The report just confirms my gut on this issue. I had to stand all day when i worked retail during high school as well as undergrad and i couldn't fathom why people would think it's significantly better.
Well, most people that stand all day in retail actually harm their health.
The biggest problem is shoes: Most of those have heels that actually unbalances the body,the spine and muscles, specially women.
Heels are responsible for the biggest amount of accidents in the workplace, specially ankle sprains, also breaking rotulas when putting the heel on a hole.
Just one centimeter heel used for hours modifies the body because the body adapts to everything the same way that if you put mirrors in glasses, after a month the body adapts to inverted vision or if you put yourself glasses, the body adapts to the glasses.
I did this for about ~6 months and developed knees that ached all the time. I was running at the same time, so maybe that had something to do with it, but really I never noticed some huge health or energy shift.
The thing I will say about it though is that if you're tired, standing keeps you paying attention whereas sitting can make you slouch and relax. This is useful right after lunch, but all day? Save your legs the trouble and join a gym if it's your physical health you're worried about.
OMG the comments on that article... a significant chunk of the threads are talking about the freaking stock-photo model. when will I learn NEVER READ THE COMMENTS (whitelist=HN,Metafilter)
I like a standing desk. I have had chronic back problems aggravated by a slumping chair posture, and 100% standing for the last year or so has been (I feel) really helpful.
Except you can't compare the health benefits of standing vs sitting by comparing different jobs: those jobs have different salaries, populations, risks, and benefits which all have a say in health. Good luck trying to account for all of that to find causal evidence of sitting/standing's relation to health.
You won't be able to get ideal statistics this way (any large health study is hard) but you can still do lots to control for these sorts of things. It's not a new need.
Is anyone recommending standing all day long as an alternative, though? There are a number of middle-ground options, and studying people who stand all day long doesn't really help with evaluating those.
It makes intuitive sense that mixing postures and moving is the optimal approach.
>"no studies have confirmed that standing desks are correlated with positive health effects."
that depends on the definition of "positive health effects". Does reversing of problems created by 35+ years of sitting (since the first grade of elementary school in my case) counts? To me it does count. Has been standing for 10 months and some issues have either gone or noticeably improved.
This is where most people have misunderstanding here - when you're 20-somethig healthy guy, it doesn't matter whether you're sitting or standing (and thus no "positive health effects"). 20 years later - it does (and for some it means sitting is better, for some - standing).
Oh, don't get me wrong. I think sit-standing desks are a good thing - as I say, the scientific evidence strongly suggests they are, and my personal experience with them correlates with yours.
But if you're looking for peer-reviewed studies done by Proper Scientists with controls, p-values and so on, there aren't any good, conclusive ones yet. Which doesn't mean that you and I are talking rubbish - it just means there hasn't been enough time to formally evaluate the sit-stand desk yet.
>as they mention there are no good studies either way
Well, specifically, a scientist who wasn't involved in the meta-analysis opined this. My takeaway is that the emphatic and zealous testimonials that some users of standing/treadmill/pedalling/Dance-Dance-Revolution-pad desks offer are premature from a scientific standpoint.
I'll happily tout the benefits to me thank you very much!
My standing desk[1] has been a lifesaver in terms of minimizing my sciatica. I tried a few different (expensive) ergonomic chairs, but nothing has been as good for me as standing has.
Whether or not standing at a desk will make you live longer is irrelevant to me. As the other comments here confirm, for some of us the tangible benefits are obvious. Try it out for a few weeks and see how you make out.
Science is terrible at understanding long-term effects on complex systems (such as the human body). At some point you just have to listen to your intuition and evaluate things with a sample size of 1.
For me, buying an adjustable desk two years ago has been a fantastic investment. I usually spend the middle of the day sitting, but I love to stand right after breakfast (I get tired when I sit down in the morning) and when I play multiplayer games after dinner.
This. And even if the "average" person in a study works a certain way, you might just be one of the outliers. People vary a lot and you have to figure out what works for you.
>The extra calories you burn from standing over sitting for a day are barely enough to cover a couple of banana chips.
>"But you're going to burn more calories standing than sitting. I know it's not a tremendous amount." Still, he says, "those calories every day over many years will add up."
I feel like Carr's analysis was overly optimistic. Even in the aggregate, it seems really doubtful that 20 years of burning ~12 calories a day is anywhere near as effective as integrating breaks into your workday and walking around more.
It's great that folks here have managed to ease some of the chronic spinal/back pain they're experiencing. But that's really the only positive effect I feel we can link with some level of certainty to standing (within the context of office work).
> Nobody ever claimed that the one and only benefit of standing is to "burn excess calories".
Well, the article didn't claim that, either. It mentions that as one potential (arguable) benefit. It mentions this in the broader context of standing desk improving health in general, and the fact that there's basically no evidence for this.
Agreed. However, it seems to me that "health in general" is potentially harder to quantify than specific health conditions. It might be of interest to people who deal with workers in the aggregate, such as insurers and employers.
But I could imagine individual workers wanting to know more about the specifics: Could standing at work help with my personal health and medical issues? That question presented itself to me when my doctor told me that my neck and upper body pain was caused by sitting at a computer all day. Switching to a standing desk gave me fairly rapid relief after struggling for more than a year.
Of course that's just my anecdote. If someone else doesn't have the same problem, then the question is completely different for them.
Strange, I have the reverse! Carrying to many heavy loads when I was stupid/young means that standing is actually quite a lot more tiring for me. I can walk for miles without problems, but /standing/ for a few minutes is really painful on my lower back.
There is a case of wear an tear on the mechanical bit of the body. Sitting has it's issues, but standing put a lot of unnecessary strain on many sensitive joints. You /will/ pay for it later on...
I have a desk that I can move between standing and sitting with the touch of a button.
I love the versatility -- I am certainly more alert while standing. That being said, I feel no more or less healthy, but the alertness impact is immediate and noticeable.
I have one of these too, and I agree... but I also become very aware of everything else going on in the cubicles near me... and it's quite distracting.
It's much easier to filter it all out when I'm sitting down with my cube walls around me.
My grandmother ran a store and was on her feet all day long. She had really bad vericose veins when she was older. That is a real problem with standing.
> "I would say that there's evidence that standing can be bad for your health." A 2005 study in Denmark showed prolonged standing at work led to a higher hospitalization risk for enlarged veins.
If you read the article, they state that their is causation between standing and varicose veins. I am simply relating a personal anecdote confirming my experience that standing all day is not good for your health. I always wondered why this never came up during the standing desk craze.
I think it's better to invest in figuring out ergonomics of your sitting desk, chair, arm rests, wrists, keyboard position, monitor position, etc etc. Combine with regular breaks, walks outside, etc and you're getting improved energy and less burnout. Ideally your employer invests in a good office as well, with excellent ventilation, plants abound, and lots of light -- but this is rare.
I have had an adjustable desk (sit or stand) for the past eight years. The biggest benefit in my mind is the variation you get from switching between sitting and standing. Burning calories was never a goal.
I am particularly happy to be able to stand when I feel like it, because I had a pretty severe case of RSI in my arms, and thought that I would not be able to continue to work as a programmer. The biggest help came from using a break program, coupled with an ergonomic keyboard and mouse, but standing also helps.
We seem to be best adapted to squat and hunker, not sit in a chair or even stand straight.
No studies that I can find, but when I lived in Asia, older men who gathered to chat, play cards, etc., tended to squat. There were still lots of squat toilets around, too.
I'm thinking of building a platform so I can squat at my desk rather than sit on my tush. Alternatively, would like to power my computer by pedaling or cross-treading, but that's probably a bigger project than I have time for.
But squatting, that's underrated in Western culture. It feels great; more should do it, and not just while on the toilet.
I stand at work and at home. I'm standing 90% of the time on a computer, and that's most of the day. First, if there's evidence that sitting down all the time is bad, then NOT doing that is already better. Second, and most importantly, standing is better not because you're not sitting down, but because you're in an active state, in a position ready to move around.
If you stand in exactly one position for hours (as if you're stuck in a chair) then you're doing it wrong. Standing up is really about having the freedom to move around as you're reading things on the computer, or taking micro-breaks to stretch your arm, etc. Constantly being in motion is the best way to stay active and use the computer all day.
> Standing up is really about having the freedom to move around as you're reading things on the computer, or taking micro-breaks to stretch your arm, etc.
This is why I really like a standing desk combined with a barstool-height chair. Your work surface is at the same height both sitting and standing and you can easily switch back and forth.
First, if there's evidence that sitting down all the time is bad, then NOT doing that is already better.
That is something of a logical fallacy. Standing all the time is not necessarily better than sitting all the time just because research into sitting suggests it's bad. It may well be the case, but it cannot be concluded so in that way.
What I meant was that since sitting down all the time is bad, then not doing that is good. So, avoiding sitting down all the time is good (which means you will stand some of the time).
In my opinion, standing vs sitting is irrelevant as long as you work out and have some muscles to support your spine and help maintaining good posture for long-ish periods of time.
I would guess fitness accounts for at least 70% of not having back problems, which makes me believe people with a strong back can sit/stand however the hell they want.
Can anyone enlighten me with any research or articles that correlates with my beliefs?
Someone told me an architect studio was selling old stuff and we could probably be interested on some things so we could pay a visit...
I was socked when I saw they were replacing an entire room of drawing tables that architects used standing up, with computers that people used sitting down.
With the drawing tables there were stools. It was normal in chemical labs, repair shops, teachers giving a class, lots of places.
You could sit when you wanted, you could stand when you wanted. That is how I had been working for years, with my computer at eyes' level, with a stool I could sit when I want. Half the time I stand, half I sit without really sitting down, I just support my weight on the stool.
So because mouse and keyboard computers are hard to move like we do and are not very ergonomical, we degrade ourselves to computer level: we stare to near displays and don't move at all for hours.
For me it is not a long term solution. Improvements will happen over time.
Anecdotally, standing for half the day has helped my hemorrhoids. Not sure if they were caused by sitting for 8+ hours a day in a desk chair, but not sitting definitely helps. Not something I brag about though :)
57 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 136 ms ] thread(That was an insightful article. It was full of insight)
The biggest problem is shoes: Most of those have heels that actually unbalances the body,the spine and muscles, specially women.
Heels are responsible for the biggest amount of accidents in the workplace, specially ankle sprains, also breaking rotulas when putting the heel on a hole.
Just one centimeter heel used for hours modifies the body because the body adapts to everything the same way that if you put mirrors in glasses, after a month the body adapts to inverted vision or if you put yourself glasses, the body adapts to the glasses.
The thing I will say about it though is that if you're tired, standing keeps you paying attention whereas sitting can make you slouch and relax. This is useful right after lunch, but all day? Save your legs the trouble and join a gym if it's your physical health you're worried about.
I genuinely think if I'd had such a desk before and stood for say 20 minutes in the hour I wouldn't have got into the mess I did with my back.
While some of the benefits may be over-stated I am convinced variety during the day (sitting and standing) significantly benefits the spine.
I also have a herniated disc (L4/L5) and need to get up every half-hour or so for a quick walk. Works wonders.
I realized my entire body was changing, and after those months I enjoyed it a lot. It improved my posture and people realized.
My health improved. I was already healthy but had back pain at some times in the past and it disappeared completely.
I like a standing desk. I have had chronic back problems aggravated by a slumping chair posture, and 100% standing for the last year or so has been (I feel) really helpful.
All the article is saying is "no studies have confirmed that standing desks are correlated with positive health effects."
Given that standing desks are a relatively new thing, and as they mention there are no good studies either way, that's not very surprising.
And the evidence that sitting a lot is bad for you is still there.
So the hypothesis that not sitting all day is a good idea still looks pretty valid, and sit-stand desks seem like a decent way to achieve that.
It makes intuitive sense that mixing postures and moving is the optimal approach.
that depends on the definition of "positive health effects". Does reversing of problems created by 35+ years of sitting (since the first grade of elementary school in my case) counts? To me it does count. Has been standing for 10 months and some issues have either gone or noticeably improved.
This is where most people have misunderstanding here - when you're 20-somethig healthy guy, it doesn't matter whether you're sitting or standing (and thus no "positive health effects"). 20 years later - it does (and for some it means sitting is better, for some - standing).
But if you're looking for peer-reviewed studies done by Proper Scientists with controls, p-values and so on, there aren't any good, conclusive ones yet. Which doesn't mean that you and I are talking rubbish - it just means there hasn't been enough time to formally evaluate the sit-stand desk yet.
Well, specifically, a scientist who wasn't involved in the meta-analysis opined this. My takeaway is that the emphatic and zealous testimonials that some users of standing/treadmill/pedalling/Dance-Dance-Revolution-pad desks offer are premature from a scientific standpoint.
I haven't been at my current weight in over a decade. I do 30 miles a week on it. It's tiring. If that's not exercise then ???
My standing desk[1] has been a lifesaver in terms of minimizing my sciatica. I tried a few different (expensive) ergonomic chairs, but nothing has been as good for me as standing has.
Whether or not standing at a desk will make you live longer is irrelevant to me. As the other comments here confirm, for some of us the tangible benefits are obvious. Try it out for a few weeks and see how you make out.
[1] http://randlet.com/static/img/standing_desk.jpg
For me, buying an adjustable desk two years ago has been a fantastic investment. I usually spend the middle of the day sitting, but I love to stand right after breakfast (I get tired when I sit down in the morning) and when I play multiplayer games after dinner.
>The extra calories you burn from standing over sitting for a day are barely enough to cover a couple of banana chips.
>"But you're going to burn more calories standing than sitting. I know it's not a tremendous amount." Still, he says, "those calories every day over many years will add up."
It's great that folks here have managed to ease some of the chronic spinal/back pain they're experiencing. But that's really the only positive effect I feel we can link with some level of certainty to standing (within the context of office work).
Personally I had developed back pain from too much sitting. When I stand, I have better posture and so I don't get the pain.
Well, the article didn't claim that, either. It mentions that as one potential (arguable) benefit. It mentions this in the broader context of standing desk improving health in general, and the fact that there's basically no evidence for this.
But I could imagine individual workers wanting to know more about the specifics: Could standing at work help with my personal health and medical issues? That question presented itself to me when my doctor told me that my neck and upper body pain was caused by sitting at a computer all day. Switching to a standing desk gave me fairly rapid relief after struggling for more than a year.
Of course that's just my anecdote. If someone else doesn't have the same problem, then the question is completely different for them.
There is a case of wear an tear on the mechanical bit of the body. Sitting has it's issues, but standing put a lot of unnecessary strain on many sensitive joints. You /will/ pay for it later on...
Getting older sucks ;-)
I love the versatility -- I am certainly more alert while standing. That being said, I feel no more or less healthy, but the alertness impact is immediate and noticeable.
It's much easier to filter it all out when I'm sitting down with my cube walls around me.
> "I would say that there's evidence that standing can be bad for your health." A 2005 study in Denmark showed prolonged standing at work led to a higher hospitalization risk for enlarged veins.
If you read the article, they state that their is causation between standing and varicose veins. I am simply relating a personal anecdote confirming my experience that standing all day is not good for your health. I always wondered why this never came up during the standing desk craze.
I am particularly happy to be able to stand when I feel like it, because I had a pretty severe case of RSI in my arms, and thought that I would not be able to continue to work as a programmer. The biggest help came from using a break program, coupled with an ergonomic keyboard and mouse, but standing also helps.
More details here: http://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-rsi/
No studies that I can find, but when I lived in Asia, older men who gathered to chat, play cards, etc., tended to squat. There were still lots of squat toilets around, too.
I'm thinking of building a platform so I can squat at my desk rather than sit on my tush. Alternatively, would like to power my computer by pedaling or cross-treading, but that's probably a bigger project than I have time for.
But squatting, that's underrated in Western culture. It feels great; more should do it, and not just while on the toilet.
At least the Russians know what's up:
http://weirdrussia.com/2014/04/24/slav-squat-russian-disturb...
If you stand in exactly one position for hours (as if you're stuck in a chair) then you're doing it wrong. Standing up is really about having the freedom to move around as you're reading things on the computer, or taking micro-breaks to stretch your arm, etc. Constantly being in motion is the best way to stay active and use the computer all day.
This is why I really like a standing desk combined with a barstool-height chair. Your work surface is at the same height both sitting and standing and you can easily switch back and forth.
That is something of a logical fallacy. Standing all the time is not necessarily better than sitting all the time just because research into sitting suggests it's bad. It may well be the case, but it cannot be concluded so in that way.
I would guess fitness accounts for at least 70% of not having back problems, which makes me believe people with a strong back can sit/stand however the hell they want.
Can anyone enlighten me with any research or articles that correlates with my beliefs?
Someone told me an architect studio was selling old stuff and we could probably be interested on some things so we could pay a visit...
I was socked when I saw they were replacing an entire room of drawing tables that architects used standing up, with computers that people used sitting down.
With the drawing tables there were stools. It was normal in chemical labs, repair shops, teachers giving a class, lots of places.
You could sit when you wanted, you could stand when you wanted. That is how I had been working for years, with my computer at eyes' level, with a stool I could sit when I want. Half the time I stand, half I sit without really sitting down, I just support my weight on the stool.
So because mouse and keyboard computers are hard to move like we do and are not very ergonomical, we degrade ourselves to computer level: we stare to near displays and don't move at all for hours.
For me it is not a long term solution. Improvements will happen over time.