I'll be interested in hearing from anyone who uses this and finds it offers them more than they are currently getting from cygwin or VMware+Linux VM. I realize it's a very different beast from cygwin - an entire User Mode Linux environment, as opposed to being able to download windows versions of the Linux Environment, but, on a day to day basis, It will be interesting to see what people do differently, and why they would use WSL as opposed to just running a Linux VM on their workstation if cygwin isn't sufficient.
My potential use case: run the IDE on the host (Windows UI is fast, font rendering is great), but use git, etc. from the Linux command line (to get file permissions, etc. right).
Install git (the real git from https://git-scm.com/, not a fancy GUI) and use the git bash shell today. It runs msys and has a full set of Linux utilities like ls, etc.
The powershell extensions in Git Shell (not git bash) are also fantastic and less clunky (doesn't feel like mingw). Comes bundled with github for Windows.
One serious advantage to WLS over a VM, is you don't have yet another layer of NAT at play... That's the biggest one to come to mind... you also don't have a fully linux system spun up to work on a few tasks in a bash prompt.
Don't get me wrong, I've been fine using a "remote" VM machine locally for linux, and a lot of my work the past few years has been that way (CIFS in the VM, to run a gui editor on the desktop), but to be able to run closer to native is a good thing imho... hopefully it stays well supported.
I'm using it on my tablet instead of previously using a VMWare image and msys+mingw+cygwin.
The main advantage over a VM is no resource partitioning: on a 4GB RAM tablet with 64GB eMMC, you can't allocate more than 2GB RAM to a VM without trouble, and putting 20GB of disk aside for it is also a pain., and much improved power efficiency (even an idle VM drastically reduces battery life, while Ubuntu for Windows doesn't).
Compared to Cygwin: a lot more packages are available, a lot more just works out of the box, and you can painlessly use online tutorials for Linux, which often assume Ubuntu and don't consider Cygwin a target platform.
Ask away. I don't have the tablet with me, but I can answer what I know so far.
I haven't tried zsh, but I'm pretty sure you can install it. I installed a bunch of applications, including using third party repos and ppa's. I don't see why zsh would not work.
Perhaps zsh uses some unsupported escape sequences (for instance, screen doesn't seem to work), but you can readily work around that by using another terminal in windows (mintty) or launching a VNC server from Linux and a VNC client to your localhost I assume.
It's readily apparent from the error messages earlier in this sub-thread that the zsh problem isn't to do with escape sequences. And of course the screen problem (at least the one known so far) is not escape sequences, either.
I couldn't get zsh to work (same errors as tallanvor) but other shells did work, like fish with oh-my-fish. I had to run bash in ConEmu to be able to display some unicode characters (those used by powerline themes/fonts) - http://i.imgur.com/JT8Zi5j.png
Maybe, personally I look at some of those as transient technologies, MS usually provides a migration path, as painful that might be, to better solutions.
I did not try GUI stuff, but when my tablet went to sleep while executing a long-running command, when I returned to the bash shell, the command failed with a message stating "interrupted syscall" or the like. Not sure if this is the common/intended behaviour.
Oh man, thanks for the tip! Works wonderfully. I just apt-get'ed synaptic and it seems totally functional :) Xemacs and Angband don't work, but the fact that so much works already bodes pretty well for the future.
OpenGL vendor string: VMware, Inc.
OpenGL renderer string: Gallium 0.4 on llvmpipe (LLVM 3.4, 256 bits)
OpenGL version string: 2.1 Mesa 10.1.3
OpenGL shading language version string: 1.30
glxgears works for about a second, then crashes:
XIO: fatal IO error 11 (Resource temporarily unavailable) on X server "localhost:0.0"
after 732 requests (732 known processed) with 0 events remaining.
I currently don't have access to a Windows box, but am currently working on a CLI app in Swift for OSX and Linux. It would be interesting to see if this effectively makes swift cross-platform "for free".
What a time to be alive! I'm holding out on upgrading to Win10 until I buy a new PC since my 7 -> 10 upgrade ties to hardware, but I hope to have that done by the end of next month. I can't wait to try this out.
edit: Specifically, I want to understand to what extent - if any - will it allow some of the horror problems you have working with certain Python libraries (compiling Numpy on Windows is like pulling teeth) to be a thing of the past. I'd be more than happy to work in WinBash for Python if it means having the easy Linux install processes available for some of the more scientific packages.
If anything it's going to make it worse. When you type python in a command prompt which version is going to run, the windows version or the Ubuntu version? Even worse when you pip install a package what pip are you running, windows or Ubuntu?
Python on Windows is painful mostly because of the amount of binary packages that have to be compiled since distributing binary packages hasn't been in vogue until only recently with Python. You can save a ton of trouble using something like Anaconda, or honestly just run a Linux VM. If you're compiling numpy you're doing something wrong IMHO--use a prebuilt version that's optimized for your processor (ideally using Intel's commercial compiler with full SSE, etc. optimizations).
The underlying filesystem (NTFS) is case-sensitive, so I think it should basically work fine. Sure, Windows tools are case-insensitive, so if you use bash to create foo and Foo in the same directory you'll probably only be able to access one of them from Windows Explorer, but I doubt that's much of a problem for most people
It does seam to be case sensitive! Creating two files called a and A works. They even show up in explorer. It doesn't work to delete one of them from explorer though. No errors - they just reappear. After trying, I now have a file called a that I can't delete from bash or explorer!
You will find windows executables mounted just like the rest of the windows file system, so in bash you can find /mnt/c/windows/notepad.exe but you can't execute it from the bash subsystem (I presume).
The opposite is also true: the linux subsystem files are mounted under a regular directory in windows, so you can see all the files but from the normal windows subsystem you can't execute the linux binaries.
It means there is a big wall between the two systems, and you can't really automate windows things with bash instead of PS if you wanted. At this point though I find that to be a benefit - It would be fantastically confusing if you typed "find" or "python" and had to wonder whether a linux program or a windows program would actually execute.
> "No, that doesn't suit my definition of native. ;)"
Why is that? Because the containers are running in Hyper-V? From a user standpoint I doubt you'd notice any difference, especially once Hyper-V is supported in Windows 10:
If you need fast storage resources you may notice a performance hit. Performance for CPU and memory resources seems to be mostly the same as Docker on Linux.
No, Linux on the Desktop has just died. I expect both the KDE and Gnome projects dead within a (very few) years, probably X.org close behind.
All hail Winux though. (That's the name for this mix I came up with.)
Before you downvote this without thinking ... consider, for example, KDE is severely understaffed and this will deplete them further. Who will bother with X.org bugs and drivers now? What's the point? Who is your target audience? You need to drink a real big dose of Stallman kool-aid to continue with Linux if this thing on Windows works as promised.
I have been using Linux solely on my laptop since 2004. I am sick of the constant driver problems. Yes, yes, you can connect to your home router or the router in the cafe. Now go and try and connect to an enterprise network. Perhaps with VPN.
I do all of the things you mention without problem. I don't definitely don't think GNU/Linux will die as a result. First off, syscall emulation will always be clunky. Secondly, many people care about their freedom. Thirdly, what makes you think that a majority of people using GNU/Linux will switch. I haven't had driver or network problems for the past 3 years on any of my various machines.
Same here. I use Windows maybe once or twice a year, and it's always a pain. "Winux" won't change that for me and to be honest, I don't really want to support Microsoft. Sure, I think VS is a pretty nice piece of software, but that's about it - too few reasons to switch.
No need to be flippant. Yes, I read those comments and I don't share those experiences. I've used my fair share of odd hardware and I've never had problems that couldn't be resolved without half an hour if Googling.
KDE has always been understaffed and will always be understaffed.
But it has been improving all the time with every single release.
The problem is that you (and millions of people who were looking for Linux desktop to "win") are just not excited anymore since new form factors (phones, tablets) arrived.
But I actually think Linux desktop is a winner. There are several high quality desktop enviroments suitable for all kinds of use cases.
Yeah we are not dominating the world. That was a short naive dream in the early 2000. But we have awesome desktops and thats what matters.
Disclaimer: minor KDE contributor but these were my thoughts not KDE's.
It becomes even more approachable by "Winux". Let people learn the basic of the CLI and get comfy with more open source tools -- then reinstall your computer to a Linux distro (and put your Win-only apps in a VM or on Wine) is a small move.
I highly doubt that "Winux" will really result in a large increase of people learning CLI tools. People that want to use those tools already have way that they're doing so. Consider that most people have difficulty using a basic word processor, much less Unix tools.
I'm considering the masses. But many in higher-education are on Windows (my experience here in the Netherlands). I can imagine that, for instance, they will use Winux at some point.
Same for some IT professionals that use Windows (either since their job demands it, or out of preference). They might install Winux at some point to get some aspect of their work done faster. Again a lower barrier to get your CLI skills up and get comfy with common open source tools.
I believe there is a lot of value in "CLI skills and common open source tools" that Windows users are currently missing out on.
As I understand it, vendors will probably have paying clients for Linux desktops for some time to come. It is very hard to imagine a situation where the demand for a Linux desktop become so low that no-one will maintain the required software infrastructure.
Keep in mind Windows 10 let's the folks at Redmond remotely remove software from you machine. Before you go declaring Linux dead you might want to think about how that could impact you. Not to mention that Microsoft has been known to Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.
I've deemed it "Frankenstein OS" because they've sewn a whole bunch of parts together to make an unwieldy monster that doesn't quite work as good as the individual pieces did on their own.
Only if you understand desktop market share of an operating system as a battle.
Myself and a lot of other people are using GNU/Linux and other libre operating systems with great pleasure and, finally, growing hardware support. I could not care less if 90% of desktops are Windows systems or if an additional 9% are OS X machines or whatever.
tl;dr: Just use what works for you. If it supports your ethical values, itäs even better!
Sure, if all users believe in "use what works for you", they shouldn't get pissed off when others make jokes on that. *nix users are not going to like it, but in real world comparisons are bound to happen for things of same categories and you can't prevent that. Better to move on, and that was the reason I wrote my comment.
Linux users were going around for a while saying "this is the year of linux on the desktop", and yeah it kind of turned into a bit of a meme.
Realistically linux did hit it big, but on a phone OS. It's now one of the most installed kernels in the world, but its brand is hidden. Linux is also incredibly important in the server space, and everyone knows this.
Linux will never have its year on the desktop in my opinion, but it will still be all over the place in the server/phone space. It just won out in other areas than the desktop.
> Linux users were going around for a while saying "this is the year of linux on the desktop", and yeah it kind of turned into a bit of a meme.
They were not actually, this is a myth. A few tech "journalists" wrote such articles which people started making fun of. But no, regular Linux users never claimed that, or at least not in any significant number that I know of.
A bit offtopic, but 2009 was the year of the Linux Desktop for me (using Ubuntu). Performant on older hardware, eye candy (compiz) on newer hardware, the Gnome 2 interface was familiar and incredibly polished, and you had a lot of choice (linuxshouldbeaboutchoice.com).
They lost me with all the rewriteritis and monodaemonisation that followed. I switched to MacOS (hackintosh) and was very happy for a while, since it could run all the Unix stuff, most of the productivity stuff (MS Office), and many games. It was for a long time the most plain, conservative OS (while Windows was going crazy with 8).
But recently, I've found Windows to be the OS that "just works" and gets out of my way - which was pretty surprising to me.
If anybody killed alternative desktops, it is not MS, but the desktops themselves.
>I've found Windows to be the OS that "just works" and gets out of my way
I've had the opposite experience. Windows does not "just work" and it certainly does not "stay out of the way".
I have USB headphones I can't use in Windows because they connect but Windows doesn't let me switch to them. When I plug in an external monitor my OS comes to a crawl and it doesn't speed back up until I restart the whole thing. When I unplug a monitor it loses my windows.
And did you hear the story about the guy who lost his job because Windows decided to update the .NET framework right before he was scheduled to do a presentation at a business meeting? Doesn't sound like Windows stays out of the way to me.
I wish Windows "just worked" but it doesn't. It breaks all the time unless you're a power user. Giving my parents Linux was the best thing I ever did for them because it turned their laptops from a source of constant frustration to an always-on communication machine. We went from hundreds of ads and dozens of toolbars on windows to a Linux machine that just works.
Now I'm just trying to get my dad to switch to Linux for work so he doesn't have to install his printer drivers again every time he wants to print something. All he uses for work is Chrome any way.
Totally agreed. 11y OSX user, tried to give Windows 10 a chance as the host system on a $2800 tablet (Vaio Canvas). HiDPI still a mess, tablet mode is worse than ever because it doesn't automatically bring up the keyboard for most apps (and even hides the keyboard tray icon by default - wtf?), system settings are complete and utter shit compared to OSX or even Windows 7, touchpad is unusable as always. Only good thing is the nice looking hardware, especially the stand, but it's tainted by the hideous power adapter (and very short batt. life no matter how you use it).
> I have USB headphones I can't use in Windows because they connect but Windows doesn't let me switch to them.
For most people, this would be a problem with the USB headphones, not with Windows. On the other hand, if the USB headphones work well in Windows but not in Ubuntu, then it's a problem with Ubuntu, not the USB headphones.
This is why it's impossible to have a rational debate about the state of the "Linux desktop".
2007 was the year of Linux on the Desktop - with netbooks, Linux was literally competition for Windows on the desktop for the first time and Microsoft had to make XP super-cheap.
Pretty much, finally MS decided to make it happen. :) On a more serious note, you can get all of the benefits of windows and linux in one without docker or any vm running. This is great!
Maybe it's because I haven't been following this very closely but I'm confused. Does this mean I can do things like compile Haskell or OCaml from terminal as easily as I do on my Linux install? Can I use apt-get?
I would be shocked. As I mentioned above, I wouldn't expect wireshark to run either. From what we gathered so far, this is a syscall translation layer and
> No new system calls are added for cgroups - all support for querying and modifying cgroups is via this cgroup file system.
I am a new-ish Linux user. Can someone explain to me why systemd is so bad? Is it because it monopolized so many features? So it's not UNIX way of tiny programs working together? I feel like I am missing something.
You basically answered it yourself :) that's the typical argument, yeah. I personally really like systemd, and it's made our infrastructure at work easy to manage and deal with.
Unix was built around the human readable output of one binary being the input of another.
dbus, the carrier for much of the traffic between systemd parts, is far from human readable.
Also, one reason they give for developing everything in a single blob of code is that they can then change the protocol as they see fit.
This in turn makes it hard for third parties to replace a component, as they will constantly play catch up with the systemd developers.
Take logind for example. It depends on systemd-init being there and handling cgroups. Consolekit, what logind replaced, could be used on top of any init.
Gentoo forked udev into eudev after the former was merged with systemd, because it became a right pain to extract udev from the larger systemd code, even though at the time of merging it was promised that udev would still be usable separately. This because at every systemd release, the extraction process changed in some way or other.
With the traditional unix tools i can probably pipe some output from a GNU binary into busybox into a BSD binary and get the expected result. And if i don't i can break down the chain into parts, look at what they produce, and make adaptions right there in the terminal.
Anything similar for systemd will require a compiler and specialized tools for debugging dbus and whatsnot.
Maybe all this is fine in a devops environment where everything is in containers or virtual machines. But Linux got where it is because it was not just flexible, but also field repairable thanks to its unix heritage.
There are lots of reasons that systemd will probably never run on the Windows NT Linux subsystem, a few reasons that upstart won't run, and the possibility that one could run daemontools family toolsets with a fair degree of success; but a likely overall problem with invoking a service manager such that it is in a daemon context (outwith a login session) in the first place.
Microsoft hasn't announced this (yet), but syscall translation seems to be really well positioned for their container push. I fully expect that MS will announce Linux containers running on Windows Server using WSL. Already the perf is there.
Linux docker? I doubt it--there's a lot of low level kernel stuff docker needs like creating a chroot. That said MS has been working on a docker version for Windows. I dunno if they ever released many details on what exactly it is though, it's been a while since I've much from them on it.
Docker does lots of other complicated things (creating namespaces, setting up cgroups, setting up network interfaces and firewall rules). But the Docker windows container stuff is all in the main Docker repo. It requires proprietary software to use so I'm not really interested.
I expect this shiny new feature was introduced for exactly this reason - serve as a backed for a docker, both local development and cloud services. So - most likely support is coming
Yes, that's the plan. This is a syscall translation layer. In theory everything should run -- or most. I would not expect wireshark to run for example but I have very high hopes for autossh for example because Scott Hanselman have shown Redis running so higher level networking is there.
This is really good news. I rushed through my new laptop purchase and forgot to check the wireless card. Turns out the linux driver for my Realtek wifi causes a soft CPU lock up so I've been stuck on Windows 10 and doing work in a VM. Not nearly as fast and smooth.
I checked out the Surface Book briefly, and boy was it a massive disappointment. The screen is much more heavier than the keyboard so it's unbalanced, detaching and reattaching the screen is extremely awkward, and there were touch issues with the stylus that the salesperson could not resolve.
I get 9-10 hours on Linux with the UX305FA model (pre-Skylake fanless CoreM, i.e. MBA competitor). Not sure about the UX305LA model (i5/i7, i.e. MBP competitor).
I love the chromebook pixel with a debian chroot (aka crouton). I use the 2015 pixel with a 2560x1700 screen, i7, 16GB ram, and I get 12 hours battery life.
The chromebook pixel has been my only laptop for three years, and it's been rock solid. I never spend time troubleshooting. Setup upon upgrading from the 2013 to the 2015 pixel took about two minutes.
At this point, I'd prefer to use a chromebook rather than loading ubuntu on a laptop, because the stability of the pixel has saved me so much time.
I've been using Docker for my dev environment (Python, Django, Postgres, etc). I expose a folder with my code to the Docker container so I can keep editing the code on Windows using Sublime. One thing that has been annoying me is the fact that I can't get Python code completion on sublime because Python and the packages are in the container.
Does anyone know if it's possible to point Sublime to the Linux subsystem and get code completion? Also, has anyone tried installing Tensorflow yet?
Many (including me) feel that this is just the start of a new EEE cycle by a panicked Microsoft, and will be killed off by Microsoft once they managed to reverse their current downward trend – just like other supposedly community-/interoperability friendly projects before, e.g. this project's direct predecessor SFU.
Everyone migrates, draining valuable developer resources from projects like cygwin, mingw and colinux and others. When Microsoft kills it, they will have killed off not only their project, but also the community projects that could replace it.
Meanwhile, because the NT kernel has vastly different performance characteristics (e.g., bad forking performance), we're going to see an increase of "Linux/NT" optimized software that will perform poorly on native Linux kernels, pressuring more developers (and ops) to buy into Microsoft's effectively proprietary solution, completing a vendor lock-in that will continue to bleed the industry long after it stopped being beneficial (see also, every other instance of vendor lock-in ever).
No, that's not what embrace-extend-extinguish is about. The worry about EEE is that they establish dominance through vertical integration, introduce incompatibilities through both incompetence (bugs) and malicious behaviour (features), which will weaken and destroy the free standard implementations.
I'm not worried though. This is a neat hack, and may be useful for some people who for whatever personal reason won't switch to Linux proper, but it will not gain anything like the dominance required to push through incompatibilities. Unix applications already deal with a heterogenous environment, to say the least, and Winux will just be one more participant; not a particularly important one at that.
I feel like this seems like a way more developed strategy for keeping developers engaged... dotnet going open source and multiplatform is a pretty big gesture for just a downward trend thing.
I am a little scared from the distinction we are start to make between "computers" and "developers' computers"
In most computer nowadays you cannot code (tables and smartphones), are computers doomed to be an expensive tool for few "nerd" ? What will be the impact on computer literacy ?
What do you mean you "cannot" code on tablets and smartphones? There are nice interpreters and compilers in the official app stores for major mobiles OS, aren't there? I've used Python on iOS, Android and Windows Phone. Also J, Ocaml, some dialects of Lisp, C# and Ruby, that I can remember now (each language on at least one of those OSes, sometimes more than one). Not to mention these devices all come with web browsers which means at the very least you can use JavaScript (I've done at least one Project Euler question on an iPod Touch in CoffeeScript standing in line at the bank.)
The tablet I currently own cost me $80 and came with a C# compiler preinstalled! (Maybe that's an extreme example: It is a Windows tablet, and Android or iOS only come with JavaScript JIT compilers preinstalled.)
Edit: Just realized you might have meant _on_ the phone as in 'using the on screen keyboard'. Ug. That would be truly awful.
During one weekend in which my only options were android devices, I was pleasantly surprised by the packages available in termux. With tmux, git, and ssh installed, I mounted the tablet at the right height and connected a quality keyboard via usb. I actually forgot that I was coding on a tablet!
The phone experience was far more sensitive to maintaining good posture throughout, but being strongly incentivized to keep good posture actually made the experience more pleasant in a way. However, this particular phone was around 1280x720 I believe - seeing individual pixels again, and being pixel-limited (not physical size limited) in the use of panes in tmux were the only facets I found truly unpleasant.
I'm eager to try coding with a high res VR headset.
I've recently started using Termux on my phone with a bluetooth keyboard - I'm as productive as I would be doing dev over SSH. All the tools I'd use on a server are there (node, git, nano, etc). I've written a small API server with it and it wasn't a disaster. Admittedly I'm more productive when I'm on my laptop with Atom and a couple of monitors, but if that isn't an option I can still do work. It's a bonus rather than an alternative.
Those are "second-class" or even "third-class" citizens in the ecosystem. Can you use those language interpreters and compilers to write apps that can interact with the system and exchange data with the other apps? That's what makes the traditional, document-centric, PC ecosystem so powerful.
While being able to play around with Project Euler can be fun, it amounts to "I can run a Turing-machine simulator" and doesn't represent anything more than a tiny fraction of what people want to do with computers when they say they want to "code". You may as well be playing one of the numerous puzzle games that involve much of the same concepts.
To use your iPod Touch as an example, if it were more like a traditional desktop computer, you would also be able to do things like write an app to manage your music playlists.
The tablet I currently own cost me $80 and came with a C# compiler preinstalled! (Maybe that's an extreme example: It is a Windows tablet, and Android or iOS only come with JavaScript JIT compilers preinstalled.)
Not surprising if it's a Windows tablet based on the PC architecture - those are far closer to the traditional desktop than iDevices and Androids. If by C# compiler you're referring to the one that comes with the .NET framework, that's been there since the first versions; pity it's not so well known with MS trying to push VS as hard as possible...
Apparently, you can't really do anything on a tablet or phone. Or at least I can't. My phone app chose this particular comment as a nice time to play up and do a double posting. Hence the copy further down, which I am not allowed to delete.
I think the rise of P2P, file sharing, and the openness of the Internet in the last decade significantly narrowed the developer-user gap; and it's been growing since then, motivated by corporations' desire to maintain control over their users.
> motivated by corporations' desire to maintain control over their users.
I think that's only one factor, and not a majority one.
Most users don't want to have to deal with "how it works". They want a simple, easy to use tool that works reliably... And they want to call someone to "fix it" when it "breaks". That's how it works with plumbing, cars, landline phones, stereo components, televisions, and all the electronics they've ever used.
The exceptions are computers and some smartphones, which can present cryptic error messages, have weird things in their settings, and generally make a "dumb user" feel out of their element. Think about the confusion users feel when confronted with a funny noise in their car. "I'm not a mechanic, what does that noise mean?" is no different from "I'm not a computer person, what does that error mean?" What's more, the meaning of the question is not "what, mechanically/electrically, is at fault?" It is "how much time/money will it cost to get it fixed?"
It's not just a small preference, either - the height of luxury are "push button" services that "just work". Go to a high end hotel, and your room phone has just one button. Top end consumer products of all sorts struggle to be an easy-to-use "appliance". A dumbed down user interface without developer tools is user preference, it's status, it's customer comfort and pride, all tied into one.
IMO the most impressive thing about OSX is how well it supports both audiences: it feels like a push-button, high luxury, comfortable, easy device to my mother. But under the hood there are great logs and a solid BSD-based operating system model. It comes prepackaged with a lot of developer tools, hidden in a place where I would look right away, but my mother would never notice.
Sure, some companies use software to limit and control their customers (cough cough Sony), usually with sharp legal/lobbyist teeth to enforce that control. But 99% of companies out there just want to make their users feel comfortable, high status, and competent to use their device.
While I agree with RMS that this split is inevitable, I don't believe it's about control. It's about two distinct market segments: auto enthusiasts who want control over the torque settings in their high end car, and people who just want a car that fucking works. Chefs who want sector-by-sector control over their oven's heating profile, and people who just want to be able to cook a fucking roast without burning it.
The problem with push button service is that you need people interacting at the backend to make the magic happen. Those people cost money. If you try to provide apple-level simplicity at google-level prices you won't be able to afford those people. Google itself is a fine example. It works well, until it doesn't, and then you're stuck. Providing a power user interface on a consumer level product is imho a necessity if you leave problems up to the user to solve. At least it gives them a chance of getting unstuck.
And this is why people will pay Apple prices for Apple gear. If you provide a "power user interface" it's a sure sign you're trying to save $$$ by skimping on support and you don't care about the user. This goes even for professional tools; cf. Autodesk Inventor vs. AutoCAD; Visual Studio vs. editor and command line tools.
You can create content on tablets, and some of it is excellent content.
Development isn't done on tablets because the input devices we have to make code are limited to a keyboard, and most people think text files are code, rather than a serialisation/deserialisation format for an AST.
You could easily build an AST with gestures and speech rather than tapping buttons, and I think in 10-20 years time that's how we'll make software.
Plain text files are an incredibly powerful way of "storing ASTs", the advantages are far too numerous to list. The primary one being complete and total interoparability with all other tools that accept plain text files.
I will bet you £100 that we won't be programming by speech and gestures in even 25 years time as the disadvantages are enormous.
Get a better editor - one that lets you operate on semantic units. And/or get a better programming language - one that lets you operate on code as AST.
Sure, there are many (excellent) AST based editors. However an AST editor based on a keyboard, and requires you to learn to type at 160 WPM, won't help most tablets be good code creation devices.
Data structures are shapes. A shape is better drawn than described in text.
My point is - there are AST-based editors and languages (e.g. Emacs with Paredit and Common Lisp) and you can see that even in that mode of "thinking" about code, you can't beat the speed, efficiency and flexibility of the keyboard.
> Data structures are shapes. A shape is better drawn than described in text.
Draw me a linked list. Tell me how much faster it is than typing:
(list 1 2 (foobar) (make-hash-table) (list "a" "b" "c") 6)
Even on a visual keyboard on a tablet, it's faster to type than to draw data structures. A flat sheet of glass maybe gives us the ability to get the (x, y) coordinates of a touched point easier and with more precision, but it sacrifices many other important aspects - like tactile feedback and the ability to feel shapes. With physical keyboard, you're employing more of the features your body and mind has, and that's why it's faster than a touchscreen.
Unless you can find a completely different way of designing UX, then a tablet won't be a suitable device for creation. None of the currently existing solutions come close to beating a physical keyboard and a mouse.
> "list joe (subtle gesture) mary (subtle gesture) dave end
How will you go about drawing "joe" and "mary"? Is it faster than typing? Note that you can't always select stuff from dropdowns - you often have to create new symbols and values.
> Everyone in the room I'm in now can naturally talk at 200 words per minute.
How fast they can track back and correct a mistake made three words before? Or take the last sentence and make it a subnode of the one before that? Speech is not flexible enough for the task unless you go full AI and have software that understands what you mean.
> I gave an example of opening an existing structure and modifying it in the comment you're replying to.
Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant by "subtle gesture" there.
Anyway, in the original comment you said:
> Data structures are shapes. A shape is better drawn than described in text.
I'll grant you that speaking + gestures may not be a bad way of entering and manipulating small data structures and preforming simple operations. But until we have a technology that can recognize speech and gestures reliably and accurately (and tablets with OSes that don't lag and hang up for half a second at random), physical keyboards will still be much faster and much less annoying.
But I still doubt you could extend that to more complex editing and navigating tasks. Take a brief look at the things you can do in Paredit:
Consider the last three or four subsections and ask yourself, how to solve them with touch, gestures and speech. Are you going to drag some kind of symbolic representation of "tree node" to move a bunch elements into a sublevel? How about splitting a node into two at a particular point? Joining them together? Repeating this (or a more complex transformation) action 20 times in a row (that's what a decent editor has keyboard macros for)? Searching in code for a particular substring?
Sure, it can be done with the modes of input you're advocating, but I doubt it can be done in an efficient way that would still resemble normal speech and interaction. There are stories on the Internet of blind programmers using Emacs who can achieve comparable speed to sighted ones. This usually involves using voice pitch and style as a modifier, and also using short sounds for more complex operations. Like "ugh" for "function" and "barph" for "public class", etc. So yeah, with enough trickery it can be done. But the question is - unless you can't use the screen and the keyboard, why do it?
> Like in a DOM? Easily: grab it and move it, just like you do it in DevTools today, except with your hands rather than a mouse.
DevTools are a bad example for this task. Using keyboard is much faster and more convenient than mouse. C.f. Paredit.
> But until we have a technology that can recognize speech and gestures reliably and accurately (and tablets with OSes that don't lag and hang up for half a second at random)
Totally agreed. Theoretically, you should just be able to gesture a list with your hands and say "joe mary dave" and the software knows from your tone that's three items and not one.
I don't know that much about lisp and s-expressions asides from that it can edit it's own AST. That's not a way of avoiding the question, it's just my own lack of experience.
> Are you going to drag some kind of symbolic representation of "tree node" to move a bunch elements into a sublevel?
Yes, I already think of a tree of blocks/scopes when editing code with a keyboard, visualising that seems reasonable.
> Repeating this (or a more complex transformation) action 20 times in a row (that's what a decent editor has keyboard macros for).
Here's the kind of stuff I use an AST for: finding function declarations and making them function expressions. I imagine that would be (something to switch modes) "find function declarations and make them function expressions". Likewise "rename all instances of 'res' to 'result'" with either tone or placement to indicate the variable names. More complex operations on the doc would be very similar to complex operations in the doc.
> Searching in code for a particular substring?
Easy. Have a gesture or tone that makes 'search' a word for operating on the document, not in it.
> Sure, it can be done with the modes of input you're advocating, but I doubt it can be done in an efficient way that would still resemble normal speech and interaction.
Yep, I don't think it would still resemble normal speech and interaction either, the same way reading code aloud doesn't. It would however be easier to learn, removing the need to type efficiently as well as the (somewhat orthogonal) current unnecessary ability to create syntax errors.
> DevTools are a bad example for this task. Using keyboard is much faster and more convenient than mouse. C.f. Paredit.
Not sure if I'm reading you correctly here: typing DOM methods in a keyboard in devtools is obviously slower than a single drag and drop operation. Using hands to do it directly is obviously even faster with the mouse.
Stepping back a little: I guess some people assume speech and gestures won't get significantly better, I assume they will.
I think you're making good points, but please let me know when semantic editors are available for Go, Rust, JavaScript and Python.
One other advantage of directly manipulating AST - it's very easily converted into any language runtime you want. It won't matter if you are targeting the JVM, V8 or native bytecode; you can do it all from the same AST. This same thing is possible with plain text code, but not quite as common.
> I think you're making good points, but please let me know when semantic editors are available for Go, Rust, JavaScript and Python.
I think there are ports of paredit-like features to those languages in Emacs too, and all the other semantic features of Emacs itself work with those. As long as the language's major mode properly defines what is e.g. a function, a symbol, etc. you can use semantic navigation and editing.
> One other advantage of directly manipulating AST - it's very easily converted into any language runtime you want. It won't matter if you are targeting the JVM, V8 or native bytecode; you can do it all from the same AST. This same thing is possible with plain text code, but not quite as common.
I don't think this is something that AST gives you. AST is just a more machine-friendly representation of what you typed in the source code. Portability between different platforms depend on what bytecode/machine code gets generated from that AST. And since AST is generated from the compiled source anyway as one of the first steps in compilation, getting it to emit a right set of platform-specific instructions means you can compile the original source there too.
And AST doesn't solve the problem of calling platform-specific functions and libraries anyway.
> I will bet you £100 that we won't be programming by speech and gestures in even 25 years time as the disadvantages are enormous.
Unless AI advances considerably. For years I've imagined myself talking to the small specialized AI living in my computer, giving it instructions that it would translate to code...
I suddenly envision a "The feeling of power" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Feeling_of_Power )-type scenario, where one programmer suddenly discovers that he or she can understand and create binary patterns without relying on the AI.
Natural language is a terrible way to specify software.
Writing software is about telling a blazingly fast, literal, moron what to do. The ambiguity inherent in natural language is not a good way of telling such a thing what to do.
And if we _are_ Ima start buying Spotify ads that just shout out "semicolon exec open bracket mail space dash s space passwords space owned at gmail dot com space less than space slash etc slash passwd close bracket semicolon" at top volume.
You could easily build an AST with gestures and speech rather than tapping buttons, and I think in 10-20 years time that's how we'll make software.
I doubt it. Perhaps we'll be making ASTs by writing (i.e. drawing symbols with styli or pens), but I don't think we'll be doing it via gestures and speech. There's a reason that we don't teach math via interpretive dance.
> Recorded speech is also searchable so not sure that's relevant.
It is ; recorded speech is not very searchable, especially if you are talking in a group in a conference where people can be from different countries with different dialects (which is the normal situation for our group talks). Also it is not convenient and sometimes not possible to record every (conference) meeting (too much noise etc). With text it's automatically recorded and perfectly searchable...
Also some of my colleagues are not good at English listening but are very good technically; if I type what I mean they understand while if I/we tell them, everything has to be translated and/or repeated many times.
I think the tech is not there yet to say it's not relevant.
Totally agreed the tech is not there yet. I just also believe at the current rate machine learning is going it the issues will soon be much less relevant.
I hope so but that has been a long standing promise. For me no amount of voice to text beats typing. I do not know why but things like Dragon basically give me gibberish. And that is with natural language. With natural language, code and math it is just vomit. I have no clue how they will solve that soon and then mix.it with translation as well. Hope there is though.
I can't say I've found any scenarios where talking to someone is many times less efficient than typing them a message. There are certainly times where it's helpful to supplement conversation with code, but that's a different story.
Regarding being easier to search and read it again, it seems like there are potential technical solutions to that problem, but I would agree that we're not there yet.
Like 'Zecc said, maybe they don't care about the third parties present. Or maybe they want everyone to be a part of the conversation, which is often fine. Or maybe they talk about emotional matters.
But text is a pretty fine form of communication and I find myself using it very often at work (and at home I often talk this way to people not in the same room, but in the same flat). It's fast, it's convenient, it's less disrupting, and the only reason to avoid it are some silly preconceptions that digital communiction is somehow "worse" than spoken words.
Also, you never passed papers to your friends while in school? That's pre-smartphone equivalent of IM.
Actually AST edition with touch interface has been experimented by MS Research with Touch develop (https://www.touchdevelop.com/). In their editor you just insert/combine AST parts instead of typing them.
It depends. If you spend some time writing in Lisp, you'll learn how it is to write in AST, including navigating and editing it as tree and not strings of characters. And you'll see that the keyboard is still the most convenient interface we have for that. Touch, gestures and speech lack both speed and precision to be effective at this job.
I would put Instagram or SnapChat firmly into the production column. While many do not like the "output" of this production, that does not change the fact.
And a lot of music creation apps exist for tablets/phones.
I think we need a better set of words for this, but I'd still put Instagram and SnapChat on the consumption side - "producing" a photo and maybe applying a sticker and a filter isn't really production. Those features are designed to spruce up the photo that is fed directly into the consumption loop without much context or sense to it.
Now don't get me wrong - while I only use the two a little, I think they're fine. It's communication, an important part of human experience. But, at least in my mind, Instagram and Snapchat fall firmly into the same group as browsing Facebook or 9gag, as opposed to e.g. making a let's play video or a comic strip.
For now, it is true that most "professional" productivity apps are on laptops / desktops.
Yes, there are ways to take photos and create music on tablets and phones. You can do some basic editing on them, even. But the "professional" tools for photography and music, with all the bells and whistles you can think of, are still dominated by laptop / desktop computer programs. (The dominant programs being Photoshop for images, and DAWs like Logic, Ableton Live, and Pro Tools for music.)
The distinction between "production" and "consumption" devices is indeed kind of too rigid in a sense that, of course, professionals will utilize the creative tools that come on tablets and phones, even if the desktop / laptop programs are the primary tool. Tablets also can shine as an extended interface for desktop programs. (EG: Logic Pro (and others) have apps that turns an iPad into a remote controller for the main DAW. There are programs like Astropad that turn your iPad into a Wacom-like tablet for Photoshop, etc.)
The obstacle is interface. The fine-tuned control of a tablet or (especially) a phone is much poorer than using a mouse and keyboard with a large screen. Until that gets resolved, I doubt desktops / laptops will go anywhere.
All of this will disappear within the next 5 years, as the distinction between programming and consumption narrows down.
It seems like a vast majority of software developers, consciously or not, do not wish for software development to improve beyond a certain point as they fear it would become too accessible and therefore lower the value of their skills. The truth is that we actively make programming as difficult as possible, and everybody loses. I can understand that writing code as text would make sense 50 years ago, but there is no excuse for this today.
Consumer UI is now reaching the 3rd dimension with AR and VR, while software development is stuck in the 1st dimension. A long linear piece of string. It is difficult to believe that those who have the power to create great consumer UX are completely blind to improving their own. Software development has some of the worst UX ever.
The solution to all of those issues has been known for a while, and is dead simple to understand. We need to create a new communication platform, powered by ideas from logic programming and the semantic web. Think of it as 2 huge semantic knowledge graphs, the first describing the real state of the world, the second describing the ideal state of the world. Build a UI on top of it (which should feel more like a graph-oriented Excel than RDF/Prolog) to let people, agents and IoT devices communicate "what is" and "what should be". Then, all it takes is an inference algorithm that can match providers with seekers, get them to commit to some set of world changes (through some sort of contract), and let people manage and track the commitments/tasks they're expected to get done. That's it, that replaces 80% of software needs. Thank you very much.
Interesting ideas (even though your prediction regarding the next five years seems rather... bold).
Where is this vision sketched in some more detail? Any links?
I always find that comments like this are doom and gloom and never celebratory that we might reach a point where computers are finally stable and secure enough to be treated like appliances. The first automobiles required dozens of steps just to start the engine, did people back then lament the difference between "cars" and "mechanics' cars"?
Have you met an average user? The mandatory updates, lack of permissions and sandboxing are only a good thing for a user with typical computer literacy level.
Hell, even lack of window management in iOS/Android systems is making UX much more easier to understand for majority of users I know. My granddad, who was an excellent mechanical engineer, have been using computers for the last 20 years, and he still struggles with click/double-click distinction.
The mandatory updates, lack of permissions and sandboxing are only a good thing for a user with typical computer literacy level.
Only if you want to keep them illiterate, which companies are more than happy to do since it means they can be more easily persuaded and dependent consumers.
It probably isn't if the attitudes in present IT world continue. But it doesn't have to be this way - about the only thing needed to fix this situation is to create an expectation that yes, you have to sit down and spend 5 minutes learning before you can use this stuff effectively.
Somehow nobody complains that cars, or microwave ovens are too complicated. Everybody knows they have to learn how to use them - either through a training course or just by reading a manual.
Most people really do not care enough to learn past a 'just use it' detail.
Are my parents or family interested in password managers ? Heck no... why should they, because the browser will remember stuff for them.
Permissions ? You have to be joking... they want to read their email or draw a picture.
Computers are there to make life easy - they're convenience tools (for the mass market). If people have to understand them more than switch them on a press a few buttons, they've failed.
It's not the IT world... for years, we were outcast as geeks and nerds (they were insults in the past). It's that the average person doesn't want (or need) to know about this.
> Most people really do not care enough to learn past a 'just use it' detail.
True, but there is still some learning to do. The only way you can reduce it (barring solving general AI and making a system that actually knows what you mean) is by reducing the things a device/piece of software can do. That's what the industry is doing - cutting out features, turning software into shiny toys. Because from the market perspective, is enough that the people sign up / buy the product - it doesn't have to be actually useful.
That's why software for professionals look complicated - because there the company actually has to make a useful tool. This state of thing is sadly a big loss for humanity - if the only way to make stuff "sexy" is to make it barely useful, then the general population is in fact missing out on all the amazing things technology could allow.
(And the tech people are missing out too, because they're too small a niche. It's more profitable to target the masses instead. That's why all mobile devices are getting dumber.)
> It's not the IT world... for years, we were outcast as geeks and nerds (they were insults in the past). It's that the average person doesn't want (or need) to know about this.
Oh but it is the IT world. We've been invaded by the "normal people" and we've lost the battle. Most programmers employed nowadays are not much different from your average non-tech person, and have nowhere near the technical expertise you'd associate with the "geek and nerds" of the past.
> How many people service their own car ?
I'm not talking about servicing, but about driving. You have to spent 30+ hours in training to be allowed to drive on a public road. Nobody complains because people understand that to use the car well, you have to learn how to do it.
You probably were taught how to use most of those by your parents, either directly or by observing. I find it hard to believe that any time you're dealing with a new class of appliances for the first time, you don't even peek at the manual or some tutorials.
I say class, because most tosters work the same, most microwaves work the same, most smartphones work the same and most 3D modelling programs work the same too. But you have to get that first little bit of knowledge about the class of tools from somewhere, even if from your own experimentation. Humans aren't born with knowledge how to use technology.
> and he still struggles with click/double-click distinction.
Have you tried teaching him that? I highly doubt an old person, especially one with engineering background, will have trouble with understanding the distinction if someone bothers explaining it to them.
Or in general - it's surprising how much non-tech people can understand about technology if someone bothers to sit down with them and explain the concepts to them. Usually the reason they don't learn this stuff themselves is the typical human impulse of "if I haven't figured it out in 3 seconds flat, it's too difficult and I won't understand it".
I think this split is going to get worse, especially in the Apple ecosystem. Their apparent desire is that the iPad and Pro are the computer replacement but there isn't (or will anytime soon) a way to create applications for those platforms from that (iOS) environment. Their, admittedly market-speak, statements on stage hint that they would like to see the the tablets/phones replace desktops for the larger userbase. Odd times.
What do you mean? I pick up my Android phone and I've got an app that gives me a python shell, "terminal ide" which includes tons of cli developer tools like a C compiler and various editors, a full debian install I use for more secure SSH (using real openssh) and development and even some operations on various servers. There are full out Java IDEs on Android that you can install even.
So here's just a few ways you can code on Android:
If desktops become more expensive, it'll just mean people are more motivated to make tools like this. Android phones and tablets are basically treated as cheap commodities and there's an extremely competitive market for them, if anything, the entry price has gone down.
Now, admittedly I'm not sure how this situation is on iOS, but maybe someone could link similar tools on there?
There's definitely a productivity hit, but it's also not the kind of thing that isolates people. For the cost of a cheap BT keyboard you can be fairly productive using just a tablet, even a phone maybe. If you have a TV and use casting, a phone could do quite well.
The contention wasn't that coding on a phone or tablet isn't productive, it was that you can't do it. I love Pythonista on my iPad, and the latest version makes coding on my phone surprisingly feasible. I wrote a version of snake on my 6+ with my kids.
Man i do think this is a big step for windows , it's 2016 and still complex to pull a du -sh or df on windows.
Things we take for granted on *nixes.
Much love.
And you just built du with a single line of PowerShell.
Also, you demonstrated the full syntax. The short form would be (leveraging aliases, positional parameters and unambiguous short parameter names):
Microsoft provides a du implementation in sysinternals stuff, but you have to install it and I think even accept a licence in a graphical window the first time you launch it...
They have neglected the CLI for years and powershell while I guess it has its uses for scripting is light years behind *nix stuff as an interactive shell.
>but you have to install it and I think even accept a licence in a graphical window
You can -accepteula from the command line and the "installation" is downloading and extracting a zip file. If there's an internet connection, you could even run it straight off of Micrsoft's servers via SMB.
Does anybody know if this interface is Linux kernel functions + whatever POSIX is required to run Ubuntu stuff? I haven't seen that addressed, which strikes me as strange because it could have some pretty serious implications. Am I worrying over nothing, or could this make POSIX irrelevant pretty quickly as the new portability standard becomes the Linux ABI. I've cheered on Microsoft's recent moves in open source, but if they wanted to deal a serious blow - rendering POSIX irrelevant would be pretty devastating.
It's Linux syscall emulation. As for the death of POSIX, many unixes have had the same (even superior) functionality for years. POSIX wasn't dead yesterday. It isn't dead today
Because Microsoft wants to lock in developers to their expensive OS so they can make billions more, obviously. It's because programmers are expected to not be the smartest bunch and just be shoveled around with a bit of money and marketing expenditure. You know we took all the free stuff and made it proprietary, come serve are corporate goals. Meanwhile they have been allegedly screwing over Linux for years with backend deals with companies like Foxconn.
Because many people like Windows and develop on/for it, but also develop server-side code which generally requires Linux... so we don't have to keep virtualising OSs or running multiple machines - we can now develop for both within a single desktop.
This is exactly the type of thing that many people want.
What I wanted is to run Windows in a Virtual Machine on my Linux box. Can I do that? Not without paying Microsoft $150. You can get their trial to run for 90 days, but it sucks having it expire and shut off after a few mins.
Windows isn't free software. You can't expect to run it for free just because it's in a VM. Honestly being able to run it for 90 days for free (after which all you have to do is go back to an earlier snapshot) seems pretty good to me.
Or you can purchase one of those cheap Win8/Win10 Pads for less than 100$ and connect them via vnc to your Linux box. Works pretty well for me with an 8" Dell Venue.
I like the Unix command line, but I don't really like Desktop Linux anymore (after having it used for >10 years), that's why I use OS X at home. At work I'm required to use Windows because I develop Windows software, so it's actually quite exciting that I get to use my most useful Unix utilities on my work computer as well.
I used KDE 3 and Gnome 2 for many years (Windows also). and switched to LXDE/OpenBox after KDE 4 and Gnome 3 turned out to be unusable.
Although my current desktop is very simple it has become one of my best desktops ever because it can be configured to the extreme. It is very suitable for developers who want a clean workspace which doesn't get in their way like all the other modern desktops (Win 8+ also) which focus more on eye candy than usability.
That's where I'm sitting. Sometimes I want to jump between gaming and working on personal development projects. Even with an SSD, rebooting anytime I want to do that is just a pain.
Can't agree with you. Adding one option into grub config for Xeon CPUs and one optional (you don't need ACS patch if one PCI / PCIe port used) kernel patch for Intel consumer CPUs is clearly not "pain in ass".
It's might be hard to setup few years ago, but now it's super easy. With AMD hardware everything just work out-of-box.
There are a lot of companies that run large numbers of tools only available on Windows, often including expensive in-house tools.
Having people in the company run different OSes cost a lot of money because of the duplicate tools that has to be adapted or created for different OSes.
Here is what I consider to be the perfect example of where this fits into the development world. From my employer, I'm given a laptop, running Windows 8.1. All of my work for the past 2 years has been in developing a .NET line-of-business application, but I was recently asked to prototype an application to automate and streamline a collection of Excel spreadsheets. (Don't laugh; I've kind of made a career out of this sort of thing.)
For this project, I could choose the programming environment. Well, my tool of choice, for the past 10 years, has been Rails. I prototyped the application on my MBP within 10 hours, but needed to be able to work on the site with my corporate laptop, so I setup a Linux VM, and setup 2 networks (one host-only to share files, and one NAT'd to get through the corporate firewall), configured the folder shares, and got everything going the "VirtualBox" way. It's a pain.
Like a lot of Fortune 500's, the IT resources are locked down to the point of being combative. There's no way I can take my MBP to the office and work on the company LAN. (You can get an exception, but you have to ask for special permission every single day.) This project SUPPOSES to allow me to open a shell, install RVM, install Ruby and git, download my sources, bundle install, and do `rails -s` to do development. (The application is just using sqlite for the database, so I don't even need to mess with MySQL for now.) If everything works like it should, I can just use Sublime Text 3 as my editor to work on the files, and host on the Linux subsystem. When it's time, I can `git push` my sources to the TFS server, and deploy them on the Linux VM running in Azure.
So that was kind of long, but this is how I see it working and fitting into my world. Against my better judgement, I'm letting my gaming rig (re)upgrade to 10 to try this out. I don't know when my company's IT department will standardize on Windows 10; we just got 8 last year. I just want to see if this can really fill the niche it supposes.
Well... nuts. On the other hand... I'm positive that my company's IT policies were -- like a lot of other massive manufacturing companies -- written by proxy via an even-more-massive consulting agency back when SOX happened. I can't help but I wonder if this will escape their notice. But, yeah, if Norton anti-virus heuristics get excited... Crap.
As a user of both worlds I can think of Better touchpad drivers, saner high DPI support, font rendering preference, simple composite window manager that supports easy snapping.
Smart move by Windows. I guess that developer usage of an OS ultimately results in developer developments for the OS, though I don't have any number for this. It seems to me that a lot of developers, especially at startups, have switched to OS X with its shiny GUI and UNIX compatibility. I'd hazard the guess that this will ultimately result in OS X becoming more of a developer target over time. Initially for developer-related stuff (see Dash as an example that is only available for OS X (and Zeal for Linux)), but later probably for other stuff as well.
What's illustrative for the dominance of *NIXes in development are the number of projects on Github that contain only +NIX installation instructions and no Windows instructions (again, anecdata).
So if Windows wants to remain competitive, they need to retain developers. And as the +nix way of developing seems to be dominant now in quite a number of fields, Microsoft needs to adapt.
Why, you're asking, do I think that the +NIX way of development is dominant today? In a nutshell, Web -> Unix Servers -> POSIX shells -> Languages that work best with POSIX -> OSs that are POSIX-compliant.
Edit: Asterisks don't work as expected here. At least not in a Markdown-compatible way.
Is it that smart?
Being developer friendly sounds like just plain common-sense, not some genius breakthrough.
The question should be more why has it taken them so long to get to this point.
They always tried to be Microsoft developer friendly, and I think sort of assumed that UNIX was going to go away when they won. But it's now clear that UNIX has won for web services, and the web has beaten old-style client-server. And
the Windows remote admin/cloud admin/mass deployment features appear to have lost as well.
Maybe. It is definitely the common-sense thing to do today, five years ago, it would have been smart. From a pre-Nadella perspective, you could have called it revolutionary, but now we're used to Microsoft participating in OSS, so it's much less so.
The ability to do 'curl some-site.com | bash' or ssh <hostname> 'curl some-site.com | bash' without having to worry about platform compatibility would be amazing.
Installing a package manually vetted by distribution maintainers, signed and verified with GPG, is the same as blindly running a random script off the internet?
I don't think you appreciate how much effort Linux distributions invested into creating safe ways of distributing software.
The difference being that distro packages are distributed in a safe matter (signing and verification) whereas a website could be hijacked and the script replaced or you could get MITM'd if you access it over HTTP.
I doubt it, and part of me hopes not. This seems like a new possible vector for malware.
Microsoft went to great lengths to disallow these kind of one-liners in PowerShell (you need to explicitly add -executionpolicy bypass to even run a script), so apparently they are concerned about users executing random scripts off the net.
OTOH, yes, being able to assume bash on a user's installation would be amazing of course...
> Microsoft went to great lengths to disallow these kind of one-liners in PowerShell (you need to explicitly add -executionpolicy bypass to even run a script), so apparently they are concerned about users executing random scripts off the net.
Yes and I fucking hate it, way to cut of useful functionality at the knees.
This is not about Bash or any GNU software per se. Bash is just an example of a Linux executable that can be run on this system. One can apt-get install many more Ubuntu application binaries.
Please invest some time to understand what it's about technically.
I do understand that technically speaking, this is an implementation of Linux-compatible APIs/ABIs on Windows, so an ELF binary targetting POSIX-compatible environment could be ran on Windows. No dependencies on GNU OS parts here, of course.
However, please notice that it's also marketed as - quoting the article - "the ability to run native Bash and GNU/Linux command-line tools [on Windows]" and currently implemented as GNU-based OS (Ubuntu) running on Windows. So - in practice - essentially, it's MS-supported (although hosted by Canonical) GNU on Windows.
> So - in practice - essentially, it's MS-supported (although hosted by Canonical) GNU on Windows.
I don't care how it's marketed.
Let me remind you that there have been numerous ports of GNU tools for the Windows operating system in the past. This does not allow you to run any more GNU tools on Windows than you previously had.
Therefore, essentially, this is not about "GNU on Windows". This is about running "Ubuntu Linux software on Windows" including, of course, and in addition to numerous other tools, the GNU tools.
Also, the original statement was: "That is just GNU running on the Windows kernel." This is obviously not just that.
433 comments
[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 311 ms ] threadI guess this bash on ubuntu on windows won't be available for Windows 7?
Use preview builds at your own risk, though.
-MSFT
Don't get me wrong, I've been fine using a "remote" VM machine locally for linux, and a lot of my work the past few years has been that way (CIFS in the VM, to run a gui editor on the desktop), but to be able to run closer to native is a good thing imho... hopefully it stays well supported.
The main advantage over a VM is no resource partitioning: on a 4GB RAM tablet with 64GB eMMC, you can't allocate more than 2GB RAM to a VM without trouble, and putting 20GB of disk aside for it is also a pain., and much improved power efficiency (even an idle VM drastically reduces battery life, while Ubuntu for Windows doesn't).
Compared to Cygwin: a lot more packages are available, a lot more just works out of the box, and you can painlessly use online tutorials for Linux, which often assume Ubuntu and don't consider Cygwin a target platform.
I haven't tried zsh, but I'm pretty sure you can install it. I installed a bunch of applications, including using third party repos and ppa's. I don't see why zsh would not work.
Perhaps zsh uses some unsupported escape sequences (for instance, screen doesn't seem to work), but you can readily work around that by using another terminal in windows (mintty) or launching a VNC server from Linux and a VNC client to your localhost I assume.
* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11417227
It's readily apparent from the error messages earlier in this sub-thread that the zsh problem isn't to do with escape sequences. And of course the screen problem (at least the one known so far) is not escape sequences, either.
* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11416392
root@localhost:~# zsh compaudit:105: wait failed: invalid argument compdef:95: wait failed: invalid argument localhost# exit zsh: you have running jobs. localhost#
Will have to try again after the next build.
The native Windows versions of git and CMake can be awfully slow [1].
[1]: https://gist.github.com/jibsen/7ebeddde3bc2bfd421b96ae53a824...
Edit: removed sarcasm tags.
can you check what happens after you wake from sleep/hibernation? are those apps still fully functioning?
glxinfo reports
glxgears works for about a second, then crashes: When i run it from strace, it keeps running.edit: Specifically, I want to understand to what extent - if any - will it allow some of the horror problems you have working with certain Python libraries (compiling Numpy on Windows is like pulling teeth) to be a thing of the past. I'd be more than happy to work in WinBash for Python if it means having the easy Linux install processes available for some of the more scientific packages.
Python on Windows is painful mostly because of the amount of binary packages that have to be compiled since distributing binary packages hasn't been in vogue until only recently with Python. You can save a ton of trouble using something like Anaconda, or honestly just run a Linux VM. If you're compiling numpy you're doing something wrong IMHO--use a prebuilt version that's optimized for your processor (ideally using Intel's commercial compiler with full SSE, etc. optimizations).
You can't just use /home/chx/todo.txt as a path from any Windows application, but you can find that file through some other path.
The opposite is also true: the linux subsystem files are mounted under a regular directory in windows, so you can see all the files but from the normal windows subsystem you can't execute the linux binaries.
It means there is a big wall between the two systems, and you can't really automate windows things with bash instead of PS if you wanted. At this point though I find that to be a benefit - It would be fantastically confusing if you typed "find" or "python" and had to wonder whether a linux program or a windows program would actually execute.
Moreover, getting stuff like OpenCV to work is a pain, and I find that the deep learning packages (e.g.: theano) get even worse.
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/virtualization/windowsconta...
Too bad, that would really be a game changer for me. Running bash itself though... yeah, ok, whatever. But maybe I'm not the target audience.
Why is that? Because the containers are running in Hyper-V? From a user standpoint I doubt you'd notice any difference, especially once Hyper-V is supported in Windows 10:
https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/windowsserver/2016/04/04...
https://caleblloyd.com/hardware/docker-performance-bare-meta...
All hail Winux though. (That's the name for this mix I came up with.)
Before you downvote this without thinking ... consider, for example, KDE is severely understaffed and this will deplete them further. Who will bother with X.org bugs and drivers now? What's the point? Who is your target audience? You need to drink a real big dose of Stallman kool-aid to continue with Linux if this thing on Windows works as promised.
I have been using Linux solely on my laptop since 2004. I am sick of the constant driver problems. Yes, yes, you can connect to your home router or the router in the cafe. Now go and try and connect to an enterprise network. Perhaps with VPN.
But it has been improving all the time with every single release. The problem is that you (and millions of people who were looking for Linux desktop to "win") are just not excited anymore since new form factors (phones, tablets) arrived.
But I actually think Linux desktop is a winner. There are several high quality desktop enviroments suitable for all kinds of use cases.
Yeah we are not dominating the world. That was a short naive dream in the early 2000. But we have awesome desktops and thats what matters.
Disclaimer: minor KDE contributor but these were my thoughts not KDE's.
Btw, give KDE a try its so good these days :)
It becomes even more approachable by "Winux". Let people learn the basic of the CLI and get comfy with more open source tools -- then reinstall your computer to a Linux distro (and put your Win-only apps in a VM or on Wine) is a small move.
Same for some IT professionals that use Windows (either since their job demands it, or out of preference). They might install Winux at some point to get some aspect of their work done faster. Again a lower barrier to get your CLI skills up and get comfy with common open source tools.
I believe there is a lot of value in "CLI skills and common open source tools" that Windows users are currently missing out on.
I've deemed it "Frankenstein OS" because they've sewn a whole bunch of parts together to make an unwieldy monster that doesn't quite work as good as the individual pieces did on their own.
That being said, I'm typing this comment my workstation running Linux and I for one am getting very tired of this year of the Linux desktop joke.
What OS you run is an individual choice, stop trying to declare a single winner.
You != masses.
There might not be a clear single winner, but there is a clear single loser. Statistically speaking.
Myself and a lot of other people are using GNU/Linux and other libre operating systems with great pleasure and, finally, growing hardware support. I could not care less if 90% of desktops are Windows systems or if an additional 9% are OS X machines or whatever.
tl;dr: Just use what works for you. If it supports your ethical values, itäs even better!
Realistically linux did hit it big, but on a phone OS. It's now one of the most installed kernels in the world, but its brand is hidden. Linux is also incredibly important in the server space, and everyone knows this.
Linux will never have its year on the desktop in my opinion, but it will still be all over the place in the server/phone space. It just won out in other areas than the desktop.
They were not actually, this is a myth. A few tech "journalists" wrote such articles which people started making fun of. But no, regular Linux users never claimed that, or at least not in any significant number that I know of.
They lost me with all the rewriteritis and monodaemonisation that followed. I switched to MacOS (hackintosh) and was very happy for a while, since it could run all the Unix stuff, most of the productivity stuff (MS Office), and many games. It was for a long time the most plain, conservative OS (while Windows was going crazy with 8).
But recently, I've found Windows to be the OS that "just works" and gets out of my way - which was pretty surprising to me.
If anybody killed alternative desktops, it is not MS, but the desktops themselves.
I've had the opposite experience. Windows does not "just work" and it certainly does not "stay out of the way".
I have USB headphones I can't use in Windows because they connect but Windows doesn't let me switch to them. When I plug in an external monitor my OS comes to a crawl and it doesn't speed back up until I restart the whole thing. When I unplug a monitor it loses my windows.
And did you hear the story about the guy who lost his job because Windows decided to update the .NET framework right before he was scheduled to do a presentation at a business meeting? Doesn't sound like Windows stays out of the way to me.
I wish Windows "just worked" but it doesn't. It breaks all the time unless you're a power user. Giving my parents Linux was the best thing I ever did for them because it turned their laptops from a source of constant frustration to an always-on communication machine. We went from hundreds of ads and dozens of toolbars on windows to a Linux machine that just works.
Now I'm just trying to get my dad to switch to Linux for work so he doesn't have to install his printer drivers again every time he wants to print something. All he uses for work is Chrome any way.
For most people, this would be a problem with the USB headphones, not with Windows. On the other hand, if the USB headphones work well in Windows but not in Ubuntu, then it's a problem with Ubuntu, not the USB headphones.
This is why it's impossible to have a rational debate about the state of the "Linux desktop".
> No new system calls are added for cgroups - all support for querying and modifying cgroups is via this cgroup file system.
Per https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/cgroup-v1/cgroups.t...
Windows: a better linux than linux.
Unix was built around the human readable output of one binary being the input of another.
dbus, the carrier for much of the traffic between systemd parts, is far from human readable.
Also, one reason they give for developing everything in a single blob of code is that they can then change the protocol as they see fit.
This in turn makes it hard for third parties to replace a component, as they will constantly play catch up with the systemd developers.
Take logind for example. It depends on systemd-init being there and handling cgroups. Consolekit, what logind replaced, could be used on top of any init.
Gentoo forked udev into eudev after the former was merged with systemd, because it became a right pain to extract udev from the larger systemd code, even though at the time of merging it was promised that udev would still be usable separately. This because at every systemd release, the extraction process changed in some way or other.
With the traditional unix tools i can probably pipe some output from a GNU binary into busybox into a BSD binary and get the expected result. And if i don't i can break down the chain into parts, look at what they produce, and make adaptions right there in the terminal.
Anything similar for systemd will require a compiler and specialized tools for debugging dbus and whatsnot.
Maybe all this is fine in a devops environment where everything is in containers or virtual machines. But Linux got where it is because it was not just flexible, but also field repairable thanks to its unix heritage.
* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11416376
http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/clone.2.html
You might need http://www.straightrunning.com/XmingNotes/ for GUI.
I'd rather hold out for the next iteration.
I'm aware not all reviews is equal, so pointing out errors or adding better resources would be appreciated.
[0]: http://www.techradar.com/reviews/pc-mac/laptops-portable-pcs...
[1]: http://www.trustedreviews.com/12-inch-macbook-2015-review-ba...
[2]: http://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Air-13-2015-Noteb...
The chromebook pixel has been my only laptop for three years, and it's been rock solid. I never spend time troubleshooting. Setup upon upgrading from the 2013 to the 2015 pixel took about two minutes.
At this point, I'd prefer to use a chromebook rather than loading ubuntu on a laptop, because the stability of the pixel has saved me so much time.
- Find with exec , xargs is supported?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX
If yes then...well...same can happen to any kind of software / project
Everyone migrates, draining valuable developer resources from projects like cygwin, mingw and colinux and others. When Microsoft kills it, they will have killed off not only their project, but also the community projects that could replace it.
Meanwhile, because the NT kernel has vastly different performance characteristics (e.g., bad forking performance), we're going to see an increase of "Linux/NT" optimized software that will perform poorly on native Linux kernels, pressuring more developers (and ops) to buy into Microsoft's effectively proprietary solution, completing a vendor lock-in that will continue to bleed the industry long after it stopped being beneficial (see also, every other instance of vendor lock-in ever).
I'm not worried though. This is a neat hack, and may be useful for some people who for whatever personal reason won't switch to Linux proper, but it will not gain anything like the dominance required to push through incompatibilities. Unix applications already deal with a heterogenous environment, to say the least, and Winux will just be one more participant; not a particularly important one at that.
In most computer nowadays you cannot code (tables and smartphones), are computers doomed to be an expensive tool for few "nerd" ? What will be the impact on computer literacy ?
http://www.ubuntu.com/tablet/developers https://plus.google.com/u/0/105864202742705090915/posts/jNvZ...
The tablet I currently own cost me $80 and came with a C# compiler preinstalled! (Maybe that's an extreme example: It is a Windows tablet, and Android or iOS only come with JavaScript JIT compilers preinstalled.)
During one weekend in which my only options were android devices, I was pleasantly surprised by the packages available in termux. With tmux, git, and ssh installed, I mounted the tablet at the right height and connected a quality keyboard via usb. I actually forgot that I was coding on a tablet!
The phone experience was far more sensitive to maintaining good posture throughout, but being strongly incentivized to keep good posture actually made the experience more pleasant in a way. However, this particular phone was around 1280x720 I believe - seeing individual pixels again, and being pixel-limited (not physical size limited) in the use of panes in tmux were the only facets I found truly unpleasant.
I'm eager to try coding with a high res VR headset.
While being able to play around with Project Euler can be fun, it amounts to "I can run a Turing-machine simulator" and doesn't represent anything more than a tiny fraction of what people want to do with computers when they say they want to "code". You may as well be playing one of the numerous puzzle games that involve much of the same concepts.
To use your iPod Touch as an example, if it were more like a traditional desktop computer, you would also be able to do things like write an app to manage your music playlists.
The tablet I currently own cost me $80 and came with a C# compiler preinstalled! (Maybe that's an extreme example: It is a Windows tablet, and Android or iOS only come with JavaScript JIT compilers preinstalled.)
Not surprising if it's a Windows tablet based on the PC architecture - those are far closer to the traditional desktop than iDevices and Androids. If by C# compiler you're referring to the one that comes with the .NET framework, that's been there since the first versions; pity it's not so well known with MS trying to push VS as hard as possible...
Yes, you can. See https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aide.ui
http://boingboing.net/2012/08/23/civilwar.html
http://boingboing.net/2012/01/10/lockdown.html
...and RMS predicted this almost 20 years ago:
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html
I think the rise of P2P, file sharing, and the openness of the Internet in the last decade significantly narrowed the developer-user gap; and it's been growing since then, motivated by corporations' desire to maintain control over their users.
I think that's only one factor, and not a majority one.
Most users don't want to have to deal with "how it works". They want a simple, easy to use tool that works reliably... And they want to call someone to "fix it" when it "breaks". That's how it works with plumbing, cars, landline phones, stereo components, televisions, and all the electronics they've ever used.
The exceptions are computers and some smartphones, which can present cryptic error messages, have weird things in their settings, and generally make a "dumb user" feel out of their element. Think about the confusion users feel when confronted with a funny noise in their car. "I'm not a mechanic, what does that noise mean?" is no different from "I'm not a computer person, what does that error mean?" What's more, the meaning of the question is not "what, mechanically/electrically, is at fault?" It is "how much time/money will it cost to get it fixed?"
It's not just a small preference, either - the height of luxury are "push button" services that "just work". Go to a high end hotel, and your room phone has just one button. Top end consumer products of all sorts struggle to be an easy-to-use "appliance". A dumbed down user interface without developer tools is user preference, it's status, it's customer comfort and pride, all tied into one.
So 99% of companies end up designing their interfaces like that hotel phone: http://salestores.com/stores/images/images_747/IPN330091.jpg
IMO the most impressive thing about OSX is how well it supports both audiences: it feels like a push-button, high luxury, comfortable, easy device to my mother. But under the hood there are great logs and a solid BSD-based operating system model. It comes prepackaged with a lot of developer tools, hidden in a place where I would look right away, but my mother would never notice.
Sure, some companies use software to limit and control their customers (cough cough Sony), usually with sharp legal/lobbyist teeth to enforce that control. But 99% of companies out there just want to make their users feel comfortable, high status, and competent to use their device.
While I agree with RMS that this split is inevitable, I don't believe it's about control. It's about two distinct market segments: auto enthusiasts who want control over the torque settings in their high end car, and people who just want a car that fucking works. Chefs who want sector-by-sector control over their oven's heating profile, and people who just want to be able to cook a fucking roast without burning it.
Tablets and phones are consumption. You can't do any serious work on them - development included.
This is why laptops and computers have stuck around in spite of the proliferation of cheap, tiny, elegant consumption devices.
So no, I don't think laptops and computers will go away for non-nerds, just for people who don't produce anything.
Development isn't done on tablets because the input devices we have to make code are limited to a keyboard, and most people think text files are code, rather than a serialisation/deserialisation format for an AST.
You could easily build an AST with gestures and speech rather than tapping buttons, and I think in 10-20 years time that's how we'll make software.
I will bet you £100 that we won't be programming by speech and gestures in even 25 years time as the disadvantages are enormous.
Data structures are shapes. A shape is better drawn than described in text.
> Data structures are shapes. A shape is better drawn than described in text.
Draw me a linked list. Tell me how much faster it is than typing:
Even on a visual keyboard on a tablet, it's faster to type than to draw data structures. A flat sheet of glass maybe gives us the ability to get the (x, y) coordinates of a touched point easier and with more precision, but it sacrifices many other important aspects - like tactile feedback and the ability to feel shapes. With physical keyboard, you're employing more of the features your body and mind has, and that's why it's faster than a touchscreen.Unless you can find a completely different way of designing UX, then a tablet won't be a suitable device for creation. None of the currently existing solutions come close to beating a physical keyboard and a mouse.
I don't normally use linked lists, but here's an array:
"list joe (subtle gesture) mary (subtle gesture) dave end
If I wanted to delete dave from the list I could grab it and slide it away or say "list delete last".
> Tell me how much faster it is than typing
Everyone in the room I'm in now can talk at 200 words per minute and use their hands. Very few of them could type that fast.
How will you go about drawing "joe" and "mary"? Is it faster than typing? Note that you can't always select stuff from dropdowns - you often have to create new symbols and values.
> Everyone in the room I'm in now can naturally talk at 200 words per minute.
How fast they can track back and correct a mistake made three words before? Or take the last sentence and make it a subnode of the one before that? Speech is not flexible enough for the task unless you go full AI and have software that understands what you mean.
> How will you go about drawing "joe" and "mary"?
I'll just say it, it's easier. As I said at the top of the thread, gestures and speech.
> How fast they can track back and correct a mistake made three words before?
I gave an example of opening an existing structure and modifying it in the comment you're replying to.
> Or take the last sentence and make it a subnode of the one before that?
Like in a DOM? Easily: grab it and move it, just like you do it in DevTools today, except with your hands rather than a mouse.
Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant by "subtle gesture" there.
Anyway, in the original comment you said:
> Data structures are shapes. A shape is better drawn than described in text.
I'll grant you that speaking + gestures may not be a bad way of entering and manipulating small data structures and preforming simple operations. But until we have a technology that can recognize speech and gestures reliably and accurately (and tablets with OSes that don't lag and hang up for half a second at random), physical keyboards will still be much faster and much less annoying.
But I still doubt you could extend that to more complex editing and navigating tasks. Take a brief look at the things you can do in Paredit:
http://pub.gajendra.net/src/paredit-refcard.pdf
Consider the last three or four subsections and ask yourself, how to solve them with touch, gestures and speech. Are you going to drag some kind of symbolic representation of "tree node" to move a bunch elements into a sublevel? How about splitting a node into two at a particular point? Joining them together? Repeating this (or a more complex transformation) action 20 times in a row (that's what a decent editor has keyboard macros for)? Searching in code for a particular substring?
Sure, it can be done with the modes of input you're advocating, but I doubt it can be done in an efficient way that would still resemble normal speech and interaction. There are stories on the Internet of blind programmers using Emacs who can achieve comparable speed to sighted ones. This usually involves using voice pitch and style as a modifier, and also using short sounds for more complex operations. Like "ugh" for "function" and "barph" for "public class", etc. So yeah, with enough trickery it can be done. But the question is - unless you can't use the screen and the keyboard, why do it?
> Like in a DOM? Easily: grab it and move it, just like you do it in DevTools today, except with your hands rather than a mouse.
DevTools are a bad example for this task. Using keyboard is much faster and more convenient than mouse. C.f. Paredit.
Totally agreed. Theoretically, you should just be able to gesture a list with your hands and say "joe mary dave" and the software knows from your tone that's three items and not one.
I don't know that much about lisp and s-expressions asides from that it can edit it's own AST. That's not a way of avoiding the question, it's just my own lack of experience.
> Are you going to drag some kind of symbolic representation of "tree node" to move a bunch elements into a sublevel?
Yes, I already think of a tree of blocks/scopes when editing code with a keyboard, visualising that seems reasonable.
> Repeating this (or a more complex transformation) action 20 times in a row (that's what a decent editor has keyboard macros for).
Here's the kind of stuff I use an AST for: finding function declarations and making them function expressions. I imagine that would be (something to switch modes) "find function declarations and make them function expressions". Likewise "rename all instances of 'res' to 'result'" with either tone or placement to indicate the variable names. More complex operations on the doc would be very similar to complex operations in the doc.
> Searching in code for a particular substring?
Easy. Have a gesture or tone that makes 'search' a word for operating on the document, not in it.
> Sure, it can be done with the modes of input you're advocating, but I doubt it can be done in an efficient way that would still resemble normal speech and interaction.
Yep, I don't think it would still resemble normal speech and interaction either, the same way reading code aloud doesn't. It would however be easier to learn, removing the need to type efficiently as well as the (somewhat orthogonal) current unnecessary ability to create syntax errors.
> DevTools are a bad example for this task. Using keyboard is much faster and more convenient than mouse. C.f. Paredit.
Not sure if I'm reading you correctly here: typing DOM methods in a keyboard in devtools is obviously slower than a single drag and drop operation. Using hands to do it directly is obviously even faster with the mouse.
Stepping back a little: I guess some people assume speech and gestures won't get significantly better, I assume they will.
favouritePeople is Person list, name Joe age 32, Mary 23, Steve 64, end
Using tone to separate entries, but you could use a secondary gesture for that instead. Also some pattern matching.
One other advantage of directly manipulating AST - it's very easily converted into any language runtime you want. It won't matter if you are targeting the JVM, V8 or native bytecode; you can do it all from the same AST. This same thing is possible with plain text code, but not quite as common.
I think there are ports of paredit-like features to those languages in Emacs too, and all the other semantic features of Emacs itself work with those. As long as the language's major mode properly defines what is e.g. a function, a symbol, etc. you can use semantic navigation and editing.
> One other advantage of directly manipulating AST - it's very easily converted into any language runtime you want. It won't matter if you are targeting the JVM, V8 or native bytecode; you can do it all from the same AST. This same thing is possible with plain text code, but not quite as common.
I don't think this is something that AST gives you. AST is just a more machine-friendly representation of what you typed in the source code. Portability between different platforms depend on what bytecode/machine code gets generated from that AST. And since AST is generated from the compiled source anyway as one of the first steps in compilation, getting it to emit a right set of platform-specific instructions means you can compile the original source there too.
And AST doesn't solve the problem of calling platform-specific functions and libraries anyway.
Unless AI advances considerably. For years I've imagined myself talking to the small specialized AI living in my computer, giving it instructions that it would translate to code...
Writing software is about telling a blazingly fast, literal, moron what to do. The ambiguity inherent in natural language is not a good way of telling such a thing what to do.
I think I have discovered the source of your disagreement.
I doubt it. Perhaps we'll be making ASTs by writing (i.e. drawing symbols with styli or pens), but I don't think we'll be doing it via gestures and speech. There's a reason that we don't teach math via interpretive dance.
Edit: And easier to search, remember, read again and the less nice variant of that; 'you never said that to me' 'I did: ' copy/paste.
Recorded speech is also searchable so not sure that's relevant.
It is ; recorded speech is not very searchable, especially if you are talking in a group in a conference where people can be from different countries with different dialects (which is the normal situation for our group talks). Also it is not convenient and sometimes not possible to record every (conference) meeting (too much noise etc). With text it's automatically recorded and perfectly searchable...
Also some of my colleagues are not good at English listening but are very good technically; if I type what I mean they understand while if I/we tell them, everything has to be translated and/or repeated many times.
I think the tech is not there yet to say it's not relevant.
Regarding being easier to search and read it again, it seems like there are potential technical solutions to that problem, but I would agree that we're not there yet.
A more specialized scenario: I was copy/pasting stuff to a colleague in the same room yesterday.
But text is a pretty fine form of communication and I find myself using it very often at work (and at home I often talk this way to people not in the same room, but in the same flat). It's fast, it's convenient, it's less disrupting, and the only reason to avoid it are some silly preconceptions that digital communiction is somehow "worse" than spoken words.
Also, you never passed papers to your friends while in school? That's pre-smartphone equivalent of IM.
And a lot of music creation apps exist for tablets/phones.
This production/consumption divide is too rigid.
Now don't get me wrong - while I only use the two a little, I think they're fine. It's communication, an important part of human experience. But, at least in my mind, Instagram and Snapchat fall firmly into the same group as browsing Facebook or 9gag, as opposed to e.g. making a let's play video or a comic strip.
Yes, there are ways to take photos and create music on tablets and phones. You can do some basic editing on them, even. But the "professional" tools for photography and music, with all the bells and whistles you can think of, are still dominated by laptop / desktop computer programs. (The dominant programs being Photoshop for images, and DAWs like Logic, Ableton Live, and Pro Tools for music.)
The distinction between "production" and "consumption" devices is indeed kind of too rigid in a sense that, of course, professionals will utilize the creative tools that come on tablets and phones, even if the desktop / laptop programs are the primary tool. Tablets also can shine as an extended interface for desktop programs. (EG: Logic Pro (and others) have apps that turns an iPad into a remote controller for the main DAW. There are programs like Astropad that turn your iPad into a Wacom-like tablet for Photoshop, etc.)
The obstacle is interface. The fine-tuned control of a tablet or (especially) a phone is much poorer than using a mouse and keyboard with a large screen. Until that gets resolved, I doubt desktops / laptops will go anywhere.
No. Because of the Glorious PC Master Race - mods, trainers, hacks, overlays etc - these all need dev and root access.
Btw- game modding, cracking, save game editing etc - are the best gateway drugs towards full blown IT career.
It seems like a vast majority of software developers, consciously or not, do not wish for software development to improve beyond a certain point as they fear it would become too accessible and therefore lower the value of their skills. The truth is that we actively make programming as difficult as possible, and everybody loses. I can understand that writing code as text would make sense 50 years ago, but there is no excuse for this today.
Consumer UI is now reaching the 3rd dimension with AR and VR, while software development is stuck in the 1st dimension. A long linear piece of string. It is difficult to believe that those who have the power to create great consumer UX are completely blind to improving their own. Software development has some of the worst UX ever.
The solution to all of those issues has been known for a while, and is dead simple to understand. We need to create a new communication platform, powered by ideas from logic programming and the semantic web. Think of it as 2 huge semantic knowledge graphs, the first describing the real state of the world, the second describing the ideal state of the world. Build a UI on top of it (which should feel more like a graph-oriented Excel than RDF/Prolog) to let people, agents and IoT devices communicate "what is" and "what should be". Then, all it takes is an inference algorithm that can match providers with seekers, get them to commit to some set of world changes (through some sort of contract), and let people manage and track the commitments/tasks they're expected to get done. That's it, that replaces 80% of software needs. Thank you very much.
Knowledge Graph -> Semantic Marketplace -> Smart Contracts -> Task Management
Perhaps I should take this opportunity to make that happen.
Hell, even lack of window management in iOS/Android systems is making UX much more easier to understand for majority of users I know. My granddad, who was an excellent mechanical engineer, have been using computers for the last 20 years, and he still struggles with click/double-click distinction.
Only if you want to keep them illiterate, which companies are more than happy to do since it means they can be more easily persuaded and dependent consumers.
Somehow nobody complains that cars, or microwave ovens are too complicated. Everybody knows they have to learn how to use them - either through a training course or just by reading a manual.
Are my parents or family interested in password managers ? Heck no... why should they, because the browser will remember stuff for them.
Permissions ? You have to be joking... they want to read their email or draw a picture.
Computers are there to make life easy - they're convenience tools (for the mass market). If people have to understand them more than switch them on a press a few buttons, they've failed.
It's not the IT world... for years, we were outcast as geeks and nerds (they were insults in the past). It's that the average person doesn't want (or need) to know about this.
How many people service their own car ?
True, but there is still some learning to do. The only way you can reduce it (barring solving general AI and making a system that actually knows what you mean) is by reducing the things a device/piece of software can do. That's what the industry is doing - cutting out features, turning software into shiny toys. Because from the market perspective, is enough that the people sign up / buy the product - it doesn't have to be actually useful.
That's why software for professionals look complicated - because there the company actually has to make a useful tool. This state of thing is sadly a big loss for humanity - if the only way to make stuff "sexy" is to make it barely useful, then the general population is in fact missing out on all the amazing things technology could allow.
(And the tech people are missing out too, because they're too small a niche. It's more profitable to target the masses instead. That's why all mobile devices are getting dumber.)
> It's not the IT world... for years, we were outcast as geeks and nerds (they were insults in the past). It's that the average person doesn't want (or need) to know about this.
Oh but it is the IT world. We've been invaded by the "normal people" and we've lost the battle. Most programmers employed nowadays are not much different from your average non-tech person, and have nowhere near the technical expertise you'd associate with the "geek and nerds" of the past.
> How many people service their own car ?
I'm not talking about servicing, but about driving. You have to spent 30+ hours in training to be allowed to drive on a public road. Nobody complains because people understand that to use the car well, you have to learn how to do it.
If I had to read a manual to operate my microwave, toaster, coffee machine, sandwich maker, oven, games console, etc etc, I'd just get rid of them.
I say class, because most tosters work the same, most microwaves work the same, most smartphones work the same and most 3D modelling programs work the same too. But you have to get that first little bit of knowledge about the class of tools from somewhere, even if from your own experimentation. Humans aren't born with knowledge how to use technology.
You sound like a guy who teaches his kid to swim by throwing him in the stormy sea.
I don't think anyone ever has.
Have you tried teaching him that? I highly doubt an old person, especially one with engineering background, will have trouble with understanding the distinction if someone bothers explaining it to them.
Or in general - it's surprising how much non-tech people can understand about technology if someone bothers to sit down with them and explain the concepts to them. Usually the reason they don't learn this stuff themselves is the typical human impulse of "if I haven't figured it out in 3 seconds flat, it's too difficult and I won't understand it".
So here's just a few ways you can code on Android:
QPython: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hipipal.qp...
AIDE (Java): https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aide.ui&hl...
Terminal IDE: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.spartacusr...
If all else fails, just deploy debian with Linux Deploy: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=ru.meefik.linu...
If desktops become more expensive, it'll just mean people are more motivated to make tools like this. Android phones and tablets are basically treated as cheap commodities and there's an extremely competitive market for them, if anything, the entry price has gone down.
Now, admittedly I'm not sure how this situation is on iOS, but maybe someone could link similar tools on there?
For one thing, a Raspberry Pi is more powerful than the Sinclair ZX-81, Apple IIe, or Atari 400/800 I had access to back then, and much cheaper.
(1) https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/tools/v...
New-Alias -Name "du" -Value "Directory-Summary"
For du:
For df:They have neglected the CLI for years and powershell while I guess it has its uses for scripting is light years behind *nix stuff as an interactive shell.
You can -accepteula from the command line and the "installation" is downloading and extracting a zip file. If there's an internet connection, you could even run it straight off of Micrsoft's servers via SMB.
If you like Ubuntu/Linux more, then just install Ubuntu/Linux on the computer without Windows. Why go through the additional layer of Windows?
Perhaps the use case is limited to people who need to run Windows/Mac-only software like AutoCAD or some Adobe software.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=869249
This is exactly the type of thing that many people want.
I used KDE 3 and Gnome 2 for many years (Windows also). and switched to LXDE/OpenBox after KDE 4 and Gnome 3 turned out to be unusable.
Although my current desktop is very simple it has become one of my best desktops ever because it can be configured to the extreme. It is very suitable for developers who want a clean workspace which doesn't get in their way like all the other modern desktops (Win 8+ also) which focus more on eye candy than usability.
Or many, many games.
No, it's an incredible pain in the ass to get this working properly, when I could spend 20 seconds rebooting
It's might be hard to setup few years ago, but now it's super easy. With AMD hardware everything just work out-of-box.
Having people in the company run different OSes cost a lot of money because of the duplicate tools that has to be adapted or created for different OSes.
For this project, I could choose the programming environment. Well, my tool of choice, for the past 10 years, has been Rails. I prototyped the application on my MBP within 10 hours, but needed to be able to work on the site with my corporate laptop, so I setup a Linux VM, and setup 2 networks (one host-only to share files, and one NAT'd to get through the corporate firewall), configured the folder shares, and got everything going the "VirtualBox" way. It's a pain.
Like a lot of Fortune 500's, the IT resources are locked down to the point of being combative. There's no way I can take my MBP to the office and work on the company LAN. (You can get an exception, but you have to ask for special permission every single day.) This project SUPPOSES to allow me to open a shell, install RVM, install Ruby and git, download my sources, bundle install, and do `rails -s` to do development. (The application is just using sqlite for the database, so I don't even need to mess with MySQL for now.) If everything works like it should, I can just use Sublime Text 3 as my editor to work on the files, and host on the Linux subsystem. When it's time, I can `git push` my sources to the TFS server, and deploy them on the Linux VM running in Azure.
So that was kind of long, but this is how I see it working and fitting into my world. Against my better judgement, I'm letting my gaming rig (re)upgrade to 10 to try this out. I don't know when my company's IT department will standardize on Windows 10; we just got 8 last year. I just want to see if this can really fill the niche it supposes.
What's illustrative for the dominance of *NIXes in development are the number of projects on Github that contain only +NIX installation instructions and no Windows instructions (again, anecdata).
So if Windows wants to remain competitive, they need to retain developers. And as the +nix way of developing seems to be dominant now in quite a number of fields, Microsoft needs to adapt.
Why, you're asking, do I think that the +NIX way of development is dominant today? In a nutshell, Web -> Unix Servers -> POSIX shells -> Languages that work best with POSIX -> OSs that are POSIX-compliant.
Edit: Asterisks don't work as expected here. At least not in a Markdown-compatible way.
The ability to do 'curl some-site.com | bash' or ssh <hostname> 'curl some-site.com | bash' without having to worry about platform compatibility would be amazing.
There's little practical distinction between piping a shell script from a random site or downloading a binary from it.
Installing a package manually vetted by distribution maintainers, signed and verified with GPG, is the same as blindly running a random script off the internet?
I don't think you appreciate how much effort Linux distributions invested into creating safe ways of distributing software.
`/usr/bin/ruby -e "$(curl -fsSL https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Homebrew/install/master/in...
https://rvm.io/rvm/install
`\curl -sSL https://get.rvm.io | bash`
https://www.npmjs.com/package/nodejs-oneline/tutorial
`curl -sL https://deb.nodesource.com/setup | sudo -E bash -z`
It is a trend. I can find more examples, the above is just places I remember seeing this behaviour.
Microsoft went to great lengths to disallow these kind of one-liners in PowerShell (you need to explicitly add -executionpolicy bypass to even run a script), so apparently they are concerned about users executing random scripts off the net.
OTOH, yes, being able to assume bash on a user's installation would be amazing of course...
Yes and I fucking hate it, way to cut of useful functionality at the knees.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT
It's heavily marketed as "bash on Windows", and that "bash" is a GNU Bourne Again Shell, a part of GNU Operating System, developed under GNU Project.
Please invest some time to understand what it's about technically.
However, please notice that it's also marketed as - quoting the article - "the ability to run native Bash and GNU/Linux command-line tools [on Windows]" and currently implemented as GNU-based OS (Ubuntu) running on Windows. So - in practice - essentially, it's MS-supported (although hosted by Canonical) GNU on Windows.
I don't care how it's marketed.
Let me remind you that there have been numerous ports of GNU tools for the Windows operating system in the past. This does not allow you to run any more GNU tools on Windows than you previously had.
Therefore, essentially, this is not about "GNU on Windows". This is about running "Ubuntu Linux software on Windows" including, of course, and in addition to numerous other tools, the GNU tools.
Also, the original statement was: "That is just GNU running on the Windows kernel." This is obviously not just that.