Swaths of Waterloo and UofT grads leave Canada for better paying work in the USA. There is no lack of talent coming out of Canadian Universities. If they can't keep their own domestic talent, how do they figure they can attrack "top foreign talent"? It seems like a false flag operation to find cheaper labour.
Agreed. You try to stay in Canada for love of the country(no joke. I love it here) or just not wanting to leave familiar scene. But with insane housing market and (relatively)low wage, the temptation is strong.
Absolutely. I would love to move back to Vancouver (born+raised) but it's so expensive vs. the salary options. To be fair though, while the tech jobs in Kitchener\Waterloo pay less than SF, the cost of living is very affordable.
Agreed. Think of Texas salaries vs cost of living and compare that to Toronto. I have a friend that went back to school just so that he can get a TN visa and leave for the US
Housing isn't that expensive outside of Vancouver. You can buy a one bedroom condo a 2 min walk from the CN Tower for $230k to $260k USD / 300k to $350k CAD, and salaries here are lower than SF or NYC, but not by that much. Vancouver, yes, pays very poorly and has unreasonable housing prices, but that is far from all of Canada.
I feel like I say this all the time, but... Real houses should be expensive in a city. The whole point of a city is densification. I don't want to live around a bunch of (usually detached) houses as far as the eye can see. I want to live where everything is happening. If you want a real house with an nice mostly quiet neighbourhood with a Canadian Tire and a Boston Pizza live in Georgetown and take the Go Train.
<300k gets you 500sqft bachelor pad. Rent is about 1500$ for bachelor, goes up to 2k for 1bed+den. I think the 30 rent rule is a great benchmark for living affordability, renting a 1bd+den is around 1700$ for downtown in a decent building.. with utility, internet etc .. make that 1800$.. ((1700+100)*12)/0.3 = 72k a year. If you're making that dt toronto, you're doing okay.
Just be glad Canada doesn't tax worldwide income for nonresidents like the US does. If they did, your cushy SV job would be much less attractive. Though the lack of snow might compensate.
It would not, the US has tax treaties with countries like Canada so you don't get double-taxed. The only case in which you get double taxed is if the US has no treaty with the country. The US is one of the few countries which does this and I guess it's mostly because American contractors have been enabled by the US government to do these sorts of jobs, like for instance in the Middle East, and the government feels that this warrants a cut.
> It would not, the US has tax treaties with countries like Canada so you don't get double-taxed. The only case in which you get double taxed is if the US has no treaty with the country.
This is only true for federal taxes. States aren't required to follow federal tax treaties. So California, for example, doesn't recognize any tax treaty with Canada. There are lots of ways you can wind up getting taxed twice.
Not sure how you would get double taxed this way. You only end up paying Federal tax if you are not in the country. Not State tax as you don't belong to any State.
Different countries have different rules for taxation. It's perfectly possible to be considered a resident (or deemed resident) in two places concurrently. This is frequently the case for people who split their time between multiple countries.
I know many people who have been in this position.
I've done the math - it doesn't really make much of a difference. For both CA and NY the combination of federal and state income tax means the tax rates are actually pretty similar.
For states without state income tax, of course, that changes things.
At my present income, if Canada wanted a slice of the pie I'd owe a very small cheque to them each year. The paperwork would be more painful than the tax.
And that's assuming you maintain Canadian residency - if not then you're only on the hook for federal income tax, which is strictly going to be lower than whatever you're paying California (you only pay the difference to Canada due to tax treaty), so your total Canadian tax bill will be a whopping $0.
> And that's assuming you maintain Canadian residency - if not then you're only on the hook for federal income tax
I realize that this is a hypothetical, but FYI the CRA has rules that kick in when you're paying taxes and not a resident (e.g. you're a "deemed resident", "factual resident", etc.). Generally you will still be taxed in the province where you have significant ties or last resided.
Happens all the time here in Germany. Every year one gets at least three to four of these "we do not have enough talent, we need to hire foreign talent, make it easier" initiatives while at the same time people with the required education leave the country in droves. It was funny for a time, now it is just sad.
Retaining local talent may be difficult enough as-is without even thinking about attracting foreign talent. I'm not too familiar with the situation in Ottawa (as seems to be the main focus of this article), but as a Vancouverite, it's no secret that tech salaries here are lagging behind from our American neighbours, even as close as Seattle. Despite the gap in wages, our CoL is more or less comparable (yes yes, I'm aware of > $3k/month rentals in SF, but unlike SF, $100k in Vancouver isn't considered low). That coupled with a significant drop in the Canadian dollar...
I've always believed that if one of GoogleMicrosoftAmazonFacebook etc. started opening up more major development offices in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal (but mainly Toronto), we would stop losing so much of our top talent to the US.
Competition would rise. And then we'd be able to create a much stronger talent pool, higher salaries in the tech community, and overall a better ecosystem. But none of these companies have really tapped into this system.
But it seems like no executive at these companies has figured it out yet!
What is there for these companies in Canada? It seems a better idea to open development offices in other countries, that might be cheaper and have a bigger talent pool.
Canada has some decent ranking schools (UofT,Waterloo,UBC,SFU,etc.) and many Canadians don't want to move to the US (plus the Canadian dollar is worth less lately).
Yes, but even if Canada has a really big pool of talented developers for its size, the base problem is Canada's population size. According this ranking (http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/universit...) Canada has 4 universities ranking in the TOP 100 for CS. The EU has 30. China has 5, and it's much cheaper.
If I look here[1] the 'much cheaper' seems not to be that much. And ofcourse on the comparison part here [2]. I am currently around close to Shanghai but I live in Europe and the prices are quite comparable to north EU/US if I would want the same living standard. In the south (GR/ES/PT) and east of the EU it is cheaper than here and I find it's also cheaper there than in Beijing if I compare living standard again.
Well, the cost of living does not matter to the company; the issue for them are the salaries. According this[1], the average salary for a software developer in Shanghai is 150k RMB. That's like 30.5k Canadian dollars. The average salary for a software developer in Vancouver is more than double of that[2].
Changing the topic... I'm not so sure if Southern Europe is cheaper than Shanghai. The two main cities of Spain rank higher in cost of living than Shanghai, according your link. I guess that defining the "cost of living" is a really complicated problem.
Yeah I think it is also who you ask. And Glassdoor is also a bit wonky; all companies I speak to here are crying they have to offer 350k-800k RMB otherwise devs (seniors) just go elsewhere. And that's Vancouver salaries.
Canada also has the same language, can have the same time zone as any US location, is closer (no overseas flights) and has established trade relationships with the US.
EU is a clear example. And then you have China and India, that have a smaller percentage of educated people, but have such a big populations that their elites can be excellent.
The issue with Canada is that it's pretty small, population wise. I guess that for those big American companies is simpler to bring the -relatively- small number of Canadians to the US.
I've known quite a few skilled developers that have been unemployed up here in Canada for one small reason or another, there does seem like plenty of opportunity for Moneyball-style recruiting. I gather most companies won't open in other countries because of the tax advantage [1]. Hopefully the increased liquidity of the job market doesn't increase short term interests in the already expensive housing market.
Some of us won’t go to work in the U.S. for any company for any reason, whereas we might consider working for an American company in Canada. I’m one (and as a dual-citizen, I could work in the U.S.), and Tim Bray (as an example) is another. He left Google because they insisted that he work in Mountain View, where Amazon has an office in Vancouver, where he lives.
Amazon and Microsoft both have relatively large development offices in Vancouver (Amazon's was supposed to be 1000 people). I don't believe these are staging offices either, like Facebook's is.
I work on hardware, so I don't know that much about hiring on the software side, but I haven't really heard that much has changed in hiring programmers since they opened their offices.
I feel almost hesitant to write this - but these executives have figured it out and it does not bode well for Canada.
You guys are competing with India where you could pay people 1/4 the salary in Canada and get access to high quality talent. And there are so many so Valley expats who are dying to return home, that you can get access to senior management talent for India ver easily. CXO level salaries in India match that of the US - especially with the Flipkarts and OlaCabs out here.
And cost of living is obviously much lower.
Long term, Canada will need to grow it's startup ecosystem and domestic markets. The top employers in India are all domestic at this point.
> I feel almost hesitant to write this - but these executives have figured it out and it does not bode well for Canada. You guys are competing with India where you could pay people 1/4 the salary in Canada and get access to high quality talent.
If that's the case, why do they bother coming to Waterloo to recruit and go through the hassle of paying SF salaries, relocation and sponsoring visas?
I'd be happy with a 30% pay cut vs SF if I could live/work in Toronto but right now it's closer to 60%. I can't be alone.
For the past 12 months I've fruitlessly tried to obtain a work permit for a Toronto based company. The salary was quite competitive, but ultimately having 5 consecutive work permit applications fail just wasted too much time.
For someone who have been trying to immigrate to Canada for the last six years (from a South American country), that have invested hundreds of dollars investigating how Canadian immigration laws work, that have worked for three years for an US company in the security field, I find inconsistent all the news saying that the country needs professionals to keep the internal work force but then you find out that the government puts so many barriers in the immigration process that at the end you have to give up. I hope the government (including the Quebecoise) becomes flexible in the future so people can find better opportunities to immigrate there.
Currently staying in Canada as a tourist, while working remote for a European FinTech and have had a Express Entry application going for 6 months now. And I can tell you that the whole system is a joke.
I have a BSc in CS, 6 years work experience in the tech sector, near perfect score on the english language tests and I have 440 points (EE uses a point system). I have tried everything I can think of trying to have the CiC acknowledge that I have a job and an income (to gain more points) but to no avail. I would be able to pay my taxes in Canada as my home country has a dual tax agreement with Canada.
However if I were to take a job flipping burgers, through the job bank program, I would get extra 300-400 points and be allowed to move in (in all likelyhood since the points would place me high enough to qualify).
You want more top tech talent? Pay more. I have a pretty well paying comfy job in Toronto and even I keep considering just jumping to the states because it pays so much better. This is just a way of not having to pay what people are worth while trying to get talent.
I'm a foreign worker worker who graduated from a top school in Canada but now work in Silicon Valley. Interviewing in Canada was a nightmare, I was called back 3 times to interview more and more people for the same company, salaries were abysmally low and I felt a general cautious vibe / old school bureaucracy in hiring.
There are hundreds of thousands of wannabe tech immigrants stuck in the broken US immigration process who should be prime targets for Canadian Tech Companies. But the fact that these people would rather be abused by lifelong delays imposed by US govt. than instantly get a Canadian Residency and Citizenship is testament on how unattractive opportunities in Canada are.
I've had mixed experience in Canada. Yes, the companies here are traditional and salaries are low, but that isn't all of the market. I have interviewed at a few exciting companies, all of which pay good salaries. Not SV-high, but higher than what Canada is used to.
I'd much rather take a pay cut, than spend 17 years to get residency in a country that doesn't want me.
There are no shortcuts to solving brain drain. Find a compelling way to solve it (paying more, giving more opportunities to grow is a good start) and let's talk from there.
Canadian tech workers are underpaid and the weak dollar is making it even worse. You can practically double your purchasing power by going over the border and working in the states.
In my experience, finding a job here in Toronto as a programmer/developer/engineer/whatever has been VERY tough without a CS background (or any degree for that matter). Despite launching an app in the app store I still struggle to get interviews for even junior level positions, which in Toronto translates to around $50k - $60k. I could make the same amount of money waiting tables if I really wanted to.
"Junior level positions, which in Toronto translates to around $50k - $60k. I could make the same amount of money waiting tables if I really wanted to."
So the going rates in Canada are in that range. I interviewed for a remote senior position (5+ years exp) for a start-up in Toronto (that from brief research looked to be profitable, so I went ahead).
My jaw dropped when they said they were targeting $25 (CAD) an hour, with the exchange rate that's less than $19 (US) an hour. My sentiment was the same as yours, at $19 (US) an hour I could make the same amount of money teaching plain English anywhere in the world. It looks like they don't even do a cross-check for other industry rates, just fluent English can net you the same rates as an English teacher in practically any market.
It's mostly an estimated guess. It seems your real example is more accurate. How long ago was this?
I was recently working for a start-up in Toronto as well. They told me they could no longer afford me after billing them only ~$10,000 CAD for two months of work building the only product they were ever going to have. It worked out to close to $20-$25 CAD an hour as well.
Well. I do not want to be rude but launching an app does not equal that you are entitled to 60k a year. This is becoming more clear than ever that doing IT no longer equals good salary in crowded places like London etc.
Demand is decreasing and companies that offer services for free are undervaluing (think Google, Microsoft) our salaries.
Not to be rude again but there's a fierce competition out there and good enough does no longer translate into instant $$$. Canada is still a very rich country and when you compare the wages with India,Vietnam or Eastern/Central Europe it's hard to compete. These people are becoming "good enough" and paying more becomes harder and harder to justify if you can just hire senior dev in India or Eastern Europe for 40k $ a year.
It's basically the same with degrees. Your customer does not care if the app / product has been made by a person with a degree. It's the same for us. We do not want to pay (money or time does not matter) for a degree if we can get the education for free...somehow.
You don't come off as rude at all. Sorry if my comment comes off as entitled. I only feel slightly entitled haha.
You certainly are correct on how tough the competition is here. I'm in a bit of a pickle where I've been getting by on small projects for clients, but have yet to find an opportunity to work at a larger company with other developers I can teach and learn from as well, which I believe will help me launch a solid career as a developer. I'm looking forward to one day having the privilege of receiving recruiter spam everyday. :p
Companies are are only for open borders and easy immigration because they want to push wages down and replace people who expect to be treated well and paid a fair wage with people who will get kicked out of the country if they step out of line and who are just grateful they have something to send back home to their families.
What salaries do you guys consider competitive ?
Do you all compare it to the SV salaries ?
If we exclude SV salaries how much more your avg US tech worker earns compared to his canadian peer.
And is this concentration of wealth good for the economy overall ?
I mean the canadians experience exactly the same. Even the high paid workers in Vancouver cannot afford housing as the "super rich" chinese that climbed upon the backs of their fellow countrymen and then swarmed Canada.
Don't you think that such concentration of wealth is not really a good idea ?
Have just been thinking of moving to Canada in the next few years, because it's immigration process seems to be friendlier to professionals without a degree — but comments here have been discouraging, to say the least.
What's a good place to find more information about Canada's tech (gamedev in particular) to adequately measure my chances of finding a relocation offer?
Same here, looking to move to Canada in the near future. Any info on how long the whole process takes and the other relevant info for web devs would be helpful.
I left Canada not too long ago. With the current exchange rate, my base here in SV is 350% of what I made in Canada for a much less stressful job. When you take the absurd RSU grant I'm getting into account, my estimated take home for the year is going to be nearly 10x that of my total Canadian compensation. The cost of living in SV is higher, but it is not THAT much higher.
The problem is that they just don't pay enough to compete. I'd move home in a heartbeat, but I won't work for a decade there for what I can make in a year here.
61 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 110 ms ] threadYes apartment prices can be considered reasonable but actual houses are approaching the same levels as Vancouver.
Also those $250k apartments usually have $500/month maintenance fees attached. Not all, but some.
This is only true for federal taxes. States aren't required to follow federal tax treaties. So California, for example, doesn't recognize any tax treaty with Canada. There are lots of ways you can wind up getting taxed twice.
I know many people who have been in this position.
For states without state income tax, of course, that changes things.
At my present income, if Canada wanted a slice of the pie I'd owe a very small cheque to them each year. The paperwork would be more painful than the tax.
And that's assuming you maintain Canadian residency - if not then you're only on the hook for federal income tax, which is strictly going to be lower than whatever you're paying California (you only pay the difference to Canada due to tax treaty), so your total Canadian tax bill will be a whopping $0.
I realize that this is a hypothetical, but FYI the CRA has rules that kick in when you're paying taxes and not a resident (e.g. you're a "deemed resident", "factual resident", etc.). Generally you will still be taxed in the province where you have significant ties or last resided.
Well let's just say it hurts.
Competition would rise. And then we'd be able to create a much stronger talent pool, higher salaries in the tech community, and overall a better ecosystem. But none of these companies have really tapped into this system.
But it seems like no executive at these companies has figured it out yet!
[1] http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings.jsp [2] http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp
Changing the topic... I'm not so sure if Southern Europe is cheaper than Shanghai. The two main cities of Spain rank higher in cost of living than Shanghai, according your link. I guess that defining the "cost of living" is a really complicated problem.
[1]: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/shanghai-software-enginee... [2]: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/vancouver-software-develo...
Canada also has the same language, can have the same time zone as any US location, is closer (no overseas flights) and has established trade relationships with the US.
The issue with Canada is that it's pretty small, population wise. I guess that for those big American companies is simpler to bring the -relatively- small number of Canadians to the US.
[1] http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tax-burgerking-idUSKBN...
I work on hardware, so I don't know that much about hiring on the software side, but I haven't really heard that much has changed in hiring programmers since they opened their offices.
Long term, Canada will need to grow it's startup ecosystem and domestic markets. The top employers in India are all domestic at this point.
If that's the case, why do they bother coming to Waterloo to recruit and go through the hassle of paying SF salaries, relocation and sponsoring visas?
I'd be happy with a 30% pay cut vs SF if I could live/work in Toronto but right now it's closer to 60%. I can't be alone.
For the past 12 months I've fruitlessly tried to obtain a work permit for a Toronto based company. The salary was quite competitive, but ultimately having 5 consecutive work permit applications fail just wasted too much time.
I just thought startup companies cannot afford to hire top talented workers.
I thought top talented workers usually launch startup.. not hired.
I have a BSc in CS, 6 years work experience in the tech sector, near perfect score on the english language tests and I have 440 points (EE uses a point system). I have tried everything I can think of trying to have the CiC acknowledge that I have a job and an income (to gain more points) but to no avail. I would be able to pay my taxes in Canada as my home country has a dual tax agreement with Canada. However if I were to take a job flipping burgers, through the job bank program, I would get extra 300-400 points and be allowed to move in (in all likelyhood since the points would place me high enough to qualify).
Again, this system is a complete joke.
I applied whilst living back in the UK. They issued the visa whilst I was still there and I managed to swing a job by doing remote interviews.
I only just scraped in on points - if I wasn't married then we wouldn't have qualified.
If your country has a working holiday agreement with Canada then you are better coming in on that first.
There are hundreds of thousands of wannabe tech immigrants stuck in the broken US immigration process who should be prime targets for Canadian Tech Companies. But the fact that these people would rather be abused by lifelong delays imposed by US govt. than instantly get a Canadian Residency and Citizenship is testament on how unattractive opportunities in Canada are.
I'd much rather take a pay cut, than spend 17 years to get residency in a country that doesn't want me.
In my experience, finding a job here in Toronto as a programmer/developer/engineer/whatever has been VERY tough without a CS background (or any degree for that matter). Despite launching an app in the app store I still struggle to get interviews for even junior level positions, which in Toronto translates to around $50k - $60k. I could make the same amount of money waiting tables if I really wanted to.
So the going rates in Canada are in that range. I interviewed for a remote senior position (5+ years exp) for a start-up in Toronto (that from brief research looked to be profitable, so I went ahead).
My jaw dropped when they said they were targeting $25 (CAD) an hour, with the exchange rate that's less than $19 (US) an hour. My sentiment was the same as yours, at $19 (US) an hour I could make the same amount of money teaching plain English anywhere in the world. It looks like they don't even do a cross-check for other industry rates, just fluent English can net you the same rates as an English teacher in practically any market.
I was recently working for a start-up in Toronto as well. They told me they could no longer afford me after billing them only ~$10,000 CAD for two months of work building the only product they were ever going to have. It worked out to close to $20-$25 CAD an hour as well.
Demand is decreasing and companies that offer services for free are undervaluing (think Google, Microsoft) our salaries.
Not to be rude again but there's a fierce competition out there and good enough does no longer translate into instant $$$. Canada is still a very rich country and when you compare the wages with India,Vietnam or Eastern/Central Europe it's hard to compete. These people are becoming "good enough" and paying more becomes harder and harder to justify if you can just hire senior dev in India or Eastern Europe for 40k $ a year.
It's basically the same with degrees. Your customer does not care if the app / product has been made by a person with a degree. It's the same for us. We do not want to pay (money or time does not matter) for a degree if we can get the education for free...somehow.
You certainly are correct on how tough the competition is here. I'm in a bit of a pickle where I've been getting by on small projects for clients, but have yet to find an opportunity to work at a larger company with other developers I can teach and learn from as well, which I believe will help me launch a solid career as a developer. I'm looking forward to one day having the privilege of receiving recruiter spam everyday. :p
If we exclude SV salaries how much more your avg US tech worker earns compared to his canadian peer.
And is this concentration of wealth good for the economy overall ?
I mean the canadians experience exactly the same. Even the high paid workers in Vancouver cannot afford housing as the "super rich" chinese that climbed upon the backs of their fellow countrymen and then swarmed Canada.
Don't you think that such concentration of wealth is not really a good idea ?
What's a good place to find more information about Canada's tech (gamedev in particular) to adequately measure my chances of finding a relocation offer?
The problem is that they just don't pay enough to compete. I'd move home in a heartbeat, but I won't work for a decade there for what I can make in a year here.