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Ask HN: I don't need a big salary, how to avoid being deemed as lower quality?

34 points by emilburzo ↗ HN
I'm a Java dev / Linux sysadmin (actually a generalist, but that's where most of my experience is) working remotely from Romania.

If I go over $55k a year I get switched to another income tax bracket, which I wouldn't mind if it didn't come with a lot more paperwork and headaches (bureaucracy is better now around here, but it still has some catching up to do on the freelancer/self employed side) -- and I don't want that.

The problem is when I mention this salary upfront, I'm (mentally) assigned a lower value/quality when the client/employer is from an area when ever juniors make almost double that.

Now I'm no rockstar dev or 10x'er, but I do deliver.

How can I avoid this pitfall?

40 comments

[ 6.2 ms ] story [ 118 ms ] thread
new_hackers
Ask for other compensation rather than money.

For example, ask for a 4 day work week, or 2 months paid leave, or possibly other perks that are important to you?

You could also ask that the company make a donation on your behalf to another cause.

The nice part is that you can look passionate, important, and pragmatic all at the same time.

For example, say "I deeply care about free and open source software. As part of my compensation package, I expect your XYZ company to donate $$$ to MyCause."

emilburzo
It's a good idea, if the salary talk is after I've had a chance to prove I have value.

But a lot of times there's actually a specific field in the application form with "expected compensation".

nostrademons
Put market rates down in that field, and then when they reach a hiring decision, say "By the way, because of tax rates in my country, I'd like it if you could make my salary no more than $55K and donate the rest to these charities." I don't know any business that wouldn't be glad to find out, on hiring decision, that their new employee will cost them half as much as they bargained for and they can take a tax write-off on the rest.
Nicholas_C
If you're trying to get a job at BigCorp that's probably an HR nightmare to figure out.
rabidrat
I've been asking for 80% time for 10 years, and my current company is the only one who has ever approved it. Companies say that only the work matters, and they want to be flexible, and yadda yadda, but corporate culture expects you to be available on Fridays, at least nominally. And this is more true the bigger the company.
emilburzo
I've also noticed a disturbing trend with pseudo on-call availability, even on the weekends, labelled as "flexible working hours".

Then there's always the "unlimited time off, we trust you".

rabidrat
Yes, the company I'm at now has the 'unlimited time off' policy. Which has been shown to reduce the amount of time off people actually take, and means they don't have to pay out vacation when you leave. And that's on top of the perception that they're being kind to their employees. A triple win for the company.

But that's exactly why I want my 80% time to be officially recognized. I don't want to feel guilty or worry that I haven't justified my existence when I'm not there on Fridays. The contractual 3-day weekend means a lot more to me than an extra 20% salary with strings attached.

bbcbasic
What happens if you test that unlimited policy and take say every Friday off?
brianwawok
Your coworkers will resent you, and maybe try to get you on the crap projects.
brianwawok
The only counterpoint I could see is that you have fixed costs (insurance, desk, computer).. so 80% pay for 80% work is a small raise I guess? To make the bean counters happy maybe 75% pay for 80% work would be more fair?

But regardless, seems pretty awesome. I would want employees to get work done, not sit in a chair. I suspect someone working 4 day weeks would get more work done, per hour average, then someone working 5 days a week. Seems a no-brainer for a business to allow.

Now 1-2 day weeks for 20-40% pay? I can see communication is a bit tricky.. but 4 days a week is plenty.

moondev
Easy. Refuse to mention your current or desired salary. It's not required that you do. Insist that they give a number first. Not only will you get more money, but you will not be seen as cheap. Win Win.
new_hackers
I think the OP specifically doesn't want more money? (I read the intent as staying below the $55K line)
emilburzo
That is correct, I edited my post for better clarity.
moondev
If he wants to sacrifice thousands of dollars due to the burden of paperwork, i'm sure he could then tell them after the offer that he wants 55k instead of 80k and they would be just fine with it.
dangrossman
You could use the extra money to pay someone to do the paperwork for you.
emilburzo
Sure, but if something happens and I can't actually keep making that much money, there's no going back to the initial state.
dpeck
Where do you live? That really does sound like a beurocratic nightmare.
rjeli
mentioned in OP: Romania
creolasmith
You can just explain this, we are all humans and only your work (results) is the right meter
jenkstom
Negotiate as high a price as you can, not necessarily aggressively, but enough so that they know you take yourself seriously. Then take anything over 10% less than that.
sharemywin
Hire an accountant. The extra money will more than pay for one.
brndn
I have found there to be some common misconceptions about how tax brackets work, at least in the US. I'm not sure if this is how it works in your country and you might already be aware of this, but just in case it is helpful to anyone...

Only the income that is above the boundary of that higher bracket is taxed at the higher rate. All of the income below the boundary is taxed at the lower rate. E.g. if you make $105k and a higher tax bracket starts at $100k, only $5k is taxed at the higher rate.

thaeli
Romanian tax law is really weird; I'm guessing this is probably related to the IT worker tax exemption.

Good advice for most of the rest of the world though :)

twic
The OP mentioned that the problem with the higher tax bracket is that it means "a lot more paperwork and headaches".

Something similar exists in the UK: if you earn a salary of £99,999 or less (and don't fall foul of certain another criteria), you can pay tax via your employer, with no paperwork on your part. But if you earn £100,000 or more, you have to file a tax return of your own.

derekja
form a company (not necessarily in Romania), pay yourself the $55k from there and allow the remaining value to accrue in the company. Of course there's a paperwork hit with that as well, but mostly outside Romania.
coralreef
Won't he have to file annual tax for that company too?
kazinator
Idea: if you really don't want more than $55K, maybe you can make a 100% tax deductible donation to get down to 55K?

Hopefully the extra paperwork from that is minimal: just declare the donation somewhere, subtract from taxable income and attach receipt.

xiaoma
Is that how it works in Romania?
ArkyBeagle
So they simply do not understand that you are working remotely from Romania? Are you sure this is a problem? Because part of the whole job search thing is identifying people who you don't want to work with.

I live in the central US - which has, believe it or not, a similar problem. I do this partly because I'm a craftsman and I don't want to be part of the syndrome where making $110k yields the quality of life (by my lights) that $40k does here. I want people who pay more because I can infer that they'll be depending on me. I have done projects which addressed and "fixed" up to 100x the cost of development. I want those projects. Ive tried places where they want seat warmers. I can't compete on that basis.

I have access to a small choir to sing my praises. Perhaps you can do the same?

okoksowhatis
Why do you not simply use some of the extra income to hire someone to do the paperwork for you? Or hire someone to find someone to do the paperwork for you?

Edit: For example if you paid me $1,000 USD I would find someone in Romania to take care of the paperwork side of affairs for you, within the extra income you make, and with very little input from you aside from finished product.

emilburzo
But would I trust you with my financial paperwork if you missed that I already answered this question?
bbcbasic
You haven't answered that in your question. You didn't say why the bureaucracy is a problem and why paying someone to deal with it isn't a solution.

Edit: oh I see the answer nested in a reply near the bottom. Probably worth including it in your original question.

st3v3r
Just take the bigger salary. You'll be able to pay someone to do the paperwork for you
bbcbasic
I think working part time is the way to go. Do some open source work or learning on your days off.

Also talk to tax advisor. Maybe there is a workaround

drazvan
I'm also in Romania, making about $95k/year. I'm running it through my company, an LLC (SRL in Romanian). Starting in 2016, you can classify yourself as a micro-enterprise if you make less than EUR 100k ($112k) and you pay 3% in tax if you have no employees or 1% if you employ at least 2 people (could be you and your spouse for instance - that's what I do), then an additional 5% in dividend tax if you want to get cash in your pocket and don't expense anything. An accountant will cost you about 100 EUR (probably less in your case if you have just one monthly invoice to your client).

I'm not sure why you'd want to stay below $55k, depending on where you live you may just get additional projects and outsource them yourself to a junior dev you can monitor. That would give you your two employees to qualify for the 1% tax and you could move more of your workload to the additional dev as he/she learns stuff.

bjourne
You can't! It is essentially only in the free software world where your value as a human being is not valued by how much money you make.

Trust me, I've worked in the big Swedish company that took advantage of cheap Romanian and Bulgarian programmers and they were deemed as inferior. I didn't review any of their code so it is possible they were.

In all the jobs I've had, I've been treated with more respect and my opinions have carried more weight the more money I made. It's just how things are. I live a very frugal life and I don't need that much money, but I always aim for a salary much above market average because I know it will mean I will enjoy my work more.

cweagans
As someone who lives in a much less expensive part of the United States, I've run into this too (though likely not to the same degree as you). My advice: if you're skilled enough to command a higher salary, IMO, you should always push for it. Use some of the extra money to pay an accountant to do the paperwork for you. With the rest, invest it or if nothing else, put the extra money into a retirement account. You'll just be able to retire that much more quickly.
machinshin_
i'm curious how that works in Romania? and why is $55K the cap?
Zelmor
Are you doing this as an individual, or as a single person company? If the later, look into paying yourself less as regular income and another sum as dividents. Might save you on corporate tax. Also, pay a bookkeeper to do this for you. Your time and security is worth that small amount.