It's easier on men, I guess. It does wound my vanity a bit when young women on the bus offer me a seat. But otherwise, being on the large size and generally glum looking, I don't get people baby-talking me or condescending much.
Interesting story! To me it seems Ms Garner is ok with growing old and more fragile, but does not accept being viewed as inferior or respect-unworthy. Good for her! I wish more elderly people would decouple their loss of youth from their self regard.
To me it seems Ms Garner is ok with growing old and more fragile, but does not accept being viewed as inferior or respect-unworthy. Good for her!
Amen. Not that I would want to live at the other extreme (such as in some Asian societies where age is venerated without qualification) but I think that our society's view of age is seriously broken.
That's not the half of it. This author deserves no respect based on that article.
She is typical of "me me me" and the continual flow of sexism we see from Australian journalists. The last few decades in Australian media have been a dark spot. This author is sexist, arrogant and takes pride in yanking a strange girl's hair (which is tantamount to assault).
"In two strides I was behind the schoolgirl. I reached up, seized her ponytail at the roots and gave it a sharp downward yank."
"My only regret is that I couldn’t see the Asian woman’s face at the moment the schoolgirl’s head jerked back and her insolent grin turned into a rictus."
Not all cultures have this function in which worth is inversely proportional to age. It is something we are taught by society and choose (as individuals) to believe or reject. When you are young, it is inticing, because we are young and therefore this idea means we have great worth. The problem is most people hold on to the idea even when they are older and it becomes dysfunctional; they can't let it go and society tells them they are right to not let it go.
How we are regarded is largely a function of how we allow ourselves to be regarded. Rejecting other people's regard when it is based on faulty premises is one of the gifts of age, that, sadly, not everyone acquires.
Self regard is the cure for the disregard of others.
The society where "elders" were regarded as wells of wisdom probably never existed. In every society but our own, women after 40 were considered very old.
Helen Garner, born Nov. 1942, is 73 years old. She appears to be really full of herself, which is maybe how old people are.
She should be happy to be alive instead of complaining about young people being young.
The society where "elders" were regarded as wells of wisdom probably never existed.
Not true. Traditional Asian societies take the other extreme and venerate age (probably more than they should, but that's another topic). Hence, you have 90-year-old patriarchs calling shots in family businesses, and middle-aged men whose parents were still alive were traditionally considered still adolescent. Also, not taking care of your parents is a jailable crime in China.
In every society but our own, women after 40 were considered very old.
I'm a man under 40, so this may not be my fight, but... Fuck. That. Shit. While it is true that middle-aged, unmarried women were once considered undesirable and suspect, that was in societies in which urinating at the dinner table was socially acceptable, childbirth meant a 1-in-25 chance of dying, indoor plumbing didn't exist, and tuberculosis was a death sentence.
She should be happy to be alive instead of complaining about young people being young.
She's not complaining about young people being young. She's complaining about people (often with no reference to their age) being stupid. Not all young people are stupid.
>The society where "elders" were regarded as wells of wisdom probably never existed.
Historically, the Greeks (as one example) respected the opinions of wise elders,
"Monarchies in ancient Greece were not absolute because there was usually a council of older citizens (the senate, or in Macedonia the congress) who gave advice to the King."
From my own experience, I always sought adults that I felt I could learn from. Even as a kid, I remember thinking some older people gave bad advice and some showed great insight and used this to focus my attention. My own kids seem to echo similar sentiments to my own at the same age.
The article was mean and generally aggressive towards young people (of which, unfortunately, and for the record, I'm not a part of); she brags that she goes around pulling pony tails from young girls and "technically" (sic!) assaulting them, and nobody should respond?
It's unclear what this article is even doing on HN but since it it's there, why counterpoints to it should be frowned upon? Maybe "how old people are" is a bad generalization, but after reading the article would you disagree that she sounds full of herself?
What I saw in the article is that Ms Garner doesn't care much for respect, she just doesn't want to be looked at as weak because she is old are a woman. Her stories demonstrate consistent pride in the contempt with which she treats the people around her.
People overestimate the mental decline that comes with age dramatically. It's more sporadic: most people decline very little, while a few people (i.e. those with dementia) get hit very hard. Unfortunately, much of society forms its model of "old people" based on the "hit very hard" category, and not people like Jacques Barzun, who did his best work in his 80s and 90s.
There's something you observe with biological mental illness which is that it's more stigmatized than it deserves because people encounter the "raving, crazy" people with it (the worst-off 2%) and not the other 98% for whom depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, et al, are more accurately modeled as boring and often manageable health problems than as residence in an alternative universe. I think that the cognitive negatives of aging (typically mild to nonexistent, except in senescent brain diseases like Alzheimer's) get the same smear.
In fact, various studies have put the intellectual peak age (in healthy people) anywhere from 17 to 65 (except for in language acquisition, at which we peak in childhood). That's largely because the curve is so flat and individualized (e.g. some people peak early, some late) that it's impossible to tell.
It's interesting that I've had the complete opposite experience as a white man. The older I get the more respect I get in public, for no apparent reason. The painting example was so apt. No one would dare step between me and a painting. It's a very odd thing, as I don't feel like I deserve any more respect than I did 20 years ago.
Age is a weird prejudice because it depends so much on environment. In most companies, you're viewed negatively before age 30: you're expected to work the worst hours because the assumption is that you have nothing "better" to do and would just be out drinking. In Silicon Valley, you're viewed negatively after 30. Some doors close and others open.
I do find, strangely, that I'm way more attractive to women now that I'm older, even though my looks have (objectively) declined. Adolescent men are unwanted, invisible, and generally disliked by society unless they're in the top 5% for social skills; things get better at 25 and a lot better after 30... although I'm still glad that I married young because I'd imagine that the dating pool shrinks considerably.
as soon as you start talking about what people are actually attracted to (not what they say they are), the shit starts to fly. my comment has swung up/down in votes throughout the day.
> I do find, strangely, that I'm way more attractive to women now that I'm older, even though my looks have (objectively) declined.
Confidence and the way you carry yourself. In our teens and early twenties we tend to dress and act for others. As we get older that becomes less common, or we become better at selling our appearance (attire, demeanor, etc.) as ourselves and not a façade. Whether that's a hoodie and jeans and converse sneakers, or a suit and tie, or something in between doesn't matter (mostly).
Also, in your twenties you're still putting on muscle mass and filling out some. If you maintain decent physical conditioning you won't have that scrawnier look that a lot of teens have. You probably have broader shoulders and a fuller face than you did in your younger years, it looks healthier and more attractive, even if it's paired with gray hair and wrinkles.
When my hair went grey I started getting treated with respect instead of contempt by the cool dudes in guitar shops. I don't expect this to persist into my 60s though
Older people used to be considered wiser and respected. The baby-boomer generation basically invented ageism when they were young in the 70's, it's ironic to see it bite them back now.
The movement itself was just another step in the protests of the civil liberties movement, and to some degree HUAC. I'm sure we could go back farther, but that's just off the top of my head.
Essentially, every new generation denigrates the older generation, and each older generation thinks the newer generation is going to hell-in-a-handbasket.
> Older people used to be considered wiser and respected.
Then people discovered the internet and learned what the 40s/50s were actually like, what they did, and what we are now saddled with. Those old wise men are now the emperor's new cloths.
Edit: I originally said "those old wise men/women" but lets not kid ourselves. Most all the horrible decisions in those decades were taken by men.
Yes! The internet needs more old people posting to it! No society is complete without people of all ages - people of all wisdoms you might say - sharing their knowledge and opinions. Our blogs are noticeably lacking the voice of the elderly, undoubtedly b/c the elderly use the tech less for sure, but it's unfortunate for us. Maybe in 50 years the internet will be a much more temperate place ;)
"In two strides I was behind the schoolgirl. I reached up, seized her ponytail at the roots and gave it a sharp downward yank. Her head snapped back. In a voice I didn’t recognise I snarled, “Give it a rest, darling.” She twisted to look behind her. Her eyes were bulging, her mouth agape. I let go and she bolted away to her friends. The three of them set off at a run. Their white ribbons went bobbing through the crowd all the way along the City Square and up the steps of the Melbourne Town Hall, where a famous private school was holding its speech night. The whole thing happened so fast that when I fell into step beside my friend she hadn’t even noticed I was gone."
The city is Melbourne, the author Helen Garner [0] and the casual racism is pretty accurate. Yet the response should not be condoned. If you switch a 70 year old woman, to a 70 year old man, the man would be detailed and assault charges laid.
As ugly as the racism is, using this kind of force shows a level of entitlement you often see with people who have had authority. [1]
"If you switch a 70 year old woman, to a 70 year old man"
Or pretty much anybody other than an elderly white woman (in a "western" country). Anyway, I don't think the physical violence was necessary but I do admire her intervention on behalf of a stranger against an obnoxious (probably racist) act.
"I do admire her intervention on behalf of a stranger against an obnoxious (probably racist) act."
Over-reaction. The lesson shown here to kids and those watching, if you feel others are being threatened, physically strike back. There is no immediate threat, words would have done the job.
50 comments
[ 5.2 ms ] story [ 126 ms ] threadIt's easier on men, I guess. It does wound my vanity a bit when young women on the bus offer me a seat. But otherwise, being on the large size and generally glum looking, I don't get people baby-talking me or condescending much.
Amen. Not that I would want to live at the other extreme (such as in some Asian societies where age is venerated without qualification) but I think that our society's view of age is seriously broken.
I think Garner's point is that we live in a society in which other people's regard for your worth is a function of your age.
She is typical of "me me me" and the continual flow of sexism we see from Australian journalists. The last few decades in Australian media have been a dark spot. This author is sexist, arrogant and takes pride in yanking a strange girl's hair (which is tantamount to assault).
"In two strides I was behind the schoolgirl. I reached up, seized her ponytail at the roots and gave it a sharp downward yank."
"My only regret is that I couldn’t see the Asian woman’s face at the moment the schoolgirl’s head jerked back and her insolent grin turned into a rictus."
"The armed child behind the police station counter unable to conceal her boredom...."
How we are regarded is largely a function of how we allow ourselves to be regarded. Rejecting other people's regard when it is based on faulty premises is one of the gifts of age, that, sadly, not everyone acquires.
Self regard is the cure for the disregard of others.
Helen Garner, born Nov. 1942, is 73 years old. She appears to be really full of herself, which is maybe how old people are.
She should be happy to be alive instead of complaining about young people being young.
Not true. Traditional Asian societies take the other extreme and venerate age (probably more than they should, but that's another topic). Hence, you have 90-year-old patriarchs calling shots in family businesses, and middle-aged men whose parents were still alive were traditionally considered still adolescent. Also, not taking care of your parents is a jailable crime in China.
In every society but our own, women after 40 were considered very old.
I'm a man under 40, so this may not be my fight, but... Fuck. That. Shit. While it is true that middle-aged, unmarried women were once considered undesirable and suspect, that was in societies in which urinating at the dinner table was socially acceptable, childbirth meant a 1-in-25 chance of dying, indoor plumbing didn't exist, and tuberculosis was a death sentence.
She should be happy to be alive instead of complaining about young people being young.
She's not complaining about young people being young. She's complaining about people (often with no reference to their age) being stupid. Not all young people are stupid.
>> women after 40
> not taking care of your parents is a jailable crime in China.
Nothing about "wisdom" in there.
Historically, the Greeks (as one example) respected the opinions of wise elders,
"Monarchies in ancient Greece were not absolute because there was usually a council of older citizens (the senate, or in Macedonia the congress) who gave advice to the King."
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece
From my own experience, I always sought adults that I felt I could learn from. Even as a kid, I remember thinking some older people gave bad advice and some showed great insight and used this to focus my attention. My own kids seem to echo similar sentiments to my own at the same age.
It's unclear what this article is even doing on HN but since it it's there, why counterpoints to it should be frowned upon? Maybe "how old people are" is a bad generalization, but after reading the article would you disagree that she sounds full of herself?
There's something you observe with biological mental illness which is that it's more stigmatized than it deserves because people encounter the "raving, crazy" people with it (the worst-off 2%) and not the other 98% for whom depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, et al, are more accurately modeled as boring and often manageable health problems than as residence in an alternative universe. I think that the cognitive negatives of aging (typically mild to nonexistent, except in senescent brain diseases like Alzheimer's) get the same smear.
In fact, various studies have put the intellectual peak age (in healthy people) anywhere from 17 to 65 (except for in language acquisition, at which we peak in childhood). That's largely because the curve is so flat and individualized (e.g. some people peak early, some late) that it's impossible to tell.
I do find, strangely, that I'm way more attractive to women now that I'm older, even though my looks have (objectively) declined. Adolescent men are unwanted, invisible, and generally disliked by society unless they're in the top 5% for social skills; things get better at 25 and a lot better after 30... although I'm still glad that I married young because I'd imagine that the dating pool shrinks considerably.
it actually doesn't, in fact it grows continuously, but you'll just be shamed by older women and married men for dating younger women.
Select every argument about why it is none of their business to outlaw/shame homosexuality, Ctrl-C, Ctrl-P.
Why would it? If anything the number of single adults keeps growing each year.
Confidence and the way you carry yourself. In our teens and early twenties we tend to dress and act for others. As we get older that becomes less common, or we become better at selling our appearance (attire, demeanor, etc.) as ourselves and not a façade. Whether that's a hoodie and jeans and converse sneakers, or a suit and tie, or something in between doesn't matter (mostly).
Also, in your twenties you're still putting on muscle mass and filling out some. If you maintain decent physical conditioning you won't have that scrawnier look that a lot of teens have. You probably have broader shoulders and a fuller face than you did in your younger years, it looks healthier and more attractive, even if it's paired with gray hair and wrinkles.
and this shouldn't be surprising to anyone. yes, there are a few out there that are able to stay strong even in that age bracket, but they are few.
Said respect tends to disappear once I tell people I'm only 24, so I stopped doing that.
Earlier than that. The original "Never trust anyone over 30" was already a saying by the mid-sixties as a consequence of FSM: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Free_Speech_Movement
The movement itself was just another step in the protests of the civil liberties movement, and to some degree HUAC. I'm sure we could go back farther, but that's just off the top of my head.
Essentially, every new generation denigrates the older generation, and each older generation thinks the newer generation is going to hell-in-a-handbasket.
There is nothing new under the sun.
I am Not an American. Can you point me to any more info on this.
"The Hidden Persuaders" - Vance Packard ISBN-13: 978-0978843106 is a good start. He's a bit crazy but it's a good read.
Then people discovered the internet and learned what the 40s/50s were actually like, what they did, and what we are now saddled with. Those old wise men are now the emperor's new cloths.
Edit: I originally said "those old wise men/women" but lets not kid ourselves. Most all the horrible decisions in those decades were taken by men.
The city is Melbourne, the author Helen Garner [0] and the casual racism is pretty accurate. Yet the response should not be condoned. If you switch a 70 year old woman, to a 70 year old man, the man would be detailed and assault charges laid.
As ugly as the racism is, using this kind of force shows a level of entitlement you often see with people who have had authority. [1]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Garner
[1] Garner was a High School teacher till '72.
Or pretty much anybody other than an elderly white woman (in a "western" country). Anyway, I don't think the physical violence was necessary but I do admire her intervention on behalf of a stranger against an obnoxious (probably racist) act.
Over-reaction. The lesson shown here to kids and those watching, if you feel others are being threatened, physically strike back. There is no immediate threat, words would have done the job.