After reading the NYT's obit for him, all I can think of is, wow, what a full life and long journey. Being born after his competitive career, all I mostly hear about is how he was "The Greatest", but not so much about his losses and his comebacks.
Damn...whenever I watch boxing movies like Rocky, I always think the action and power look so fake compared to what you normally see when watching broadcast boxing fights. But I guess if you grew up watching videos of Ali, you'd have a higher expectation of razzle-dazzle.
I wonder if is now ingrained in boxing training to move like that -- no one notices a big difference like they did with Ali because everyone is trained to move like that. Looking back through the videos I have to think that none of the heavyweight boxers move like that today. I wonder if there will be a renaissance in boxing where you have a whole generation of boxers moving like Ali. Does anyone follow boxing? Can anyone comment on how Ali influenced the state of boxing generations later?
I would imagine it's something that worked at the time, because it successfully exploited the slow, static movement of his opponents, but today it's probably "priced in" as a possibility with known correct countering, so that people don't actually use it anymore. Like a rare chess opening that was once used successfully until people figured out how to deal with it later in the game.
Sadly, boxing as a sport has much declined since Ali's day, and especially in recent years. In particular, the heavyweight division has been found most acutely lacking for some time.
However, you are correct that heavyweights don't and have not typically "moved like that". Even those who were relatively fast and defensively gifted (e.g. a young Tyson) didn't move as poetically.
He moved like a boxer of a much lower weight class and, beyond even that, he moved like Ali. Graceful. Fluid. Quick. Rhythmic. Instinctive. Check out some of his highlights on YouTube. There are entire sequences during which he defied opponents to hit him through head/upper body movement alone. Hands are low and movement is so fast and well-timed that it seems to predict his opponent's next move. It's as if he is training his opponent to punch wherever he moves his head, and his opponent is reacting to him vs. the other way around.
And, this is to say nothing of his footwork. He glided without effort and the mechansim by which he changed direction was almost imperceptible. It seemed that he was being guided on a wire versus using his legs. Back then, it was amazing to see a man his size (or any) move like that, and it would be just as much so today.
At 1:21 and 1:35, Ali does this shuffle thing with his feet.
How does one do that? I just tried it, and I can't imagine how I would move my feet that rapidly even with extensive training. I'm pretty lanky. Would it be easier to foot-shuffle if I had Ali's build? Or would it be even harder because of his mass.
And does this maneuver have a name? It seems like he does it when he's winding up for a jab combo. To make his punches unpredictable. Am I reading his movements correctly?
One thing people underestimate about boxing is how much training goes into the feet movement. Any boxer at that level can do things with their feet that is pretty baffling. Training your feet and calfs in boxing is extensive. That said one of the things that made Ali so astounding is that for a big guy he was super light on his feet.
That foot shuffle doesn't have a name, and he isn't doing it for a tactical advantage. He's showing off. Nearly anyone else on the planet who tried it would have a coach in there ear ripping them a new one. But you know, the greatest of all time gets to do things others can't.
Oh, I do think the shuffle had tactical advantages beyond showing off. It's demoralizing to the opponent, it serves as a distraction, and it's so unorthodox that it momentarily leaves opponents wondering what's coming next. He frequently threw (and landed) off of a shuffle, even if not to devastating effect.
But, I agree that it would drive most trainers nuts for any other boxer. And, yeah, Ali's gifts and confidence made it possible for him to get away with a lot of the kind of stuff that would drive trainers crazy (including Dundee early on). For, instance, consistently carrying his hands so low violated a Golden Rule of boxing and keeping the hands up is one of the first things kids are taught about the sport.
Later, he fashioned the rope a dope and other techniques to compensate for his then diminished speed.
Kind of reminds me of Bruce Lee. Improvise. Create. Take what your opponent gives you.
Yeah, he made the "Ali Shuffle" look easy! He was one of those people who seemed almost "engineered" for a specific sport. I'm no kinesiologist, but I'm guessing the secret to his speed--including that shuffle--was related to insanely tuned fast-twitch muscle fibers.
It's the same muscle fiber type that provides the explosive power and acceleration that give many basketball players their impressive vertical leaping abilities.
These muscles can also be further developed to some extent, and he was also a really hard worker. Amazingly, he later declared that he hated every second of his training, but knew it's what he had to do.
Boxing is in a bit of a vicious cycle and has been for some time. During Ali's prime boxing was more popular generally. It was a mainstream sport that lots of people watched. It was also going through a golden era with regard to talent especially at the heavy weight level. There was Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Liston all fighting at the same time which of course amplified the popularity.
Now boxing doesn't have any of the all time greats boxing and its less popular, meaning its unlikely to have greats start boxing again. Add in how much less acceptable head injuries are in sports, the decline of youth boxing in the USA and the rise of MMA and it is unlikely we will see boxing be anything more than it is now, an occasional big fight for a couple of top contenders and not a lot else that makes it into the general mainstream.
As for moving like that, part of it is that bigger guys more generally move better than they used to so the difference isn't as pronounced but its also Ali being special.
I wonder if the drop in popularity has to do with title bouts moving to pay per view. I've never been interested enough to pay to watch but if it was on network, I probably would have...
Steroids were legal and veeery prevalent during these days. They increase athletes endurance and ability to take blows immensely. Boxers could get flash knocked down multiple times and still come back and win the fight. Fights like Ali vs Foreman and a lot of other fights considered best of the century are just impossible without steroids.
Can any boxing expert explain how he can be that fast? Is it a practice + muscle memory + probablistic decision or is his reaction time that good? Is he anticipating the punches or reacting to them individually?
I'm not a boxing expert, so take this with a pinch of salt. But I expect he uses the same techniques that Bruce Lee advocated in Jeet Kune Do [1], which is about looking for the tiny trigger movements of your opponent and reacting before they've even started really moving (if you look in that video, he sometimes moves out of the way of a punch that doesn't come); probably combined with selling the opponent a 'dummy' to tempt them into making a known move.
If you are relaxed and trained you can dodge the punches because it takes time for them to reach you.
You really have to be aware of what is happening though, it's hard to learn not to flinch/close your eyes when the hand is flying to you. But if you are completely relaxed and see it coming, with good footwork and balance you can dodge many of them. You don't actually have to move your head that much, it's just the tiniest distance that will take you away from the trajectory of the punch. The thing with punches is that once you throw a punch, you can't really change its direction or it will lose most of the momentum and speed... That's why it's possible to dodge them, because they fly into particular spot and you can just move away.
It's important because it lets you counter instantly. You can only really hit somebody when they are exposed, meaning not holding the guard - so when they are punching. If you were to block the punch with your hands, you couldn't react as quickly because your hands wouldn't be in the ready position. It's really good skill to have but takes years and years of practice to develop.
Sad day. A video that probably won't be played very often, but might be special to this crowd: a 1997 Apple commercial staring The Greatest, during their Think Different campaign.
You can see the clever Ali blend in with the local population, winning their hearts and their cheers. Ali won the combeback fight against the younger, much stronger Foreman in a way nobody had predicted, leaning into the ropes and taking a lot of beating to his upper body, while giving short, fast hits on Foremans head. After 2/3 of the fight Foreman was completely out of fuel and Ali gave him one legendary, sudden last punch, and the giant tumbled down.
He was a really smart dude. The way he marketed himself was I think the first of his kind.
Plus he won some of his fights even before stepping in through the ring by getting into his opponents head. Just imagine Ali going to your yard a few days before the match in the middle of the night with a loud speaker
Muhammad Ali was so popular in the 1970's that they made a (not so good) Saturday morning cartoon about him, back when most people were only watching 3 network TV channels.
A sad day. He was an inspiration for American youth for 3 decades and being a 3 time heavy weight champion when he was active. RIP, the world has lost a champion
Muhammad Ali is something we won't allow public figures to be anymore. Being outspoken and standing up for his beliefs, against all repercussions, were his his greatest feat(s). I hope, over all else, his contributions to the human spirit reign over the rest of us. We need another (dozen) Cassius Clays.
Nobody allowed him to be this at the time either. It was not easier in any way. He just had the gut to do it.
In France we had some old celebrity known for their very funny yet inapropriate one man show. Everybody said that he would not be able to do the same today. Well, all his friends responded, at the time neither. He got sued. Threaten. Physically and financially attacked.
Disruption is always hard. And eventually others benefit more from it than you do.
His words were met, in the media, with challenge. Having his words even echoed was a feat in and of itself. You or I could not replicate his feat as we don't have the stage. People hinged on his every word because of his prowess in a field people could understand. Guys like LeBron James and Michael Phelps are the only folks who could garner the same level of respect in the here and now, but the field has changed, there's too much money at risk...
People don't hinge on words (although their lives may); they hang on them. The idiom is "case in point", meaning "here is an example in furtherance of my argument."
Yes, that may seem like nitpicking, but whether it's fair and logical or not, people will at least partially base their assessment of your message (or argument, or what have you) on the language you use to convey it.
> Muhammad Ali is something we won't allow public figures to be anymore. Being outspoken and standing up for his beliefs, against all repercussions, were his his greatest feat(s).
What? You think current public figures are being prevented from being out spoken? Have you seen 50cent's twitter? Have you seen Donald Trump's? Lots of people are being out spoken, maybe more than I personally like, but whatever floats their boat.
There's a big difference between Trump's blowhard populism and Muhammad Ali's firm, unpopular beliefs. Trump says things with no filter, with utter disregard for their meaning, consequence, or congruence with the last thing he said. I respect him for having the guts to be stream of consciousness and throwing out each thought, but he's not, in any of his campaign, stating policy, but just this thought process.
Muhammad Ali had much to say. He was an outspoken civil rights supporter, anti draft activist, and convert to Islam, and a true believer in all those thoughts even when the majority of the country, even his fans, were against his positions. Hell, I'm against two of the three of those, and I still respect him enormously. He had a well spoken, eloquent, and coherent speaking style. He made you understand what his precepts were, how they shaped his philosophy, and he came to conclusions that you could respect. He wasn't simply outspoken, he was a good orator and a philosopher.
There's a great interview with him in The Kandy-Kolored Tangerine-Flake Streamline Baby. Tom Wolfe is not his intended audience, but is utterly enthralled. He comes across as genuine, progressive (in a meaning of that word that is positive), and concerned with his fellow man (if intending to be insular in parts of his philosophy.) He's no saint, but one of the most genuine people in the stardom limelight.
> My conscience won't let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America. And shoot them for what? They never called me nigger, they never lynched me, they didn't put no dogs on me, they didn't rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father... Shoot them for what? How can I shoot them poor people? Just take me to jail.
I'm not comparing Muhammad Ali to these people. I'm refuting that public people aren't allowed to be outspoken. Muhammad Ali maybe had more meaningful things to say and said them well but lots of public people are outspoken on all kinds of things.
People are talking about being firm in your beliefs and being outspoken about them, not being a troll on Twitter/Instagram (50 cent) or making purposefully incendiary comments (Trump)
Ali wasn't "allowed" anything. He lost his livelihood for roughly a third of his athletic prime for standing up for his beliefs. He faced constant racism and bigotry. He was viewed as a bad guy by most of the country for much of his early career. Many people even refused to call him Muhammad Ali including other African American boxers. He persevered and became popular through shear will, determination, charisma, and talent, not because anyone allowed him to be that way.
I think he's correct in the choice of the word "allowed" - yes, he had to fight for his beliefs, very hard fights, but he lived in a society that still valued individual struggle and determination, and that in the end rewarded it with success. Otherwise he couldn't have achieved what he has achieved. It's at least debatable if in today's softer world somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest would still be "allowed" to earn reputation that way. I would argue that competing for victimhood status has become the prevalent approved strategy rather than fighting for your cause.
>> "It's at least debatable if in today's softer world somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest would still be "allowed" to earn reputation that way."
I don't think it's debatable at all. Just look at Mayweather or Conor McGregor. Both spend most of their time telling everyone how great they are and people are fine with that, as long as, like Ali, they back it up with results.
"somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest would still be "allowed" to earn reputation that way"
Golden age fallacy?
Off the top of my head, here are few people who fit that description in various ways and who seem to be doing quite well, despite today's "softer world":
Donald Trump, Kanye West, Peter Thiel
Also, softer world? He faced constant death threats. Also: "Almost as quickly as Ali had arrived, his World Boxing Association heavyweight title was gone, revoked after he claimed conscientious objector status in refusing the draft. He also was stripped of his passport and all of his boxing licenses. He faced a five-year prison term after losing an initial court battle defending his objection to serving in a war that he called "despicable and unjust."
Ali lost the chance at tens of millions of dollars in endorsements while appealing his case to the U.S. Supreme Court."
Also, this idea of a "soft world" is contradictory. Your claim seems to be that back in the day, because things were less "soft", Ali was allowed to be more self expressive. Yet, it's precisely this "soft world" which promotes the kind of diversity which, for example, would make Ali's conversion to Islam far less of a controversial issue today.
I take offense to the idea of the "golden age fallacy".
Let's constrain fallacies to actual logical mistakes.
Some things actually have had a golden age -- e.g. for bebop it can be fairly accurately be told to be certain decades, and it's not wrong to point to that to say that things are not the same anymore.
(And even if individual outliers might produce an X equivalent to a "golden era of X" artifact, statistically it would still be true to say that now it's not like the golden era of X, if less such works are produced in total and even less consumed and appreciated -- e.g. if I make a great "Miami Bass" tune, it wont mean that the late eights weren't the "golden age" of Miami Bass).
In fact the golden age is so much not a fallacy, that is a valid historical construct (e.g. for Roman democracy the golden age was so and so centuries -- no ifs and buts about it).
>It's at least debatable if in today's softer world somebody who gets out and tells everybody that he's the greatest would still be "allowed" to earn reputation that way.
>but he lived in a society that still valued individual struggle and determination
If you believe throwing someone in Jail at the prime of his career, on top of other atrocities he fought through his career while he had to stand up for himself is "society valuing individual struggle and determination", then I believe you need to sit down and open a dictionary. This is some amazing revisionist history.
That's only because of his exceptional achievements. A normal human being, standing up for his beliefs in that period, would not have had the same treatment.
> Ali wasn't "allowed" anything. He lost his livelihood for roughly a third of his athletic prime for standing up for his beliefs. He faced constant racism and bigotry.
Joe Frazier supported Ali financially when he was unable to box and supported the restoration of Ali's licence.
"The greatest" [sic], who for reasons you have stated should have been more aware than most about racism and abuse, paid back this great friend who supported him while others persecuted him in the most foul, racist ways (Ali had links to the KKK and gave at least one speech to a KKK rally), calling Frazier an "Uncle Tom" and a "gorilla".
This post obviously won't go down well with Ali fanboys who only accept the hype and mythology and who don't want unfortunate facts about Ali getting any wider exposure, but Ali's reprehensible treatment of Frazier was so egregiously appalling - even had Frazier not been such a decent and loyal supporter of Ali - it should not be hidden, forgotten or excused, any more than the persecution Ali faced should be.
Anyone who hasn't seen it should check out HBO's brilliant documentary from a few years back, centred around the Thrilla in Manila. It's on Youtube:
From the same article, "One of Ali's greatest regrets — and he said as much — is that he never patched things up with Malcolm, that he never told Malcolm how important he was to him."
His regrets after Malcom X was dead were warranted, and doesn't excuse his betrayal. What matters is how you treat someone when they're alive, not what your sentiments are after their death.
It's been several years since I read Malcolm X's autobiography, but he did specifically talk about his relationship with Ali and what happened, which was the real basis of my comment. Malcolm's depiction of the events is much more negative from my recollection. I just provided the above link instead, since I wasn't able to find an excerpt from the book.
Not sure why my previous comment was voted down, given that it was both true and on topic. I can only assume someone would prefer to keep their hero on a pedestal rather than admit everyone has their flaws.
Same reason mine was. Tedious and predictable Ali fanboys.
It's really nice that he finally got around to expressing some kind of weak regret decades after the event - as if the only reason he didn't apologise at the time was Malcolm got himself killed just before he could do so ("he was killed before I got the chance").
The reality is Ali spent a decade after Malcolm's death fully endorsing and promoting the very organisation that murdered him (after they'd found their replacement mouthpiece, from a sport they had zero respect for, and prior to Ali had zero time for).
What I mean is that the only known way to produce a Muhammad Ali is to start with a Cassius Clay, even though there is an important distinction between them.
Can you imagine the repercussions today for a sportsman or woman who said something like[0]:
"no intelligent white person watching this show, or no intelligent white man in his or her right white mind, want black boys and black girls marrying their white sons and daughters, and in return introducing their grandchildren as half brown, kinky haired black people"
"It ain’t sad because I want my child to look like me, every intelligent person wants their child to look like them, I’m sad because I want to blot out my race and lose my identity? Chinese love Chinese they love the little slanty eye, pretty brown skin babies. Pakistani love their culture, Jewish people love their culture, a lot of catholic wanna be with Catholics and want the religion to stay the same… who would want to spot up yourself and kill your race? You’re a hater of your people if you don’t want to stay who you are. You ashamed of what god made you? You think he made a mistake when he made you?"
The saddest thing about Ali's life IMHO is that he lived in a world where the best way he could make his living was hitting and being hit by others. It is time to recognize boxing for the barbarism that it is and retire it from the repertoire of human activity along with bullfighting and bear baiting.
I agree that OPs point is not necessary and his analogy with animal murder is plain wrong, but the definition of barbarism does not hinge on the existence of consent. Brutal, uncivilized, or cruel imply barbarism. Consent does not imply non-brutal and civilized and uncruel.
Sorry, I was sloppy with language just to riff on his words. Of course you are right. I wanted get at the subtext of boxing being exploitative, in particular where it is comparable to something like bullfighting. Are we really aiming for a non contact world because some people see it as primitive and cruel? That's what comments like OP's make me think. Go after unscrupulous managers or the long term injury aspect, but I just don't see the problem with fighting sports where everyone is opting in and aware.
In retrospect, I realize I should have said that it is time to retire professional boxing, not boxing in general, but it's too late to edit my original comment. Amateur boxing, where protective head gear is worn and the object is not to render your opponent unconscious, is fine with me. What makes professional boxing barbaric IMHO is that it is designed to maximize the possibility that the participants will get injured. The goal in professional boxing is to render your opponent unconscious. That is IMHO barbaric.
The barbarism in bull fighting and bear baiting lies not in the animal's absence of consent. Animals don't consent to be eaten, but eating animals is [EDIT] not generally considered barbaric. What makes boxing and bull fighting and bear baiting barbaric is the fact that the object of the game is to inflict pain on another living being. Many other sports have pain as a consequence (football, rugby), but in boxing the goal is to inflict pain. The more pain the better. The ideal outcome is to render your opponent unconscious. That, IMHO, is barbaric.
Money and social constraints also significantly distort the matter of consent. Muhammed Ali was a black man living in an age of discrimination. His professional prospects were limited more by the color of his skin than by the content of his character. I think he was capable of a lot more than bashing people's skulls in. But because society places so much value on bashing people's skulls in, we will never know.
That's a minority view. Most people think it's OK as long as the animal is raised and slaughtered humanely. I edited my comment to make it a little more precise.
For as beautiful as it was to watch him box, it is even more beautiful to watch him and Howard Cosell interact. The two of them were a pair, and Cosell was one of the first if not the first to acknowledge his name change. Cosell also stood by him when he decided to be a conscientious objector.
To make America the greatest is my goal, so I beat the Russian and I beat the Pole. And for the USA won the medal of gold. The Greeks said you're better than the Cassius of old.' - He said this quote after he won the Olympic light-heavyweight gold medal at the 1960 Games in Rome
Pretty amazing for an 18 year old .. if a bit Trump-like.
It's all about perspective. Trump should jump on this because in spirit they're alike; at least when it comes to a duty to succeed as a nation by vanquishing others with competitive success.
It lasts only 8 minutes. The opponent is clearly a slugger who is baffled by Ali's style. Ali moves very fast, and fights with his gloves down. I'm not a fan of boxing, but she's right, that fight is an amazing spectacle.
I don't think any athlete will ever match Ali's impact. He could get into see anybody. The US State department used him as back door conduit to pass messages.
He was a big fan of basketball. He had a house outside Benton Harbor on Lake Michigan is the southwest part of the state near Indiana. Someone passed word to the coach of the Michigan State Spartans that Ali was a fan of the team. Coach Izzo arranged for him to attend a game each year.
If you want to understand Ali's genius then I highly recommend When We Were Kings, an Oscar-winning documentary about Ali's 'Rumble in the Jungle'.
After watching it, I finally understood that he wasn't just another athlete with a big ego and mouth, but a brilliant, courageous competitor, far beyond the rest.
I remember him receiving an honorary doctorate degree on stage during my own college graduation. He was shaking from Parkinson's, helped by his daughter, but looked strong. This was 9 years and 3 days ago.
I met him briefly in 1991 but will never forget. A man in the history books now and forever. I shall look up to the sky and smile. I'm sure he is resting in peace.
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[ 4.0 ms ] story [ 236 ms ] threadhttp://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/04/sports/muhammad-ali-dies.h...
His speed, footwork, and power is just incredible.
However, you are correct that heavyweights don't and have not typically "moved like that". Even those who were relatively fast and defensively gifted (e.g. a young Tyson) didn't move as poetically.
He moved like a boxer of a much lower weight class and, beyond even that, he moved like Ali. Graceful. Fluid. Quick. Rhythmic. Instinctive. Check out some of his highlights on YouTube. There are entire sequences during which he defied opponents to hit him through head/upper body movement alone. Hands are low and movement is so fast and well-timed that it seems to predict his opponent's next move. It's as if he is training his opponent to punch wherever he moves his head, and his opponent is reacting to him vs. the other way around.
And, this is to say nothing of his footwork. He glided without effort and the mechansim by which he changed direction was almost imperceptible. It seemed that he was being guided on a wire versus using his legs. Back then, it was amazing to see a man his size (or any) move like that, and it would be just as much so today.
How does one do that? I just tried it, and I can't imagine how I would move my feet that rapidly even with extensive training. I'm pretty lanky. Would it be easier to foot-shuffle if I had Ali's build? Or would it be even harder because of his mass.
And does this maneuver have a name? It seems like he does it when he's winding up for a jab combo. To make his punches unpredictable. Am I reading his movements correctly?
That foot shuffle doesn't have a name, and he isn't doing it for a tactical advantage. He's showing off. Nearly anyone else on the planet who tried it would have a coach in there ear ripping them a new one. But you know, the greatest of all time gets to do things others can't.
But, I agree that it would drive most trainers nuts for any other boxer. And, yeah, Ali's gifts and confidence made it possible for him to get away with a lot of the kind of stuff that would drive trainers crazy (including Dundee early on). For, instance, consistently carrying his hands so low violated a Golden Rule of boxing and keeping the hands up is one of the first things kids are taught about the sport.
Later, he fashioned the rope a dope and other techniques to compensate for his then diminished speed.
Kind of reminds me of Bruce Lee. Improvise. Create. Take what your opponent gives you.
It's the same muscle fiber type that provides the explosive power and acceleration that give many basketball players their impressive vertical leaping abilities.
These muscles can also be further developed to some extent, and he was also a really hard worker. Amazingly, he later declared that he hated every second of his training, but knew it's what he had to do.
Now boxing doesn't have any of the all time greats boxing and its less popular, meaning its unlikely to have greats start boxing again. Add in how much less acceptable head injuries are in sports, the decline of youth boxing in the USA and the rise of MMA and it is unlikely we will see boxing be anything more than it is now, an occasional big fight for a couple of top contenders and not a lot else that makes it into the general mainstream.
As for moving like that, part of it is that bigger guys more generally move better than they used to so the difference isn't as pronounced but its also Ali being special.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeet_Kune_Do
You really have to be aware of what is happening though, it's hard to learn not to flinch/close your eyes when the hand is flying to you. But if you are completely relaxed and see it coming, with good footwork and balance you can dodge many of them. You don't actually have to move your head that much, it's just the tiniest distance that will take you away from the trajectory of the punch. The thing with punches is that once you throw a punch, you can't really change its direction or it will lose most of the momentum and speed... That's why it's possible to dodge them, because they fly into particular spot and you can just move away.
It's important because it lets you counter instantly. You can only really hit somebody when they are exposed, meaning not holding the guard - so when they are punching. If you were to block the punch with your hands, you couldn't react as quickly because your hands wouldn't be in the ready position. It's really good skill to have but takes years and years of practice to develop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n83xzu2xH-E
The video was created to poke fun at Michael Dell, when Dell was being "rude", as Jobs put it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hq0Ny1WgFs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_We_Were_Kings
It's a great documentary.
It shows Ali and Foreman in preparation for their fight in Zaire/Congo (the famous 'rumble in the jungle' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rumble_in_the_Jungle).
You can see the clever Ali blend in with the local population, winning their hearts and their cheers. Ali won the combeback fight against the younger, much stronger Foreman in a way nobody had predicted, leaning into the ropes and taking a lot of beating to his upper body, while giving short, fast hits on Foremans head. After 2/3 of the fight Foreman was completely out of fuel and Ali gave him one legendary, sudden last punch, and the giant tumbled down.
https://youtu.be/55AasOJZzDE?t=21m4s
Plus he won some of his fights even before stepping in through the ring by getting into his opponents head. Just imagine Ali going to your yard a few days before the match in the middle of the night with a loud speaker
http://neilleifer.com/gallery/muhammad-ali/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_the_Greatest:_The_Adven...
I remember watching a few of them:
https://youtu.be/9nKpmzQZa5w
In France we had some old celebrity known for their very funny yet inapropriate one man show. Everybody said that he would not be able to do the same today. Well, all his friends responded, at the time neither. He got sued. Threaten. Physically and financially attacked.
Disruption is always hard. And eventually others benefit more from it than you do.
His words were met, in the media, with challenge. Having his words even echoed was a feat in and of itself. You or I could not replicate his feat as we don't have the stage. People hinged on his every word because of his prowess in a field people could understand. Guys like LeBron James and Michael Phelps are the only folks who could garner the same level of respect in the here and now, but the field has changed, there's too much money at risk...
Case and point. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l35nC0jVNuk
Yes, that may seem like nitpicking, but whether it's fair and logical or not, people will at least partially base their assessment of your message (or argument, or what have you) on the language you use to convey it.
Who would that be ? I immediately thought about Desproges.
What? You think current public figures are being prevented from being out spoken? Have you seen 50cent's twitter? Have you seen Donald Trump's? Lots of people are being out spoken, maybe more than I personally like, but whatever floats their boat.
Muhammad Ali had much to say. He was an outspoken civil rights supporter, anti draft activist, and convert to Islam, and a true believer in all those thoughts even when the majority of the country, even his fans, were against his positions. Hell, I'm against two of the three of those, and I still respect him enormously. He had a well spoken, eloquent, and coherent speaking style. He made you understand what his precepts were, how they shaped his philosophy, and he came to conclusions that you could respect. He wasn't simply outspoken, he was a good orator and a philosopher.
There's a great interview with him in The Kandy-Kolored Tangerine-Flake Streamline Baby. Tom Wolfe is not his intended audience, but is utterly enthralled. He comes across as genuine, progressive (in a meaning of that word that is positive), and concerned with his fellow man (if intending to be insular in parts of his philosophy.) He's no saint, but one of the most genuine people in the stardom limelight.
> My conscience won't let me go shoot my brother, or some darker people, or some poor hungry people in the mud for big powerful America. And shoot them for what? They never called me nigger, they never lynched me, they didn't put no dogs on me, they didn't rob me of my nationality, rape and kill my mother and father... Shoot them for what? How can I shoot them poor people? Just take me to jail.
I don't think it's debatable at all. Just look at Mayweather or Conor McGregor. Both spend most of their time telling everyone how great they are and people are fine with that, as long as, like Ali, they back it up with results.
Golden age fallacy?
Off the top of my head, here are few people who fit that description in various ways and who seem to be doing quite well, despite today's "softer world":
Donald Trump, Kanye West, Peter Thiel
Also, softer world? He faced constant death threats. Also: "Almost as quickly as Ali had arrived, his World Boxing Association heavyweight title was gone, revoked after he claimed conscientious objector status in refusing the draft. He also was stripped of his passport and all of his boxing licenses. He faced a five-year prison term after losing an initial court battle defending his objection to serving in a war that he called "despicable and unjust." Ali lost the chance at tens of millions of dollars in endorsements while appealing his case to the U.S. Supreme Court."
Also, this idea of a "soft world" is contradictory. Your claim seems to be that back in the day, because things were less "soft", Ali was allowed to be more self expressive. Yet, it's precisely this "soft world" which promotes the kind of diversity which, for example, would make Ali's conversion to Islam far less of a controversial issue today.
I take offense to the idea of the "golden age fallacy".
Let's constrain fallacies to actual logical mistakes.
Some things actually have had a golden age -- e.g. for bebop it can be fairly accurately be told to be certain decades, and it's not wrong to point to that to say that things are not the same anymore.
(And even if individual outliers might produce an X equivalent to a "golden era of X" artifact, statistically it would still be true to say that now it's not like the golden era of X, if less such works are produced in total and even less consumed and appreciated -- e.g. if I make a great "Miami Bass" tune, it wont mean that the late eights weren't the "golden age" of Miami Bass).
In fact the golden age is so much not a fallacy, that is a valid historical construct (e.g. for Roman democracy the golden age was so and so centuries -- no ifs and buts about it).
That doesn't mean it's false.
> Roman democracy the golden age was so and so centuries -- no ifs and buts about it
Historiography is always changing.
So like Kanye West?
If you believe throwing someone in Jail at the prime of his career, on top of other atrocities he fought through his career while he had to stand up for himself is "society valuing individual struggle and determination", then I believe you need to sit down and open a dictionary. This is some amazing revisionist history.
Joe Frazier supported Ali financially when he was unable to box and supported the restoration of Ali's licence.
"The greatest" [sic], who for reasons you have stated should have been more aware than most about racism and abuse, paid back this great friend who supported him while others persecuted him in the most foul, racist ways (Ali had links to the KKK and gave at least one speech to a KKK rally), calling Frazier an "Uncle Tom" and a "gorilla".
This post obviously won't go down well with Ali fanboys who only accept the hype and mythology and who don't want unfortunate facts about Ali getting any wider exposure, but Ali's reprehensible treatment of Frazier was so egregiously appalling - even had Frazier not been such a decent and loyal supporter of Ali - it should not be hidden, forgotten or excused, any more than the persecution Ali faced should be.
Anyone who hasn't seen it should check out HBO's brilliant documentary from a few years back, centred around the Thrilla in Manila. It's on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUQNKb_1xlc
http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2016/02/25/467247668/...
It's been several years since I read Malcolm X's autobiography, but he did specifically talk about his relationship with Ali and what happened, which was the real basis of my comment. Malcolm's depiction of the events is much more negative from my recollection. I just provided the above link instead, since I wasn't able to find an excerpt from the book.
Not sure why my previous comment was voted down, given that it was both true and on topic. I can only assume someone would prefer to keep their hero on a pedestal rather than admit everyone has their flaws.
Same reason mine was. Tedious and predictable Ali fanboys.
It's really nice that he finally got around to expressing some kind of weak regret decades after the event - as if the only reason he didn't apologise at the time was Malcolm got himself killed just before he could do so ("he was killed before I got the chance").
The reality is Ali spent a decade after Malcolm's death fully endorsing and promoting the very organisation that murdered him (after they'd found their replacement mouthpiece, from a sport they had zero respect for, and prior to Ali had zero time for).
And yet you call him by a name he himself changed and hated.
"no intelligent white person watching this show, or no intelligent white man in his or her right white mind, want black boys and black girls marrying their white sons and daughters, and in return introducing their grandchildren as half brown, kinky haired black people"
"It ain’t sad because I want my child to look like me, every intelligent person wants their child to look like them, I’m sad because I want to blot out my race and lose my identity? Chinese love Chinese they love the little slanty eye, pretty brown skin babies. Pakistani love their culture, Jewish people love their culture, a lot of catholic wanna be with Catholics and want the religion to stay the same… who would want to spot up yourself and kill your race? You’re a hater of your people if you don’t want to stay who you are. You ashamed of what god made you? You think he made a mistake when he made you?"
[0] From a 1971 interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1Y693cSF7E
http://www.nytimes.com/times-insider/author/margalit-fox/
The obit for Steve Jobs was initiated 4 years before his death.
Do you think this is OK?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumfights
The barbarism in bull fighting and bear baiting lies not in the animal's absence of consent. Animals don't consent to be eaten, but eating animals is [EDIT] not generally considered barbaric. What makes boxing and bull fighting and bear baiting barbaric is the fact that the object of the game is to inflict pain on another living being. Many other sports have pain as a consequence (football, rugby), but in boxing the goal is to inflict pain. The more pain the better. The ideal outcome is to render your opponent unconscious. That, IMHO, is barbaric.
Money and social constraints also significantly distort the matter of consent. Muhammed Ali was a black man living in an age of discrimination. His professional prospects were limited more by the color of his skin than by the content of his character. I think he was capable of a lot more than bashing people's skulls in. But because society places so much value on bashing people's skulls in, we will never know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QE9XBovMk0
For as beautiful as it was to watch him box, it is even more beautiful to watch him and Howard Cosell interact. The two of them were a pair, and Cosell was one of the first if not the first to acknowledge his name change. Cosell also stood by him when he decided to be a conscientious objector.
rip
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3624652/The-30-best-...
To make America the greatest is my goal, so I beat the Russian and I beat the Pole. And for the USA won the medal of gold. The Greeks said you're better than the Cassius of old.' - He said this quote after he won the Olympic light-heavyweight gold medal at the 1960 Games in Rome
Pretty amazing for an 18 year old .. if a bit Trump-like.
http://youtu.be/oJUzl0aFHZw
It lasts only 8 minutes. The opponent is clearly a slugger who is baffled by Ali's style. Ali moves very fast, and fights with his gloves down. I'm not a fan of boxing, but she's right, that fight is an amazing spectacle.
He was a big fan of basketball. He had a house outside Benton Harbor on Lake Michigan is the southwest part of the state near Indiana. Someone passed word to the coach of the Michigan State Spartans that Ali was a fan of the team. Coach Izzo arranged for him to attend a game each year.
After watching it, I finally understood that he wasn't just another athlete with a big ego and mouth, but a brilliant, courageous competitor, far beyond the rest.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118147/
Beautiful little 20 min doc on his life and, yes, his name: http://www.nytimes.com/video/sports/100000003216440/muhammad...
RIP.