Funny, I have a Delaware LLC company registered in USA (it's an offshore company) but my bank account is outside the US (completely legal), yet Stripe denies me right to open an account and accept the payments.
It would be hypocrisy if they claimed one thing and then did/acted another. Non-US bank accounts are listed in their FAQ and their general policy (not supported, use a US bankaccount as proxy) remains the same.
I hope Stripe changes their policy in the future (though you would have to rename your HN username then).
> Silicon Valley Bank will waive account maintenance fees for the first 24 months. SVB will share more detail about your account’s complete fee schedule and functionality as you open your bank account.
> Pay a registered agent located in Delaware to act as a liaison between your company and the state. Stripe will set you up with a registered agent at a rate of $125 per year. (The first year’s fee is covered by Stripe.)
> File an annual report with Delaware, which costs $50.
> Pay an annual Franchise Tax to the state of Delaware—a minimum of $175 per year.
> Pay federal income tax on income generated in the U.S.
Interesting angle. For a while I've wondered why nobody does a tech/startup version of "Company in a box". This looks like it's exactly that. Incorporation, payment processing, the works.
Is Stripe getting a cut of the eventual revenue from the service providers that are providing the offerings? What's the incentive on their side? Or are they just hoping to scrape by on the transaction fee revenue (which are way less than people think they are because they pay out most of it upstream[1]).
Also, what's the expiration on the $15K of AWS credits? The usual one year or longer?
[1]: If you're wondering why just think about how you get "1% cash back on all purchases!".
The $500 is above market rate for an LLC + US bank account. Do you think this cost will be revised down sometime in the future? Another challenge is that some folks can get in serious trouble (ie. imprisonment) with their local government for even having a foreign bank account. This is because local governments see it as a drain of foreign currency reserves like the USD/EUR, which are much needed by the country in question for imports. So this info needs to be kept top secret. What measures does Stripe take to prevent this kind of info from leaking?
Above market rate? As someone who has vigorously engaged in this process for literally years (due to the needs of myself and also my friends), the best I have ever seen is $800, which is the service I ended up using. Do you have any examples to point to?
A few places offer "Company in a box" but without the automatic bank account (e.g. search google for any "Register a company" keywords or even the more startup focused https://www.clerky.com).
The most amazing this here is obviously the automatic bank account integration. The last time I set up a SVB account I had to drive to their Santa Clara office, meet someone, convince them I'm not a hack fraud (lol, tricked them on that one), then fax over paperwork, then wait a week for things to get enabled. Just a lot of friction before even getting started on the real goal of setting up a business account for accepting iOS platform payments. (side note: let's hope the SVB web interface has gotten better since then. last I checked, it felt like a scaled up 1996 web app... kinda awful all over, but it got the job done.)
This offering does sound like it's more focused on helping non-US people to just start processing US payments easier and not expressly around startups (a la clerkly). It skips some startup-isms we all know and love (83b forms not expressly mentioned, does it allocate "startup levels" of default stock during incorporation, etc), and a big thing not mentioned: it doesn't register you as a foreign entity in a non-delaware state. You'll get a nastygram from your state tax office if you don't register as a local foreign entity (they'll scrape IRS details about you to figure out which companies exist in their state but aren't registered). Registering as a foreign entity is different for every state (more fees) and sometimes more BS ("you must notify the public of your new corporation by paying for notices in two (2) newspapers for six (6) weeks to complete this process" (that could be just for actual corporations and not foreign registrations though)).
Looks like an amazing offering overall, and it's always amusing to see how AWS throws credits all over the place. If Google could wise up to it (assuming it's not an Amazon promotional exclusivity contract), they should be throwing 4x-10x AWS-sized credits at all the same targets too.
I'm wondering how Atlas compares to Clerky. You mentioned 83b forms, default allocations, and foreign entity registration... Anything else to consider?
Both systems are ways to get you bootstrapped as quickly as possible, but you should always lawyer up to verify the rest. The clerkly offerings go a bit deeper into employment/contracts, and Stripe could actually knock those out too by adding just a few more template forms over the next few months.
(not affiliated with either, just keeping up with the quickest/easiest/legalist ways to start organizations as hassle free as possible)
Yea, that's a very accurate guess - the way to think about it is that Stripe Atlas will more or less do the bare minimum necessary to get you processing payments on Stripe (though they put you in touch with folks to handle the rest).
Clerky's more of a full-package solution from the legal side of things (but obviously not on the banking / payments side).
There's also no need to apply for Clerky - anyone can just sign up and get it done immediately.
The most curious part about Stripe Atlas is they are just ε away from doing it all themselves now. Doesn't take giant leaps of the imagination to see where it could be headed next.
The whole "apply" stage is probably just because it's a new service. Don't want to have 10,000 people jumping on your as-yet-unproven process without a gating mechanism.
To answer your question of why nobody's done a "company in a box" - the gating difficulty is in getting banks to accept companies more or less carte blanche, which gets even more difficult when international companies / founders are involved.
Part of the reason for this is that most banks, due to the Patriot Act, require a physical presence in order to fulfill their interpretation of their Know Your Customer duties. Am curious to see how Stripe plans to get around this as the precious few services currently on offer are of the 'friend of a friend' wink-wink nudge-nudge type.
Good question! Every company’s situation will be different (which is one of the reasons we’re working with PwC to provide expert tax guidance and education). But generally speaking, companies that are incorporated in the US will need to pay US taxes, and may also pay taxes in their local jurisdiction.
The corporation we help you setup in the US would be a new entity.
While I applaud the idea, if you don't need to be US based:
1. It's ridiculous to incorporate in the US, due to ridiculous tax policies; and
2. It's a great way to upset local tax authorities + there are probably a ton of nasty side effects (e.g. some countries have "see through" taxation that taxes certain profits arriving in foreign entities at the shareholder level, or require board meetings to be held in the jurisdiction the company is based in, etc etc)
If you do this, make sure to get advice from local counsel, or it could end up being a very expensive exercise
This definitely isn’t for everyone — and people’s situations will be different — but based on what we’ve seen there are plenty of entrepreneurs who have already (painstakingly) done this or would like to do it. Our goal is to make what people are already doing more understandable and remove roadblocks so this is available to everyone who wants to go this route.
> 1. It's ridiculous to incorporate in the US, due to ridiculous tax policies; and
What are these ridiculous tax policies? I've often heard complaints about US taxes for citizens/residents, but nothing yet for companies... (I realize that many companies choose to incorporate in tax havens to evade taxes; but I'm mainly interested in knowing how is incorporating in the US worse than incorporating in e.g. UK, Switzerland, Japan, Australia, Germany, France)
High corporate taxes + global taxation of profits. For example, any profit coming from lower taxed subsidiary (i.e. a dividend) will be taxed at the difference between the local rate and US corporate tax rate. So if you pay 20% in the UK, you will have to pay an additional 15% (35%-20%) in US tax.
Second, the US is very aggressive when it comes to withholding taxes (FATCA and all) - if you’re a shareholder living in a country without a decent tax treaty with the US, you’ll lose an extra 30% on any dividend you declare, unless you include intermediary structures such as holding companies etc
Now, some of these might not matter that much to a startup since they aren’t making a profit anyway. But if you build something profitable it will be relevant for an acquirer. If things are set up properly to pay less tax, they will pay more for your company.
Yes, the company will be subject to US taxes but Delaware is a tax haven so it should be lower that wherever you live.
The problem is when you want to get money out of that company, to your home country. You'll have to pay taxes in your home country... Unless you take the plane with a suitcase full of cash once in a while.
Knowing the ridiculous U.S. tax laws (e.g. you once had an Green Card and now they want to tax you pretty much for the rest of your life regardless of where you live and work), overboarding bureaucracy and general lack of legal security (e.g. frivolous patent lawsuits), I would certainly open my business pretty much anywhere else.
"We expect Atlas to be most beneficial for entrepreneurs who have a global customer base, plan to raise money from global investors, or who plan to build an operational presence in the U.S.
While incorporating in the U.S. can make many things much easier, it also comes with long-term legal and tax implications. You should think carefully about whether it’s best for your business and consult advisors as necessary.
(Please note that there are a number of business categories that we can’t support in the U.S.)"
Not for foreigners, for people who want to have a US operations, raise money, or have customers in the US. I think ops, raising money, or having us customers is the right order to think of it too.
A very nice product it seems. But people should be aware that having a US business, bank account and so on makes you a "US person" in the eyes of the US government which comes with downsides. If you recently tried to open a bank account somewhere you might have seen the form you have to fill out which tries to discover if you are indeed such a "US person". I don't know exactly what the result apart from probably the bank refusing to take you as a customer is since I am careful to not become such a "US person".
Nowerdays it's becoming increasingly a better idea to incorporate in a different country than the US if you can, especially for online businesses including privacy, tax and ease of doing business.
It is of course possible (likely?) that the policy could be expanded at any time... so perhaps maintaining a maximum distance is indeed a prudent policy for those currently outside the grips of the US tax feeders.
For banking purposes you can already be befined as a US person by just having a US phone number, mailing address or generate some brokerage gains from any US business.
You don't have a U.S. phone number, mailing address, etc. You only own shares in the business. Though you may also be an employee and hold other positions within the company. You aren't anymore a U.S. person by owning shares of the corporation you setup than you would be a U.S. person by owning shares in Microsoft.
Owning a US company is exactly the kind of "relation to US" (the phrasing banks use here, not "US person") that will trigger the consequences described by other commenters.
I'm very aware that US citizenship comes with legal hurdles when dealing with foreign banks, especially in Europe - but I'm not aware of any such issues with non-US citizens merely owning a US business entity.
I am not a legal expert but this is from the application form of Citibank:
7) US PERSON CERTIFICATION:
I/We certify under penalties of perjury that (Please tick one box)
(i) I am/We are not a U.S. Person (as defined below)
...
“U.S. Person” as used by the Bank means any of the following:
...
(ii) a United States resident; meaning:
...
d. an individual with a U.S. mailing address or U.S. telephone number.
IANAL. That said, here's my armchair, never-done-it analysis from Canada: That is what a W8 form is for. So if you have an individual account with a US bank, the bank knows you aren't a US resident, meaning you don't actually reside in the US. Now, as someone non-American but connected to a company doing business, that's another W8 or W9 form. But even then, while you might have reporting obligations to the IRS as an individual (I'm not sure) your company definitely would, as in all scenarios, a US based company is considered a "US person" even if it has foreign shareholders. That you pay taxes on the company should reduce the need to pay taxes as an individual. If you reside in the US more than 50% (IIRC) of a year, you become a US resident even if you don't have a special visa or citizenship. If you don't actually live that long in the US it's easy to argue that you're not connected to the US, but you will likely have to self-report that. It might be a question of how you get paid too. If you set up a subsidiary C-Corp where dividends go back to the parent company, you'll pay taxes on the profits and taxes at home, but as mentioned elsewhere, you shouldn't pay more tax than your rate in both countries, whichever is higher. This is the cost of doing business -- taxes. Alternatively, you could work remotely for the company, thus taking profits before they are subject to tax. This is a more complicated structure and you might end up paying more taxes, it depends on the income brackets at your local jurisdiction. The reason you consult is not because US law is complicated but because most legal systems internationally do not have easy ways of dealing with US company income for taxation. LLCs can be especially interesting internationally, because their tax obligations can change based on how they declare themselves on the IRS form.
That's on an individual basis. A corporation is an entirely separate legal entity that is not you. (That's the whole purpose of it.)
Generally, indications that a natural person may be a "US person" include[0]:
* A U.S. place of birth
* Identification of the Account Holder as a U.S. citizen or resident
* A current U.S. residence or mailing address (including a U.S. PO box)
* A current U.S. telephone number
* Standing instructions to pay amounts from a foreign (meaning non U.S.) account to an account maintained in the United States
* A current power of attorney or signatory authority granted to a person with a U.S. address
* A U.S. "in-care-of" or "hold mail" address that is the sole address with respect to the account holder
* Special note: Others affected by FATCA include
any non U.S. person who shares a joint account with a U.S. person or otherwise allows a U.S. person to have signatory authority on the account.
* Any business or not for profit organization that allows a U.S. person to have signatory authority on a financial account.
They're basically looking for Americans and permanent residents who have foreign accounts so that they can report the accounts to the US Gov.
I'd have to copy a whole page of various things that make you fall into that definition. Citizens and residents obviously are such US persons but there are others like having a US phone number. See my comment above.
Again, IANAL, and I'm Canadian with a US bank account but yet to "do business" in the US (just having an expense account does not qualify in most/all jurisdictions): Having a US phone number does not make you a US resident -- but having a US bank account means proving to the IRS and your bank that they should not withhold any taxes on your personal account. Having a US phone number does not in any way on its own require you to fill out IRS forms. Having a bank account does because your assets could be frozen, hence W8 and W9. Having a company in the US means potential tax returns, because now you're officially doing business federally and also at a state level for your company. Even then, you are NOT a US resident personally, unless you physically reside within the US more than X% of the year. There are also many different tax treaties under which your W8 forms can provide exemptions, though some declarations might still require annual filing to declare you're not a resident, or pay taxes on dividends. Your US company is considered a US person, however.
Sure, that is correct in theory. In practice most European banks won't touch you with a ten-foot pole if they even just suspect you might need to fulfill US reporting obligations. Therefore they use a much broader definition This is not only about tax but all the cost associated in dealing with all the forms which makes you an expensive customer.
But if you simply own shares in a US company, surely banks will deal with you then? Or if you get paid by a US company as a foreigner? It also is probably on a bank-by-bank basis that things are handled. FATCA was introduced in 2012 but it's been 4 years, long enough that there should be one or two banks at least who will play nice...
To be clear, in Canada, my understanding is that it's very hard to get a bank account as a US person unless actually in Canada. But top banks and some credit unions are prepared to handle FATCA-required forms and reporting.
Big difference too between foreigners with US interests and actual US persons with foreign interests, I would think...
So any tourist who's bought a pre-paid SIM at an airport is an "US person", and probably therefore filled out a form or two incorrectly? (Or even illegally?)
As a US Person, many European banks will either decline your business or only offer you a very expensive special US Person bank account. It's because of the ridiculous requirements the US places on them regarding tax reporting.
Is this primarily aimed at citizens of the US and countries otherwise not serviced by Stripe? What could be a reason for me to want this as if I'm, say, German or Canadian?
Germany and Canada are excellent countries to run a business from. Can I pitch you on the United States? We're a large country with a thriving technology industry that spends billions of dollars on the thing you sell. We have thriving capital markets, including a majority of worldwide dollars in seed stage tech companies, at terms which are better than you will receive anywhere else. We have millions of very smart engineers available for hire. Doing business in the United States: a great idea!
Doing business in the US? Do it as an American entity! We're institutionally equipped to deal with companies from 50 jurisdictions but as soon as you say GMBH or Euro we get very confused. US companies have huge logistical difficulties doing international payments relative to domestic payments; you can find a company with $50 million in the bank whose CFO literally had no button available to her that could possibly authorize an international wire. Many routine acts of commerce will require a number from you which any US entity can get by sneezing and which a foreign entity will take months of effort to achieve. We have a variety of cultures nationwide; essentially none of them routinely interact with foreign corporate entities and essentially all of whom will view those interactions with caution and annoyance rather than the routinely extended trust and assumption of fair dealing that all domestic entities enjoy by default.
You will be in great company! (Ba dum bum?) Substantially every German and Canadian major corporation, and hundreds of thousands of natural German and Canadian people, choose to use a Us entity so that they can conveniently interface with public and private US institutions when their business dealings bring them to the United States.
I want to add a UK-specific viewpoint for anyone with a British business who's wondering if a US entity is a necessity for dealing with US corporations.
I run a service-oriented business with 10 employees in the UK and most of our income is from US-based corporations. Externally we work entirely in USD. Once we determined our tax and legal positions, we've not encountered any problems with payments, wires, forms (W-8BENI is accepted in place of W-9s), or taxes, and our customer roster is a couple hundred tech companies - ranging from F500s with arcane vendor account requirements, through to mid range companies, startups, and small ISVs.
Trade between the UK and US is common and, depending on what you are trading, has a low amount of friction due to the UK's relatively open nature and low level of bureaucracy on matters of banking, international trade and taxation.
(If you sell physical items, need to take on US-based staff, start a US office, are a low margin business that couldn't take exposure to exchange rates or cross-border tax volatility, or need to appeal to US investors, disregard the above and get a US entity! :-))
Very interesting. It almost reads like it's oriented to first-time businesses, but makes almost no mention that a Delaware company is probably overkill for most people starting out.
Kudos to the Stripers for continuing to innovate in the payments space! Really enjoying the simplicity and elegance of your btc payment solutions ;)
Wondering if Atlas could be used to "port" successful internet business models to "foreign" locales? Setting up a Flipkart in Morocco, or a Youku for Samoans...
Is there really a market for this? Why would anyone outside the US want to open a US company when you can just as easily open a company and bank account in a tax-free country with little/no oversight?
Belize, Nevis, British Virgin Islands are all places you can incorporate for little cost and no taxes, there are many online services that will set it up for you just like Stripe is doing in the US. With a corp in one of these countries, you can then open a bank account in Singapore, Hong Kong, etc. where there is no oversight on your account so you are free to do what you want.
Because then you can do business in the US (largest English speaking client base) without any trouble?
And accepting debit cards (especially US cards) is still quite hard in most of the world afaik, aside from the UK, so this is a godsend to any entrepreneurs who want a real chance at success.
This was actually the dream just half a decade ago, to incorporate in the US without having to actually get a visa and go there and easily conduct business with anyone in the world...
Nowadays, it's not as pressing, but still a great service imo...
Accepting cards from most locations isn't actually difficult any longer with Stripe, Braintree, Paymill, and others. US cards aren't special in terms of being able to accept them; they're just regular Visa/MC/Amex/Discover/whatever cards.
The neglected payment methods are the country specific ones. Some major countries have very low credit-card penetration, for example in the Netherlands. The common internet payment method there is iDEAL which is a kind of two factor authenticated bank transfer. Even debit cards in the Netherlands have two distinguishing features: there isn't a PAN number on the card which makes it impossible[0] to use online in the way you'd use an embossed Visa/MasterCard, and the Dutch banks all issue their debit cards under the Maestro and V-Pay schemes.
[0] Not really, but very few people know what their debit card's PAN number is. It's possible to calculate the hidden PAN number as it's usually just a regular Maestro card, or to just scan it off the card using NFC and an appropriate app.
(I work for Stripe) Hey! Yes we're definitely aware of the need to take into account local payment landscapes that can be quite specific (you rightly mentioned iDEAL in the Netherlands, there's also EPS in Austria, Bancontact/MrCash in Belgium, to name a few others in Europe...). We're working on this and I'd be happy to connect to learn more about your needs. My email is just gabriel at, feel free to reach out!
If you open an LLC as a foreigner there is basically no US tax and little oversight. And setting up a company and bank account in a tax haven tends to be pretty expensive. (Price list here - http://www.offshoreformations247.com/offshore-jurisdictions/ - Delaware is the cheapest)
Does this fulfill the requirement from the YC application? „International founders, please note: if your company is a non-United States entity (corporation, limited liability company, etc.), your participation in YC is conditional on conversion of your foreign company into a United States corporation.“
Could just sell the intellectual property from A to B for a $1.
Many countries are wise to those types of shenanigans. The convoluted legal requirements to move our company from South Africa to the UK was astounding, and we had to abandon our claims to our old IP to boot.
> - Pay federal income tax on income generated in the U.S.
> We strongly recommend that you work with tax and legal experts to handle these ongoing requirements. To help, Atlas users get direct access to resources and guidance from Orrick and PwC. You can also chat over the phone for free with a professional from PwC.
^ from the FAQ, should be in bold characters on the home page.
"tax on income generated in the U.S.", what does income generated in the U.S. means? Good luck finding an easy answer to this which will satisfy both your local jurisdiction and the U.S. PwC and the likes thrive because the tax code is a complicated beast that just get bigger every year.
Apart from raising money in the US, as a Canadian company, I don't see any advantage to this.
The amount of knowledge needed to deal with those issues clearly makes it suited to experienced entrepreneurs with the means to get good counselling.
Shameless plug: we are working on this at Tundra (http://www.tundra.com) for global B2B e-commerce and logistics. We allow suppliers to easily sell their products to other businesses.
Great with the payment solution. But why would anyone want to pay US corporate tax, US accountants etc. - often on top of the local tax, local accountant etc?
Don't forget that many other countries would still regard the "Stripe Atlas company" as taxable in their local country if the company is actually run from the local country or has offices in the local country. So from day one you would have to deal with international taxation, double taxation etc.
Do you really need an explanation of why people might want to do business in a way that includes the US?
If you don't want that feature, why complain about Stripe - just incorporate and get a bank account in Honduras or wherever you think it is most useful to your business.
Talented entrepreneurs from all over the world want to start a business, but not all the countries these entrepreneurs are in have access to the business and banking infrastructure entrepreneurs need to establish a company that's global from day one.
Incorporating in the US, for example, allows companies to issue stock to employees, makes it easy to raise money from global investors, and provides the stability of clear corporate rules and case law. (This is why 60% of the Fortune 500 are incorporated in Delaware). There are also many more business services available to US companies than might otherwise be available to companies based in smaller countries with emerging economies.
So while you're right that there are taxes and other things that come into play when running a business, we find people are already coming up against these roadblocks today -- we built Atlas to reduce this complexity. We hope to see more businesses started because of this.
I absolutely love this idea - it solves for a HUGE pain point that entrepreneurs have dealing with the logistical, legal, and financial groundwork for a startup and getting to payments easily. Good lord, if Atlas were around for me to setup my startup, I would be crying tears of joy.
What I'm confused about is why they didn't focus more on the convenience advantages and positioned Atlas as a non-geo tied incorporation/setup offer. As many people have noted, the advantages of doing business as a U.S. company if you're not in the U.S. is unclear. It seems far more appropriate as a side note to the much needed advantages of solving a legal, financial, and accounting nightmare just to get payments. Why emphasize international?
I live in Algeria, and we can't use credit cards here, my bank account doesn't support debit cards transfer and if I veer receive 10$ from outside the country, then I'm in for 1 day of questioning the resources for those money, This is a great use case for my country and great initiative from Stripe, Thank you.
I'd be interested to hear how this works out for you too! I live in New York, but my father's family is in Bejaia and a lot of them have similar problems.
The only way I can think of is Western Union. But the fees are ridiculously high. Even then, the sender is the receiver. I'm not sure how that would work.
I'm from Tunisia, a country with heavy currency controls, where it is actually impossible to send money out of the country. Of course, if you're a foreign company etc. you can, but not for regular citizens.
So what does that mean? No credit cards online, no bank transfers, no PayPal, and so on. I hope this service can somehow help aspiring local entrepreneurs.
If it's more convenient for you to setup everything locally, good news: we also have a beta going in Brazil! You can sign up for an invite at https://stripe.com/global#br and we'll send one as soon as we can.
Not really. There is nothing wrong with a BR company having a US subsidiary or the other way around, and many companies big and small do it.
You will need a lawyer, or at least a good accountant, to get the taxes right: pay what you owe in the US and in BR, avoiding at all possible double taxation.
Does this mean Stripe will phase out the ability for Canadians to accept USD and deposit funds directly to Canadian banks offering "US fund" accounts (that are not technically US bank accounts)?
Currently, a Canadian business can accept $USD with Stripe and have it deposited directly into a Canadian US fund account without conversion to CAD.
Stripes competitors can't do this - and have traditionally told Canadian businesses that they would have to incorporate in the US, setup a USD bank account at a US institution, in order to accept USD without conversion back to CAD.
That process is what Stripe Atlas simplifies.
PayPal allows Canadians to accept USD by holding the funds in a USD PayPal account. However, getting the funds to a Canadian bank account always involves converting to CAD.
This is complementary functionality: you can choose whether you want to incorporate locally or using Atlas. We'll stay supporting CA-USD and will be expanding local-country support. We recently launched private beta support for businesses in new countries like Brazil, Mexico, and Singapore, in fact: https://stripe.com/global
And that conversion is expensive. If I could have back the currency conversion margins PayPal has charged my businesses throughout my life, I'd easily be able to live for a year on that money.
Well, 50 weeks, if it were sent to my PayPal account in US dollars :)
You can open a US bank account (I use Harris Bank, since they're owned by BMO) and withdraw USD from paypal to there. I then write a cheque to move USD across the border, and use VBCE to convert USD to CAD at market - 35 basis points (aka. about 2% better than what Paypal offers).
> I then write a cheque to move USD across the border, and use VBCE to convert USD to CAD at market - 35 basis points (aka. about 2% better than what Paypal offers).
I would think using Norbert's gambit with a discount broker would be the cheapest way to convert large amounts of currency (e.g. buy DLR-U.TO, sell DLR.TO.)
Norbert's gambit is good, but not free - you still lose about 20 bp to market spreads using DLR.TO. If I was moving more money I would use that (possibly with a more heavily traded stock) but the marginal advantage wouldn't be worthwhile for my volume.
That is exactly what I was thinking. Though I am not sure how Stripe will be able to focus on both these schlep problems considering their work isn't finished yet (expanding to all countries).
Expanding to more countries will be a problem. Take India for instance. Tons of regulations and you cannot do a recurring charge. It's easier for Stripe to get people to incorporate in the US and become their customer rather than try to expand to India, comply with all the crazy laws, and then accept Indian customers.
This is huge. As someone who is involved in the digital nomad community here in Chiang Mai, Thailand - getting incorporation and processing set up for a lot of people here is very difficult.
Although places like Thailand are a great place for independent bootstrapping and there’s a solid network of entrepreneurs - one of the biggest hurdles is incorporation, banking and acquiring. This is taken for granted when you’re living in a first world country - but for the new location independent entrepreneur who is building their startup from cafes or coworking spaces in Chiang Mai to Ho Chi Minh or Medellin, getting a corporation, processing and a bank account structured is often a huge problem.
You don't need the US for that though. You can incorporate for example in Hong Kong with ease and even better tax advanteges.
For digital nomads in Thailand I think the bigger problem is that they can't get long term visas and are effectively breaking the law unless they somehow work for a local company which isn't easy as those need 4 Thais employed for every foreigner.
And even if you could get a corporate bank account here, the banks usually don't have good connections to other countries and the systems they use are not exactly flexible. Plus the bank staff usually doesn't know jack shit about anything.
Thailand is great for the food, climate, cheap living costs and culture. But it's really bad for foreigners who want to start a digital business.
Hong Kong is a great place to incorporate for tax advantages, but a terrible place for getting merchant processing or a bank account.
Remote openings are not possible. You can fly to Hong Kong and open a bank account in person, and they may (or may not) open one for you - but getting payment processing for a Hong Kong corporation with no processing history is basically impossible for the average person.
I have a Hong Kong company and I know many people who also have Hong Kong companies, and I speak from experience.
As for your other points about Thailand, you’d be wrong about that also - Thailand has no problem with you working independently or from coffee shops at all, it is not against the law and getting long term visas or even self-funded work permits for long stays is trivial.
As for companies, you can set up a BOI company for technology corps which is tax exempt for the first 8 years and the 4 thais for every foreigner rule is not applied, as I have.
However, in a round about way you have proved my point - living in these types of locations is preferable, but doing business here is usually not. Hence, why people incorporate elsewhere and the Stripe Atlas product nails it.
I have not found it difficult to get a corporate bank account and merchant account in the past in Hong Kong with HSBC. Yes you have to go there in person but I don't see this as a big deal. We had CC processing and your agents should have contacts to get you set up. Things might have changed in recent years.
And no I am not wrong. If you don't have a work permit which you get by working for a Thai company, you are breaking the law as you are not allowed to work without a permit. Full stop. I have not said that working out of a coffeeshop is illegal.
Long term visa again only by working for a local company. And if you go for the fake 4 Thais emploees route, sure that can work but you can get into trouble anyways because you are effectively working around the law.
Setting up a Bord of Investors company is not a trivial thing. It can take up to half a year, you'll have to pass the interview at the HQ in BKK and show some real company prospects. This is not something for someone who does web design or coding for some foreign company out of his condo in Chiang Mai. It's for people who want to build a real physical business in Thailand.
Much easier to incorporate somewhere else.
Yeah, things have changed in recent years in HK. HSBC HK has a horrible reputation now and they are very resistant to do corporate account openings and prefer your company is resident or doing business in HK.
Regarding long stay visas in Thailand - as I said, getting a long term visa or work permit is very simple you can do it through a company who will sponsor you for a modest fee. If you are interested I can provide you with links.
My BOI did take some time, you are right, but the process was relatively simple as I used an agency - but totally worth it.
Yes - much easier to incorporate somewhere else. Your experience with HK/HSBC opening a merchant account is simply not a reality anymore for the majority of people, particularly without processing history, nor is it in other countries using HK.
Anyway, this product offering from Stripe is a genuine game changer for people who want to operate from the US, want a business in a box and want to set it up remotely. I know many, many people who will jump on it.
>> Yeah, things have changed in recent years in HK. HSBC HK has a horrible reputation now and they are very resistant to do corporate account openings and prefer your company is resident or doing business in HK.
Good to know. Though it's kinda sad as HK really used to be a great place for business. I've seen similar changes in
>> Regarding long stay visas in Thailand - as I said, getting a long term visa or work permit is very simple you can do it through a company who will sponsor you for a modest fee. If you are interested I can provide you with links.
Yea but many such offerings are just circumventing the law and here in the south at least a couple of these companies got into trouble. And by trouble I mean the usual extortion by immigration/police.
Especially companies with nominees that hold the other 51% for you are getting more and more attention.
>> My BOI did take some time, you are right, but the process was relatively simple as I used an agency - but totally worth it.
Hehe the typical Thai way. Find someone (agency) who knows someone that makes the decision. Pay the agent a "service fee" from which a nice chunk goes to the official to incentivize a smooth process :)
>> Yes - much easier to incorporate somewhere else. Your experience with HK/HSBC opening a merchant account is simply not a reality anymore for the majority of people, particularly without processing history, nor is it in other countries using HK.
Again said to hear.
>> Anyway, this product offering from Stripe is a genuine game changer for people who want to operate from the US, want a business in a box and want to set it up remotely. I know many, many people who will jump on it.
Undoubtedly the offering from Stripe will be helpful for many people. Somehow I get the feeling that the US pushed other countries hard to make incorporation and especially bank account opening much harder in the guise of fighting terrorism and crime while itself trying to make it simpler. An interesting economic strategy.
> If you are interested I can provide you with links.
Yes, please.
Also may I ask, what's your view of Singapore as a jurisdiction for digital nomad incorporation? Braintree already supports it for payments, and Stripe is in "private beta"...
It's really cheap and easy to incorporate in the UK. Costs £15 and takes ten minutes [1]
The downside, if you care about such things, is that the company register [2] is freely available online too, so it's not one to go for if privacy is your goal.
Of course, never a HN thread about remote working without a Thailand subthread!
> in Thailand I think the bigger problem is that they can't get long term visas
To put this in perspective though, the longest visa I've ever seen here was a 3-year non-working business visa - effectively it's meant for people who regularly travel to Thailand for business meetings/etc but don't regularly "work" here (I know how stupid that sounds).
Other than that, the maximum visa for anything is 12 months. So while the 30/60/90 day stays are not great if you're doing a dodgy and working on a tourist visa, having a business visa + work permit is hardly a barrel of laughs. A Marriage visa is marginally easier, but obviously implies that you have a thai spouse.
> Thailand is great for the food, climate, cheap living costs and culture. But it's really bad for foreigners who want to start a digital business.
Having lived in several parts of Australia and operating as a sole-trader (similar to a single person LLC in the US I guess?), honestly the hassles to live + work in Thailand are a PITA but IMO they're worth it.
i can also vouch for this. I founded and ran a software company in Thailand for 8 years, and regret doing it the "right" way (incorporated) because of the administrative burdens associated with taxation. Additionally due to US banking laws (anti terror yadda yadda) it is very difficult to do business on the internet unless you have a bank account in the USA (or perhaps EU etc.. just an account somewhere besides Thailand).
Yup it's really frustrating and ineffective to form a company here in Thailand. They really don't want all that startup money even though they could really make use of it.
Try Hong Kong, Singapore or other stable and modern countries with rule of law. You wont have much trouble doing online business.
> due to US banking laws (anti terror yadda yadda) it is very difficult to do business on the internet unless you have a bank account in the USA
Can you expand on what you mean by this some more?
I operated from Australia as a sole trader (similar to single person LLC in the US I believe?) and I'm now the Director of a Thai Limited Company. In neither case did I have a "US" bank account.
With literally one exception in.. 8 years, I've always been paid by clients via bank-to-bank Wire Transfers (the one exception used TransferWise). I've never had any issue with payments not arriving/not being processed?
In the last 12 months I've been using my Thai bank's NYC branch to allow US clients to make an ACH payment, and the NYC branch of my bank then handles the transfer back to Thailand.
Are you talking about B2B payments or consumer payments?
Unrelated but i'll be in Chiang Mai next month for a couple of days, could you give some names of interesting cafe/coworking space there? I'll be with my gf (a designer) that is also interested in digital nomadism so would be great to meet people doing that
Hate to tell you this but you chose the worst time of year to come. Google “Burning Season Chiang Mai” - I’d recommend sticking to the south of Thailand, particularly the islands, and then come up around April 10 for Songkran. Punspace is the big coworking space, I’d recommend booking a place in Nimman and trying the various cafes there. Kaweh is a good spot if its not too busy.
Yup, ignore anyone who understates the problem (some prominent voices in the nomad forums are either in denial or have a vested interest), it is absolutely lethal during March and April. I love Chiang Mai but will be leaving on Friday night, probably returning mid-May.
I can totally relate to your experience, and this is exactly why I started building a startup one year ago with 2 partners with this exact same goal:
Help companies get online ASAP, company incorporation, facilitate business bank accounts opening, negotiate excellent deals when it comes to online transaction fees and so on. We can also help integrate virtually any payment service provider in your IT system.
We'd love to hear from the issues you encountered and would happily provide you with advice, or more in-depth accompaniment.
Just drop me an email at t+stripe-atlas-HN [at] mekloud.com and we'll get back to you!
There's some really misleading information on that site. Tax rates are misleading and just plain wrong in some cases. I'd take information on that site with a pound of salt.
For my company in Australia, I'm thinking of making a US subsidiary because it's the easiest way to get a US bank account, so I don't have to pay fees from Stripe for currency conversion to accept US dollars. Also, it would let me accept ACH payments from US customers which is nice.
Next, as I'm doing some hardware stuff and buy parts from distributors in the US, it could save more in currency conversion rates there as well. Just need to talk to someone about how to do that legally (transfer pricing).
If I use Atlas, I'll probably wait for them to support LLCs because I think that would be a lot better for my uses.
Finally, incorporating the business in the US would good for founders wanting to take funds from US investors (but my startup is bootstrapped so I'm not really interested in that).
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[ 4.5 ms ] story [ 305 ms ] threadNow I read about this Atlas, what a hypocrisy...
I happily use PayPal since then.
It would be hypocrisy if they claimed one thing and then did/acted another. Non-US bank accounts are listed in their FAQ and their general policy (not supported, use a US bankaccount as proxy) remains the same.
I hope Stripe changes their policy in the future (though you would have to rename your HN username then).
> Pay a registered agent located in Delaware to act as a liaison between your company and the state. Stripe will set you up with a registered agent at a rate of $125 per year. (The first year’s fee is covered by Stripe.)
> File an annual report with Delaware, which costs $50.
> Pay an annual Franchise Tax to the state of Delaware—a minimum of $175 per year.
> Pay federal income tax on income generated in the U.S.
https://stripe.com/atlas/faq#Are-there-any-additional-costs-...
Is Stripe getting a cut of the eventual revenue from the service providers that are providing the offerings? What's the incentive on their side? Or are they just hoping to scrape by on the transaction fee revenue (which are way less than people think they are because they pay out most of it upstream[1]).
Also, what's the expiration on the $15K of AWS credits? The usual one year or longer?
[1]: If you're wondering why just think about how you get "1% cash back on all purchases!".
The most amazing this here is obviously the automatic bank account integration. The last time I set up a SVB account I had to drive to their Santa Clara office, meet someone, convince them I'm not a hack fraud (lol, tricked them on that one), then fax over paperwork, then wait a week for things to get enabled. Just a lot of friction before even getting started on the real goal of setting up a business account for accepting iOS platform payments. (side note: let's hope the SVB web interface has gotten better since then. last I checked, it felt like a scaled up 1996 web app... kinda awful all over, but it got the job done.)
This offering does sound like it's more focused on helping non-US people to just start processing US payments easier and not expressly around startups (a la clerkly). It skips some startup-isms we all know and love (83b forms not expressly mentioned, does it allocate "startup levels" of default stock during incorporation, etc), and a big thing not mentioned: it doesn't register you as a foreign entity in a non-delaware state. You'll get a nastygram from your state tax office if you don't register as a local foreign entity (they'll scrape IRS details about you to figure out which companies exist in their state but aren't registered). Registering as a foreign entity is different for every state (more fees) and sometimes more BS ("you must notify the public of your new corporation by paying for notices in two (2) newspapers for six (6) weeks to complete this process" (that could be just for actual corporations and not foreign registrations though)).
Looks like an amazing offering overall, and it's always amusing to see how AWS throws credits all over the place. If Google could wise up to it (assuming it's not an Amazon promotional exclusivity contract), they should be throwing 4x-10x AWS-sized credits at all the same targets too.
Both systems are ways to get you bootstrapped as quickly as possible, but you should always lawyer up to verify the rest. The clerkly offerings go a bit deeper into employment/contracts, and Stripe could actually knock those out too by adding just a few more template forms over the next few months.
(not affiliated with either, just keeping up with the quickest/easiest/legalist ways to start organizations as hassle free as possible)
Clerky's more of a full-package solution from the legal side of things (but obviously not on the banking / payments side).
There's also no need to apply for Clerky - anyone can just sign up and get it done immediately.
The whole "apply" stage is probably just because it's a new service. Don't want to have 10,000 people jumping on your as-yet-unproven process without a gating mechanism.
Would the company that Stripe help register in the US be a subsidiary of my existing company (not registered in the US)?
The corporation we help you setup in the US would be a new entity.
1. It's ridiculous to incorporate in the US, due to ridiculous tax policies; and
2. It's a great way to upset local tax authorities + there are probably a ton of nasty side effects (e.g. some countries have "see through" taxation that taxes certain profits arriving in foreign entities at the shareholder level, or require board meetings to be held in the jurisdiction the company is based in, etc etc)
If you do this, make sure to get advice from local counsel, or it could end up being a very expensive exercise
What are these ridiculous tax policies? I've often heard complaints about US taxes for citizens/residents, but nothing yet for companies... (I realize that many companies choose to incorporate in tax havens to evade taxes; but I'm mainly interested in knowing how is incorporating in the US worse than incorporating in e.g. UK, Switzerland, Japan, Australia, Germany, France)
Second, the US is very aggressive when it comes to withholding taxes (FATCA and all) - if you’re a shareholder living in a country without a decent tax treaty with the US, you’ll lose an extra 30% on any dividend you declare, unless you include intermediary structures such as holding companies etc
Now, some of these might not matter that much to a startup since they aren’t making a profit anyway. But if you build something profitable it will be relevant for an acquirer. If things are set up properly to pay less tax, they will pay more for your company.
To me, this makes sense. Is this different to what other countries do? Although the corporate tax does seem rather high...
The problem is when you want to get money out of that company, to your home country. You'll have to pay taxes in your home country... Unless you take the plane with a suitcase full of cash once in a while.
Being from outside the US, it's hard to start a company there and create a bank account without spending thousands of dollars to travel there.
"We expect Atlas to be most beneficial for entrepreneurs who have a global customer base, plan to raise money from global investors, or who plan to build an operational presence in the U.S.
While incorporating in the U.S. can make many things much easier, it also comes with long-term legal and tax implications. You should think carefully about whether it’s best for your business and consult advisors as necessary.
(Please note that there are a number of business categories that we can’t support in the U.S.)"
Not for foreigners, for people who want to have a US operations, raise money, or have customers in the US. I think ops, raising money, or having us customers is the right order to think of it too.
Nowerdays it's becoming increasingly a better idea to incorporate in a different country than the US if you can, especially for online businesses including privacy, tax and ease of doing business.
https://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Clas...
I'm very aware that US citizenship comes with legal hurdles when dealing with foreign banks, especially in Europe - but I'm not aware of any such issues with non-US citizens merely owning a US business entity.
Generally, indications that a natural person may be a "US person" include[0]:
* A U.S. place of birth
* Identification of the Account Holder as a U.S. citizen or resident
* A current U.S. residence or mailing address (including a U.S. PO box)
* A current U.S. telephone number
* Standing instructions to pay amounts from a foreign (meaning non U.S.) account to an account maintained in the United States
* A current power of attorney or signatory authority granted to a person with a U.S. address
* A U.S. "in-care-of" or "hold mail" address that is the sole address with respect to the account holder
* Special note: Others affected by FATCA include any non U.S. person who shares a joint account with a U.S. person or otherwise allows a U.S. person to have signatory authority on the account.
* Any business or not for profit organization that allows a U.S. person to have signatory authority on a financial account.
They're basically looking for Americans and permanent residents who have foreign accounts so that they can report the accounts to the US Gov.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance...
To be clear, in Canada, my understanding is that it's very hard to get a bank account as a US person unless actually in Canada. But top banks and some credit unions are prepared to handle FATCA-required forms and reporting.
Big difference too between foreigners with US interests and actual US persons with foreign interests, I would think...
So any tourist who's bought a pre-paid SIM at an airport is an "US person", and probably therefore filled out a form or two incorrectly? (Or even illegally?)
Doing business in the US? Do it as an American entity! We're institutionally equipped to deal with companies from 50 jurisdictions but as soon as you say GMBH or Euro we get very confused. US companies have huge logistical difficulties doing international payments relative to domestic payments; you can find a company with $50 million in the bank whose CFO literally had no button available to her that could possibly authorize an international wire. Many routine acts of commerce will require a number from you which any US entity can get by sneezing and which a foreign entity will take months of effort to achieve. We have a variety of cultures nationwide; essentially none of them routinely interact with foreign corporate entities and essentially all of whom will view those interactions with caution and annoyance rather than the routinely extended trust and assumption of fair dealing that all domestic entities enjoy by default.
You will be in great company! (Ba dum bum?) Substantially every German and Canadian major corporation, and hundreds of thousands of natural German and Canadian people, choose to use a Us entity so that they can conveniently interface with public and private US institutions when their business dealings bring them to the United States.
I run a service-oriented business with 10 employees in the UK and most of our income is from US-based corporations. Externally we work entirely in USD. Once we determined our tax and legal positions, we've not encountered any problems with payments, wires, forms (W-8BENI is accepted in place of W-9s), or taxes, and our customer roster is a couple hundred tech companies - ranging from F500s with arcane vendor account requirements, through to mid range companies, startups, and small ISVs.
Trade between the UK and US is common and, depending on what you are trading, has a low amount of friction due to the UK's relatively open nature and low level of bureaucracy on matters of banking, international trade and taxation.
(If you sell physical items, need to take on US-based staff, start a US office, are a low margin business that couldn't take exposure to exchange rates or cross-border tax volatility, or need to appeal to US investors, disregard the above and get a US entity! :-))
Doesn't that add an extra tax burden?
Wondering if Atlas could be used to "port" successful internet business models to "foreign" locales? Setting up a Flipkart in Morocco, or a Youku for Samoans...
And accepting debit cards (especially US cards) is still quite hard in most of the world afaik, aside from the UK, so this is a godsend to any entrepreneurs who want a real chance at success.
This was actually the dream just half a decade ago, to incorporate in the US without having to actually get a visa and go there and easily conduct business with anyone in the world...
Nowadays, it's not as pressing, but still a great service imo...
The neglected payment methods are the country specific ones. Some major countries have very low credit-card penetration, for example in the Netherlands. The common internet payment method there is iDEAL which is a kind of two factor authenticated bank transfer. Even debit cards in the Netherlands have two distinguishing features: there isn't a PAN number on the card which makes it impossible[0] to use online in the way you'd use an embossed Visa/MasterCard, and the Dutch banks all issue their debit cards under the Maestro and V-Pay schemes.
[0] Not really, but very few people know what their debit card's PAN number is. It's possible to calculate the hidden PAN number as it's usually just a regular Maestro card, or to just scan it off the card using NFC and an appropriate app.
> We strongly recommend that you work with tax and legal experts to handle these ongoing requirements. To help, Atlas users get direct access to resources and guidance from Orrick and PwC. You can also chat over the phone for free with a professional from PwC.
^ from the FAQ, should be in bold characters on the home page.
"tax on income generated in the U.S.", what does income generated in the U.S. means? Good luck finding an easy answer to this which will satisfy both your local jurisdiction and the U.S. PwC and the likes thrive because the tax code is a complicated beast that just get bigger every year.
Apart from raising money in the US, as a Canadian company, I don't see any advantage to this.
The amount of knowledge needed to deal with those issues clearly makes it suited to experienced entrepreneurs with the means to get good counselling.
My guess, it's designed for YC founders. :)
freight, customs and last mile are the most expensive and complicated factors of global physical ecommerce.
where is the stripe solution to simplify that?
Don't forget that many other countries would still regard the "Stripe Atlas company" as taxable in their local country if the company is actually run from the local country or has offices in the local country. So from day one you would have to deal with international taxation, double taxation etc.
If you don't want that feature, why complain about Stripe - just incorporate and get a bank account in Honduras or wherever you think it is most useful to your business.
Incorporating in the US, for example, allows companies to issue stock to employees, makes it easy to raise money from global investors, and provides the stability of clear corporate rules and case law. (This is why 60% of the Fortune 500 are incorporated in Delaware). There are also many more business services available to US companies than might otherwise be available to companies based in smaller countries with emerging economies.
So while you're right that there are taxes and other things that come into play when running a business, we find people are already coming up against these roadblocks today -- we built Atlas to reduce this complexity. We hope to see more businesses started because of this.
What I'm confused about is why they didn't focus more on the convenience advantages and positioned Atlas as a non-geo tied incorporation/setup offer. As many people have noted, the advantages of doing business as a U.S. company if you're not in the U.S. is unclear. It seems far more appropriate as a side note to the much needed advantages of solving a legal, financial, and accounting nightmare just to get payments. Why emphasize international?
Used WU before to send money to myself when my debit card chip was broken and it would've taken too long for an replacement to ship. No issues at all.
(Cost was even lower than what my bank would've charged for an express replacement card, but of course quite high.)
So what does that mean? No credit cards online, no bank transfers, no PayPal, and so on. I hope this service can somehow help aspiring local entrepreneurs.
Must be a headache legally tho
You will need a lawyer, or at least a good accountant, to get the taxes right: pay what you owe in the US and in BR, avoiding at all possible double taxation.
Currently, a Canadian business can accept $USD with Stripe and have it deposited directly into a Canadian US fund account without conversion to CAD.
Stripes competitors can't do this - and have traditionally told Canadian businesses that they would have to incorporate in the US, setup a USD bank account at a US institution, in order to accept USD without conversion back to CAD.
That process is what Stripe Atlas simplifies.
PayPal allows Canadians to accept USD by holding the funds in a USD PayPal account. However, getting the funds to a Canadian bank account always involves converting to CAD.
Well, 50 weeks, if it were sent to my PayPal account in US dollars :)
Transferwise might be cheaper/easier
http://paulgraham.com/schlep.html
And they should make a Chinese landing page.
Although places like Thailand are a great place for independent bootstrapping and there’s a solid network of entrepreneurs - one of the biggest hurdles is incorporation, banking and acquiring. This is taken for granted when you’re living in a first world country - but for the new location independent entrepreneur who is building their startup from cafes or coworking spaces in Chiang Mai to Ho Chi Minh or Medellin, getting a corporation, processing and a bank account structured is often a huge problem.
For digital nomads in Thailand I think the bigger problem is that they can't get long term visas and are effectively breaking the law unless they somehow work for a local company which isn't easy as those need 4 Thais employed for every foreigner. And even if you could get a corporate bank account here, the banks usually don't have good connections to other countries and the systems they use are not exactly flexible. Plus the bank staff usually doesn't know jack shit about anything.
Thailand is great for the food, climate, cheap living costs and culture. But it's really bad for foreigners who want to start a digital business.
Remote openings are not possible. You can fly to Hong Kong and open a bank account in person, and they may (or may not) open one for you - but getting payment processing for a Hong Kong corporation with no processing history is basically impossible for the average person.
I have a Hong Kong company and I know many people who also have Hong Kong companies, and I speak from experience.
As for your other points about Thailand, you’d be wrong about that also - Thailand has no problem with you working independently or from coffee shops at all, it is not against the law and getting long term visas or even self-funded work permits for long stays is trivial.
As for companies, you can set up a BOI company for technology corps which is tax exempt for the first 8 years and the 4 thais for every foreigner rule is not applied, as I have.
However, in a round about way you have proved my point - living in these types of locations is preferable, but doing business here is usually not. Hence, why people incorporate elsewhere and the Stripe Atlas product nails it.
Cheers
And no I am not wrong. If you don't have a work permit which you get by working for a Thai company, you are breaking the law as you are not allowed to work without a permit. Full stop. I have not said that working out of a coffeeshop is illegal.
Long term visa again only by working for a local company. And if you go for the fake 4 Thais emploees route, sure that can work but you can get into trouble anyways because you are effectively working around the law.
Setting up a Bord of Investors company is not a trivial thing. It can take up to half a year, you'll have to pass the interview at the HQ in BKK and show some real company prospects. This is not something for someone who does web design or coding for some foreign company out of his condo in Chiang Mai. It's for people who want to build a real physical business in Thailand. Much easier to incorporate somewhere else.
Regarding long stay visas in Thailand - as I said, getting a long term visa or work permit is very simple you can do it through a company who will sponsor you for a modest fee. If you are interested I can provide you with links.
My BOI did take some time, you are right, but the process was relatively simple as I used an agency - but totally worth it.
Yes - much easier to incorporate somewhere else. Your experience with HK/HSBC opening a merchant account is simply not a reality anymore for the majority of people, particularly without processing history, nor is it in other countries using HK.
Anyway, this product offering from Stripe is a genuine game changer for people who want to operate from the US, want a business in a box and want to set it up remotely. I know many, many people who will jump on it.
Yes, please.
Also may I ask, what's your view of Singapore as a jurisdiction for digital nomad incorporation? Braintree already supports it for payments, and Stripe is in "private beta"...
The downside, if you care about such things, is that the company register [2] is freely available online too, so it's not one to go for if privacy is your goal.
[1] https://www.gov.uk/register-a-company-online
[2] https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/
> in Thailand I think the bigger problem is that they can't get long term visas
To put this in perspective though, the longest visa I've ever seen here was a 3-year non-working business visa - effectively it's meant for people who regularly travel to Thailand for business meetings/etc but don't regularly "work" here (I know how stupid that sounds).
Other than that, the maximum visa for anything is 12 months. So while the 30/60/90 day stays are not great if you're doing a dodgy and working on a tourist visa, having a business visa + work permit is hardly a barrel of laughs. A Marriage visa is marginally easier, but obviously implies that you have a thai spouse.
> Thailand is great for the food, climate, cheap living costs and culture. But it's really bad for foreigners who want to start a digital business.
Having lived in several parts of Australia and operating as a sole-trader (similar to a single person LLC in the US I guess?), honestly the hassles to live + work in Thailand are a PITA but IMO they're worth it.
Try Hong Kong, Singapore or other stable and modern countries with rule of law. You wont have much trouble doing online business.
Can you expand on what you mean by this some more?
I operated from Australia as a sole trader (similar to single person LLC in the US I believe?) and I'm now the Director of a Thai Limited Company. In neither case did I have a "US" bank account.
With literally one exception in.. 8 years, I've always been paid by clients via bank-to-bank Wire Transfers (the one exception used TransferWise). I've never had any issue with payments not arriving/not being processed?
In the last 12 months I've been using my Thai bank's NYC branch to allow US clients to make an ACH payment, and the NYC branch of my bank then handles the transfer back to Thailand.
Are you talking about B2B payments or consumer payments?
Help companies get online ASAP, company incorporation, facilitate business bank accounts opening, negotiate excellent deals when it comes to online transaction fees and so on. We can also help integrate virtually any payment service provider in your IT system.
We'd love to hear from the issues you encountered and would happily provide you with advice, or more in-depth accompaniment.
Just drop me an email at t+stripe-atlas-HN [at] mekloud.com and we'll get back to you!
If you look at https://Incorporations.IO - you'll see that Delaware isn't even in the top 10 places to setup a company.
Next, as I'm doing some hardware stuff and buy parts from distributors in the US, it could save more in currency conversion rates there as well. Just need to talk to someone about how to do that legally (transfer pricing).
If I use Atlas, I'll probably wait for them to support LLCs because I think that would be a lot better for my uses.
Finally, incorporating the business in the US would good for founders wanting to take funds from US investors (but my startup is bootstrapped so I'm not really interested in that).