Tipping is an awful and awkward practice that shouldn't ever be encouraged. I found I was way happier about paying for any kind of service in parts of the world where tipping isn't expected or even frowned on. Pay your employees properly. If you are self employed, roll gratuity into the fee for your service.
This is taking one of the best things about Uber and Uber-like services away. Ignoring the surge pricing BS, I don't have to keep an eye on the meter, I don't have to argue with the driver about the fare, I don't have to worry about the tip, I don't need cash on hand, etc.
This sounds like defeating the whole reason for Uber for many people. I find service like Uber more appealing for no frustrations dealing with cash payment, and also because of general hostility in taxi industry about dealing with credit card payment. (Latter one, you can pay your taxi fare using credit cards, but they are often "discouraged" and some driver even shows clear frustration. Apparently this comes from the fact they don't get paid for it until the following month for any credit card transactions, according to one of the drivers I've talked.)
Previously drivers were not permitted to accept tips and this was mandatory. I dont know if the new tipping arrangement is going to be foisted on the passenger if not I think it is only fair for drivers to be able accept a tip from anyone who generously feels the need to do so
The issue is that tipping culture in the US means that if tipping is accepted, the vast majority of customers will see it as necessary, leading drivers to see it as a usual part of the transaction, leading to customers who don't want to tip being seen as in the wrong. It would probably work better in nearly every other country.
On the other hand, putting on my "caring about people" hat, if Uber can't/won't pay a living wage for a day's worth of work, and keeps cutting its prices which have a direct impact on people's income, bring on the tipping.
if Uber can't/won't pay a living wage for a day's worth of work, and keeps cutting its prices which have a direct impact on people's income, bring on the tipping.
So you can cover the cost of their employees while they intentionally run at negative margins, attempting to eliminate competition so they can later charge you monopolistic pricing?
Well, Uber's not going to go away, the practice of paying workers less than they can live on isn't going to go away under capitalism, and welfare is constantly being eaten away at - the best we can make of it is to make sure people can survive.
Damnit, that's no good news! :/ Uber was my #1 example of how modern companies are trying to kill the culture of tipping and it looks like I will have to look for #2.
Well, sure, but that makes the assumption that other companies will employ them. Uber has the one upside that it'll employ as many people as want to work for them, just not at a sustainable income.
Which would you rather have - some income, or none?
As long as the driver doesn't see the tip until they've dropped off the user and rated them, I don't see it being so much an issue. I've tipped Uber drivers in cash who have been exceptionally good, but I wouldn't do it as a normal thing.
I agree. Tipping is a terrible practice. Also, Uber drivers receive ratings. I can already see that drivers asking for tips would probably get lower ratings. That's not going to end well.
I don't see tipping as universally a terrible practice. Sure, if a driver goes above and beyond in some way, I'll put in a bit extra. But as a routine?
It's not hard for me to see this developing into conversations along the following:
Even worse. Drivers rate passengers. If you don't tip well they could rate you lower which would discourage other drivers from accepting your ride request.
Then it's all out war in the making. Suppose one takes a ride and the driver strikes a conversation about tips and how they're essential and so on. And the passenger doesn't tip. Then the passenger can assume the driver will give him low rating. So in return the passenger will give the driver really low rating.
>Tipping is an awful and awkward practice that shouldn't ever be encouraged.
It seems like there's an easy free-market solution to this.
Since Uber was on the losing side of eliminating tips from a policy standpoint, just let customers en masse accomplish the same goal: Simply add another field to the screen explicitly showing if the driver expects tips or not.
Some example screenshots from Uber showing a driver profile to modify:
* Add a column stating "Tips: Yes/No"
* Add a filter option of "Tips=No" for customers to eliminate drivers who want gratuity
* Rank/bias the list of available drivers such that "Tips=No" are shown first
This concept would be similar to filtering ebay sellers that offer free shipping (aka built into the final selling price) or expect extra shipping charges. Another point of seller differentiation is allowing "returns/refunds" or "all sales final." Instead of ebay dictating a rigid policy, the ebay bidders can use filters to avoid sellers with undesirable attributes.
The Uber drivers would learn very quickly whether "expecting tips" is a smart business strategy to maximize income.
Since Lyft seems to encourage tipping, I'm guessing this is one of the reasons why many consider their platform more "driver friendly." It would be interesting to see what % of passengers tip Lyft drivers. That might be predictive of how Uber passengers would choose the "tipping=No" drivers.
This approach encourages tipping which is exactly what the OP isn't in favour of.
IMO all jobs, cab driving included, should be paid well enough that tipping simply isn't necessary. Companies shouldn't encourage tipping (which is often also tax dodging) just because they don't want to pay their employees enough that tipping isn't required to sustain them.
Having said that, while tipping shouldn't be encouraged if somebody does go above and beyond the call of duty for me I'm going to find a way to reward them. That might be a simple "Thank you so much, that was really nice of you" up to and including paying extra if I can afford to do so and feel it's warranted.
>This approach encourages tipping which is exactly what the OP isn't in favour of.
Yes, I understand that OP and you don't favor tipping but we're already past that point. (The lawsuit was already settled and Uber lost the battle about tipping.)
In other words, we can have 2 types of discussions about this:
#1) a hypothetical clean slate where Uber didn't exist and a lawsuit was not settled. Therefore, we can discuss social idealization of not tipping, etc.
or
#2) the settled lawsuit is a reality and tipping (in some form -- but still possibly optional) is a fait accompli. In light of that, we discuss business responses in terms of practicality, customer filters, UX/UI complexity, etc.
My post was talking about #2.
If the OP's scope of "shouldn't ever be encouraged" includes a total revamp of Uber to remove all text throughout the website and internal documents referring to "tipping", I suppose that may be possible but I don't know how realistic it is. To me, it's just relabeling money that was classified as "tips" as "service fee" or even not label it at all. Money is fungible so there are many ways to game it.
Lastly, I couldn't tell if your assertion of "this approach encourages tipping" meant that it would lead to isolated decisions of tipping or universal tipping. If you meant isolated tipping -- then yes, that would be obvious. However, if "encourage tipping" meant the entire economic ecosystem of Uber drivers converges towards tipping, that's not so obvious to me. Since Lyft has a tipping option, has social pressure caused 99% to 100% of Lyft passengers to always add a tip? (I'm not privy to Lyft's statistics so I don't know the answer to that.)
This all sounds very complicated. A driver has to say they expect maybe some extra money, which then users can filter on with some vague cultural acceptance of the amount to add...
Isn't the simplest "free market" solution to allow drivers to set their own prices? Just give me a price, not a price + "and then maybe some more".
>In any case, they argued that Uber shouldn’t take a cut of the portion of the fare that was classified as a tip.
It getting that "am I the only sane one?" feeling from the fact that this even became a court case. There are arbitrarily many fare breakdowns, all observationally equivalent, into "uncut tip", "driver's cut", and "Uber's" cut. You can equally well say that a $10 fare was:
A) $2 tip, $8 fare that Uber takes a $2 cut from, or
B) No tip, $10 fare that Uber took a $2 cut from.
Either way, the driver gets $8 and Uber gets $2. When you have no choice and Uber never itemizes a tip amount, it's equally right to say that Uber was taking 25% after a mandatory 25% tip (framing A) or that Uber was taking 20% from an untipped amount (framing B) or anything in between.
There is literally no "fact of the matter" as to which portion is a "tip" Uber is taking a cut from, and even if there were, Uber could reframe it in the light of any injunction so that the payment flows and fares are the same.
So people basically went to court over whether eggs must be labeled as "six" or a "half dozen". Wha?
I see tipping as an excuse for an employer to pay lower salaries to it's employees, essentially shifting the burden to the client. It's an uncivilized practice. As someone said previously: "Pay your employees properly!" please.
That depends on what you mean by "great service". As an Australian living in Japan, I was unfamiliar with tipping until a recent trip to the US. And the thing that surprised me even more than the bizarre idea of me having the power to underpay a worker despite them
doing a perfectly good job (that would be illegal in other countries), would be the idea of "great service". Apparently in the US, great service consists of being nagged constantly to remind you that he server exists and needs a tip. Great sevice in Japan however means leave me the fuck alone and let me enjoy my meal in peace.
>Apparently in the US, great service consists of being nagged constantly to remind you that he server exists and needs a tip.
It really doesn't. It means that my water gets refilled, you don't mess up the order, you're there when I have a problem, want to order dessert, want my check, etc. I can't speak for everyone but if I have to eventually ask someone else to find you to get me my check--that's when tips go down, not because you weren't pestering me constantly.
I understand that the evidence indicates otherwise.
For example, http://www.marketwatch.com/story/tipping-doesnt-reward-good-... , which suggests that tipping incentivises (amongst other things) touching the customer, telling them they've make good decisions, and (for female service staff) being physically attractive. The customers are like rats in a Skinner box; you just have to do these few simple little things and they hand over extra money. Service staff who make good tips know this, and eventually it teaches contempt for the customers.
I prefer to get excellent service by being polite and courteous. I hate the idea that people are only entitled to a living wage when they work a service job if they are especially subservient.
This was one of Uber's big advantages over the old cab system. Tipping is archaic and bizarre and ought to be eliminated in favor of fair, predictable wages and a client/service provider relationship which does not involve a faux-Victorian status hierarchy.
Yeah, I've personally overlooked Uber's most unfortunate PR crises because darn, it's convenient to not pay a tip. But if that slim advantage goes away, I'm back to the same decision matrix that made me dislike taxis.
I've been out of the states for 1.5 years and have gotten totally comfortable with how most of the world doesn't tip. Please don't force it on me again.
Yep, I absolutely adore the states it's one of my favourite places but as somebody from the UK by the time I leave I'm always glad to be leaving behind the tipping mentality.
So uber is recreating the taxi system with all its warts. I can't wait for stage 3 where they lobby for local regulations and licensing limiting competition.
And stage 4 where they introduce "UberHand", which doesn't require an app; instead, you just wave down one of their yellow-car "driver partners" and pay them in cash. Like:
Seems like you haven't had any exceptional drivers!
I've had drivers on Uber-like services offer water, mints, candy, magazines to read. Definitely makes the experience more pleasant, but adds to the driver's overhead cost. I could see tipping to subsidize that.
Interestingly Kalanick's statement on the settlement that forces the tipping notification does not contain any reference to that part of it:
"Today we announced a settlement in two important class-action lawsuits: O’Connor (California) and Yucesoy (Massachusetts). The key issue at stake in both cases is whether drivers using the Uber app should be classified as independent contractors or employees.
As part of this settlement, which covers all classification claims involving Uber in California and Massachusetts, the two sides have agreed that:
* Drivers will remain independent contractors, not employees;
* Uber will pay $84 million to the plaintiffs. There will be a second payment of $16 million if Uber goes public and our valuation increases one and a half times from our December 2015 financing valuation within the first year of an IPO;
* Uber will provide drivers with more information about their individual rating and how it compares with their peers. Uber will also introduce a policy explaining the circumstances under which we ban drivers in these states from using the app; and
* We will work together to create a driver’s association in both states. Uber will help fund these two associations and meet them quarterly to discuss the issues that matter most to drivers.
Six years ago when Uber first started in San Francisco, it was easy to communicate with the handful of drivers using the app. Austin Geidt, who ran marketing, called each one regularly to get their feedback and make sure things were working well. It was clear from those early conversations that drivers really valued the freedom Uber offered.
Today, while the number of drivers using our app has grown dramatically, their reasons for doing so haven’t changed. In the U.S. almost 90 percent say they choose Uber because they want to be their own boss. Drivers value their independence — the freedom to push a button rather than punch a clock, to use Uber and Lyft simultaneously, to drive most of the week or for just a few hours.
That’s why we are so pleased that this settlement recognizes that drivers should remain as independent contractors, not employees. As one driver told the court: “I’ve been an employee and an employer, and I’ve also been an independent contractor. I know the difference between these things. With Uber, I’m an independent contractor. And I wouldn’t have it any other way.” As another said: “I wouldn’t even want to be an Uber employee. I would quit if they tried to make me an employee, because I value my freedom as an independent contractor too much.”
That said, as Uber has grown — over 450,000 drivers use the app each month here in the U.S. — we haven’t always done a good job working with drivers. For example, we don’t have a policy explaining when and how we bar drivers from using the app, or a process to appeal these decisions. At our size that’s not good enough. It’s time to change.
So today we’ve published a driver deactivation policy for the first time. It will apply across the United States, and our goal is to roll out similar policies globally over time. You can read it in English, Spanish, Mandarin and Arabic, with more languages to follow.
It’s incredibly important that when people use Uber, they have a great experience — one that is safe, reliable, convenient and a good value. Otherwise, fewer passengers will use the app over time, which is bad for everyone. The policy explains why drivers are deactivated, the warnings we give and the circumstances in which drivers can use the app again.
Sometimes it’s clear that a driver shouldn’t be allowed on our platform: we permanently ban drivers who are violent, drink and drive, or refuse someone a ride because of the color of their skin or sexual orientation (it happens, sadly). But what if a driver’s rating declines due to poor driving or a smelly car? (And it’s not just bad smells that cause problems — we do get complaints about too much Febreze.) In those cases we let the driver...
Presumably because they (rightly, IMHO) think it's a terrible idea for their service, brand, and customers & would like to keep it from becoming a norm.
"The company said it has no plans to add an option to tip through its app or to lower the cost of fares under the assumption people will always leave tips voluntarily."
Uber just settled that cash tips are OK, but they obviously want this to die quickly if they have no plans to integrate tipping into the application and hence the experience like Lyft. If having a "great experience" is core to Uber, I'm sure that the confusion and behavior change now that drivers can ask for tips will negatively affect people's experiences, result in lower ratings, and Uber can flag such drivers (maybe customers) as having a rating below a certain threshold and drop them (?). But keeping driver supply seems important...
One of the major reasons Chinese taxi drivers prefer Didi to Uber is that they can get tips. So I think that's a huge move in the right direction. Finding a driver on a Friday evening is free market jungle at its finest. This way at least you have options.
What? I lived in China for five years, took Didi many times and never heard of anyone tipping taxi drivers except in rare occasions. The few times I tried to tip drivers they were offended or thought I was joking (unless they weren't using the meter). The reason Chinese taxi drivers prefer Didi is that Uber has virtually no market share in China.
Well then you must have been in another China than me. In the China I went to you won't even get a taxi in a busy time if you don't start the taxi search with a tip.
It's not a tip, it's a bounty. And it only applies to taxi drivers, AFAIK. Ridesharing drivers are on the same surge pricing style system that uber uses.
The main reason I liked Uber was the lack of tipping. You summon a car, go where you're going, get out and the fare is paid automatically. It's a perfectly seemless process. We've injected tips into so many transactions that it was refreshing to have one where I didn't have to try and guess what the "real" price is.
Personally, as someone who certainly tips in restaurants and some other situations but doesn't go overboard--even though I travel a lot, I'm never sure what to do in so many of these gray areas given that I don't want to universally just my wallet.
For example, I take a limo service that's pretty cut and dried. Pick me up, drop me off. There's a tip field when I sign the receipt. I don't add anything and I've never gotten a dirty look or a suggestion that I might have "missed something." I assume I'm not being horribly cheap.
51 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 122 ms ] threadThis is taking one of the best things about Uber and Uber-like services away. Ignoring the surge pricing BS, I don't have to keep an eye on the meter, I don't have to argue with the driver about the fare, I don't have to worry about the tip, I don't need cash on hand, etc.
On the other hand, putting on my "caring about people" hat, if Uber can't/won't pay a living wage for a day's worth of work, and keeps cutting its prices which have a direct impact on people's income, bring on the tipping.
So you can cover the cost of their employees while they intentionally run at negative margins, attempting to eliminate competition so they can later charge you monopolistic pricing?
Which would you rather have - some income, or none?
It's not hard for me to see this developing into conversations along the following:
"Um, tips aren't included you know."
"I don't have any change."
"Here let me make you some."
"I really don't."
'Tips are really expected."
"Fine, here's $2."
"That all?"
"Yes"
You: Rate 2 out of 5.
It seems like there's an easy free-market solution to this.
Since Uber was on the losing side of eliminating tips from a policy standpoint, just let customers en masse accomplish the same goal: Simply add another field to the screen explicitly showing if the driver expects tips or not.
Some example screenshots from Uber showing a driver profile to modify:
http://therivardreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/uber_s...
http://cdn.moneycrashers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/uber...
This concept would be similar to filtering ebay sellers that offer free shipping (aka built into the final selling price) or expect extra shipping charges. Another point of seller differentiation is allowing "returns/refunds" or "all sales final." Instead of ebay dictating a rigid policy, the ebay bidders can use filters to avoid sellers with undesirable attributes.The Uber drivers would learn very quickly whether "expecting tips" is a smart business strategy to maximize income.
For curiosity's sake, I went to Lyft to see their policy on tipping: https://help.lyft.com/hc/en-us/articles/213583978-How-to-Tip...
Since Lyft seems to encourage tipping, I'm guessing this is one of the reasons why many consider their platform more "driver friendly." It would be interesting to see what % of passengers tip Lyft drivers. That might be predictive of how Uber passengers would choose the "tipping=No" drivers.
IMO all jobs, cab driving included, should be paid well enough that tipping simply isn't necessary. Companies shouldn't encourage tipping (which is often also tax dodging) just because they don't want to pay their employees enough that tipping isn't required to sustain them.
Having said that, while tipping shouldn't be encouraged if somebody does go above and beyond the call of duty for me I'm going to find a way to reward them. That might be a simple "Thank you so much, that was really nice of you" up to and including paying extra if I can afford to do so and feel it's warranted.
Yes, I understand that OP and you don't favor tipping but we're already past that point. (The lawsuit was already settled and Uber lost the battle about tipping.)
In other words, we can have 2 types of discussions about this:
#1) a hypothetical clean slate where Uber didn't exist and a lawsuit was not settled. Therefore, we can discuss social idealization of not tipping, etc.
or
#2) the settled lawsuit is a reality and tipping (in some form -- but still possibly optional) is a fait accompli. In light of that, we discuss business responses in terms of practicality, customer filters, UX/UI complexity, etc.
My post was talking about #2.
If the OP's scope of "shouldn't ever be encouraged" includes a total revamp of Uber to remove all text throughout the website and internal documents referring to "tipping", I suppose that may be possible but I don't know how realistic it is. To me, it's just relabeling money that was classified as "tips" as "service fee" or even not label it at all. Money is fungible so there are many ways to game it.
Lastly, I couldn't tell if your assertion of "this approach encourages tipping" meant that it would lead to isolated decisions of tipping or universal tipping. If you meant isolated tipping -- then yes, that would be obvious. However, if "encourage tipping" meant the entire economic ecosystem of Uber drivers converges towards tipping, that's not so obvious to me. Since Lyft has a tipping option, has social pressure caused 99% to 100% of Lyft passengers to always add a tip? (I'm not privy to Lyft's statistics so I don't know the answer to that.)
Isn't the simplest "free market" solution to allow drivers to set their own prices? Just give me a price, not a price + "and then maybe some more".
There's an interesting Freakonomics Episode titled “The No-Tipping Point.” which talks about the same.
http://freakonomics.com/podcast/danny-meyer/
It getting that "am I the only sane one?" feeling from the fact that this even became a court case. There are arbitrarily many fare breakdowns, all observationally equivalent, into "uncut tip", "driver's cut", and "Uber's" cut. You can equally well say that a $10 fare was:
A) $2 tip, $8 fare that Uber takes a $2 cut from, or
B) No tip, $10 fare that Uber took a $2 cut from.
Either way, the driver gets $8 and Uber gets $2. When you have no choice and Uber never itemizes a tip amount, it's equally right to say that Uber was taking 25% after a mandatory 25% tip (framing A) or that Uber was taking 20% from an untipped amount (framing B) or anything in between.
There is literally no "fact of the matter" as to which portion is a "tip" Uber is taking a cut from, and even if there were, Uber could reframe it in the light of any injunction so that the payment flows and fares are the same.
So people basically went to court over whether eggs must be labeled as "six" or a "half dozen". Wha?
It really doesn't. It means that my water gets refilled, you don't mess up the order, you're there when I have a problem, want to order dessert, want my check, etc. I can't speak for everyone but if I have to eventually ask someone else to find you to get me my check--that's when tips go down, not because you weren't pestering me constantly.
For example, http://www.marketwatch.com/story/tipping-doesnt-reward-good-... , which suggests that tipping incentivises (amongst other things) touching the customer, telling them they've make good decisions, and (for female service staff) being physically attractive. The customers are like rats in a Skinner box; you just have to do these few simple little things and they hand over extra money. Service staff who make good tips know this, and eventually it teaches contempt for the customers.
http://uberhand.weebly.com
I've had drivers on Uber-like services offer water, mints, candy, magazines to read. Definitely makes the experience more pleasant, but adds to the driver's overhead cost. I could see tipping to subsidize that.
"Today we announced a settlement in two important class-action lawsuits: O’Connor (California) and Yucesoy (Massachusetts). The key issue at stake in both cases is whether drivers using the Uber app should be classified as independent contractors or employees.
As part of this settlement, which covers all classification claims involving Uber in California and Massachusetts, the two sides have agreed that:
* Drivers will remain independent contractors, not employees;
* Uber will pay $84 million to the plaintiffs. There will be a second payment of $16 million if Uber goes public and our valuation increases one and a half times from our December 2015 financing valuation within the first year of an IPO;
* Uber will provide drivers with more information about their individual rating and how it compares with their peers. Uber will also introduce a policy explaining the circumstances under which we ban drivers in these states from using the app; and
* We will work together to create a driver’s association in both states. Uber will help fund these two associations and meet them quarterly to discuss the issues that matter most to drivers.
Six years ago when Uber first started in San Francisco, it was easy to communicate with the handful of drivers using the app. Austin Geidt, who ran marketing, called each one regularly to get their feedback and make sure things were working well. It was clear from those early conversations that drivers really valued the freedom Uber offered.
Today, while the number of drivers using our app has grown dramatically, their reasons for doing so haven’t changed. In the U.S. almost 90 percent say they choose Uber because they want to be their own boss. Drivers value their independence — the freedom to push a button rather than punch a clock, to use Uber and Lyft simultaneously, to drive most of the week or for just a few hours.
That’s why we are so pleased that this settlement recognizes that drivers should remain as independent contractors, not employees. As one driver told the court: “I’ve been an employee and an employer, and I’ve also been an independent contractor. I know the difference between these things. With Uber, I’m an independent contractor. And I wouldn’t have it any other way.” As another said: “I wouldn’t even want to be an Uber employee. I would quit if they tried to make me an employee, because I value my freedom as an independent contractor too much.”
That said, as Uber has grown — over 450,000 drivers use the app each month here in the U.S. — we haven’t always done a good job working with drivers. For example, we don’t have a policy explaining when and how we bar drivers from using the app, or a process to appeal these decisions. At our size that’s not good enough. It’s time to change.
So today we’ve published a driver deactivation policy for the first time. It will apply across the United States, and our goal is to roll out similar policies globally over time. You can read it in English, Spanish, Mandarin and Arabic, with more languages to follow.
It’s incredibly important that when people use Uber, they have a great experience — one that is safe, reliable, convenient and a good value. Otherwise, fewer passengers will use the app over time, which is bad for everyone. The policy explains why drivers are deactivated, the warnings we give and the circumstances in which drivers can use the app again.
Sometimes it’s clear that a driver shouldn’t be allowed on our platform: we permanently ban drivers who are violent, drink and drive, or refuse someone a ride because of the color of their skin or sexual orientation (it happens, sadly). But what if a driver’s rating declines due to poor driving or a smelly car? (And it’s not just bad smells that cause problems — we do get complaints about too much Febreze.) In those cases we let the driver...
Uber just settled that cash tips are OK, but they obviously want this to die quickly if they have no plans to integrate tipping into the application and hence the experience like Lyft. If having a "great experience" is core to Uber, I'm sure that the confusion and behavior change now that drivers can ask for tips will negatively affect people's experiences, result in lower ratings, and Uber can flag such drivers (maybe customers) as having a rating below a certain threshold and drop them (?). But keeping driver supply seems important...
For example, I take a limo service that's pretty cut and dried. Pick me up, drop me off. There's a tip field when I sign the receipt. I don't add anything and I've never gotten a dirty look or a suggestion that I might have "missed something." I assume I'm not being horribly cheap.