Ask HN: I'm 18 in Sydney. Part time work at unicorn, or go to uni/college?
The options I'm considering are the following:
- Do part time for this unicorn.
- Find a full time job in Sydney.
- Go to uni (college) for something else I'm interested in.
I love the unicorn, but I'd like something more stable and a bit of higher-impact work. I've discussed this slightly internally but haven't pushed as things are still in a bit of flux.
Unfortunately, the tech scene in Sydney is quite limited and due to lacking a degree, I'm ineligible for US E2 visas. At this stage I'd prefer to join a larger company and learn from bright people; instead of working at a bland consulting company for example.
I'm interested in more things than software engineering and is open to studying other fields, although my current experience & FOSS contributions are all coding-related.
Where do I see myself in 5-10 years? Who knows? Maybe making a startup, because when I made one I loved every moment of it.
What do you think I should do?
24 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 58.6 ms ] threadYou're 18. Get the school done, work part time if you can. By 22 you will have a lot of doors open, whereas the 'unicorn' will just grind you up and replace you with another willing (undegreed) 18 year old in a few years.
That sounds completely untrue, especially for someone who's already had a job without a degree. It shouldn't discourage anyone from pursuing academic work if they want to but the analogy is terrible.
Trust me - you'll thank me at the first round of layoffs.
I don't mean to say college is a waste of time, only that it is not at all an obvious or simple decision to go to college. It is very possible to skip college entirely and be making $180k per year at 22 or 23 with absolutely no debt in the tech industry.
Looked at this way, college can be seen as an opportunity cost rather than an investment.
Personally, I think the only reason the OP should seriously consider college is for the visa benefit. Other than that, it would be helpful for fields that require hard engineering and not just programming.
Even if it was true, what about at 35? At 40? 50? It's just a continual upward climb, no layoffs, no job seeking, no "obsolescence" issues with your skillset? Are you serious?
What, it's just a continual upward trend forever?
I did it. I know others who did it. In fact, I did it in my early 20s. I'm very far ahead of that now, and I have never once struggled with this. I'm not sure how I could prove it to you, so I guess you'd have to take my word for it. I am not saying that this is the outcome everyone receives, but nor do college graduates have consistent outcomes. I have seen friends with top-tier degrees struggle.
Did you know that Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Apple, Yahoo, Amazon, Netflix and most YC companies will explicitly hire people without a degree?
You can achieve this goal by sacrificing four years of potential income history, work experience and a substantial amount of money. You can also achieve this goal with a significant amount of drive, intelligence and luck. It is up to the individual to decide which route is superior for their situation. In OP's case, visa eligibility might make college a very lucrative proposition.
>> Even if it was true, what about at 35? At 40? 50? It's just a continual upward climb, no layoffs, no job seeking, no "obsolescence" issues with your skillset? Are you serious?
I never said it was an upward trend forever. My assertion is that four years of a six figure salary and experience is a strong argument for not going to college.
Are college graduates immune to layoffs? Are they exempt from the ageism and obsolescence inherent in this industry? Are college dropouts one trick ponies who don't understand the underlying theory in lieu of cobbling together different frameworks for CRUD apps?
Perhaps most people should go to college, but a not insignificant number of people should not, and almost everyone should critically examine the decision.
That's all. It's not a cut and dry decision. Everyone likes to say that the bootcamp grads and the dropouts are the first to be laid off, but I disagree. I think it depends on the individual. I know many dropouts who weathered the storm in the dot-com crash because they were better than college-grads.
I'm afraid I don't. I've been through layoffs and I've had to do some layoffs. Degree has never been a significant factor in either.
Because you can't even get a foot in the door without a degree most places; now I'm curious.
My Googler friend told me that as long as I can get an interview, simply having a degree or not is 'irrelevant'.
Maybe it's not a question of degree, but if you've done anything that sets you above?
You can also pick up lots of good stuff from working, but you need to be very careful about what habits and practices you keep. You're going to be in an environment where people are motivated to just get things done. Some people will focus on improving, others will not. You will have your own project deadlines to meet. You might get mentored by smart people, but it's not guaranteed, and politics can play a large role here. Nobody is obligated to make you great.
Working will inevitably be the thing that crystallizes your developer abilities, and I don't think anyone gets good without it, but going to a university helps you learn things that people will often just take for granted in the workplace (unless they don't know them- those unknown unknowns can be tricky)
I suppose I like self-learning more and have been coding, either as a hobby, freelancing, or on my own startup, for 5 years. My experience at this unicorn and elsewhere has made me question just how much I'll get out of a Comp Sci degree. I'm someone who spent most of high school classes coding, and my spare time hacking with embedded devices or mitigating DDoS attacks.
Even disregarding that the value of bachelors of comp sci may be substantially less for me personally, I don't know if software engineering is something I want to build a career in anyway.
Doing Comp Sci commits me to this track to some extent. 4 years of full time work, very frugally saved and invested in an index fund, can become very considerable amount. I can afford to save the vast majority of income for the next few years -- so why not optimise for it?
P.S: Are you Brain Armstrong of Coinbase? Love what you're doing!
On the other hand, once you get going in a career situation, it can have quite a lot of momentum and be hard to get out. The window to get your degree, practically speaking, closes pretty quickly. That's not to say people can't or shouldn't get an undergraduate degree in their later 20s or 30s, but it's rare, and the momentum is part of that.
If you don't know, maybe just take some time to feel things out before making a decision. There's unspoken pressure at 18 to make these big decisions, and frequently people choose without being fully ready. Going on the wrong trajectory is costly, both financially and from an opportunity cost perspective. 6 months spent getting your launch plan together is a lot cheaper than being 2 years into the wrong plan and so on. Your financials and interests will likely place some bounds on how long you can spend away from obligations, but now is also a good time to do all those really out there things you've thought about like Peace Corps etc.
Also, no, I'm not him, though I appreciate the enthusiasm. There are a plurality of Brian Armstrongs, even in tech :)
That's a good question but it's hard to evaluate the opportunity costs of either.
My experience at this unicorn and elsewhere has made me question just how much I'll get out of a Comp Sci degree.
CS programs typically and primarily teach things other than 'coding'.
Doing Comp Sci commits me to this track to some extent.
It doesn't. You can always drop out. This isn't to say that if you find the idea entirely unappealing, you ought to do it anyway because of some silly reason. But if you want to genuinely weigh the options, it's better to not misrepresent them to yourself. Let's say you've decided you'd rather keep on working. Terrific, keep doing it. Or maybe that degree in music theory sounds like it might be interesting. Go ahead and try it.
Yeah, but practically what I'm doing most of the time is architecturing, coding, or debugging, and know/'don't mind learning' a decent amount of 'everything else' to be productive.
I had no trouble learning A* or Minimax or Quicksort when I needed it, I learned enough about neuron networks to build something 'good enough' in two days, I knew enough about networking to mitigate a layer 7 DDoS, etc.
I think I have enough surface breadth to know, most of the time, which tool or algorithm I'll need -- and can then learn that. I don't know too much about genetic algorithms for example, but I think I'll know when it's suitable for the job.
I do not doubt that CS will be valuable to me. I just question "how valuable", because 4 years is a long time.
> It doesn't. You can always drop out.
Good point. I thought that I'd be making a huge commitment, but I won't be in reality. Starting a degree will allow me to better evaluate its value to me too.
Thank you!
Of course. But pop into a bookstore or library and leaf through SICP or TAoCP or the white book or Patterson and Hennessy, etc. There's a reason these and many other topics are subjects of years-long study. It might turn out to not be your thing but you seem somewhat dismissive of it all and it might be to your detriment, whether or not you give a whit about pursuing this academically (I'm not a CS grad myself, incidentally).
However, if you can make the other work, and simply get a job, that might be a better option, depending on the impact school would have on your life and finances. Might be harder to find a job and harder to expand your field.
My actual suggestion, if you think your life will allow, is to work part-time in the field while going to uni. You aren't sure where you want to be in 5-10 years, which is completely fine: This simply opens up as much as possible for you... in theory, anyway.
I've personally found that working in the US is such a fulfilling experience (particularly in SF/SV) and having a degree will make the visa process much easier.
You can still work part-time or freelance and uni will be a great way to meet like-minded people (AKA potential cofounders) if you're interested in founding something in the future.
Being about to get an E2 visa is definitely great.
Can I ask for your depth of knowledge before you went to uni? What degree did you do, and how deep was the scope? I'm just asking because I've been programming for 5 years, on various levels and I'm wondering about how much 'new stuff' I'll learn.
As for me, I started building websites in year 11 for friends/family - I was self-taught HTML, CSS and Wordpress. I had no "real" programming experience, which is where we might differ from each other.
I did an accelerated diploma in Design and then went back and did my bachelors in Comp Sci at USyd. The programming components were definitely new to me (Java, C etc), but you may have experience with them already.
I think it's safe to assume that CS is really not about teaching you how to program - many people graduate and do not know how to code. What you do gain is a deep theoretical knowledge that is really important and useful (algorithms, data structures etc). There are many threads on HN where the differences between self-taught & CS students are compared, you should definitely check them out.
Ultimately, I think it really depends on what you want to be developing. If you want to work at FB/Apple/Google/MS or anywhere outside of Australia, get the degree. If you want to found your own startup, I could see an argument of why the degree might be less useful. That said, I think very few people would regret studying CS or software engineering, it's always going to pay off.
You have time for the rest. Nothing stops you from working part time or as a contractor while studying.
Also, if you're working as a developer already then the first year of university is likely to be straightforward for you. Depending on the hours, you could probably keep the part-time job and study (but out of the two, you should prioritise the study).
Finally, I'd recommend you use your free time in university well. Volunteer for charitable organisations; help out with your student union; take up a sport; keep learning things not on the curriculum. All of these are fulfilling in and of themselves, but will also benefit your future too.