This is SpaceX's first ISS cargo mission since their last attempt last summer, which ended in an explosion and loss of all cargo. They will also be attempting a barge landing of the first stage, which they have not yet successfully completed. They will likely stream the landing attempt, but live video is no guarantee as there is usually too much interference.
Not sure what to make of the chanting of 'U-S-A U-S-A' after that. That sound just reminds me of a Trump rally these days.
But otherwise: that was really fantastic.
Edit:
It's actually quite a sweet display of patriotism. I sound more negative than I mean to be. Perhaps it was just funny to realize that the context I'm most familiar with the sound of that chant is from reporting on the current campaign.
Patriotism is also offensive if, when politely questioned, it leads to knee-jerk reactions. It has the potential to become just another source of unnecessary emotional conflict and short-circuited thinking.
Since when did being patriotic become offensive behavior? I for one am proud of the accomplishment and realize that it took many people from lots of different countries, but the reality is SpaceX, Tesla, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter the list goes on are all American companies. American and proud.
> it took many people from lots of different countries
In a indirect way it did, (standing on the shoulders of giants, heritage of the people working there, etc,) however, unlike the other companies you mentioned, SpaceX only hires American citizens (because of government contracts and ITAR.) So it's basically an all-American effort.
His maternal grandfather is American and he took the citizenship oath in 2002 -- Which is why America is pretty cool, many millions of Americans have foreign accents!
I'm pretty sure Elon considers himself thoroughly American at this point.
There are quite a few foreign born American citizens working at SpaceX, myself included. You may find this shocking, but seeing as English wasn't our first language, some of us even have foreign accents.
I don't consider them, or myself, any less American.
You jest, but being an immigrant is a very American thing. Visit it sometime if you had not, it's quite a different place from what many people imagine from media dramatizations.
Not only greencard holders but ITAR even has exemptions for non-US persons, that is those who aren't US citizens or Permanent Residents.
I don't work directly with anyone like this but I know SpaceX has a few, not sure of the exact number, employees who are neither citizens nor permanent residents.
From what I've heard the process of getting a non-US person ITAR cleared is extremely costly, both in time and money and is thus used very sparingly.
It's not that offensive, but it did have a bit of a jarring effect. I was all happy with the success and saw it as a human achievement. [1] The cheering was wonderful. But then the USA chants made me feel left out, because I'm not a US citizen. I guess I just wished these people would share my view of it being a human achievement and not limited to USA with its 4% of humans. It's likely plenty of them do think that, but the USA chanting sure sends a different emotional signal and diminishes the moment a bit.
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[1] I probably wouldn't think much of a USA chant during a Facebook or Google product launch. While these companies do plenty of wonderful things, I view space travel as several tiers of importance higher.
It's a US achievement and it's an achievement that will benefit all of humanity. There's no contradiction between those two things.
America gets bashed non-stop about pretty much everything, no matter what choices it makes or what direction it goes. The criticism is overwhelming sometimes, I get sick of browsing many sites like Reddit for example because of the extremely common US bashing. Quite frankly, I'll take the cheers and USA chants on this one.
I'm not American and I think it's great. Anytime I read stories of American engineering (like about the SR-71, or the Manhattan Project[1]) I feel a kind of pride for them. Strange feeling. But they accomplish some amazing stuff and there's no reason they shouldn't express joy for their own country.
It's probably a cultural thing. From my vantage point outside of America, chanting support for your country like a sports team feels awkward and myopic. It's not something most other civilised countries do — I associate it more readily with failed/fascist/dictatorial regimes.
I think it is a cultural thing, but thinking about it now it would sound really similar to how you describe if they were chanting "America" instead of "USA".
I don't know, but the point is that I can see where you are coming from. I think that the "USA" thing has become "normalized" to me because of other things in the media (sports, wartime, etc...) that it doesn't phase me, but changing the wording makes it pretty clear.
> Since when did being patriotic become offensive behavior?
Patriotism can have a hugely different emotional response depending on where you live. It can connote “home!” or “remember, we have weaponized drones hovering above your head”.
Imagine this video feed was from Iran, and ended in a patriotic arabic chant. Would you think, “it is good to see that they are Iranian and proud”?
It is not about being offended. It is about political undertone and tacit military implications.
(That said, I am proud, as a fellow human, of what was accomplished. Also, I live in a country pretty solidly allied with the US.)
Now this is just my opinion, but I wouldn't see any of that if any country was chanting their name for an accomplishment like this.
This is almost a universally good thing, and having pride that your country was able to do it isn't a bad thing to me! I would fully expect another nations company to be chanting their nation's name, and I would probably join along with them if I were there!
It's a celebration, not a contest.
(side note, I was born and raised in the US, so my view might be tainted by that)
I second this. Even if Iran, N Korea, China e.t.c were doing this I'd be very happy for them. Space missiles and nuclear missiles have things common to them, but if the only intention of the folks working on it was to make space exploration cheaper, I'd cheer for them.
What space X did landing in the middle of the ocean on a tiny little platform, was nothing short of genius.
After a decade and a half of wars and general malaise at home, this kind of thing reminds me that we're still moving forward as a country and a society and that we still have the capacity do really hard things. I'm so proud of the SpaceX team for representing America like that.
That was also a bit irritating for me. I am from Germany and celebrating Germany became a bit frowned upon for obvious reasons. Besides during the World Cup, of course. Nonetheless it seems a bit strange to me, the country has really not too much to do with this success notwithstanding that, to some extend, it provided the environment that enabled this success. Shouting »SpaceX!« would seem more appropriate to me but probably still feel a bit strange. And last but not least the first thing that I associated with this were the celebrations after the death of Osama bin Laden which I think were pretty inappropriate.
I don't understand this German mentality (my heritage is German). It is like German's are ashamed to be German. WWII was a long time ago, it is ok to be patriotic and proud of your collective country.
I came across the slogan »Proud not to be proud.« recently and really like it. I really like Germany and am glad that I can live here. But for me being proud has a lot to do with personally having done something for the thing to be proud of. I have zero stakes in the beautiful landscape, my influence on the society, economy and whatnot is negligible. Why would I be proud of the country? I also think that nation states are probably not the best way forward but that will take us to far now.
Pride in personal achievements has a catch: it's only available to those who actually did achieve something. Those who did not still have a desire for pride and "group pride" (be it national, ethnic, religious, supportership of some sports team or even just membership in some specific profession) fills that gap.
As much as i despise patriotic displays, i still think they can offer great value as a lesser evil when even more dangerous group pride identities (e.g. religious or ethnic radicalization) are just waiting to fill the gap for those in need. Not only the american, but also the french or british group identities are much more accessible than for example german (much of national identity defined by difficult relationship with history, newcomers don't share that heritage) or belgian (much of national identity defined by being of either flemish or wallonian ethnicity, newcomers are neither).
Patriotic displays were one of the major tools that enabled WW2. Maybe not as a cause, but certainly as an absolutely required component.
We frown upon these things not because of what happened, we frown upon them because of what we don't want to happen again. The past might be long gone, but the future is always right around the corner.
So is this: now make a list of all the other meaningful space programs and their budgets, it's a really short list. ESA is soon going to have a mere 1/4 the budget of NASA. The rest of the world outside of Russia and China should really be stepping up their space game.
Yeah, really. Has a single one of them launched a rocket and then successfully landed it? No. That's why you're here, talking about Space X and AMERICA.
That's the entire point of this part of the discussion, there are people that think it is awesome that the people at SpaceX managed to achieve this but they really don't care that it is an American company. I wouldn't be any prouder or whatnot if it were a German company.
The US doesn't have the tense history with Nationalism that Germany does. Chanting USA is rather common at national sporting events, in times of triumph and often whenever someone starts the chant.
I can understand the distaste for nationalistic displays in Germany and I think it says a lot for the German people that this is considered distasteful.
This is a peacetime effort that is likely to improve all of mankind. If you want to criticize the celebratory reaction to killing someone then I will probably agree with you. This is something else. Pride in one's nation and it's achievements is not inherently shameful.
Do you believe that nationalistic displays are never appropriate? Why is it ok to celebrate your nation during World Cup but not after a significant technological achievement in peacetime?
I am not going to tell you what to do and what not do, I meant what I wrote quite literally, I felt irritated by those chants because that would never happen here and probably be considered inappropriate. I really can't think of many things that could, would or should cause a similar reaction over here. If half of Germany would work together to single-handedly stop the climate change or something like that, then I would say it is time to pad our shoulders, but besides that I can't think of much. And even if we shout »Germany!« when we win a soccer match, we - or at least that is the case for me - mean the team, not the country as a whole.
It's not just Germany by the way. I think this applies in most of Europe where patriotism is closely linked with nationalism because of our history. For example, in the UK showing an English flag is immediately associated with the BNP. In Holland displaying the flag outside of national holidays is associated with far-right wing parties as well. Of course none of this applies when it comes to international football matches.
At the same time I think most Europeans realize this doesn't apply in the US, yet many people's initial reaction would be one of (mild) discomfort. As a European living in the US (and loving the country and the people) I'm still often equal parts amazed and amused by the flag waving and USA chanting.
That's one of the saddest things I've read, that displaying your own flag is looked down upon. I cannot imagine any long-term good coming from that kind of attitude.
As the hencq said, most if not all European nations had their share of bad times due to nationalism and in consequence the idea of nations got deemphasized. That is the origin of the European Union, together instead of against each other. This admittedly works much better in good times and a we against the rest mentality quickly springs back when the outlook worsens.
For many Europeans the American attitude towards the country and the flag looks a bit like a fetish. It's a piece of the Earth within a man-made line on a map, a piece of fabric designed by some guys. The important things are of course what this symbols stand for, freedom, the American dream, going to the Moon, helping to end World War II. But then again this is also only half of the truth or do you also think of slavery, racism or the millions of victims in US (supported) wars when you look at an US flag?
Similarly the obsession with the constitution looks a bit strange from here. »I can have guns, it's good to have guns, it's in the constitution!« It is just a piece of paper, a set of laws. Some guys thought that those would make good rules to run a society and so they wrote them down. But maybe they were wrong in some regards, a constitution is no eternal God-given truth.
It really makes a difference where you grow up and to what ideas you are exposed. For the better or the worse.
So then make Europe the country and Germany the state. That works. Wave the European flag and chant: Europe! Europe! Europe!
Here in the USA we seldom wave state flags or chant the names of states. Maybe in Texas I could see that happening. I do recommend being the Texas of Europe.
That was also a bit irritating for me. I am from Germany and celebrating Germany became a bit frowned upon for obvious reasons. Besides during the World Cup, of course.
My first thought is, then what if people around the world started to care about spaceflight to the same degree they pay attention to the World Cup? But considering the broad geopolitical implications tied up in spaceflight and ballistic missile technology, this does become weird and problematic in just a few steps, doesn't it? Hopefully, from here on out, all of the jingoism will just be noise, and all of the major wars will be, at worst, cold.
>the celebrations after the death of Osama bin Laden which I think were pretty inappropriate.
Osama Bin Laden doesn't deserve any civil person's remorse. He helped orchestrate the murder of 3000 civilians. Give no pause to people who have absolutely no respect for the civilized world and cannot be reasoned with. The world will not have peace as long as religious extremists exist. Osama Bin Laden's existence would have only brought more senseless violence.
Fly a German flag from a pole in your front yard. Really! People here in the USA do it sometimes. (or go European, or both if you want to treat Germany like Americans treat states)
Find something good in the news and celebrate it. I checked the news today. OK, maybe today isn't a great day for Germany, because the best I found was this:
http://www.thelocal.de/20160309/firemen-free-mens-penis-from...
Uh, well, it's something. Celebrate it. Germany! Germany! Germany!
Be sure to also check the French and Russian news in case a bit of Schadenfreude is called for. When you find something suitable, wave your flag and say: Germany! Germany! Germany!
I'm Australian but FWIW some friends and I were talking about this over breakfast. I personally think that while it's a bit jarring from the outside, Americans celebrating the rebuilding of American spaceflight capabilities makes a lot of sense.
Also, it would probably be worse to have official communication policy restricting what people could chant on livestreams.
I think this is a large part of it. The Apollo program, and to a lesser extent the Space Shuttles, are not just historical events, but events that had a major cultural impact on the country. You cannot divorce the nationalistic response of people involved in this endeavor from the connection America's space program has to historical achievements we celebrate throughout our history classes in school. The successes of the spaceflight industry were always, from the beginning, tied to a sense of nationalism given the context in which it arose and delivered success. It's a unique industry in American culture, and I'm not surprised it's hard for individuals from other countries to immediately understand.
A similar thing happened at every Space Shuttle launch I was lucky enough to go to. I wouldn't read too much into it. A few people get really excited and proud to be American when they see a display of some impressive literally-earth-shaking technology (the noise from a shuttle launch was amazing!). They start chanting it and the rest of the crowd joins in. It's a nice moment of unity even if it is within the confines of national identity.
I would be hesitant to make assumptions on how SpaceX employees feel about this accomplishment as it relates to human advancement based on a simple three letter chant that is quite common in the US.
I can certainly understand how those from other countries, particularly Europe, might view the USA chants as over the top nationalism, but I think it's a stretch to assume that those taking part in it somehow view today’s accomplishments as solely the purview of Americans.
I was born in Eastern Europe and while I immigrated to the US at an early age, I have at times felt uncomfortable by the more visible aspects of American patriotism. Since it was brought up in a post above, I found the widespread celebrations of UBL’s death to be distasteful and jingoistic, and this is coming from someone who has deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq multiple times. I too feel that it can, in certain contexts, come off as overly nationalistic. Context is, as usual, important though, and in this context I view the SpaceX USA chants as pretty harmless.
I also find the insinuation that the employees taking part in these chants are guilty of nationalistic fervor to be insulting. There are many employees here, myself included, who didn’t have the good grace to be born in the US but have nonetheless adopted America as our homes and are now allowed to work on some of the coolest space launch vehicles in existence. The fact that some might express themselves in this manner doesn’t bother me, even if it isn’t something I would do myself. I for one don’t partake in the USA chants, although this arguably has as much to do with my relatively low key personality as it does with a conscious choice to refrain from outward shows of patriotism. I’m the kind of person that would politely clap at a touchdown or slam dunk rather than yell and cheer. One of my supervisors however, a Canadian citizen and US permanent resident, has a much more boisterous personality than I do and always joins in these chants. I know one or two Brits here who do as well.
It’s also important to understand the atmosphere during these launches. SpaceX isn’t exactly the easiest place to work, I just finished a 58 hour work week ending in a 12 hour shift before launch, I was not alone in this regard. People are tired, stressed, and somewhat on edge. While the live feed featuring the employees may look staged or choreographed, I can assure you that their reactions aren’t. The moments after a successful launch are an incredible relief and you can feel the energy in the building. The excitement is infectious and if that boils over into chants of U-S-A then so be it.
I’m also not sure what could be done to prevent this from happening. Again, those from other countries might view these chants as strange, but they really are very innocuous here in the US. I don’t see it as overly nationalistic, but again, context is key. Even as someone who doesn’t actively take part in them, if we got word from above that these chants were no longer allowed or discouraged, I would be extraordinarily pissed. Employees are already sacrificing a lot for this mission, they don’t need their spontaneous celebrations micromanaged.
SpaceX is an American company, located within the borders of the US, staffed largely by US citizens or permanent residents, funded largely(exclusively?) by US taxpayers, investors and companies, relying primarily on a US educated workforce, and 60 years of American led R&D in space technology. If all of that culminates in a successful launch and first stage recovery on a freakin’ ship in the middle of the ocean, I for one, can certainly excuse the USA chants.
I hope that my post doesn't come across as overly defensive or sensitive, it has been a long week and I certainly may be guilty of being overly emotional, but it’s always somewhat disheartening to see a thread relating to a successful SpaceX mission turn into an admonishment of perceived American nationalism.
I would imagine many of the employees come from the aerospace industry, meaning defense contractors. South of LA down to Orange County is a bit of a red patch in a blue state. Just an observation.
My interpretation of the "USA-USA" chanting was is relation to the decreasing funding for NASA[1] and the fact that many recent missions to the ISS have been launched from Baikonur in Russia[2]. I hear the "USA-USA" chanting as in we're back in the game (and we can reuse our stage 1s!).
It was a surprising thing to do. Unexpected and kind of funny. Reminded me of Taiwan #1 chant. However, it's not out of place. Considering modern history, if anything, this is where chant like that should happen. Something people of US of A should be proud of. (they made it, they're paying for it!)
Does anyone know if they analyze the wave patterns on the droneship and send that data to the rocket so it can tilt or time its landing to match? Or is it just the current tilt and position that's taken into account? Or is barge tilt even considered?
I never understood all the fuss about the the movement of the barge until I saw this landing. Even after it landed I was nervous it would tip over given the apparent motion of the barge!
It looks really dramatic, but it might not be close to tipping, really.
I'd guess the fuel is very nearly depleted at landing. This would put the center of mass somewhere fairly low on the stage, close to the engines which are dense, heavy things.
This means that the landed stage isn't as susceptible to toppling as it looks. At minimum, it would have to tilt so far that the CoM went beyond the line connecting the ends of two adjacent landing legs and tilt along a radius that crossed the midpoint of that line. Other tilt vectors would require more tilt to overturn the stage, based on CoM & landing leg geometry.
Wind loads could assist a tipover. The stage is ~12 feet diameter, it's really tall, it presents lots of sail area and it's pretty light at landing. Wind force would be a fun estimation to do.
I read somewhere that the droneship and rocket don't communicate at all.
They both have their "plans" on what to do, and the rocket basically is doing everything from what it can "see". There is no back-and-forth communication happening at all.
Not sure if this changed, but at 35m 47s they just show a static shot of the rocket on the drone ship. The 'live' footage of the landing was earlier in the video (27m 20s).
I thought the ipod was far more impressive, and that sticking an antenna and microphone on it was not only obvious, but expected. Unless you're talking about software or cameras or something...
Watching the webcast feels like being at some blockbuster movie premiere. There's a largish crowd following the launch and applauding on every launch stage completion.
Not that it's a bad thing per se, it's rather the opposite, it however, feels quite weird and staged as opposed to launches done by ESA, Roscosmos or even NASA.
ESA and Roscosmos launches are fairly sedate (almost fell asleep watching an Ariane 5 launch), but since the beginning launches managed by NASA have been pretty heavy with theatrics. Someone else mentioned JPL/Curiosity, which is one good example. Let's also not forget the massive cheering crowds at every Shuttle launch: https://youtu.be/OnoNITE-CLc?t=1m24s
The SpaceX hype is just a logical continuation of that, IMO.
Wifey not into space tech, but when I explained what this meant, she was like "Wow! I didn't think that it would be even possible to have a stick rocket go up, turn around and land on a little pad in the ocean". That's crazy.
Engineers are waiting on a vessel a safe distance away in case the landing doesn't go well. Then they go in and weld the feet once the rocket has vented the leftover LOX (Liquid Oxygen). I think they are also attaching guide wires to the top, but i can't confirm that.
No. They really don't need anything that instantaneous. The center of gravity of the rocket is _very_ low. The rocket is basically a bunch of really heavy engines and a couple thin walled propellant tanks. Those tanks are very close to empty at this point (the heavier propellant, kerosene, is in the lower tank).
It's quite stable. The welded shoes are just a 'belt and suspenders' approach.
I don't think there is any clamping mechanism if that's what you're talking about. Apparently they rely on the sea being calm enough not to make the rocket tilt over. Also remember that the tanks are mostly empty so the center of gravity is fairly low.
They have jacks that attach to the hold-down points; those jacks will probably be welded to the deck. Elon also mentioned the metal shoes over the legs some time ago, and they may also have those, but there's less evidence of those. (You can see the jacks on the deck of the barge in various photos and videos.)
So far they haven't lost any of them because of the size of the ship. People keep saying they should build a bigger or more stable ship, but every loss so far has been because of things like failed landing legs, sticky valves, or insufficient hydraulic fluid.
Couldn't they make the landing pad a bit more forgiving? Like have two big ring-halves pop-up around it when it lands and "catch" it if it tips. I know they'd want to eventually master landing without it, but not having the whole thing explode seems like a good way to quickly run new flights.
No point in spending big on small optimizations like that while they are still working on the part of the process that contains 99% of the difficulty. So far the recovered rocket parts probably have little more value to SpaceX than a very interesting log file. Even if they already send this one up again, it will be more to show off (which is perfectly fine) than for direct monetary reasons.
Once they have an economically meaningful recovery rate, advanced landing pad features might still become a tool to get some margin of error or to reduce the rocket mass overhead necessary for landing. But right now, just tipping over instead of dropping like a meteor (or stopping in mid-air like a cartoon animal, then dropping) is still the goal, not the most pressing danger.
I did a bit of research on that after a comment by Josh here on HN, basically when the first stage isn't pressurized by all of the propellant it is more like an empty beer can. (ok a really really tall beer can :-). Once it is on the barge it has the gas thrusters on top (you can see them in the video) which are well positioned to provide maximum torque to the rest of the structure, but they have limited amounts of reaction mass.
The next step would be some way to secure the booster, post landing, in a structurally supportive way, on the barge. I can't wait to see how they pull that off.
That would be interesting. I was thinking perhaps a set of explosive bolts on the landing legs which punched into the deck once it was stable.
I was also quite pleased that they had solid video of it coming into land with a drone that was hovering off barge. That was a brilliant move on SpaceX's part.
In the new field of vtoL rocketry, you want to have as much of the landing gear as possible on the pad and as little as possible on the rocket. An expensive array of mass produced "autograpples" embedded in the platform would be preferable over any solution that adds mass to the rocket.
You realize the rocket is 15 stories tall and made of aluminum foil under high pressure, right? Any means of "catching" it is indistinguishable from a collision. That's besides the absurd scale and cost of building such a thing.
I would think better than bigger is more stable; instead of a conventional barge, they could use a semi-submersible or some other optimized hull form to ensure a more favorable motion response in a given sea area. I think I remember reading that they use a run-of-the-mill cargo barge, which is probably ideal for logistics compared to a highly specialized vessel.
I'd love to hear from naval archs or hydrodynamicists who are working on this (surely there are some).
When I launched the replay of the live stream at whatever point it was, when I heard the wild cheering I knew they had finally landed a first-stage at sea before I even saw the footage of that supersonic toothpick landing.
Tuned in just in time to see stage 1 sitting happily on the drone ship. Not as much data about what can go wrong, but hey, they got an intact stage 1 back and going over that is going to provide them with mountains of data. Looking forward to more.
That was pretty impressive, and while I love that New Shepard has flown three times, putting something into orbit and having the booster land on a drone ship is pretty freakin' awesome.
For me, the really amazing thing is that if SpaceX has been pricing their launches to cover their costs (and I realize that is a big if), they have been developing the re-usable tech on the back of those flights. And now they have 5 (or 6) test flights where two were successful that is moving that tech forward. Developing it on top of an already profitable space flight business, that is pretty amazing.
Various SpaceX execs have said they need to launch somewhere around 12 rockets/yr to be profitable in the long term (they likely have plenty of cash on hand right now, as most of their contracts pay quite a bit up front, and they have gotten a lot of funding from a couple NASA sponsored development programs).
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[ 2.2 ms ] story [ 290 ms ] threadHere is a link to the technical webcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh8V0COrrzE
This is SpaceX's first ISS cargo mission since their last attempt last summer, which ended in an explosion and loss of all cargo. They will also be attempting a barge landing of the first stage, which they have not yet successfully completed. They will likely stream the landing attempt, but live video is no guarantee as there is usually too much interference.
Also, primary Dragon deployment appears successful as well.
https://youtu.be/7pUAydjne5M?t=35m47s
Absolutely surreal footage, a 25 storey rocket just drifts into shot at a crazy angle and plants itself.
But otherwise: that was really fantastic.
Edit:
It's actually quite a sweet display of patriotism. I sound more negative than I mean to be. Perhaps it was just funny to realize that the context I'm most familiar with the sound of that chant is from reporting on the current campaign.
The chanting seems a bit over the top, especially for a private company mission to serve the International Space Station.
/s
(That doesn't mean it was particularly funny, though)
In a indirect way it did, (standing on the shoulders of giants, heritage of the people working there, etc,) however, unlike the other companies you mentioned, SpaceX only hires American citizens (because of government contracts and ITAR.) So it's basically an all-American effort.
There are quite a few foreign born American citizens working at SpaceX, myself included. You may find this shocking, but seeing as English wasn't our first language, some of us even have foreign accents.
I don't consider them, or myself, any less American.
I don't work directly with anyone like this but I know SpaceX has a few, not sure of the exact number, employees who are neither citizens nor permanent residents.
From what I've heard the process of getting a non-US person ITAR cleared is extremely costly, both in time and money and is thus used very sparingly.
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[1] I probably wouldn't think much of a USA chant during a Facebook or Google product launch. While these companies do plenty of wonderful things, I view space travel as several tiers of importance higher.
America gets bashed non-stop about pretty much everything, no matter what choices it makes or what direction it goes. The criticism is overwhelming sometimes, I get sick of browsing many sites like Reddit for example because of the extremely common US bashing. Quite frankly, I'll take the cheers and USA chants on this one.
1: Granted, that had some key foreign influence.
In this context it didn't phase me at all (I am a US citizen though...), but at a Google press event, it would be really unsettling.
I don't know, but the point is that I can see where you are coming from. I think that the "USA" thing has become "normalized" to me because of other things in the media (sports, wartime, etc...) that it doesn't phase me, but changing the wording makes it pretty clear.
Since the SJWs and identity politics erased all common sense.
Patriotism can have a hugely different emotional response depending on where you live. It can connote “home!” or “remember, we have weaponized drones hovering above your head”.
Imagine this video feed was from Iran, and ended in a patriotic arabic chant. Would you think, “it is good to see that they are Iranian and proud”?
It is not about being offended. It is about political undertone and tacit military implications.
(That said, I am proud, as a fellow human, of what was accomplished. Also, I live in a country pretty solidly allied with the US.)
This is almost a universally good thing, and having pride that your country was able to do it isn't a bad thing to me! I would fully expect another nations company to be chanting their nation's name, and I would probably join along with them if I were there!
It's a celebration, not a contest.
(side note, I was born and raised in the US, so my view might be tainted by that)
What space X did landing in the middle of the ocean on a tiny little platform, was nothing short of genius.
Way to go, anyone at SpaceX who's reading this.
As much as i despise patriotic displays, i still think they can offer great value as a lesser evil when even more dangerous group pride identities (e.g. religious or ethnic radicalization) are just waiting to fill the gap for those in need. Not only the american, but also the french or british group identities are much more accessible than for example german (much of national identity defined by difficult relationship with history, newcomers don't share that heritage) or belgian (much of national identity defined by being of either flemish or wallonian ethnicity, newcomers are neither).
We frown upon these things not because of what happened, we frown upon them because of what we don't want to happen again. The past might be long gone, but the future is always right around the corner.
Yes, it does. The country has a lot to do with it. Particularly our values, culture, etc. that enabled this to be possible here and nowhere else.
So is this: now make a list of all the other meaningful space programs and their budgets, it's a really short list. ESA is soon going to have a mere 1/4 the budget of NASA. The rest of the world outside of Russia and China should really be stepping up their space game.
- Arianespace
- Mitsubishi Heavy Industries
- Antrix Corporation
- COSMOS international
- Eurockot Launch Services
- International Launch Services
- ISC Kosmotras
- Sea Launch
- Starsem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launch_service_provider
Yeah, really. Has a single one of them launched a rocket and then successfully landed it? No. That's why you're here, talking about Space X and AMERICA.
Not yet anyway.
This is a peacetime effort that is likely to improve all of mankind. If you want to criticize the celebratory reaction to killing someone then I will probably agree with you. This is something else. Pride in one's nation and it's achievements is not inherently shameful.
Do you believe that nationalistic displays are never appropriate? Why is it ok to celebrate your nation during World Cup but not after a significant technological achievement in peacetime?
At the same time I think most Europeans realize this doesn't apply in the US, yet many people's initial reaction would be one of (mild) discomfort. As a European living in the US (and loving the country and the people) I'm still often equal parts amazed and amused by the flag waving and USA chanting.
For many Europeans the American attitude towards the country and the flag looks a bit like a fetish. It's a piece of the Earth within a man-made line on a map, a piece of fabric designed by some guys. The important things are of course what this symbols stand for, freedom, the American dream, going to the Moon, helping to end World War II. But then again this is also only half of the truth or do you also think of slavery, racism or the millions of victims in US (supported) wars when you look at an US flag?
Similarly the obsession with the constitution looks a bit strange from here. »I can have guns, it's good to have guns, it's in the constitution!« It is just a piece of paper, a set of laws. Some guys thought that those would make good rules to run a society and so they wrote them down. But maybe they were wrong in some regards, a constitution is no eternal God-given truth.
It really makes a difference where you grow up and to what ideas you are exposed. For the better or the worse.
Here in the USA we seldom wave state flags or chant the names of states. Maybe in Texas I could see that happening. I do recommend being the Texas of Europe.
That tends to be the opposite goal of those nationalistic flag-wavers.
My first thought is, then what if people around the world started to care about spaceflight to the same degree they pay attention to the World Cup? But considering the broad geopolitical implications tied up in spaceflight and ballistic missile technology, this does become weird and problematic in just a few steps, doesn't it? Hopefully, from here on out, all of the jingoism will just be noise, and all of the major wars will be, at worst, cold.
Osama Bin Laden doesn't deserve any civil person's remorse. He helped orchestrate the murder of 3000 civilians. Give no pause to people who have absolutely no respect for the civilized world and cannot be reasoned with. The world will not have peace as long as religious extremists exist. Osama Bin Laden's existence would have only brought more senseless violence.
Fly a German flag from a pole in your front yard. Really! People here in the USA do it sometimes. (or go European, or both if you want to treat Germany like Americans treat states)
Find something good in the news and celebrate it. I checked the news today. OK, maybe today isn't a great day for Germany, because the best I found was this: http://www.thelocal.de/20160309/firemen-free-mens-penis-from... Uh, well, it's something. Celebrate it. Germany! Germany! Germany!
Be sure to also check the French and Russian news in case a bit of Schadenfreude is called for. When you find something suitable, wave your flag and say: Germany! Germany! Germany!
Also, it would probably be worse to have official communication policy restricting what people could chant on livestreams.
Maybe we should get one, but for now, that's it.
This makes me always see the advancement of SpaceX advancement of humanity, not just a single country.
But judging from the U-S-A chanting, not everyone at SpaceX thinks this way.
I'm pretty unpatriotic, but I still recognize that people can be patriotic and aim for the advancement of all humanity.
I can certainly understand how those from other countries, particularly Europe, might view the USA chants as over the top nationalism, but I think it's a stretch to assume that those taking part in it somehow view today’s accomplishments as solely the purview of Americans.
I was born in Eastern Europe and while I immigrated to the US at an early age, I have at times felt uncomfortable by the more visible aspects of American patriotism. Since it was brought up in a post above, I found the widespread celebrations of UBL’s death to be distasteful and jingoistic, and this is coming from someone who has deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq multiple times. I too feel that it can, in certain contexts, come off as overly nationalistic. Context is, as usual, important though, and in this context I view the SpaceX USA chants as pretty harmless.
I also find the insinuation that the employees taking part in these chants are guilty of nationalistic fervor to be insulting. There are many employees here, myself included, who didn’t have the good grace to be born in the US but have nonetheless adopted America as our homes and are now allowed to work on some of the coolest space launch vehicles in existence. The fact that some might express themselves in this manner doesn’t bother me, even if it isn’t something I would do myself. I for one don’t partake in the USA chants, although this arguably has as much to do with my relatively low key personality as it does with a conscious choice to refrain from outward shows of patriotism. I’m the kind of person that would politely clap at a touchdown or slam dunk rather than yell and cheer. One of my supervisors however, a Canadian citizen and US permanent resident, has a much more boisterous personality than I do and always joins in these chants. I know one or two Brits here who do as well.
It’s also important to understand the atmosphere during these launches. SpaceX isn’t exactly the easiest place to work, I just finished a 58 hour work week ending in a 12 hour shift before launch, I was not alone in this regard. People are tired, stressed, and somewhat on edge. While the live feed featuring the employees may look staged or choreographed, I can assure you that their reactions aren’t. The moments after a successful launch are an incredible relief and you can feel the energy in the building. The excitement is infectious and if that boils over into chants of U-S-A then so be it.
I’m also not sure what could be done to prevent this from happening. Again, those from other countries might view these chants as strange, but they really are very innocuous here in the US. I don’t see it as overly nationalistic, but again, context is key. Even as someone who doesn’t actively take part in them, if we got word from above that these chants were no longer allowed or discouraged, I would be extraordinarily pissed. Employees are already sacrificing a lot for this mission, they don’t need their spontaneous celebrations micromanaged.
SpaceX is an American company, located within the borders of the US, staffed largely by US citizens or permanent residents, funded largely(exclusively?) by US taxpayers, investors and companies, relying primarily on a US educated workforce, and 60 years of American led R&D in space technology. If all of that culminates in a successful launch and first stage recovery on a freakin’ ship in the middle of the ocean, I for one, can certainly excuse the USA chants.
I hope that my post doesn't come across as overly defensive or sensitive, it has been a long week and I certainly may be guilty of being overly emotional, but it’s always somewhat disheartening to see a thread relating to a successful SpaceX mission turn into an admonishment of perceived American nationalism.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA#/media/File:NAS...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baikonur_Cosmodrome
Also, I liked the running commentary between the various reporters. It almost felt like a sporting event.
I'd guess the fuel is very nearly depleted at landing. This would put the center of mass somewhere fairly low on the stage, close to the engines which are dense, heavy things.
This means that the landed stage isn't as susceptible to toppling as it looks. At minimum, it would have to tilt so far that the CoM went beyond the line connecting the ends of two adjacent landing legs and tilt along a radius that crossed the midpoint of that line. Other tilt vectors would require more tilt to overturn the stage, based on CoM & landing leg geometry.
Wind loads could assist a tipover. The stage is ~12 feet diameter, it's really tall, it presents lots of sail area and it's pretty light at landing. Wind force would be a fun estimation to do.
https://youtu.be/sh8V0COrrzE?t=36m56s
They both have their "plans" on what to do, and the rocket basically is doing everything from what it can "see". There is no back-and-forth communication happening at all.
https://youtu.be/7pUAydjne5M?t=27m20s
Awesome to watch.
Very, very inspirational.
http://www.space.com/28445-spacex-elon-musk-drone-ships-name...
The SpaceX hype is just a logical continuation of that, IMO.
It's quite stable. The welded shoes are just a 'belt and suspenders' approach.
Once they have an economically meaningful recovery rate, advanced landing pad features might still become a tool to get some margin of error or to reduce the rocket mass overhead necessary for landing. But right now, just tipping over instead of dropping like a meteor (or stopping in mid-air like a cartoon animal, then dropping) is still the goal, not the most pressing danger.
The next step would be some way to secure the booster, post landing, in a structurally supportive way, on the barge. I can't wait to see how they pull that off.
I was also quite pleased that they had solid video of it coming into land with a drone that was hovering off barge. That was a brilliant move on SpaceX's part.
I'd love to hear from naval archs or hydrodynamicists who are working on this (surely there are some).
When I launched the replay of the live stream at whatever point it was, when I heard the wild cheering I knew they had finally landed a first-stage at sea before I even saw the footage of that supersonic toothpick landing.
For me, the really amazing thing is that if SpaceX has been pricing their launches to cover their costs (and I realize that is a big if), they have been developing the re-usable tech on the back of those flights. And now they have 5 (or 6) test flights where two were successful that is moving that tech forward. Developing it on top of an already profitable space flight business, that is pretty amazing.
Really impressed.
So yes, the launches themselves are profitable.