Ask HN: Helping a dev who drinks?
Basically, he's an alcoholic. He's in his mid 50s. He wasn't always like this. He started drinking a lot when some of his family members died unexpectedly in an accident.
The thing is, when he is drinking, he can code things that no one else on staff can do quickly. For example, he once implemented a hash table in about an hour because we had a platform that did not have a C++11 compiler (no unordered set) and needed that data structure.
It's kind of frightening to stand behind him, watch him run vi and start editing code. Inside, I'm terrified that he's going to make a mistake. I'm thinking that he should not be touching code when he's like this. But as he starts to edit the files, it's somewhat amazing. I and the others stand and watch in awe as he types so fast we can barely follow. It's not that we don't understand what he's doing, it's that he's typing so fast. Then, he compiles it and it works as expected and he tells us about a few possible issues, etc. and leaves.
We have to get him a ride home, help him walk to the door and have an intern walk him to his apartment so that he doesn't go in the wrong place. Then, a few days later, he comes back to the office like nothing has happened.
He's a really nice person. Very polite and self deprecating always giving credit to others on the team and mentoring the young guys (he's not an ass). We want to keep him on staff and we need his knowledge and all the guys love him. Just not sure how to approach him about this issue.
Has anyone else dealt with a similar situation?
70 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 40.2 ms ] threadhttp://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_bigbook_chapt7.pdf
(YMMV of course.)
Edit: It is season 2 episode 10 and I am going to watch it asap.
To me it seems great that you are helping him by not allowing him to drive, etc. especially if he is a nice person, but I would think that this might be a a little off your reach.
I'm definitely not trying to discourage you but at least where I live, people take it very personal when you try to talk with them about issues/addictions they might have, so I might be biased, but as harsh as this sounds I don't think you can push him too much on this. His grief is probably (and understandably so) too much to bear.
The only thing that comes to mind is going to a psychologist/psychiatrist specialized in addictions and ask him for some advice on how to approach him.
In any case, good luck. It seems terrible to me that he has to suffer through this and it's really nice that you want to help him. Just be careful on not stepping into something you might not be prepared nor trained to deal with.
I think it's crazy that you'd facilitate his drinking by driving him home, walking him around with an intern... If I were a manager id have a chat with him
As opposed to what? letting him endanger his life and potentially those of others?
I don't think that at this point that's facilitating his drinking. The guy will clearly keep drinking regardless of his coworkers. Facilitating him would be letting him get drunk just so he can code faster and meet the deadlines or something like that.
>If I were a manager id have a chat with him
And have a chat about what? I don't think that someone with that level of addiction will just hear you out and say "oh yeah, he's right, I'll change my ways". And if you fire him you will probably just make things worse, thus the OP's question on how to handle this without just throwing him off at the curb.
By having an intern help him around, by driving him home, then you are facilitating his drinking. You're basically saying "It's ok to come to work drunk, we'll support you if you do".
What I'm saying is that if this is a regular occurrence, you should put your foot down and say "No, don't come to work drunk, it's not OK". If he ends up in the curb because he favours his drinking over his work / life then that's his choice.
I'm not saying fire his ass, I'm saying have a chat to him. A good manager will know how to do this. It's not a "You need help" talk, but it's a "We've noticed this behaviour, what's going on?" talk.
If you don't have this talk, and continue to drive him home then you are facilitating his drinking, you're basically saying it's OK.
That's part of the reason this is such a tricky issue I think. But phrased like that, I do agree with you that there should be a limit at some point.
However being the one to enforce that... well, that just sucks.
I guess what I'm saying is that it'll take a friend to help him get through it. If one of your colleagues spends time with him outside work, perhaps they can help you understand what the senior developer is going through.
The other option is to cut down on alcohol in the office, but whilst that's the simplest solution it might cause other issues.
Then again, I've seen many claims of playing pool better when drunk, and that's definitely not true.
Look yes, he needs help (i know this, as i am also going through a drinking problem - probably should switch account before saying this but meh - im speaking to friends for help though), but at the same time, its HIS problem.
If the op is trying to help a friend - which i think he is (and a lot of replies seem to miss), then try and speak to him outside of work - maybe on a friday(if not working sat) join him for a few, and see if he opens up.
You will be amazed how much that helps sometimes(although judging from what i can on how serious this is, its probably not going to be enough). Its a start though.
As for telling HR - gods no. As far as i have seen, HR is there to protect the company, and i would worry for him personally if laid off.
He is going to need help, but its his choice, from a co-worker point of view, the best i could advise is trying to speak to him outside of work, and try and find a way to talk to him about it - see what he thinks.
My emails in my profile if you want to ask anything about someone going through this, or with follow up questions etc.
In alcoholism, an important concept is 'enabling', where you are making it easier for the person with alcoholism to continue with their habit. You are enabling your co-worker to continue drinking by giving him rides home, having interns walk him to the correct apartment, and allowing him to commit code while he is clearly under the influence.
Your manager should be setting the boundaries in the workplace regarding alcohol, but the best thing you can do as a co-worker is to be there as a friend and to listen. Take a break from the screen and step outdoors and have a conversation, because it sounds like this person is really struggling with a difficult chapter in his life right now.
This is what managers and HR is for. If you're uncomfortable bringing up the issue, explain to HR and have them present it as "we want to help you" and not that "you're in trouble". Depends how good your managers and HR are. It's probably best for everyone that he can move forward with his alcoholism, even for himself.
I'm not throwing my hat on either option, but I am highlighting that this option has consequences you need to be prepared for. (Ok, they both have consequences)
What I have found, are lots of organizations that suffer because they allow a tyrant to exploit the imposter syndrome of those around them.
What you have here is a shitty manager who is holding his company back and putting it at serious risk by not remedying a serious problem. It's exploitative, demoralizing, and entirely unnecessary.
Get this guy some help before he dies. And fire your miscreant of a manager.
First, I'd want you to tell me about the issue (if I wasn't aware of it already). Have you told your boss? What was his reaction?
Second, after I was told, to be quite candid, I'd be put in a tough position. If this guy is getting loaded at work, people know about it to the point where they're giving him rides, IANAL but that's a huge liability. He does something while drunk and that's coming back on the company. And the problem isn't that I'm a greedy asshole who doesn't want to get sued, it's that if I get sued then you and probably a few other people are going to lose their jobs. Depending on the size of the company a suit could destroy it.
Third, all those things considered, I have to intervene to protect this fellow, you and your colleagues and the company. That doesn't mean fire someone, that means a serious come to Jesus with this guy with the goal being to find a way to get him through this. Underwrite counseling/rehab/whatever is needed.
So...lots of words to get to this: you gotta go up the chain. This isn't your responsibility, unless you are the boss.
This is the most reasonable response I've seen so far.
And if the person in question happens to read this, or someone is in a similar situation regarding drinking, please know that there are other ways to quit other than AA. AA seems to work great for some people, but not for others, no matter how hard they try. By all means try AA, but if it doesn't work for you, know that there are alternatives.
By way of alternatives, there is Rational Recovery, SMART Recovery, the former of which I've had success with. For spiritual/religious people, there is church. I even know a former extremely hardcore alcoholic (used to drink with her) with a secondary opiate addiction who enrolled in a methadone maintenance program and hasn't had a drink since she started the program some 10 years ago.
(I would advise anyone who has decided they have a drinking problem to avoid any type of "moderation management" program. Just my personal opinion, but the only way I've seen people I would consider to be actual alcoholics succeed is through complete abstinence.)
It's hard, but it can be done. Just keep trying different options.
The guy will implode. The smart move is to figure out how to get rid of him.
From the first angle, I believe (and others might disagree) that you have an obligation to offer as much support to this person within your capabilities. Understand however that there is nothing you can do to change them - they have to determine that it is a problem that they need to fix. This person KNOWS that they have a problem. Hallmark of an alcoholic is denial - but rest assured they know that it's a problem.
So then how do you help? Well it all depends on the situation. Your team hovering over in amazement while they code certainly doesn't help as it just feeds the idea that "I'm at my best when I'm drunk." Which is clearly temporally bounded.
Unfortunately there is no single solution, and simply pointing you toward AL-ANON or AA is kind of the nuclear option in most cases. Also don't assume that this person cares about self preservation as much as you do. If they just lost all of their important connections, they are likely severely depressed, but my guess is that they are mostly LONELY.
You aren't going to solve that overnight, but it might be possible to find ways to reduce their loneliness. Ask them to dinner, go bowling, whatever it is that would be good. Depending on their personality this might work better as a group or as individuals YMMV.
Alternatively you could force the issue hard by letting them know that this is unacceptable behavior. This one is risky though because this usually further isolates the person and the outcome sometimes is very bad. In some cases it works, but you really have to know the person well.
On to the business side...
Your business partners need to determine what kind of liability this person is to accomplishment of the job broadly. Despite your Rainman like description, the fact that company resources (Even if voluntarily) are being placed on ferrying this person home for risk of life, is a major issue.
This can and will likely lead to resentment towards that person, which usually starts as a joke ("Who's taking barney home tonight" guffaw..) but in my experience turns into vitriol quickly ("I can't believe I have to help this asshole again"). In turn that will lead to trouble with team-dynamics and you can take it from there. No amount of rainman like coding can overcome everyone hating to work with you or the unpredictability of it.
If you or your partners need to issue an ultimatum to this person, that might help, but without other social support could also be isolating. This one has more eggshells on it because it's higher stakes.
If it were me I would offer this person a paid leave of absence, so they could go and be with other friends or family - or in lieu of that, find someone to augment their work and reduce their workload until they can get back on their feet, while keeping them in the office and socializing. Can your team afford that? No idea what your situation is, but if you value this person, then you'll figure out a way to do it.
Bottom line: Support, don't carry. Nudge, don't drag.
The thing is, when I am drinking, I can manage the pain of things that will never be okay, even though I must endure them. I don't advocate alcohol, but waking up screaming every morning isn't always an option. And I get to say "basically an alcoholic" because that's a euphemism for "functional alcoholic" which is a euphemism for "alcoholic," but because I can still do my job around people in their 20s, nobody complains, so I don't have to begin the regime of psychoactive drugs that don't guarantee any less liver damage than the alcohol. I can only hope I make it to my 50s, and in my 50s, I will not give one thought to what anyone thinks, because making it to 50 means I survived remembering my dead loved ones for 30 years, and that's good enough.
It sounds like it's not an issue for your business if he's killing code three sheets to Moby Dick and you can't spare a salaried employee to walk him home. If you care for him, as my family cares for me, you will do what they do, and say, "Are you okay? I wondered because you're drinking a lot," and he might say, "No, I'll never be okay, but if it's a problem I can work on it." Or he might say, "Yeah, I'm fine," even though he's not. Point is it doesn't sound like it's a professional issue, since you haven't fired him for drinking on the job, so his ability to code is a moot point. The question is not "How do I approach a talented employee who seems superhumanly talented when he's drunk but then we have to use unpaid company resources to manage him after hours?" The question is "How do I approach someone managing pain in a potentially long-term and self-destructive way?"
And that's not an HN question.
I can assure you that when/if you reach it, you won't at all feel that you "survived remembering my dead loved ones for 30 years, and that's good enough". You'll want to keep on living.
You may have kids, young or older - your own, your grandkids, whatever - or other family who do not want to see you gone.
I spent a night in a cardiac ward a few years ago. The other s in there were all 80+. They had great stories - one of them had a heart attack in his boat while reeling in a big fish. I got out the next day but the one thing that stayed with me was that even at 80, every one of those guys still desperately want to stay alive.
I can't think of any antidepressant or antipsychotic medication that is as bad for your body as the amount of alcohol it sounds like you're drinking.
Some alcohol is fine (probably even good for you), but if you think, "Maybe I drink too much." then you almost certainly drink too much. And that's really bad for you. It won't just screw up your health at age 50. It will hurt your cognitive abilities much sooner.
Honestly, it sounds like you're rationalizing. If you want a drug to distract yourself from psychological pain, there are far less damaging (and less expensive) options than alcohol. Please see a doctor about this. They can almost certainly help.
Anything you do is going to fuck him over. Don't believe someone at work (boss, HR) is going to turn his life into a disney movie of helping love and happy endings.
There are going to be mistakes that will let you know it's time to act. The first time you catch him doing a blunder that affects other people, take him aside and talk to him about it directly. Tell him you want him to enroll in some sort of treatment program.
After that, if he keeps causing negative outcomes for people, then you tell HR or the boss- which will get him fired, end of story. Don't let yourself believe some insane narrative like people are writing on here where the boss or HR will "help" him. He's just going to get fired. So, understand that before you make any moves in 'official' directions.
FWIW, someone I know has written the best code I've ever seen while wasted and high on an edible.