and I won't be offended if you decide not to answer.
It sounds like what the author is looking for is accountability. It was difficult, but I eventually found a reliable person on Craigslist to call me daily to check-in on my progress towards my goals and habits.
I had a lot of success with this and eventually started a business to make it easier for other people to sign up for daily personal check-in calls:
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[ 0.40 ms ] story [ 167 ms ] threadIt is beyond me that such a statement can be expressed seriously. I strongly suggest the author look beyond "I'm not working hard enough" as the key reason for his mental illness.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but it's less absurd than assuming we just need a whip when we're down. This isn't an unemployed person feeling like they're not contributing. It's more like: "If I can just never be unproductive, I'll be happy"...
There's just no way I can do my job writing software with constant interruptions; it takes too much focus.
His app doesn't increase or help with his productivity, it tracks it.
I could use his app directly as is. I have a very supportive network, who really help me when I am in the bottom of a cycle. This app could really help me as I only reach out when it gets bad enough that I feel my life is in danger.
And I am surrounded by people all the time. At work (I teach) and at home (I have 2 small kids & a perfect partner). Now my partner is starting to learn the warning signs.
But I am very good at hiding them...
First, note that he said "for me" - you don't and can't know what makes him tick better than he does, full stop.
Second, I can tell you with complete certainty that realizing that you're not getting shit done is a legitimate initiator (both to me, and apparently the author) of a spiraling cascade of negative thoughts that lead to feeling useless and terrible - and once that mood has been achieved, pulling yourself out of it takes either massive amounts of willpower (a limited thing) or a mental reset of some kind (sleep, chemicals, really deep meditation).
It sucks. It really, really, sucks. Please think more carefully before remarking in this way in the future.
--
All that said. I kind of had an idea like this a while ago[1], but never thought to mate it with a system that actually pings friends for help! Quite clever, and more importantly, it appears to work.
[1]: https://tkware.info/tsas/
I feel similar to the author's statement. Coding is my thing. In general, I really like most of my work. When I have writer's (coder's) block, it really, really, sucks. Right now, for instance, I'm sitting on some dynamite info and just need to polish up a proof of concept to show of some fun stuff. I even have clients 100% ready to pay for things if I can show POC. Yet several of these things have sitting around, somewhat planned or partially started, for months. That feeds back to itself and makes me feel worse.
And again, this doesn't mean just work.. Some of these things are things I'd do for no compensation at all, but purely for the fun of them. Being burned out and not wanting to do the stuff I want to do, thinking the one passion I'm competent at is slipping away - that's depressing and scary. And some of the stuff I want to do, like family related things, they suffer too, and those aren't even software-related, let alone work.
Basically my thoughts are that we have some reliable screening tools for depression that have been evaluated for specificity and sensitivity... maybe questions from those could be incorporated into this. I don't think anyone has done frequent tracking of responses like this could offer.
Maybe you could even add cognitive behavioral therapy exercises?
There are so many approaches in psychology that with settling one particular would narrow the audience too much.
One of the main reasons we created our app, Start, is because a lot of people aren't getting enough support or info (whether from their doctors, friends or online) about how they're doing. It's super important for people to feel empowered and have the right tools to get better. Our app has daily pill reminders and check-ins to help people track their mood and how their (custom) goals and issues are holding up. Then every 2 weeks they get a progress report so they can see how they've been doing.
We're inspired by your idea and would love feedback on our app as well – you can check it out here: www.iodine.com/start. You can reach us directly at start@iodine.com :)
Depression has caused serious damage to my relationships -- it causes me to experience apathy towards those I care about, irritability, aggression and self-harm. I would throw myself into my work and constantly shifting hobbies, basically anything where I didn't have the time to think about other things.
These symptoms, apparently, are fairly common in men who are experiencing depression and one of the reasons it can go undiagnosed.
I think that part is the most key to success for this type of strategy.
I can also relate to his experience. Momentum is everything.
Getting into a productive state is hard, and once you start losing momentum, the deceleration tends to snowball. Next thing you know, you have no momentum, and depression is there waiting to pick you apart like a vulture. Becoming productive again is now harder because you're depressed from not being productive. It's a vicious cycle that feeds into itself.
The process of entering the data about myself each day actually made me significantly more depressed, because it was like a constant reminder of how depressed I was, and how the external circumstances that caused my depression weren't changing (even when I was doing all of the things I could do from my end, like exercise, see friends, listen to music, and so on).
So we should keep in mind that this sort of thing isn't a panacea. In some cases, at least, it could make things worse rather than better.
A neutral mood, open to becoming either "good" or "bad" if not closely inspected, would invariably be categorized as "bad", and once labelled, remain that way for the rest of the day (or into the next day/sleep if recorded at night).
I've found stepping back every month or so to reflect on positive things is helpful, but doing anything with too much granularity has only encouraged self depreciating and neurotic thoughts.
Does this actually work for you? Do you open the app and it says "Don't drink, fuckface." and you're like "oh, right, OK. I won't." Or do you just blow right past it? I used to work in a shop with gruesome safety posters on the wall at work but after a couple of weeks, I stopped noticing them. I figure this would turn out to be something like that.
It was a useful reminder, not to avoid online distraction, but to address the issues (primarily stress) that made me distracted in the first place. Similar tactics have helped me abstain from drinking excessively.
I imagine this sort of thing would work for any compulsive behaviour—interrupt the symptom, but mainly so that you’re more mindful of fixing the cause.
A lot of people find benefit in quantification; I do not. While I have my house wired with doorbells that correlate to todos in my app so it knows when i have/have not done something; its really my own psychology or philosophy that has the biggest impact on when I do something. Everything else is more for management.
The flip side of feeling awful when I don’t do these things is that I feel incredible when I do."
If the author feels incredible when he accomplishes a task -- any task at all -- I wonder as to the severity of his depression.
Neat concept for the app though.
Please stop spreading dangerous FUD. Anyone who feels that they my have depression, or any mood disorder, should see a doctor, regardless of if they feel it's "minor".
There is no stigma in having a mood disorder or seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist. Please stop acting as if there is one.
i never implied anything of the sort.
> "There is no stigma in having a mood disorder or seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist. Please stop acting as if there is one."
sorry, but i think you may have accidentally responded to the wrong post all together. i have no other way to reconcile how completely irrelevant your response to my comment is. without getting into the details, i'm even somewhat offended by the assumptions you've made about my beliefs and personal experiences.
the list of symptoms you posted even support my original statement.
> especially considering a classic symptom of depression is the inability to accomplish these tasks.
You are perpetuating an incorrect and dangerous view of depression by implying it only exists if you cannot function entirely.
> > > "No, depression does not mean you're a recluse who does nothing with your life."
> i never implied anything of the sort.
How so? "classic symptom of depression is the inability to accomplish these tasks." seems to imply that depression means unable to meet with friends or accomplish any task.
> without getting into the details, i'm even somewhat offended by the assumptions you've made about my beliefs and personal experiences.
ditto.
furthermore, i suggest there exists a severity of depression that cannot be managed or mitigated by using an app to get things done. do you disagree?
in no way did i "imply" getting dressed and depression are mutually exclusive. i didn't imply anything at all, for that matter. the connotations are your own. if i can directly address your assumption: just because you don't exhibit a symptom does not mean you don't have [some thing]. i never suggested otherwise.
Yes, I disagree that you only posited a severe case of depression. "especially considering a classic symptom of depression is the inability to accomplish these tasks" appears to be to be a very clear assertion that the author didn't have depression because they were capable of functioning at all.
If that isn't what you meant, then you left much to be desired in your writing.
Moreover, it seems very short-sighted and ill-informed to say that because what the author has isn't crippling and they isn't in a corner crying 100% of the time that their struggle is inconsequential or isn't really depression (I'm not a doctor; I don't know the author; I can't make that diagnosis either).
Might want to add a "Burns Depression Checklist" questionnaire to your daily polling, it's a single number that will reflect mood, easier for charting and trend analysis: http://healingheartscc.com/docs/first_steps/FS_DepressionQui...
If, and a big if, in a couple months you start to lose faith that you will never be able to make meaningful change to the "core" of what is leading to your depression, here is an alternative thought:
The you who you think you are "un-depressing" isn't really real. You may be largely, if not wholly, one giant movement of habit. And one key factor of habits is they don't really stand being reasoned with by your conscious mind. If you explore this and come to find it true, then the game becomes how to change habits that are not super constructive (ones you associate with depression). The game is won when you (aka your giant movement of habit) does the thing without your conscious mind ever coming into play. That's the key.
Sounds like you are having a tough time getting out of bed feeling motivated, this was my kryptonite too. Here is a superb strategy that worked for me, and works because it gets your thinking/conscious mind out of the path to success, as just described above.
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2006/04/how-to-get-up-right...
Hope helps!
You may wish to check that out. Extensive reading on Yogic prospective of depression, involving body, consciousness and soul.
Or, ya know, your mileage may vary.
Meditate on this one for a bit: youtube.com/watch?v=lGwKXzH6tZY
(Though I agree that mental meds are fairly shitty overall. Particularly anti-depressants and anti-psychotics. And they're really heavy treatments with potentially horrible side effects, so a talking therapy makes sense as it won't, for instance, cause your skin to die and fall off unlike some meds. Docs seem sorta-OK prescribing amphetamines in combination, but vastly more hesitant to even consider opiate treatment for depression.)
The doctors I work with prescribe cognitive behavioral therapy as the first hand treatment for depression and antidepressant when therapy is ineffective (which isn't all that common).
One of the reasons that antidepressant are so widespread is that doctors are usually in charge of treatment and seldom perform therapy but are very used to prescribing medication.
Also the fact that millions of people are depressed makes it hard to give everyone access to therapy.
In my opinion it is much harder to treat a patient on antidepressant since they respond worse to treatment then a depressed patient who is not on medication.
Depression is a devastating disease but it is astounding how effective therapy can be for a lot of patients.
I regularly meet patients who are very depressed when we first meet who manage to overcome their depression in a couple of weeks.
Physical activity is also very good at treating depression.
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17437199.2015.102...
If everyone would exercise the demand for therapists would be much lower.
One mistake that many depressed patients make is holding a strong view that they are a person who suffers from depression.
This keeps the patient from realising that depression is a condition caused by their interaction with the environment and that it isn't personal.
I think one problem with the article is that it seems that the person still views herself in this way instead of fully realising whatever it is that is needed for keeping him/her from becoming depressed again.
I wonder, do opiates have any positive effect on depression? Short- or long-term? What about physical dependency? What about psychological addiction?
> Docs seem sorta-OK prescribing amphetamines in combination, but vastly more hesitant to even consider opiate treatment for depression.)
Ketamine is currently experimental for major depression and anhedonia.
Opiates are currently the med most used in death by suicide in the UK, (#1 opiates, #4 opiate and paracetamol combination) so it seems reasonable to be cautious about prescribing opiates to a group at increased risk of suicide.
Not everyone has your perfect will power.
I'd recommend "Feeling Good", a book by David M. Burns (site here: http://feelinggood.com/)
It's amazing how some very productive people lead inner lives of desperation and pain due to bad self-talk and reinforcement of negative feelings.
The stigma associated with getting professional mental health help can't go away fast enough.
While I can't comment on the efficacy of using apps for mental health, the idea is currently being done by the Vancouver Island Health Authority, here in British Columbia. The development was done through engaging with youth and health professionals.
While this isn't targeted at adults, something similar may work!
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/depression/bas...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder
Please don't guess at remembering something you read on buzzfeed.
However, let me warn you that this will venture you into concepts of human body you have likely not heard of and which has not been studied extensively by modern medical science. However, it's heavily researched and applied at least for thousands of years in India etc.
>>> Depression is a state of mind. It is not a physical ailment; it is not a neurological disorder and it is rarely a malfunctioning of the brain. It is strictly a condition of the mind. And mind pervades your whole body and beyond. It is for this reason that pacification of the mind calms the whole body just like its restlessness upsets the whole system. Severity of depression can be ascertained from the symptoms of the patient. While I am using the term patient, that truly is an oxymoron. There really cannot be a “patient” for depression because it is not a “disease” that one can suffer from. It is simply a mismatch of the colliding psychic imprints (vāsanā) also known tendencies of the mind. Mind cannot malfunction for the true nature of mind is pure bliss (ānanda) and beyond all subjective characterizations and dualities (dvanda).
....
A pertinent question: what causes depression? Depression is a state of mind. It originates in the causal body. The mind has become a victim of its own latent tendencies. It can happen from curbing your desires or an unfulfilling life, both of which are caused by ignorance of the conditioned mind. A lot of people lead an unfulfilling life; some choose to ignore the voice of the soul while many others drown it in material pursuits. But, one day it catches up.
....
If you are not taking anti-depressants currently, half the job is already done. Please do not start taking such pills. They are soporific substances designed to artificially pacify your brain creating the illusion of a calm mind. Gradually, their dosage needs increasing as your brain gets used to it.
To not only completely get rid of depression but feel fitter than you have ever been, you need to cover all three aspects: body, consciousness, and the soul. <<<<
0: http://omswami.com/2011/10/depression-definition-cause-and-c... 1: http://omswami.com/2015/08/when-all-is-not-well.html
[EDIT: of course, if you're able to undertake therapy without the help of medication, you should definitely do it! I'm talking about severe depression below.]
I really wish I could downvote you more than once, just because of this sentence. It's downright irresponsible to say such things.
While depression may be a psychological problem in most cases, it is not always so. There are genuine neurological reasons for depression, and trying to "heal" these without the help of medication won't work. Moreover, with strong depression, it's impossible to even start any kind of non-pharmaceutical treatment. Really, people who say "don't take pills, just meditate/sing psalms/exercise/or something" don't know what they're talking about. The whole point of depression is that the patient has no desire to get better, he just won't meditate, no matter what you say. Or he will try it once if you're lucky and then get back to doing whatever his depression makes him do (you're lucky if it's simply doing nothing instead of trying to commit suicide).
Medication - ideally - makes a depressed person able to start recovering. It makes depression symptoms lessen to some extent, hopefully enough for a patient to be able to work with a psychologist.
Depression is a very severe illness. It's not "feeling sad from time to time". It's an illness which leads to death in some cases! It's a very serious condition, and saying otherwise, saying it's easy to fight against it if you know some "techniques" or other is actively harming people with this condition. Please stop doing that.
>> I even suggest that depression is probably a trick condition, a highly profitable one, created by the pharmaceutical companies.
In the second, when he is selling his book, he says:
>> I’m not suggesting that depression is merely a mood disorder. Instead, it’s a very real condition and, like any other ailment, it can require medical attention and treatment.
Doesn't check out. "Trick condition" or "real condition"? He is confused.
Edit: He also says in the second: "Anti-depressants work for a large number of patients whereas they make not an iota of difference to many others." More confusion.
I had a lot of success with this and eventually started a business to make it easier for other people to sign up for daily personal check-in calls:
http://www.personalcheckin.com/
(I later sold the company when I realized the difficulty of scaling up phone calls, though I still am a happy client!)
I had a lot of success with this and eventually started a business to make it easier for other people to sign up for daily personal check-in calls:
http://www.personalcheckin.com/
(I later sold the company when I realized the difficulty of scaling up phone calls, though I still am a happy client!)