Does "dead" status on HackerNews means suppression of the freedom of speech?

6 points by trtmrt ↗ HN
Think about it, if news are not good and no one votes they will drop anyway, and after one hour or so no one will vote for them.

Censorship by definition is the suppression of speech, public communication or other information.

But, if first user who has admin rights decided to mark something as "dead" basically he acts same as people in Stasi Germany, filtering the continent for "greater good".

[Update] Additionally, why is sharing other people things considered ok but sharing your own things consider bad and banned?

[Update 2] I would gladly answer but I am getting message I am submitting too fast

Example:

For instance for the following account [grisanik] everything from that story [10790985], has marked as "dead", it is distopian/utopian story about two futures.

https://hacker-news.firebaseio.com/v0/user/grisanik.json?print=pretty

Why is that story considered as spam? On that site there is no adverts?

Tell me what is considered as on topic I just read the story about gang rape. How is that on topic with Hack news?

>>>> Comment "You are saying HN is not ok to say I made this what do you think about it? and then I made something else what do you think about that?" But it is ok with U1 "Elon Musk ..." U2 "Elon Musk ..." U3 "Elon Musk ..."

I know that Elon Musk is awesome I do not to read about him here I can go to his official site.

What is that you people make? That is what interest me... But again maybe I am wrong ...

30 comments

[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 68.5 ms ] thread
It's nothing to do with admins - it's ordinary users flagging items as not being appropriate for HN. They might even be interesting, it's just that some things are not on-topic.

For example - spam really doesn't belong, and should be flagged. When that happens, the item is killed and is marked as [dead].

Do you have any specific item in mind?

Yes, specific thing is that if you share only own things you will be suspended completly.

So, my additional question to this, are we unintentionally crating a structure/trend of followers instead of leaders? By encuraging people to follow instead to create?

> Yes, specific thing is that if you share only own things you will be suspended completly.

Er, that's spam and most websites would ban you for doing that, not just HN.

Are you ok with that?

Why are pepole ok with sharing other people things, but it is not ok to share your own things?

You're not listening. Other people do share their own stuff, and don't get banned, and the items don't get flagged.

GIVE US SOME EXAMPLES!

There's a difference between "hey, I found something y'all might find interesting" vs "hey, I wrote something and I'm trying to promote it".
And HN is fine with "Hey, I made something and I'm trying to promote it".

HN is not fine with

"Hey, I made something and I'm trying to promote it".

"Hey, I made something and I'm trying to promote it".

"Hey, I made something and I'm trying to promote it".

"Hey, I made something and I'm trying to promote it".

"Hey, I made something and I'm trying to promote it".

"Hey, I made something and I'm trying to promote it".

"Hey, I made something and I'm trying to promote it".

"Hey, I made something and I'm trying to promote it".

"Hey, I made something and I'm trying to promote it".

"Hey, I made something and I'm trying to promote it".

[repeat]

It is ok to share your own stuff. I mean, look at the submission history of the guy you are responding to ;) minimaxir posts tons of his own content, but it is good content, and he also participates on the site otherwise.

Also, agreed with CarolineW. Show examples.

The key word the OP mentioned is only:

Here is his example account:

https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=grisanik

All submissions are from one domain, and there are barely any comments.

IMHO (as a user, but one that you'll often find in the new-queue) what is critical here that

a) none of these got any user engagement (ok, some got an upvote or two and a single one actually managed to attract a comment)

b) despite this, there is a constant stream of several submissions per week

c) the user didn't comment on other articles, but just "dropped off" their content

EDIT: regarding the last edit: I don't care for Musk-news either, but if it is not spammed and not duplicate I have no reason to flag it, and apparently enough people care to upvote it. I upvote if people submit something cool they made. Others do as well, the stuff many people find cool rises. "I just added a tiny boring feature to my boring app", not so much.

Looks like someone's just reflexively promoting their own blog, which contains content largely uninteresting to HN. grisanik posted 3 comments (actual participation) but submitted 30 links (nearly all self-promotion). The applicable adjective is not compelling nor interesting, but relentless.
Have you considered that the content you're sharing is not really on-topic for HN? Do you have some links? There's nothing listed as submissions under your username.

Quite a few people share mostly only their own things and they don't get banned.

> Yes, specific thing is that if you share only own things you will be suspended completly.

Not true. But there are many accounts that just post everything that appears on their blog, or submit ads for their own product over and over again and don't participate otherwise that are [dead]. Because they are often "mindlessly" spamming low-quality or not fitting articles and get marked as such.

There needs to be one person besides yourself who thinks your work is HN-worthy. If that person exists, they'll post it to HN and you have no problem. If that person does not exist, then your work isn't HN-worthy and you shouldn't post it yourself. Instead of complaining about HN's rules, find one person who will vouch for your stuff.
> It's nothing to do with admins - it's ordinary users flagging items as not being appropriate for HN. They might even be interesting, it's just that some things are not on-topic.

Not entirely correct. [dead] is banned by some filter set up by the mods, user flags only lead to [flagged]/[dupe] markings on the individual submission (and attention of the mods, which then adjust the filters for future submissions based on this input)

EDIT: This also goes the other way, I've sent dang links to things I thought were unfairly [dead] and where he agreed he fixed it/invited users to resubmit content to give it another chance. I guess now that vouch exists they look at that as well.

Censorship by definition is "the suppression or prohibition of any parts of books, films, news, etc. that are considered obscene, politically unacceptable, or a threat to security", with the clear understanding that attempting to bypass it by publishing elsewhere will be likewise censored and likely punished.

Routine maintaining of order & interest on a private site is NOT censorship; you are welcome to publish your content & links elsewhere, and HN admins (and users flagging objectionable content) will not come after you to erase such publication or punish you for publishing it anyway.

Stasi would kill you for persisting in publishing prohibited content. PG et al won't.

But this is the thing, other sites have similar idea of "censorship", you cannot post your own things. So, if people are centred on specific sites, where can you post?

Maybe they will not kill you physically but surely they will kill your electronic life.

Also question is following if people gather on private site are those sites private or public?

Their site, their property, their business.

There are plenty of sites where you can post pretty much whatever you want. HN likely frowns on self-promotion, as it would fast turn an informative news site into a bunch of "look at me!" content few are interested in.

Publicly-accessible privately-owned sites are still private, just like stores "open to the public" - you're welcome to come in and participate as the business sees fit, but promoting yourself (unless that's the point of the site) is usually frowned on and not leaving when requested is punishable trespassing.

No, they're not "killing your electronic life". Go to networksolutions.com (or wherever), register your own domain, and publish whatever you want (a few generally-accepted legal limitations aside, like libel or obscenity or state secrets). Promote it thru advertising, Twitter, Facebook, etc insofar as you're not violating their standards for objectionable/deniable content.

Freedom of the press does not mean freedom to use someone else's press as you see fit.

In answer to your update:

    [Update] Additionally, why is sharing other
    people things considered ok but sharing your
    own things consider bad and banned?
In general, it's not. Maybe the stuff you're submitting is simply not regarded as on-topic for HN.

As I've said elsewhere, give us some examples, and we can give you some feedback.

(I'm not a mod or admin, so I'm not sure about this stuff. Perhaps I'm wrong.)

1) Hacker News has a variety of methods for marking submissions or comments as dead. Not all of these require moderator intervention. Many submissions are marked dead by spam filters. Or they're killed by user flags. Some comments are caught in spam filters, or the user has been caught in a hellban. Or sometimes users flag the comment (I think this is marked differently as "flagged" rather than "dead").

2) Users with a small amount of karma can "Vouch" for dead items. This will bring them back to live status, and might trigger the mods to look to see if the account was mistakenly killed.

3) Even if the account was correctly hellbanned users could vote to un-kill individual comments. Although abuse of the vouch feature leads to loss of the button.

4) Can you point to anything that you think was incorrectly killed? Plenty of stuff which is critical of HN or YCombinator or YCombinator companies is posted and not killed. Mods have said, many times, that they do not intervene in killing those threads.

5) YCombinator companies are held to the same community standards as everyone else. A YCombinator company that used sock-puppets to vote up their submissions would get banned.

6) Sharing your own things is fine. There's even a section of the site dedicated to sharing your stuff: Show HN. And the rules ask people to engage in constructive criticism, and avoid undue negativity. It's a problem if the only thing you submit is from your own site. But it's a problem if a user only submits from one site even if it's not their stuff. Some people take every opportunity to mention their stuff in comments. "Oh hey, just wanted to say my site EXAMPLE.COM does this, try it out, let me know what you think". Sometimes that's okay if it's directly relevant to the parent comment. And HN is seems to be reasonably tolerant of it. But you have to be honest ("This is my site" is okay, "hey, have you seen this site?" is less okay) and you have to not over do it.

But, like I say, I'm just a user so maybe I've got this all wrong.

Could you define "hellbanned" for me? I've seen that term several times, but I don't know what it actually means.
Have you tried googling it? The Wikipedia entry seems to cover it pretty well.
Well, no, I didn't, because I assumed it was an HN-specific term.

To whoever downvoted CarolineW: She didn't answer my question, but she pointed me to the answer, which I thought was good enough.

(comment deleted)
If you think your submissions are being killed unfairly, there is a contact link at the bottom of the page where you can discuss it with the staff. Be sure to mention your actual account to them and not the one you appear to have created just to make vague complaints.
Firstly, the faq says not to ask this kind of question here, but to email them. Have you done that?

Secondly, many things on HN are automated, the volume of work would be too large otherwise. Consider, you submit item after item, getting no comments and no upvotes. I'm not surprised an automated system would mark it as probable spam, especially since you've never commented on anything else. You have been behaving just as a spammer would.

Which takes me back to the first point: have you asked the mods? Complaining here just makes you look bad.

I'm not involved with HN or YC in any way, I'm just a cranky old man.

Your definition of censorship ignores that you have no basic right to publish using facilities you don't own.

Also, considering we can opt in to seeing the dead items, they aren't even censored by your loose definition of the term, they are just inconvenient to access.

Freedom of speech means you are free to express your opinions. Freedom of speech does not mean a private, third party is obligated to provide you with a forum to express your opinions. You have an almost infinite opportunity to express yourself on the internet; get over yourself.

I've been hellbanned apparently, which ever so slightly annoys me considering it was for stuff that "cooler" posters don't have an eye batted at, but I don't pretend HN owes me anything.

> I've been hellbanned apparently

No, by definition that's banning someone without telling them, and we told you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10545474.

Pretty much the only accounts that we ban without telling them are brand new ones that are spamming or trolling. If a user has any real history here, we tell them that they're banned, and there's a standing invitation for anyone who sincerely intends to improve their behavior on the site to email us and get unbanned. There's also now a mechanism—as other users have explained in this thread—for comments by banned users to get restored by the community on a case-by-case basis.

We're thinking of abolishing shadow-banning altogether and making a big announcement that we've done so, because there's still a lot of misunderstanding around this, and we barely do it anyway. But I don't like to make any big change without first letting it simmer a long time. It's simmering.

I missed that. Still, banned for things other, cooler posters are allowed, but I can beg to be forgiven. Good to know.