I've been trying out different Romance languages, and have heard that learning Esperanto makes learning such languages easier. Does anyone know if that's true or not?
Honestly, for your purposes it sounds like learning basic Latin would be a much better choice. Having Latin syntax and vocab in the back of my mind definitely helped when I was learning French and Portuguese (even though my Latin is terrible, just knowing things like verb conjugations helped a lot with seeing the patterns in what initially looked like arbitrary differences between the two languages).
Being native in German I found having to learn Latin in school didn't help me in any sense for French, Spanish or Portuguese. If you like Latin, feel free to learn it. But I consider it as a waste of time, in particular if you just want it to learn as a foundation for modern foreign languages.
Makes sense to me what you say.
People often say that knowing latin is good if you want to study medicine. It's ridiculous. Learning a list of 100 relevant latin root-words would likely achieve as much.
Just keep doing what you're doing. Sounds like you're pretty motivated, so learning a few Romance languages simultaneously will be a much better use of your time. Highly recommend reading Wikipedia articles to give perspective about how the languages developed from Latin.
so learning a few Romance languages simultaneously will be a much better use of your time.
This is bad advice. People grossly underestimate the effort to learn ONE language, never mind two related ones at the same time.
You will probably not succeed at learning a new language unless you have a pressing, extrinsic reason to. Self-study language courses have dropout rates north of 98%. Even in an educational setting with young people (better at learning languages than older ones), it's only about 20% who progress beyond the bare beginner stage.
Esperanto is MAYBE easy enough to learn from only curiosity and dedication... but I am aware that "eternaj komencantoj" is an expression in Esperanto-land.
Depends what your goal is. If you want to be able to speak/write one or more romance languages correctly, then it's probably bad advice.
If the goal is to be able to have a rough understanding and be able to make yourself understood, then I'm not so sure.
My French is passable, and it made picking up enough Italian, Spanish and Portuguese words that I can slowly work my way through many types of text in those languages a lot easier. Not least because my French teacher made a point of explaining how French vocabulary related to Spanish and English - just the habit of recognising which sounds are related in different languages helps tremendously in recognising words without having to explicitly learn them in each language. I don't use any of that much and certainly not enough to justify spending a lot of time learning to speak more languages flawlessly, but it's been helpful in many occasions.
Esperanto's design may have been a good idea 100 years ago. But its design is too shortsighted for this modern world. All it solves is spelling and pronunciation problems, when it could do so much more.
The coordination problem - agreeing on what what language to agree on - is by far the largest problem with the good idea of an easy auxiliary language (assuming it's a good idea). Any advantages you could get from an esperanto that isn't Esperanto, are trumped by the fact that Esperanto exists - such as it is.
Not quite. It also has a very regular grammar, handles regular composition of words (skribmaŝino, bovido, ...), regular formation of words like [nowhere, someone, whatever], simplifies the formation of verb tenses (also handling things like the future of the past which do not exist in other languages), has a choice of roots that makes it familiar for people knowing any indoeuropean language, and more
If you speak English it's pretty easy to get the gist of both.
Interlingua
Patre nostre, qui es in le celos,
que tu nomine sia sanctificate;
que tu regno veni;
que tu voluntate sia facite
como in le celo, etiam super le terra.
Folkspraak
Ons Fater, whem leven in der Himmel,
Mai din Name werden helig,
Mai din Konigdom kommen,
Mai din will werden,
in der Erd und in der Himmel.
I recommend Arika Orkent's "In the land of invented languages" for people who are interested in the history of invented languages. Esperanto is still the only which is in any sort of regular use, though.
"Arika Okrent guessed in her book In the Land of Invented Languages that there might be 20–30 fluent [Klingon] speakers."[1]
"In 2009 Lu Wunsch-Rolshoven used 2001 year census data from Hungary and Lithuania as a base for an estimate, resulting in approximately 160,000 to 300,000 to speak [Esperanto] actively or fluently throughout the world, with about 80,000 to 150,000 of these being in the European Union."[2]
"As of 1996, there were 350 or so attested cases of families with native Esperanto speakers. Estimates from associations indicate that there are currently around 1,000 Esperanto-speaking families, involving perhaps 2,000 children. In all known cases, speakers are natively bilingual, or multilingual, raised in both Esperanto and either the local national language or the native language of their parents."[3]
I second the recommendation for the book. She describes a meeting of Esperanto enthusiasts much like the Prospect article, a gathering of welcoming, like minded enthusiasts.
See info and excerpts from Ms. Orkent's book here:
http://inthelandofinventedlanguages.com/index.php
Unfortunately Folksprak is not a good example. I was active in the group for many years and it was pretty much a bunch of little fiefdoms with no coherent development strategy. Over 10 years later, they still don't have a single language, just a mish-mash of little dialects. If I wanted to learn "Folksprak", I'm then in a worse position than I'd have been learning a specific Germanic dialect. Might as well learn Dutch or a Scandinavian language. At least then there would be some body of actual speakers.
I like the idea around Lojban[0]. Esperanto feels like another standard to replace the 99 others where lojban seems to be more than that. I don't like inconsistency in structured language and there's always glaring inconsistency in natural spoken language. If I learn a linguistic rule that is only applicable in ~70% of cases, its becomes a mental stressor.
However, I'm not certain any secondary language can ever really become a universal language. Until there's direct economic force behind adoption, I see it as a hobby language. I am also not sure any constructed language can remain pure when it becomes popular. Languages, dialects, idioms etc. like to drift between isolated or semi-isolated groups. As communication and transportation become cheaper though, who knows how prevalent that will be in the future.
Esperanto is a compromise since it tries to be familiar AND logical. The word ovaro "collection of eggs" pointlessly duplicates the meaning of nesto "nest".
What makes you think 'nest' and 'collection of eggs' are synonyms? True, it's common for a collection of eggs to be found in a nest, but they don't mean the same thing.
I haven't looked into how Esperanto is inconsistent and I'm sure it's very consistent compared to modern languages. I think the two are built on two different paradigms though.
Esperanto seems to be a language built for easy adoption. The grammar and vocabulary seem to be a somewhat fair mixture of popular natural languages with the hope for easier adoption. A claim I've heard is that someone that knows Chinese or English would be able to communicate effectively in Esperanto in four months.
I see the goal of Lojban being different. Lojban's grammar is based on predicate logic with the intent being a syntactically unambiguous language. This makes it more like a programming language than a natural language.
The two bleed into each other often since Lojban's root-words are similar to those in popular natural languages and Esperanto is a constructed language with a simple grammar so it's naturally (artificially?) much more consistent than current spoken languages.
I just think Lojban's goal is more interesting than Esperanto's despite honestly feeling like Esperanto is better suited to be a natural language replacement. Esperanto certainly has more resources and support.
I'm no linguist and I've only superficially researched either so spare me if I'm being unintentionally disingenuous to either camp or misinterpreted their claims.
A regular participant in the sci.lang newsgroup on Usenet compiled a partial list of irregularities in Esperanto a long time ago.[1] Basically, the whole project of building Esperanto as a constructed international auxiliary language was full of internal inconsistencies, especially in word derivation,[2] and full of bizarre arbitrary differences from any natural human language that just make it hard to learn to speak fluently.[3] I have lived in more than one country, and have studied Esperanto quite a while during the 1990s, but it's never had any day-by-day usefulness for any practical purpose for me that any other language has had.
Lojban only looks special because the authors described it with the jargon invented with it. You can find it described with the usual vocabulary and it doesn't look very different from any random language. If you want to try something actually special, take a look at Ithkuil. http://ithkuil.net/
Ithkuil is really interesting and certainly special, but was never intended as a natural spoken language replacement. Lojban has a more natural word/meaning verbosity ratio and seems less structurally complex.
Ithkuil's goals seem very different than those of Lojban/Esperanto.
Edit: I don't like Ithkuil's numbering system. Ithkuil uses base 100 for numbers for some reason. I think base16 or even 12 seems more logical/divisible/memorable. Lojban is base seems to be base16.
Listening to languages I'm vaguely familiar with - I also like the BBC in Persian and Hausa - seems to have become part of my evening routine (I work as a technical translator). I learned Esperanto on a whim in uni in the 80s but haven't used it actively ever since.
It's a wonderful and practical idea to try and standardize language, albeit a naive one.
IMO it's pointless to try and debate the design of esperanto, or any other forced language. Because it's just that, it's forced. I just don't believe you can force a language on people.
Languages are as naturally ocurring as anything else in nature. They evolve organically. If we were hypothetically able to force esperanto on a part of the populace then that very same populace would evolve the language and the wordlists would be rewritten by the people introducing new words.
Only for the native english speakers. Others we must do a tremendous effort. Even worse, in a discussion —because you are not native— you feel always weaker. So my point will be for a non natural language. Easy to learn for everybody so we all play with the same rules.
[EDIT] The idea is not to replace natural languages, but to pick an extra non-natural language as an international one
As a non-native English speaker I think this is a horrible idea. So rather than for us to all communicate in English which is spoken natively by around half a billion, you'd rather international communication take place in a language nobody speaks natively?
That seems like a horrible idea. When the lingua franca is some common natively spoken language at least people who can confidently correct you exist.
Having everyone speak a non-native language would just lead to a regression towards the mean, and such a language would be much harder to learn than any existing language because it wouldn't come with a culture. There would be very few books, movies etc. in that language.
English is the third most spoken language. There is more people speaking Spanish and almost double speaking Chinese.
More or less 1 of every 7 people in the world speaks Chinese. Should we make Chinese the lingua franca? Why is english better?
Also, there are more people speaking Spanish than English.
One of the inherent fallacies in your initial comment that I didn't address, but which you've brought up here: Nobody makes anything the lingua franca, it's something that happens organically.
I'm sure you're as aware as I am why English is the current lingua franca. It's mostly a historical accident, and it's what we've got.
Whether the lingua franca might be English, Chinese or whatever is unrelated to your initial comment, which is what I was replying to.
There you were proposing that everyone should learn some artificial language for international communication. I think this is a bad idea for the reasons I stated above.
Now instead of defending your argument that we should all use some constructed language you're off on a digression about why English and not Chinese, both of which are natural languages.
I'm still defending my argument.
And for that reason I'm saying that "English is already spoken by X people" is not argument. And that is the argument I always hear about this topic.
My argument is that to learn and master a natural language will take years —and even with a lot of effort— you will probably not master it.
Which makes English an elitist skill. Should the international language be an elitist thing? No, it should not.
If your mother tongue is a Germanic one then you will find English quite easy. Otherwise not.
Non natural languages like esperanto are easier to learn and master. In a couple of months you are used to them.
I wasn't making any argument for why English should be the lingua franca. In any case all such arguments are academic, it's not like there's going to be some meeting where the lingua franca gets decided.
Let's say that there was such a meeting and "we" all decided that we're going to speak Klingon or whatever as a lingua franca. How do you think that would work? People wouldn't care what the decreed language is, maybe you'd have UN meetings in it, pass laws to teach it in school in lots of nations or something.
It would probably become even more of an elitist skill than just using a language that already has lots of native and non-native speakers already and lots of culture to go along with it, just like Latin was back when we effectively had this sort of arrangement, sans the constructed language.
Finally, if you really haven't heard a better reason for why English became the current dominant language than "it's already spoken by X people, but how come not Chinese and Spanish" you really owe it to yourself to read some of the things that come up when you Google the likes of "history of lingua franca" etc.
What makes English an elitist skill is precisely its natural language nature.
I hope you had some time to visit europe. All of us get English as a second or third language at school.In european countries were films and tv programs are translated to their own language is not that easy to find common people that can speak English beyond the pretty basic. And this is a reality in countries like Italy, Spain, France or Germany.
In such countries, when you want to learn english —and you do not have a lot of money— your best deal is to travel to UK and get a crappy job so you can learn the language.
If instead of a natural language they got taught a non natural one, they will not need to that, because one of their advantages is that you get them really fast.
I've lived there my entire life, and not in native English speaking countries. As I said at the start of this thread I'm not a native English speaker.
> In european countries were films and tv
> programs are translated to their own language.
This isn't the case in all European countries. I don't think Germany, Italy, Spain etc. are doing themselves any favors by doing this. Not dubbing your movies is the perfect opportunity to teach your population the lingua franca, they're missing out, and it shows in their English skills.
I didn't grow up with dubbed movies, and I think it helped by language skills immensely.
> your best deal is to travel to UK and get a
> crappy job so you can learn the language.
Plenty of people learn English a near-native level without living in a natively English speaking country. I did, just watch some TV (not dubbed) and read lots of books (not translated).
> If instead of a natural language they got
> taught a non natural one.
I guess, maybe, but really this is never going to happen, we might as well fantasize over how easy it would be if we did away with this whole communication via sound waves fad, and just all learned the same sign language instead.
We live in an increasingly globalized world, English is the de-facto world language by sheer inertia. States that don't have it as a native language that aren't teaching their children it at a native level are at a distinct disadvantage.
Yes. It doubles Chinese or Spanish. But again, we are in 2016.
As a civilization we have a global communication system. But we can not understand each other.
We are 7 billion people. 200 million speak english as a secondary language and 300/400 million as main language. With this numbers, don't you think that it will be better to find a language that is fine for everybody? Or when someone wants get into the international arena he/she must to learn English which will take years?
> 200 million speak english as a secondary language
Where did you get that number? The sources I've seen are 1+ billion
I'm not saying everyone should speak english. But it seems if things carry on the way they are, everyone will speak english, even if it isn't the best "choice"
From Wikipedia.
Turns out that Spanish wikipedia and English wikipedia shows quite different numbers. So now I'm confused.
In this website http://www.ethnologue.com/language/eng they say that total english users are 942,533,930.
Yeah the only way to force a language on anyone would be to subjugate them somehow. The native americans are a good example because they were completely surrounded, decimated by disease and war. The sami in Sweden are another example, isolated up north, forced to learn Swedish and made to forget their native heritage, but they can still remember their language.
Even when the nobility spoke French and latin in britain, the people still developed their own english.
It's impossible to impose a language on a free population.
You're giving anecdotes with nobility in France and Britain in the period of english (major) development, but in the medieval times which languages the proles (that the noblemen had little or no contact with) spoke was of little concern to those in power. And there's more, actually! The difference in the spoken language was serving as a distinctive trait of nobility which in itself was something sought to be preserved not obliterated!
It depends what you mean by forcing. At no point did a bunch of Americans show up with guns and go "You speak English now." Maybe the British did a bit of that. Anyway, the reason English became common is not due to force, but because the largest economic and cultural power spoke (and speaks) English, and that English is easy to learn badly, though difficult to master.
Ithkuil is my favorite conlang, it has an amazing amount of depth that can be presented in surprisingly few syllables. It was designed to be a sort of uber-language. Have the most amount of information in the least number of syllables while allowing absolutely no ambiguity. It also attempts to be somewhat tailored to map to how we naturally think about concepts, and a lot of information you have to get from context in languages like English are made explicit in the grammatical forms of the language. I think the grammar of it is really something special, however, it was never designed to be either learnable or really even speakable, which is a shame. I think given the right overcoat the grammar could form the base of a surprisingly usable language.
To what extent are many languages today "artificial"? Modern Hebrew was resurrected from a language unspoken for millennia outside of religious services and given an up-to-date vocabulary. Shakespeare and Elias Lonnrot invented thousands of everyday words used today in English and Finnish respectively. Standard German and Italian are products of their unification/nationalist movements, supplanting old regional dialects, as is the Greek Katharevousa (official language until 1976).
Esperanto and other conlangs are more an extreme case, but there's surprisingly little that's "natural" about the "natural" languages either.
Most standardised languages are sorts of conlangs. I can be a testimone for Turkish, where the language was cleared from persian and arabic loanwords by very oppressing revolutionary govt action. So much so that one generation had difficult time talking to grandparents, they say.
Certainly, though widespread literacy was a thing of the republican era. And the old script and the language was abolished and not taught in the schools, so it only lives among historians (unlike latin and ancient greek which is studied a bit in European tertiary schools).
To add to this, I met someone who claims she cannot read Neitzsche because she doesn't know most of the terms recent Turkish translations use and can't find any older translations.
She's right, especially in philosophy, every translator invents his own language, and never care enough to inform the user with a translator's note or whatnot. I had my worst experience till now with translations of Lajos Egri and Schopenhauer. Sometimes it's easier to just learn the original language...
This is a little odd but I stalked you a little and think you've made some cool comments. I'm also in Istanbul, would you be down to grab coffee sometime? I would send you an email but your profile doesn't have any contact information.
A few words in case somebody interprets that as if Italian is an artificial language.
The drive for unification in Italy was big in 1800. The language a unified Italy would speak was decided long before because poets and writers already standardized on one of the language of Tuscany, the one of Florence. That was the "standard Italian" since 1200. Not that many people spoke it. Everybody spoke the language of it's area, sometimes not. All those languages derived from Latin but people could not easily understand each other, especially over long distances (even 30 km.) Only priests and literates had lingua francas, Latin and standard Italian.
Some samples from famous authors:
Ariosto, 1500, can be read quite easily nowadays [1]
Petrarca, 1300, is a little more difficult and it takes a little to get accustomed with. [2]
Dante, 1200, is also difficult sometimes but high school students read it with little help. [3]
We study the Divina Commedia in High school (for three years, one "cantica" per year) and it is not actually that easy, not only for the language (that it is still a dialect of the time) but also for the interpretation of the text that is full of references to the political and social situation of the time (beginning of 1300 btw). Most of each page are actually notes...
Dante is usually credited for having chosen the Tuscany/Florence dialect to be the future Italian, later adopted by many writers and poets (that also contributed to the evolution of the language), so yes, I wouldn't say it is artificial at all, maybe the only artificial thing is the choice of a dialect over another.
And as I guess many already know many of the regional dialects survived, and in some regions more than others are still spoken. In fact an Italian is often bilingual in a sense. And if you happen to be in a book store in Italy it is not at all that rare to find a book from a contemporary author written in his local dialect.
BTW we study all of the three authors you mentioned at school ... not an easy task I assure you :P
"Norwegian" is two languages - Bokmål ("book language") and Nynorsk ("new Norwegian").
Both are constructed, and not just bits and pieces, though they were constructed from "natural" elements.
Bokmål came into being through a series of drastic reforms of a combination of Danish (which was the administrative language until the dissolution of the union with Denmark in 1814) and urban Norwegian dialects, which were heavily influenced by Danish.
The reforms were aimed at removing a lot of the Danish influence, and continued well into the 20th century (well, in a sense they are still continuing, though making Bokmål less Danish is no longer an explicit goal). Many of the changes took decades to take root as most adults didn't really change but school children were taught and graded on the new forms.
E.g. the change from Danish word-order in numbers ("fireogtyve" - 24 - "fire-og-tyve = four and twenty") to uniformity with less formal spoken Norwegian dialects ("tjuefire" - "twentyfour") is one that was still for all intents ongoing at least well into the 80's (you'll still find older people using the old forms today) despite being introduced by a language reform in 1951. My parents learned the new form in primary school in the late 50's yet still regularly reverted to the old form around me while I was growing up in 70's and 80's, and as a result I used to switch back and forth between the two at least into my 20s (in the 90's)
(Incidentally these reforms also means that for Norwegians learning German, spending some time reading old Norwegian books is highly helpful to get used to German word order and even recognizing vocabulary, as the reforms that moved Bokmål away from Danish also moved it further away from German)
Nynorsk, meanwhile, was explicitly created as a form of unification of a number of very different rural Norwegian dialects. This included synthesising a grammar, creating a bunch of new words that tried to find forms that were "close enough" to the widest possible range of dialects, and combining a lot of other elements from different dialects.
Bokmål is used as the written language of the vast majority, despite most spoken dialects probably in many ways being closer to Nynorsk (though more so in some parts of the country than others - Norwegian dialects are extremely varied). In some parts Bokmål - particularly spoken Bokmål - has a tendency to be seen as more refined, as a remnant of their historical origins. An unofficial dialect - Riksmål - is basically Bokmål sans a number of the reforms, and remains much closer to Danish. It sees very little use, though well into the 80's one of the largest conservative newspapers stuck to a lot of the Riksmål forms.
Bokmål and Nynorsk are mutually intelligible, and successive language reforms over more than a century have aimed to bring them closer (largely by creating optional forms of many words that are consider valid in both languages), but having to learn both is a frequent cause of discontent at Norwegian schools (it annoyed me immensely, because unlike most Norwegians I speak very close to pure Bokmål, and a relatively conservative form of it, as a legacy of my dads upbringing and reading a lot of old books growing up, which made Nynorsk harder)
While the reforms do take into account natural language shifts to some extent, large parts of the current modern structure of both languages was effectively created by academics.
Maybe I'm just an idiot, but I contest this :) I have an easier time understanding spoken Swedish (and written Danish) than Nynorsk. I think unless you grew up in an area with a dialect very similar to it, or had it drilled into your head in school, it's basically a foreign language.
Context: I speak Bøkmål and Trøndersk (for you non-Norwegians, that's the regional dialect in the greater Trondheim area), and was raised primarily abroad, though we primarily spoke Norwegian at home.
No one really speaks Nynorsk (or Bokmål for that matter), they write Nynorsk and speak dialects. Though it's true that if you come across a dialect that you don't understand at all, it's likely that they write Nynorsk as well.
Trøndelag used to be a Nynorsk core area, by the way. Around 1940, half the population there used Nynorsk.
Zamenhoff lived in a part of the world where the Russian, Austro-Hungarian and German empires intersected, and Esperanto reflects that. Although the vocabulary is largely Romance, there are words of German/Yiddish and Slavic origin and the grammar is more agglutinative in character, like Hungarian. It's very much a product of the roots, history and heritage of its creator and his homeland.
Mandarin Chinese is a curious example of this because it's at an almost perfect intersection of constructed and natural (which aren't opposites). It was defined as the language spoken in Beijing but limited to the vocabulary shared between all the Chinese languages. Which is not a language anyone was technically speaking at the time -- Beijing slang was and is pretty common -- and we can confirm it was constructed because we know who, when, and where Standard Chinese began. But it is still obviously a natural language.
Simplified Characters are another example. A lot of the simplifications had been around for a very long time, so they existed as part of a natural language, but saying, X is traditional, Y is simplified, and standardizing the simplified version, is fundamentally the act of language construction. [The lack of such a deep history is probably why https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_round_of_simplified_Chi... never caught on.]
One big problem I see with many of these artificial languages is that they do not put the ease of pronunciation at the topmost priority. I think it would be interesting to make a study on what sounds can anybody produce. It is also important to study the different subtleties that people perceive as different sounds. For example in my experience the Chinese have a hard time understanding you if you mangle the different tones they use for vowels, however they completely ignore the 'length' of a tone which is very often used to distinguish words in the slavic languages.
I only have second-hand accounts from proselytes, and they say esperanto is nowhere as bad as English for Chinese, Japanese and Koreans. Just google around if you want to read from them. English is so difficult to pronounce correctly than my prior is to believe them.
廢話。How many native speakers of various Chinese languages do you know how converse with you regularly in Esperanto? The phonological system of Esperanto is noticeably worse than that of English for native speakers of Chinese to acquire.
Question: Are you referring to the spelling<->phonetic consistency of the language or to the sounds the language use? I think you and tokenadult may be speaking about different things here.
What does that even mean? Have you tried pronouncing any Khoisan languages (or other languages with clicks) for example? If your native language is English, you'll have a much harder time than a native Zulu speaker would have.
Whether a target language is easy to pronounce depends on your native language (and other languages you can pronounce accurately). If you're a native Chinese speaker (whichever variety, but particularly Mandarin), English isn't anything like as difficult as French to pronounce.
If you're not already familiar with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toki_Pona , check it out. "Both its sound inventory and phonotactics (patterns of possible sound combinations) are found in the majority of human languages and are therefore readily accessible."
It very much depends on the auxlang. Most of them do try to make things easy, but auxlang creators tend to be a little more linguistically naïve than other artificial language creators, so they end up using themselves as the benchmark. Esperanto is a notorious example of this, where you have initial consonant clusters like 'sc' /st͡s/ and internal consonant clusters like 'tĉ' /tt͡ʃ/. Zamenhof essentially took a simplified version of the Polish consonant inventory and applied it Esperanto.
There are plenty of studies of consonant and vowel frequencies in human languages. We know, for instance, that [p] [t] [k] are found in virtually all languages, that most languages have at least one liquid, one nasal consonant (which can be realised as [n], [m] or [ŋ] depending the position of the consonant that follows it is). Most languages also have [ʔ], but you never notice it as most only allow it initially and exclude it when spelling: if you were to choose any word in English beginning with a vowel in isolation, you will almost certainly start it with a glottal stop.
As far as vowels go, the classical five-vowel system is very prevalent: some approximation of it is used in lots of languages, and there are very few languages that use simpler systems, though Modern Standard Arabic, with its three-vowel system ([a], [i], [u]) is a widely-spoken counterexample. If you wanted to include more consonant clusters, you could add schwa as a epithetic vowel: in our hypothetical language, the word _plum_ could be phonemically /plum/, but phonetically [pəlum] for speakers who have difficulty with that initial consonant cluster.
Still, knowing what sounds people can pronounce is only half the battle: a good IAL would also have well designed _phonotactics_. That's a bit of a rabbit hole though!
Studies have shown Esperanto is a useful aide for teaching languages. For example, teach students Esperanto for 1 year and French for 3 years, and they end up speaking French better than the group who just learned French for 4 years. Learning one language makes learning other languages easier, and as a constructed language, Esperanto is very regular and thus easy to learn.
That's important because IMHO the most important point in the language debate is that we must become much more efficient language learners.
A part of my experience is that people start with grossly inefficient methods to speak foreign languages. Spend way too much time. Discard it as too difficult or not worth it.
Another part of my experience is that speaking a foreign languages is actually totally doable. We human beings are naturally skilled at it.
So what about esperanto? (One my languages).
There is still this misconception (also in this comments section) that it had the goal to do to existing languages what the euro did to existing currencies. That would have been silly, fortunately it has been a non-goal from the start.
What makes much more sense is that since it has a much nicer learning curve, young people and monoglots can use it as a testbed to get how to learn a language. Then reach much quicker a level where they can have a casual conversation in that or those other languages they are interested in.
That strategy work actually quite well, but require a non-conformist mind. People have a malthusian approach to language learning and _will_ tell you that you are just being silly.
Esperanto was the first (beyond my native, obviously) language I learned about twenty years ago. What I enjoyed about it then (and still do today, although I've learned a couple of natural languages since) was that I could learn it to a useful level (as in reading novels without a dictionary) in probably a couple of hundred hours. I still haven't managed that in other languages with much more study even in ones where I have reasonable conversational ability.
To use a hacker's analogy, learning a natural language is like learning C++, and learning Esperanto is like learning a scripting language like Ruby or Python.
That's mostly about how you study. My approach is sort of Lisp-like, and I become comfortable very early on with a mostly exploratory and immersive process.
There are two different ways to treat Esperanto, both of which come up in the comments. One way is to take Esperanto seriously as a proposal for a world auxiliary language that people from all over the world can use for intercommunication if they didn't grow up speaking a common native language. This first way of treating Esperanto for discussion immediately runs into practical issues and real-world trade-offs. As the article kindly submitted here for our discussion notes, "Because, of course, the massive, trumpeting, stamping, ear-flapping, blanka elefanto in the room is… English; English; English; the English language; the widespread global adoption thereof." It is already well known that the plurality of daily use of English around the world is use of English as an "interlanguage," communicating among persons who are not all native speakers of English, including millions of conversations a day in English that don't include any native speakers of English.[1] I have personally overheard hundreds of conversations in English in multiple countries among people who didn't grow up speaking English, and English is of course the interlanguage of online discussion sites such as Hacker News. (I have also overheard, and participated in, many hundreds of conversations in Modern Standard Chinese that include no native speakers of that language, as Chinese is my most proficient second language.)
For practical value for a language learner, incentives matter. People respond to incentives in deciding which languages to learn, and how attentive to be to opportunities to learn languages. And more opportunity to learn, with more sound recordings to listen to and more texts to read, makes it easier to learn a language. The pervasiveness of English all over the world makes English an easy language to learn--I'm not kidding. Precisely because hundreds of millions of people use English every day as an "interlanguage," English is quite "fault tolerant," full of social conventions about how to get around people with a beginning command of the language communicating with one another, including officially adopted controlled vocabularies for occupations like seafaring.[2] (Again, Modern Standard Chinese is similar in that poorly pronounced Mandarin Chinese is an actual lingua franca in many parts of southern China.) English-language daily newspapers abound all over the world, English-language videos number in the millions on YouTube, many recorded by second-language speakers of English, and English-language books and advertisements make up the plurality of the world's books and advertisements.
Languages spread around the world mostly by people using them or not for practical purposes. The majority of the settlement of the interior of North America by Europeans was done by Europeans who were not native speakers of English. (For example, both of my maternal grandparents, both of whom were born in Great Plains states, grew up in German-speaking families and had all of their schooling in the German language.) The freedom of the United States included a freedom to speak whatever language people pleased. (Abraham Lincoln funded German-language newspapers to help his presidential campaign, and Theodore Roosevelt campaigned in English, German, and French, the three languages he knew from childhood, in various places in the United States.) English was the customary language of governance in the United States, and still is not official at the federal level, but mostly English won out in the world's third most populous country because it was a common language that immigrants from a variety of places could use to communicate with one another (as happened in my paternal ancestral line). The huge population base of native speakers of English (in the following generations) in the United States who still had family ties to other countries provides English with a great advantage in spreading around the world.
Another way to treat Esperanto is to take it as a hobby, an exploration of t...
You suggest that the choice is between taking Esperanto seriously as a proposal for a world auxiliary language or take it as a hobby. My experience relates to neither of those. I see Esperanto as a remarkable success story, by far the most successful auxiliary language. It has survived wars and revolutions and economic crises and continues to attract people to learn and speak it. Over 400,000 people have signed up to the Duolingo Esperanto course in the last year. Esperanto works. I’ve used it in about seventeen countries over recent years. I recommend it to anyone, as a way of making friendly local contacts in other countries. English is not enough! I’ve made friends around the world through Esperanto that I would never have been able to communicate with otherwise. And then there’s the Pasporta Servo, which provides free lodging and local information to Esperanto-speaking travellers in over 90 countries. Over recent years I have had guided tours of Berlin, Douala and Milan in this planned language. I have discussed philosophy with a Slovene poet, humour on television with a Bulgarian TV producer. I’ve discussed what life was like in East Berlin before the wall came down and in Armenia when it was a Soviet republic, how to cook perfect spaghetti, the advantages and disadvantages of monarchy, and so on. I recommend it as a very practical way to overcome language barriers.
I will never learn more than the basics in Armenian or Slovene or Finnish, but I make use of Esperanto to get to know about the history, economy and the legal systems of countries I visit.
Esperanto's underlying desire for language simplification is still worth keeping in mind. Perhaps a standardized, simplified, "minimum viable English" could be identified and declared to be socially acceptable "because we say so." Non-native speakers might find such an MVE to be easier to learn and more comfortable to use.
The easy part would be to develop a set of tweaks to the more-arcane grammatical- and spelling rules of English, using crowd-sourced suggestions. For example --- and as a language purist it pains me deeply to say this:
+ Allow they and their (and even there) to be used as singular generic pronouns; so, for example, Any student can learn to speak English if they put there mind to it.
+ Allow there to be used as a possessive (vice their).
+ Allow consistent apostrophes for possessives; so, for example, The spread of English is hindered by some of it's fussy rules (which in currently-standard usage is incorrect).
This might be a useful project for someone working in linguistics: Collect and organize real-world examples of how people actually use English in non-standard ways, then propose a subset of those examples as MVE.
The hard part would be convincing the world that it's just as socially acceptable to speak and write MVE as it is to speak and write "standard" English.
A common accusation against Esperanto is that a lot of the complexity it takes away from grammar, it sneaks back in the form of idioms - but that's nothing to Basic English.
The only flaw with Esperanto is that it is a language. Languages hate staying still unless they're dead. I say this as someone who spent several months studying Esperanto and holding a few conversations. :) I treated it more as a "springboard" to language learning. Learning a second language is tough - learning a third language less so! So picking an easy second language, I found, helped speed up language acquisition (which was my goal).
Languages naturally change over time as the population invents slangs and irregulars, typically out of laziness. Certain vowels will be mixed or slurred, parts of words might change entirely, etc.
Even if Esperanto was taught to every individual as a second language - various regions would invent their own slangs based on the "native language of the region". Borrowing loanwords from their parent language and creating various dialects of Esperanto that may or may not be understandable with other dialects to varying degrees.
I highly recommend learning Esperanto to anyone interested in learning a second language - to use it as a springboard to your third.
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[ 132 ms ] story [ 4978 ms ] threadThis is bad advice. People grossly underestimate the effort to learn ONE language, never mind two related ones at the same time.
You will probably not succeed at learning a new language unless you have a pressing, extrinsic reason to. Self-study language courses have dropout rates north of 98%. Even in an educational setting with young people (better at learning languages than older ones), it's only about 20% who progress beyond the bare beginner stage.
Esperanto is MAYBE easy enough to learn from only curiosity and dedication... but I am aware that "eternaj komencantoj" is an expression in Esperanto-land.
If the goal is to be able to have a rough understanding and be able to make yourself understood, then I'm not so sure.
My French is passable, and it made picking up enough Italian, Spanish and Portuguese words that I can slowly work my way through many types of text in those languages a lot easier. Not least because my French teacher made a point of explaining how French vocabulary related to Spanish and English - just the habit of recognising which sounds are related in different languages helps tremendously in recognising words without having to explicitly learn them in each language. I don't use any of that much and certainly not enough to justify spending a lot of time learning to speak more languages flawlessly, but it's been helpful in many occasions.
If you speak English it's pretty easy to get the gist of both.
Interlingua
Folkspraak"Arika Okrent guessed in her book In the Land of Invented Languages that there might be 20–30 fluent [Klingon] speakers."[1]
"In 2009 Lu Wunsch-Rolshoven used 2001 year census data from Hungary and Lithuania as a base for an estimate, resulting in approximately 160,000 to 300,000 to speak [Esperanto] actively or fluently throughout the world, with about 80,000 to 150,000 of these being in the European Union."[2]
"As of 1996, there were 350 or so attested cases of families with native Esperanto speakers. Estimates from associations indicate that there are currently around 1,000 Esperanto-speaking families, involving perhaps 2,000 children. In all known cases, speakers are natively bilingual, or multilingual, raised in both Esperanto and either the local national language or the native language of their parents."[3]
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klingon_language#Speakers
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto#Number_of_speakers
[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Esperanto_speakers
I was impressed by sheer length of the list [2].
1 - http://www.slovio.com/ 2 - http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/constructed_slavic_language...
However, I'm not certain any secondary language can ever really become a universal language. Until there's direct economic force behind adoption, I see it as a hobby language. I am also not sure any constructed language can remain pure when it becomes popular. Languages, dialects, idioms etc. like to drift between isolated or semi-isolated groups. As communication and transportation become cheaper though, who knows how prevalent that will be in the future.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban
From: http://miresperanto.com/konkurentoj/not_my_favourite.htm
Esperanto seems to be a language built for easy adoption. The grammar and vocabulary seem to be a somewhat fair mixture of popular natural languages with the hope for easier adoption. A claim I've heard is that someone that knows Chinese or English would be able to communicate effectively in Esperanto in four months.
I see the goal of Lojban being different. Lojban's grammar is based on predicate logic with the intent being a syntactically unambiguous language. This makes it more like a programming language than a natural language.
The two bleed into each other often since Lojban's root-words are similar to those in popular natural languages and Esperanto is a constructed language with a simple grammar so it's naturally (artificially?) much more consistent than current spoken languages.
I just think Lojban's goal is more interesting than Esperanto's despite honestly feeling like Esperanto is better suited to be a natural language replacement. Esperanto certainly has more resources and support.
I'm no linguist and I've only superficially researched either so spare me if I'm being unintentionally disingenuous to either camp or misinterpreted their claims.
[1] http://www.zompist.com/kitespo.html
[2] http://jbr.me.uk/ranto/hh.html
[3] http://jbr.me.uk/ranto/#d
Ithkuil's goals seem very different than those of Lojban/Esperanto.
Edit: I don't like Ithkuil's numbering system. Ithkuil uses base 100 for numbers for some reason. I think base16 or even 12 seems more logical/divisible/memorable. Lojban is base seems to be base16.
There are words for numerals from 0 to F, but the default base is 10. You override that by explicitly saying another base, or using numerals A-F .
Sources:
Lojban numbers https://lojban.github.io/cll/18/2/
Non-decimal and compound bases. Says nothing about base 16 being assumed when using hex digits. https://lojban.github.io/cll/18/10/
If you use A-F, your listener/reader can assume base 16: https://mw.lojban.org/papri/Lojban_Wave_Lessons#Lojban_Lesso...
IMO it's pointless to try and debate the design of esperanto, or any other forced language. Because it's just that, it's forced. I just don't believe you can force a language on people.
Languages are as naturally ocurring as anything else in nature. They evolve organically. If we were hypothetically able to force esperanto on a part of the populace then that very same populace would evolve the language and the wordlists would be rewritten by the people introducing new words.
Forcing English on large parts of the world seems to have worked very well. ;)
[EDIT] The idea is not to replace natural languages, but to pick an extra non-natural language as an international one
That seems like a horrible idea. When the lingua franca is some common natively spoken language at least people who can confidently correct you exist.
Having everyone speak a non-native language would just lead to a regression towards the mean, and such a language would be much harder to learn than any existing language because it wouldn't come with a culture. There would be very few books, movies etc. in that language.
I'm sure you're as aware as I am why English is the current lingua franca. It's mostly a historical accident, and it's what we've got.
Whether the lingua franca might be English, Chinese or whatever is unrelated to your initial comment, which is what I was replying to.
There you were proposing that everyone should learn some artificial language for international communication. I think this is a bad idea for the reasons I stated above.
Now instead of defending your argument that we should all use some constructed language you're off on a digression about why English and not Chinese, both of which are natural languages.
My argument is that to learn and master a natural language will take years —and even with a lot of effort— you will probably not master it. Which makes English an elitist skill. Should the international language be an elitist thing? No, it should not. If your mother tongue is a Germanic one then you will find English quite easy. Otherwise not.
Non natural languages like esperanto are easier to learn and master. In a couple of months you are used to them.
Let's say that there was such a meeting and "we" all decided that we're going to speak Klingon or whatever as a lingua franca. How do you think that would work? People wouldn't care what the decreed language is, maybe you'd have UN meetings in it, pass laws to teach it in school in lots of nations or something.
It would probably become even more of an elitist skill than just using a language that already has lots of native and non-native speakers already and lots of culture to go along with it, just like Latin was back when we effectively had this sort of arrangement, sans the constructed language.
Finally, if you really haven't heard a better reason for why English became the current dominant language than "it's already spoken by X people, but how come not Chinese and Spanish" you really owe it to yourself to read some of the things that come up when you Google the likes of "history of lingua franca" etc.
In such countries, when you want to learn english —and you do not have a lot of money— your best deal is to travel to UK and get a crappy job so you can learn the language.
If instead of a natural language they got taught a non natural one, they will not need to that, because one of their advantages is that you get them really fast.
I didn't grow up with dubbed movies, and I think it helped by language skills immensely.
Plenty of people learn English a near-native level without living in a natively English speaking country. I did, just watch some TV (not dubbed) and read lots of books (not translated). I guess, maybe, but really this is never going to happen, we might as well fantasize over how easy it would be if we did away with this whole communication via sound waves fad, and just all learned the same sign language instead.We live in an increasingly globalized world, English is the de-facto world language by sheer inertia. States that don't have it as a native language that aren't teaching their children it at a native level are at a distinct disadvantage.
We are 7 billion people. 200 million speak english as a secondary language and 300/400 million as main language. With this numbers, don't you think that it will be better to find a language that is fine for everybody? Or when someone wants get into the international arena he/she must to learn English which will take years?
Where did you get that number? The sources I've seen are 1+ billion
I'm not saying everyone should speak english. But it seems if things carry on the way they are, everyone will speak english, even if it isn't the best "choice"
Even when the nobility spoke French and latin in britain, the people still developed their own english.
It's impossible to impose a language on a free population.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not
What about all of the American continent?
Esperanto and other conlangs are more an extreme case, but there's surprisingly little that's "natural" about the "natural" languages either.
The drive for unification in Italy was big in 1800. The language a unified Italy would speak was decided long before because poets and writers already standardized on one of the language of Tuscany, the one of Florence. That was the "standard Italian" since 1200. Not that many people spoke it. Everybody spoke the language of it's area, sometimes not. All those languages derived from Latin but people could not easily understand each other, especially over long distances (even 30 km.) Only priests and literates had lingua francas, Latin and standard Italian.
Some samples from famous authors:
Ariosto, 1500, can be read quite easily nowadays [1]
Petrarca, 1300, is a little more difficult and it takes a little to get accustomed with. [2]
Dante, 1200, is also difficult sometimes but high school students read it with little help. [3]
[1] http://www.orlandofurioso.com/testo-completo-dei-canti/1706/...
[2] http://www.italica.it/canzoniere.html
[3] http://www.filosofico.net/ladivinacommedia.htm
Dante is usually credited for having chosen the Tuscany/Florence dialect to be the future Italian, later adopted by many writers and poets (that also contributed to the evolution of the language), so yes, I wouldn't say it is artificial at all, maybe the only artificial thing is the choice of a dialect over another.
And as I guess many already know many of the regional dialects survived, and in some regions more than others are still spoken. In fact an Italian is often bilingual in a sense. And if you happen to be in a book store in Italy it is not at all that rare to find a book from a contemporary author written in his local dialect.
BTW we study all of the three authors you mentioned at school ... not an easy task I assure you :P
Both are constructed, and not just bits and pieces, though they were constructed from "natural" elements.
Bokmål came into being through a series of drastic reforms of a combination of Danish (which was the administrative language until the dissolution of the union with Denmark in 1814) and urban Norwegian dialects, which were heavily influenced by Danish.
The reforms were aimed at removing a lot of the Danish influence, and continued well into the 20th century (well, in a sense they are still continuing, though making Bokmål less Danish is no longer an explicit goal). Many of the changes took decades to take root as most adults didn't really change but school children were taught and graded on the new forms.
E.g. the change from Danish word-order in numbers ("fireogtyve" - 24 - "fire-og-tyve = four and twenty") to uniformity with less formal spoken Norwegian dialects ("tjuefire" - "twentyfour") is one that was still for all intents ongoing at least well into the 80's (you'll still find older people using the old forms today) despite being introduced by a language reform in 1951. My parents learned the new form in primary school in the late 50's yet still regularly reverted to the old form around me while I was growing up in 70's and 80's, and as a result I used to switch back and forth between the two at least into my 20s (in the 90's)
(Incidentally these reforms also means that for Norwegians learning German, spending some time reading old Norwegian books is highly helpful to get used to German word order and even recognizing vocabulary, as the reforms that moved Bokmål away from Danish also moved it further away from German)
Nynorsk, meanwhile, was explicitly created as a form of unification of a number of very different rural Norwegian dialects. This included synthesising a grammar, creating a bunch of new words that tried to find forms that were "close enough" to the widest possible range of dialects, and combining a lot of other elements from different dialects.
Bokmål is used as the written language of the vast majority, despite most spoken dialects probably in many ways being closer to Nynorsk (though more so in some parts of the country than others - Norwegian dialects are extremely varied). In some parts Bokmål - particularly spoken Bokmål - has a tendency to be seen as more refined, as a remnant of their historical origins. An unofficial dialect - Riksmål - is basically Bokmål sans a number of the reforms, and remains much closer to Danish. It sees very little use, though well into the 80's one of the largest conservative newspapers stuck to a lot of the Riksmål forms.
Bokmål and Nynorsk are mutually intelligible, and successive language reforms over more than a century have aimed to bring them closer (largely by creating optional forms of many words that are consider valid in both languages), but having to learn both is a frequent cause of discontent at Norwegian schools (it annoyed me immensely, because unlike most Norwegians I speak very close to pure Bokmål, and a relatively conservative form of it, as a legacy of my dads upbringing and reading a lot of old books growing up, which made Nynorsk harder)
While the reforms do take into account natural language shifts to some extent, large parts of the current modern structure of both languages was effectively created by academics.
Maybe I'm just an idiot, but I contest this :) I have an easier time understanding spoken Swedish (and written Danish) than Nynorsk. I think unless you grew up in an area with a dialect very similar to it, or had it drilled into your head in school, it's basically a foreign language.
Context: I speak Bøkmål and Trøndersk (for you non-Norwegians, that's the regional dialect in the greater Trondheim area), and was raised primarily abroad, though we primarily spoke Norwegian at home.
Trøndelag used to be a Nynorsk core area, by the way. Around 1940, half the population there used Nynorsk.
Simplified Characters are another example. A lot of the simplifications had been around for a very long time, so they existed as part of a natural language, but saying, X is traditional, Y is simplified, and standardizing the simplified version, is fundamentally the act of language construction. [The lack of such a deep history is probably why https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_round_of_simplified_Chi... never caught on.]
Whether a target language is easy to pronounce depends on your native language (and other languages you can pronounce accurately). If you're a native Chinese speaker (whichever variety, but particularly Mandarin), English isn't anything like as difficult as French to pronounce.
There are plenty of studies of consonant and vowel frequencies in human languages. We know, for instance, that [p] [t] [k] are found in virtually all languages, that most languages have at least one liquid, one nasal consonant (which can be realised as [n], [m] or [ŋ] depending the position of the consonant that follows it is). Most languages also have [ʔ], but you never notice it as most only allow it initially and exclude it when spelling: if you were to choose any word in English beginning with a vowel in isolation, you will almost certainly start it with a glottal stop.
As far as vowels go, the classical five-vowel system is very prevalent: some approximation of it is used in lots of languages, and there are very few languages that use simpler systems, though Modern Standard Arabic, with its three-vowel system ([a], [i], [u]) is a widely-spoken counterexample. If you wanted to include more consonant clusters, you could add schwa as a epithetic vowel: in our hypothetical language, the word _plum_ could be phonemically /plum/, but phonetically [pəlum] for speakers who have difficulty with that initial consonant cluster.
Still, knowing what sounds people can pronounce is only half the battle: a good IAL would also have well designed _phonotactics_. That's a bit of a rabbit hole though!
See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaedeutic_value_of_Espera...
A part of my experience is that people start with grossly inefficient methods to speak foreign languages. Spend way too much time. Discard it as too difficult or not worth it.
Another part of my experience is that speaking a foreign languages is actually totally doable. We human beings are naturally skilled at it.
So what about esperanto? (One my languages).
There is still this misconception (also in this comments section) that it had the goal to do to existing languages what the euro did to existing currencies. That would have been silly, fortunately it has been a non-goal from the start.
What makes much more sense is that since it has a much nicer learning curve, young people and monoglots can use it as a testbed to get how to learn a language. Then reach much quicker a level where they can have a casual conversation in that or those other languages they are interested in.
That strategy work actually quite well, but require a non-conformist mind. People have a malthusian approach to language learning and _will_ tell you that you are just being silly.
To use a hacker's analogy, learning a natural language is like learning C++, and learning Esperanto is like learning a scripting language like Ruby or Python.
For practical value for a language learner, incentives matter. People respond to incentives in deciding which languages to learn, and how attentive to be to opportunities to learn languages. And more opportunity to learn, with more sound recordings to listen to and more texts to read, makes it easier to learn a language. The pervasiveness of English all over the world makes English an easy language to learn--I'm not kidding. Precisely because hundreds of millions of people use English every day as an "interlanguage," English is quite "fault tolerant," full of social conventions about how to get around people with a beginning command of the language communicating with one another, including officially adopted controlled vocabularies for occupations like seafaring.[2] (Again, Modern Standard Chinese is similar in that poorly pronounced Mandarin Chinese is an actual lingua franca in many parts of southern China.) English-language daily newspapers abound all over the world, English-language videos number in the millions on YouTube, many recorded by second-language speakers of English, and English-language books and advertisements make up the plurality of the world's books and advertisements.
Languages spread around the world mostly by people using them or not for practical purposes. The majority of the settlement of the interior of North America by Europeans was done by Europeans who were not native speakers of English. (For example, both of my maternal grandparents, both of whom were born in Great Plains states, grew up in German-speaking families and had all of their schooling in the German language.) The freedom of the United States included a freedom to speak whatever language people pleased. (Abraham Lincoln funded German-language newspapers to help his presidential campaign, and Theodore Roosevelt campaigned in English, German, and French, the three languages he knew from childhood, in various places in the United States.) English was the customary language of governance in the United States, and still is not official at the federal level, but mostly English won out in the world's third most populous country because it was a common language that immigrants from a variety of places could use to communicate with one another (as happened in my paternal ancestral line). The huge population base of native speakers of English (in the following generations) in the United States who still had family ties to other countries provides English with a great advantage in spreading around the world.
Another way to treat Esperanto is to take it as a hobby, an exploration of t...
I will never learn more than the basics in Armenian or Slovene or Finnish, but I make use of Esperanto to get to know about the history, economy and the legal systems of countries I visit.
The easy part would be to develop a set of tweaks to the more-arcane grammatical- and spelling rules of English, using crowd-sourced suggestions. For example --- and as a language purist it pains me deeply to say this:
+ Allow they and their (and even there) to be used as singular generic pronouns; so, for example, Any student can learn to speak English if they put there mind to it.
+ Allow there to be used as a possessive (vice their).
+ Allow consistent apostrophes for possessives; so, for example, The spread of English is hindered by some of it's fussy rules (which in currently-standard usage is incorrect).
This might be a useful project for someone working in linguistics: Collect and organize real-world examples of how people actually use English in non-standard ways, then propose a subset of those examples as MVE.
The hard part would be convincing the world that it's just as socially acceptable to speak and write MVE as it is to speak and write "standard" English.
Languages naturally change over time as the population invents slangs and irregulars, typically out of laziness. Certain vowels will be mixed or slurred, parts of words might change entirely, etc.
Even if Esperanto was taught to every individual as a second language - various regions would invent their own slangs based on the "native language of the region". Borrowing loanwords from their parent language and creating various dialects of Esperanto that may or may not be understandable with other dialects to varying degrees.
I highly recommend learning Esperanto to anyone interested in learning a second language - to use it as a springboard to your third.