I live in Atlanta. The cost of living is low, quality of life is great, and there are tons of local companies to sell to. The culture here is to prioritize work-life balance[1], and it honestly seems to make everyone happier and more productive.
As far as startup culture, people really admire and encourage lean bootstrapping, which results in far more B2B companies than B2C. We do have an incubator[2] working to change that, but I actually prefer it this way. The SV culture of equating raising money with success is completely opposite of my own beliefs.
Assuming that by "location-independent entrepreneur" you mean that I could run my business from anywhere (as opposed to "digital nomad", referring to someone who does run their business from all over the world): Vancouver, Canada. Because it's my home; it's where most of my friends live; and... well, if you've ever lived in Vancouver you'll understand why I don't want to live anywhere else.
By "location-independent" I mean a person doesn't have to be in a certain location to run their business. Meaning, they can run their business from anywhere.
Vermont, because if you've ever been here you'd know there's no place like it. I like living in the middle of no where and having access to great outdoor activities, great food, and great place to raise a family. Not to expensive, but not cheap, and the extreme winters keeps the riff raff away...
Can you define what a "location-independent entrepreneur" is? Does it mean running a business where everyone is a telecommuter? Perhaps running a business that depends heavily on outsourcing, or even a one-man (no employees) business?
I do know someone who ran a business where he subcontracted all work to people overseas and basically functioned as a technical manager. He lived in the mountains outside of Silicon Valley. When I saw how he interacted with his friends, and the things he did, "why he lived where he lived" was obvious: He had lots of friends in the area, and was an active participant in the local culture.
It helps that he's close enough to a tech hub that he can drive in any time he needs; although a daily commute would be prohibitive.
I've also signed up for online source control and bug tracking (before Github really "won,") and found that it was a one-man business run by a friend-of-a-friend in Hawaii. The reasons for the owner living in Hawaii, or any area where there's a lot of recreation, are probably obvious.
As far as why people choose to live where they live; the usual reasons apply: Close to friends and family, lots of recreation, culture, and reasonable cost of living. Choosing a place within a large radius around a tech hub might also be important. For example, a ski bum could live in Tahoe or New Hampshire, but still get to Silicon Valley or Boston when needed.
Bangkok, because it offers all the amenities of a major city at less than half the cost. It has world class restaurants, nightlife that never stops, good public transport, and endless beaches an hour away. I traveled extensively and lived in the US and Australia before settling down here but I like big cities and there aren't a lot of nice ones like this where you can get a luxury condo with maid service for $1,000/mo.
I want to move to thailand for an unknown amount of time but the visa seems like more than I would care to deal with. Don't want to have to do visa runs and all of that.
It's easy enough to take Thai language classes and get a student visa in Thailand, though they appear to be getting more strict with their checks to validate that you are actually learning Thai. I say that, because some people just get the student visa and never actually take the classes.
You can also get a student visa (in Chiang Mai at least) for hand-to-hand combat training with the military police. You just take two lessons a week on Saturday and Sunday afternoons for two hours. http://chiangmaibuddy.com/services/chiang-mai-visa-services/....
You're spot on though - doing visa runs all the time gets old fast.
If I were 10 years younger & without kids... Hand to hand combat with the military police on a weekend sounds awesome!!!
Never understood westerners who live in Thailand (or any non-english, Asian country) but don't bother to learn the language. It's not as if you need to be fluent or even that good at it...
I believe that in Bangkok the Thai language schools currently require 8 hours of study a week to qualify for a student visa, which is more than it used to be but is still incredibly lenient. In the provinces I hear the requirements are even lower. Anyone who intends to stay here for more than a year without learning at least basic Thai is shooting themselves in the foot anyway IMHO.
> I want to move to thailand for an unknown amount of time
Have you visited before? Unless you're particularly adventurous I wouldn't suggest a move to Thailand without visiting first. I like living here, but its definitely not for everyone.
> but the visa seems like more than I would care to deal with.
You can hire a lawyer here to organise everything for you, it just depends how much you want to spend and what your situation/goal is.
> Don't want to have to do visa runs and all of that
Regardless of your type of visa, you will have to do something. I've lived here for close to 4 years, on a combination of business and now marriage visas, but I've only left the country twice in about 2 1/2 years.
Non-tourist visas get you a longer total stay (and some give the ability to apply for a work permit to work legally) but you still need to report to immigration every 90 days (resets each time you enter the country). As I said elsewhere, reporting in Bangkok is a fucking joke, in the provinces, its pretty quick and painless.
I have held various types of visas during my time here. One of the perks of Thailand, immigration-wise, is that while it can be a hassle (visa runs, bureaucracy, or both), there is always some way to stay here legally for as long as you want.
You can get a tourist visa in your home country and then just show up. If you decide you want to stay for a long time you should start researching your options early on and developing connections with people who live here. This is true in any country--connections with locals make everything, including visas, a lot easier.
I can't quite understand the appeal of Bangkok for westerners (compared to the rest of Thailand).
It's a hot, overcrowded, dirty city populated by people who don't really want to be there (Thais who come from other provinces just for work), or who only want to be there to be seen by all the people who don't want to be there (the irony of deathly-white hi-so girls shopping in a mall with a name that translates to "Brown people" is lost on most people)
If you're remote anyway, there are much nicer, cheaper places to be in this country.
As a westerner, there are other benefits to being outside Bangkok. The next time I do a 90-day-report (the smart mans alternative to a trip through immigration every 3 months) I fully expect to be in and out of the local Immigration office in less time than it takes to buy/brew a cup of coffee. By comparison the Bangkok offices are constantly overcrowded. For most things, if you're not in the queue by lunch time, forget about getting served that day.
Where else in Thailand would you recommend? I have traveled around the country quite a bit and still like Bangkok best, probably because I like big cities, but I'm open to trying other places.
Personally I've considered Mae-Rim,
Cha-Om and Nakhon Nayok, besides where I am now (Ayutthaya, due to family). But there are lots of other places - it just depends what you want.
at this point I couldn't go back to living in an apartment, or even a town house - and I much prefer to live somewhere I can jump on my bike for an hours ride without worrying too much about motorbike taxis trying to kill me, rather than somewhere I can step outside and have 4 7/11s, a Mini Big C and a Lotus Express within spitting distance.
Waking up to the sounds of birds rather than the sounds of street vendors and cars/motorbikes is amazing, and because it's not Bangkok we're still just 10 minkes drive from the centre of town (eg for immigration, amphur etc)
Yeah, I don't get it at all either. I couldn't stand living in Bangkok. Traffic is abysmal, it's hot, dirty and muggy. I understand the appeal of living in a big city, but BKK would never be my choice.
Vancouver, WA just across the bridge from Portland. Native Oregonian but mortgage on a condo downtown was less than $400/month, no state income tax & my profit-making side project is better protected by WA state IP laws (basically a copy of California's own time laws).
Worked for Google for many years, quit when I got a WFH job where I was guaranteed an "office" in Washington state.
Nowadays, just hang out with the friends I grew up with when I'm not working, saving money & hanging out with the wife (who also works from home).
Travel used to matter a lot but then I moved back home and realized I just hated living in San Francisco and people are way more important to me nowadays.
Basically the best thing ever and every morning I step out to get coffee & feel legit thankful I got escape the Bay Area and get back to my native biome.
If the wife didn't have a job and didn't like being close to family I would not mind living in Nice France. I was just there recently (luckily before the attack) and loved it. It is like San Diego but with French+Italian cuisine and warmer water. That being said San Diego, Miami, Vermont, and Colorado are some solid choices.
Sofia, Bulgaria (my wife is Bulgarian). Working remotely as a sysadmin, I push code to GitHub and do server maintenance from coffee shops and my couch. Fantastic internet in Bulgaria. Very cheap, awesome food, beautiful mountains here. Language a bit of an issue with older people and outside the capital.
Same here, for almost the same reasons (down to wife being Bulgarian). I would add that the girls are quite hot too (it has been a driving force in my life up to before marriage).
Are you learning Bulgarian, though? It's not a terribly hard language and it's generally a positive things to the locals if you speak it, even if you have a terrible accent.
Да, аз уча български език. Сега мога да говоря малко. (Yes, I'm studying Bulgarian language. Now I'm able to speak a bit). Learning to read/write Cyrillic has opened many doors, and even though I only speak like a five-year-old child, I can understand much more contextually.
If you didn't check already, see NomadList[0] for summarized information on a lot of cities. It provides a "score" in basic categories that would/could be important for people working remotely.
Amsterdam. As an American (or Japanese) citizen you can get a residency card easily here if you start a business under the DAFT. You can also get a 30% tax break for up to 8 years as a highly skilled migrant, which is good because the highest effective tax rate here is 52%. Aside from those things, the city is very clean, extremely safe, cheap groceries, tons of green space, and extremely easy to navigate by bike or public transport. My wife and I came from LA where none of those things are true. Going out to eat is also about half as much as LA, and there is a lot of restaurant variety due to the multicultural nature of the city. Cheap insurance for individuals with a highly rated health care system. Downsides are the weather can be unpredictable, and definitely cold and gloomy in the winter. Also high rents in some popular areas, but that's probably true for most places. Overall though, we're extremely happy with our choice and considering staying long term. Also speaking only English is no problem.
Yes. All you need is a business registration and a bank account with €5k in it. Both easy to setup in a week or two. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFT
No, this isn't correct. If you set up a ZZP you lose it forever, however if you create a BV and hire yourself into it, you can have it. Source: I did this.
Hmm, your right. Sorry about the mis information. I was confusing it with the knowledge worker status but that would only work if a company hires you and sponsors your application. So nothing to do with DAFT. Even as 'zzp' you still get a lot of tax benefits though. Especially the first few years. But if that does indeed invalidate your claim for the 30% ruling your method seems like the way to go.
Thank you for pointing out DAFT, that is pretty interesting. One question about starting a foreign corporation, Do the penalties and fees of the IRS regulations relating to US citizens owning a foreign corp. concern or worry you?
For example, a $10,000 a month penalty for failing to report ownership interest in a foreign corporation. (Form 5471)
This is the one thing that really stops me from considering owning a foreign corp.
Just an FYI, if you want to go through the effort of setting up a BV instead of a ZZP one, you get effective tax brackets of 40% after your first 44,000. Your BV will be profit-taxed 20% (I think) and then another 25% dividends (or the other way around). Set it up beginning this year with an accountant, if you're in the effective 52% bracket you might want to check (no idea how it works with the 30% break though!)
Hey, I'm also an American here in Amsterdam (I posted separately about it in this thread). Let me know if you'd like to meet up! Contact info at holovaty.com.
Even if you get a tax break in Amsterdam wouldn't you just end up paying that tax to the US? My understanding is basically your US tax still applies unless you are posting more in foreign tax than you would in US tax.
It's one of the highest terrorist-hit cities of the world but my parents love this place and are unwilling to move anywhere else. Due to their age (and lack of better retirement facilities) I live with them.
Home. In Lyon, France, because my friends are the most important asset.
I've also chosen my coworking space ("Ecoworking") based on the awesomeness of the community and the variety of entrepreneurs (NGOs, architects, book writers, motion designers, etc). I'm a software editor.
If it were only for the quality of living, I'd be in the south of France (Nice), but the coworking space I met there wasn't friendly. Besides, the cost of living is much lower in Lyon, notably because the car isn't necessary.
As an American who hadn't been out of North America until 10th grade, my student exchange to Lyon was very enjoyable and showed me how absurd life can be in America sometimes.
The beautiful old architecture paired with modern public transit made it an excellent city for adventures. We could be anywhere we wanted via bike, scooter, skateboard, and metro in almost no time, and there was so much to see. Coming from living in a car-centric US suburb, it was extremely liberating.
One of my fondest memories was when my exchange student was here in the states, and we were eating at an Applebees. The waitress took his 3/4 empty soda glass away, and he swore at her in french. She just shrugged and returned with a free refill. His jaw just dropped since drinking that much soda, and free refills, was totally foreign to him.
Aside from the obvious ease of doing business bit, I like the rule of law, weather, food, infrastructure, people and values (both Singaporean, and the expat community), low COL (for a developed country), international outlook, English as first and main language, ease of flying to cool places including the PRC and Japan, and the jungle in the middle that you can trek in any time also has a place in my heart. It's a great "home".
It's been a few years since I've been there but is that really the case? I've heard the rent is close to SF level and buying a car is supposed to cost a small fortune in taxes alone.
Just from walking around and eating out there, it seemed more expensive than any European city I've been to.
Rent is expensive. But if you only rent a room, you can go within 500-1000. Food isn't cheap compared to neighbouring countries, but there are neighbourhood eating places (hawker centers) that are ~US$5.
> I've heard the rent is close to SF level and buying a car is supposed to cost a small fortune in taxes alone.
The trick is not to drive in Singapore. Uber/Grab/cabs and other public transport options are much cheaper unless you need to move around a lot daily. E.g. in sales.
Rent: It's coming down at the moment. Depending on how far you're willing to commute it can be very reasonable.
Car: You can live here without a car. The public transport is exceptional and for times when you must go quickly/directly taxis are dirt cheap.
I can eat a decent quality filling lunch of Hainanese Chicken Rice for $2.50SGD (about €1.70 or $1.90USD) in my local hawker, prices I have never found in Europe unless you are willing to eat potentially hazardous materials.
It's true you can easily spend hundreds of dollars eating out if you like however there are plenty of options to keep expenses down. In CBD I can get lunch for less than $5 but usually spend around $8.
Cars are optional and aren't even the fastest way to get around (public transport + taxicabs + bicycle/e-bicycle is fastest). Rent can be low as well, depending on where and how big.
Low crime stable environment with strong regulations for food, water, housing, industrial safety, etc, means that necessities tend to be cheap and accessible even to the poorer part of society.
Status goods like cars, luxury cars, fine dining, strata housing, are as expensive as you want it to be. If your status referent group is based on the people around you, it will be as expensive as their income, and many Singaporeans have a lot of income.
- SGD 2,400/month for 80 sqm, 2 beds, on the other side of the hedge from the Istana (the Presidential residence). Mango tree outside the window. Couple of hornbills live in the neighbourhood. A further SGD 150/month for electricity and water. Managed building, so everything is new and works and can get replaced free if it breaks. I know people paying less to live in landed houses but they are very good at searching. Rents drop fast outside the centre; I saw a 120sqm 4 bedroom in Bukit Panjang (~1h from CBD by MRT, 20 minutes Uber) which was going for SGD 1,500/month in 2014.
You can also pay over SGD 15,000/month for a super penthouse in the best condo; there's quite a bit of demand for these because Americans with a high enough salary can offset their tax bill with it, so instead of giving it to the IRS they live lavishly.
- SGD 400/month for food including frequent "nice" restaurants (sometimes every night). This is helped by going to wet markets instead of supermarkets (in my case Tekka Market just down the road). I could probably cut that to SGD 50-100 by cooking every meal or eating only in hawkers (SGD 2-4/meal).
- SGD 200/month on Uber, mostly out of laziness. The MRT is ultra cheap (SGD 0.8 a short ride, maybe 1.2 for a 1h ride) and about as fast but requires an extra 5-10 minutes walk both ends. The 25 minutes ride from the airport to my flat cost me SGD 17 last night at 3am with a 2 minutes ETA.
- SGD 40/month for health insurance, this is for AIA gold max whatever (I asked for the best coverage they had) although only covers hospitalisation. Wife has corporate insurance which covers me, so GP visits etc. are free anyway.
- around SGD 500/month for flights. Both the yearly/bi-yearly flight home (usually around 1,000 return) and the various trips to Sydney, Tokyo, etc. which at the moment are every month (around 200 return, thanks budget airlines!). I typed my original comment from Sydney. I think I spent almost 50% of the year abroad in 2016.
- I "get back" around 1.5 extra rents thanks to the ultra low income tax rate (between 4-8% for a typical developer salary).
As far as I know, I could not get that quality of life for that money whilst being as central in any of New York, Sydney, Paris, Geneva, Zurich (maybe just, because of the high salaries), London or LA. I think it was doable in Berlin when I was last there (2010 or thereabouts) but have heard of skyrocketing prices since; also, Berlin is damn cold in winter. It's probably doable in secondary US cities like Chicago. I'm not familiar with SF but based on the rents I've seen, it's definitely not doable there.
Costs skyrocket when you have children if by then you do not have PR; in particular, the frequent pickups and drop-offs mean you either need to buy a car (which costs more than an American house) or take a lot more Ubers. House prices are comparable to capital cities in countries with equivalent GDP per capita; if you can't afford a flat in New York, Paris or London, you can't afford it in Singapore.
It's also quite expensive to drink due to high alcohol taxes. In my experience France, Italy and Spain and perhaps Germany are cheaper; the UK and the US are about the same. If alcohol is important to your social life, that can also rack up quickly.
I love visiting Singapore (from Thailand) but I can't imagine living there for any more than about 12 months at a push. What are the chances you will ever in your life be able to afford to buy anything bigger than an apartment/condo (aka a house on a piece of land) in Singapore?
Maybe it's OK from an American perspective but I can't imagine anything worse than living your entire life in a box surrounded by other people in their own little boxes.
> What are the chances you will ever in your life be able to afford to buy anything bigger than an apartment/condo (aka a house on a piece of land) in Singapore?
About the same as in Paris, London, New York or Tokyo. The difference being there's no "outer suburbs" where you can get a landed property cheap at the cost of a 1h+ commute. At the end of the day, where you live is about acceptable trade-offs. London hedge fund managers bid millions of pounds on houses in SW7 that an accountant in Ohio would pass for $200,000.
I have many friends in Bangkok raving about the quality of life there, but I think it's for an earlier stage of life. At this point in time, I value the rule of law, equality before the law for citizen and foreigners, stable infrastructure, stable non-corrupt government, etc. much more than I used to, and cities like Bangkok (or any PRC city) whilst a bit more exciting are just too much work.
In terms of actually running a business, every company I know of that has its owners in Bangkok somehow has incorporated in Singapore or is owned by a Singapore holding company. I think that has to do with farang ownership restrictions, again, didn't look too deep into it.
Again, it's a very personal outlook and if I could go back in time 10 years, I would head straight for somewhere like Bangkok or Beijing.
The other thing is that when I get box fever (which is rare, my box is comfortable) I just fly somewhere. You can rent a 2 bedroom bungalow steps from the (deserted) beach on Rottnest Island offshore Perth for around $120/night. The flight takes 5 hours and the ferry another 45 minutes. One of many options, including Thailand and Bali.
> About the same as in Paris, London, New York or Tokyo
So.. slim to fuck all?
> I have many friends in Bangkok raving about the quality of life there.
For reference, I'm not advocating for Bangkok either - frankly as a city-vs-city comparison Bangkok is less liveable than Singapore.
There are limits on foreign ownership but its definitely possible to base your company here.
> I think it's for an earlier stage of life
> when I get box fever (which is rare, my box is comfortable) I just fly somewhere
I don't understand how these two phrases fit into the context. To me, living in a shoebox apartment in the middle of a city without a car (which could be either BKK or SIN) "is for an earlier stage of life". When I moved out from my parents place, I moved into a series of small apartments, which progressively got bigger until now when we're back in a real house on a piece of land, and our child(ren) will grow up with a garden to run around in like I had as a kid.
I came here from Australia, so while I understand what you mean about stability of government and rule of law - I've come to appreciate the freedom that a lack of red-tape provides. Yes, I have to be more personally diligent and responsible, and yes I get some weird looks because I've put on a seatbelt, or used a car-seat for a child, or worn a bicycle helmet, or used a drill and screws rather than a nail to hang something on a concrete/brick wall, but I'm ok with that.
I don't particularly need a police officer fining me for driving 5km over the speed limit on a highway in the middle of nowhere to understand the benefits of a car seat for a child.
Foremost because it's always been 'home'. I grew up here and it's where my family and friends are.
There's plenty of space to explore and enjoy outside. I love having so many great beaches, places to mountain bike and go bush walking.
There's clean drinking water, unpolluted air, have a pretty decent healthcare system and healthy work culture. Speaking of culture, I'm yet to come across another culture that's as laid back and easy going.
At the same time, I take advantage of being 'location-independent' and travel frequently. In the past year I've explored Vietnam by motorbike, been surfing in central Australia, gone skiing in New Zealand, road tripped around California, Nevada & Arizona as well as spending some time just soaking up the culture in Japan.
Nelson, New Zealand. Beautiful nature all around me, the town is just big enough and it's a really awesome place to have a small kid. My folks are a short trip away so we see them every month, and the pace of life here is totally relaxed.
Downsides: basically zero tech scene, and it's getting pretty expensive these days.
That seems to be a common theme across the few places I know people working in tech in NZ. Wellington and Auckland are exceptions obviously (well, based on my very superficial interactions there at least). Christchurch has a decent amount of tech but the "scene" is quite humble and close-knit, which I think is more representative of most other places I know of in NZ. I'd probably chalk it up to raw population numbers and population density really.
Awesome country to raise a family though; you're totally right.
Nelson's lovely, but I can't get over Wanaka as the place to be in NZ. I've only visited there a few times, but I always leave thinking 'this would be a great place to settle down'.
Wanaka is really beautiful; for people who haven't been there you can get a reasonable idea of what it is like by watching almost any of the outdoor scenes from Lord of the Rings / Hobbit movies. I first went to Wanaka in '94 long before the rest of the world discovered it. Warbirds over Wanaka is great too if you're into WWII aircraft (and others besides). The skiing is great there too (Cardrona, Treble Cone). And Hilary's first major ascent was Mount Aspiring which is about 1.5 hours drive by 4x4 from Wanaka.
Also, $150-200 buys you a round-trip ticket to almost any other major city in Asia, so experiencing a new culture is just another way to spend a weekend. Taiwan's Eva Air and China Airlines are also excellent.
I agree, Taipei is a nice place to live and Taiwan is an amazing island. But do you work completely remotely (for a US company)? Do you have any experience with local businesses or starting something in Taiwan?
I've lived in Hong Kong and I'm interested in your insights. My email is in my profile.
Berlin, because it's where my social life is, with a week/month working somewhere else (Barcelona, Rome, Istanbul ...) when it gets too cold or boring.
Our rent is about 200 EUR but we're thinking of finding something even cheaper... and considering living for free in a kind of legal squat that will be a culture house where we could stay and do a few hours of helping out every week.
I'm here because my girlfriend is here, it's cheap, and it's pretty close to my family and friends in Sweden.
Riga is also small and cozy in a way that I seem to like.
In the future I have a hunch that I'd like to stay in Estonia. It seems like a very forward-thinking country tech-wise and a great place to do something like a blockchain business.
Same reasons mostly, except the city is having a big push to make the city a regional tech hub. There are already quite a few startups here such as Wix, Trafi, Vinted, TransferGo and bigger companies like Barclays employ over 1,500 IT staff in the city.
The city is small but has enough going on. It has a young vibe, as there are lots of students around. Plenty of cafes you can sit in all day and use the wifi. Public transport is good and taxis are cheap (phone or use an app to book them though: ETaksi, Taxify or Uber), or if you'd rather drive there are two car sharing schemes CityBee and Spark.
Only negative would be winter. If you like sub-zero (C and F) it's fine. As a digital nomad just escape to somewhere else then. Summers are nice though, around 25c - 30c and there are lots of lakes for swimming if it gets too hot.
I live in the backest of backwaters in England, rural Lincolnshire. We're a company of 10 but most of our customers are in SV and we work in $.
The why: My wife's from here and I've grown to like the culture and how much further money stretches. Luxury outside of London versus living in a shoebox is no real contest for me (but is a legitimate one for others).
Phnom Penh, Cambodia. My wife's work requires her to work abroad, and this is the post that made sense for our family and her career. It's a nice enough place to live and work, very cheap, all modern conveniences are available, great expat community. We'll stay for a couple more years, then move somewhere else (she gets re-posted every 2-3 years).
Andorra, small country in the middle of Pyrenees. Beautiful mountains with decent skiing in winter, all year around nice sunny weather, great food, almost all homes have fibre to home, close proximity to Barcelona. Cost-wise very affordable + only 10% income tax.
On the flip side there is no tech ecosystem or it can sometimes be a bit boring, you need to travel to BCN to get your culture fix :) It can also be a bit hard to get out since closest airport is BCN.
You can rent a 110m2 house for around 800 euros a month in a small town 30 minutes away from Bordeaux by car or train. The town is nice and getting better with new projects coming to make it more attractive for wine tourists (Saint Emilion is 10 minutes drive from it). There is a train station where you can get 5 trains per day to get to Paris in 3 hours. There is High school and hospital and all what you need for basic stuff, and if you can't find something you can still go to Bordeaux to get what you want.
I live there with my wife and kids mainly because it's cheap and not too far from our families and friends and because we wanted to get a not too small house (by french measure) with a nice garden for our kids in a nice area. As I see more and more people from Paris coming here so I think we made the right choice.
118 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 418 ms ] threadAs far as startup culture, people really admire and encourage lean bootstrapping, which results in far more B2B companies than B2C. We do have an incubator[2] working to change that, but I actually prefer it this way. The SV culture of equating raising money with success is completely opposite of my own beliefs.
1. http://www.fastcompany.com/1840856/how-southern-tech-workers...
2. http://www.switchyards.com
I do know someone who ran a business where he subcontracted all work to people overseas and basically functioned as a technical manager. He lived in the mountains outside of Silicon Valley. When I saw how he interacted with his friends, and the things he did, "why he lived where he lived" was obvious: He had lots of friends in the area, and was an active participant in the local culture.
It helps that he's close enough to a tech hub that he can drive in any time he needs; although a daily commute would be prohibitive.
I've also signed up for online source control and bug tracking (before Github really "won,") and found that it was a one-man business run by a friend-of-a-friend in Hawaii. The reasons for the owner living in Hawaii, or any area where there's a lot of recreation, are probably obvious.
As far as why people choose to live where they live; the usual reasons apply: Close to friends and family, lots of recreation, culture, and reasonable cost of living. Choosing a place within a large radius around a tech hub might also be important. For example, a ski bum could live in Tahoe or New Hampshire, but still get to Silicon Valley or Boston when needed.
How do you deal with the visa?
I want to move to thailand for an unknown amount of time but the visa seems like more than I would care to deal with. Don't want to have to do visa runs and all of that.
You can also get a student visa (in Chiang Mai at least) for hand-to-hand combat training with the military police. You just take two lessons a week on Saturday and Sunday afternoons for two hours. http://chiangmaibuddy.com/services/chiang-mai-visa-services/....
You're spot on though - doing visa runs all the time gets old fast.
Never understood westerners who live in Thailand (or any non-english, Asian country) but don't bother to learn the language. It's not as if you need to be fluent or even that good at it...
Getting 1 year multi entry visas for business visa are pretty easy. And then your visa runs are down to once a quarter.
I really enjoyed my year and a half stint in Bangkok. But. It also taught me that I value climate pretty highly when choosing my next location.
Have you visited before? Unless you're particularly adventurous I wouldn't suggest a move to Thailand without visiting first. I like living here, but its definitely not for everyone.
> but the visa seems like more than I would care to deal with.
You can hire a lawyer here to organise everything for you, it just depends how much you want to spend and what your situation/goal is.
> Don't want to have to do visa runs and all of that
Regardless of your type of visa, you will have to do something. I've lived here for close to 4 years, on a combination of business and now marriage visas, but I've only left the country twice in about 2 1/2 years.
Non-tourist visas get you a longer total stay (and some give the ability to apply for a work permit to work legally) but you still need to report to immigration every 90 days (resets each time you enter the country). As I said elsewhere, reporting in Bangkok is a fucking joke, in the provinces, its pretty quick and painless.
You can get a tourist visa in your home country and then just show up. If you decide you want to stay for a long time you should start researching your options early on and developing connections with people who live here. This is true in any country--connections with locals make everything, including visas, a lot easier.
It's a hot, overcrowded, dirty city populated by people who don't really want to be there (Thais who come from other provinces just for work), or who only want to be there to be seen by all the people who don't want to be there (the irony of deathly-white hi-so girls shopping in a mall with a name that translates to "Brown people" is lost on most people)
If you're remote anyway, there are much nicer, cheaper places to be in this country.
As a westerner, there are other benefits to being outside Bangkok. The next time I do a 90-day-report (the smart mans alternative to a trip through immigration every 3 months) I fully expect to be in and out of the local Immigration office in less time than it takes to buy/brew a cup of coffee. By comparison the Bangkok offices are constantly overcrowded. For most things, if you're not in the queue by lunch time, forget about getting served that day.
at this point I couldn't go back to living in an apartment, or even a town house - and I much prefer to live somewhere I can jump on my bike for an hours ride without worrying too much about motorbike taxis trying to kill me, rather than somewhere I can step outside and have 4 7/11s, a Mini Big C and a Lotus Express within spitting distance.
Waking up to the sounds of birds rather than the sounds of street vendors and cars/motorbikes is amazing, and because it's not Bangkok we're still just 10 minkes drive from the centre of town (eg for immigration, amphur etc)
Worked for Google for many years, quit when I got a WFH job where I was guaranteed an "office" in Washington state.
Nowadays, just hang out with the friends I grew up with when I'm not working, saving money & hanging out with the wife (who also works from home).
Travel used to matter a lot but then I moved back home and realized I just hated living in San Francisco and people are way more important to me nowadays.
Basically the best thing ever and every morning I step out to get coffee & feel legit thankful I got escape the Bay Area and get back to my native biome.
[0] https://nomadlist.com/
2 on Weather (Mediterranean climate), 2 on Fun (huge developed city with all sorts of entertainment).
It's one of the highest terrorist-hit cities of the world but my parents love this place and are unwilling to move anywhere else. Due to their age (and lack of better retirement facilities) I live with them.
I've also chosen my coworking space ("Ecoworking") based on the awesomeness of the community and the variety of entrepreneurs (NGOs, architects, book writers, motion designers, etc). I'm a software editor.
If it were only for the quality of living, I'd be in the south of France (Nice), but the coworking space I met there wasn't friendly. Besides, the cost of living is much lower in Lyon, notably because the car isn't necessary.
The beautiful old architecture paired with modern public transit made it an excellent city for adventures. We could be anywhere we wanted via bike, scooter, skateboard, and metro in almost no time, and there was so much to see. Coming from living in a car-centric US suburb, it was extremely liberating.
One of my fondest memories was when my exchange student was here in the states, and we were eating at an Applebees. The waitress took his 3/4 empty soda glass away, and he swore at her in french. She just shrugged and returned with a free refill. His jaw just dropped since drinking that much soda, and free refills, was totally foreign to him.
Aside from the obvious ease of doing business bit, I like the rule of law, weather, food, infrastructure, people and values (both Singaporean, and the expat community), low COL (for a developed country), international outlook, English as first and main language, ease of flying to cool places including the PRC and Japan, and the jungle in the middle that you can trek in any time also has a place in my heart. It's a great "home".
It's been a few years since I've been there but is that really the case? I've heard the rent is close to SF level and buying a car is supposed to cost a small fortune in taxes alone.
Just from walking around and eating out there, it seemed more expensive than any European city I've been to.
Rent is expensive. But if you only rent a room, you can go within 500-1000. Food isn't cheap compared to neighbouring countries, but there are neighbourhood eating places (hawker centers) that are ~US$5.
> I've heard the rent is close to SF level and buying a car is supposed to cost a small fortune in taxes alone.
The trick is not to drive in Singapore. Uber/Grab/cabs and other public transport options are much cheaper unless you need to move around a lot daily. E.g. in sales.
Car: You can live here without a car. The public transport is exceptional and for times when you must go quickly/directly taxis are dirt cheap.
I can eat a decent quality filling lunch of Hainanese Chicken Rice for $2.50SGD (about €1.70 or $1.90USD) in my local hawker, prices I have never found in Europe unless you are willing to eat potentially hazardous materials.
It's true you can easily spend hundreds of dollars eating out if you like however there are plenty of options to keep expenses down. In CBD I can get lunch for less than $5 but usually spend around $8.
Low crime stable environment with strong regulations for food, water, housing, industrial safety, etc, means that necessities tend to be cheap and accessible even to the poorer part of society.
Status goods like cars, luxury cars, fine dining, strata housing, are as expensive as you want it to be. If your status referent group is based on the people around you, it will be as expensive as their income, and many Singaporeans have a lot of income.
- SGD 2,400/month for 80 sqm, 2 beds, on the other side of the hedge from the Istana (the Presidential residence). Mango tree outside the window. Couple of hornbills live in the neighbourhood. A further SGD 150/month for electricity and water. Managed building, so everything is new and works and can get replaced free if it breaks. I know people paying less to live in landed houses but they are very good at searching. Rents drop fast outside the centre; I saw a 120sqm 4 bedroom in Bukit Panjang (~1h from CBD by MRT, 20 minutes Uber) which was going for SGD 1,500/month in 2014.
You can also pay over SGD 15,000/month for a super penthouse in the best condo; there's quite a bit of demand for these because Americans with a high enough salary can offset their tax bill with it, so instead of giving it to the IRS they live lavishly.
- SGD 400/month for food including frequent "nice" restaurants (sometimes every night). This is helped by going to wet markets instead of supermarkets (in my case Tekka Market just down the road). I could probably cut that to SGD 50-100 by cooking every meal or eating only in hawkers (SGD 2-4/meal).
- SGD 200/month on Uber, mostly out of laziness. The MRT is ultra cheap (SGD 0.8 a short ride, maybe 1.2 for a 1h ride) and about as fast but requires an extra 5-10 minutes walk both ends. The 25 minutes ride from the airport to my flat cost me SGD 17 last night at 3am with a 2 minutes ETA.
- SGD 40/month for health insurance, this is for AIA gold max whatever (I asked for the best coverage they had) although only covers hospitalisation. Wife has corporate insurance which covers me, so GP visits etc. are free anyway.
- around SGD 500/month for flights. Both the yearly/bi-yearly flight home (usually around 1,000 return) and the various trips to Sydney, Tokyo, etc. which at the moment are every month (around 200 return, thanks budget airlines!). I typed my original comment from Sydney. I think I spent almost 50% of the year abroad in 2016.
- I "get back" around 1.5 extra rents thanks to the ultra low income tax rate (between 4-8% for a typical developer salary).
As far as I know, I could not get that quality of life for that money whilst being as central in any of New York, Sydney, Paris, Geneva, Zurich (maybe just, because of the high salaries), London or LA. I think it was doable in Berlin when I was last there (2010 or thereabouts) but have heard of skyrocketing prices since; also, Berlin is damn cold in winter. It's probably doable in secondary US cities like Chicago. I'm not familiar with SF but based on the rents I've seen, it's definitely not doable there.
Costs skyrocket when you have children if by then you do not have PR; in particular, the frequent pickups and drop-offs mean you either need to buy a car (which costs more than an American house) or take a lot more Ubers. House prices are comparable to capital cities in countries with equivalent GDP per capita; if you can't afford a flat in New York, Paris or London, you can't afford it in Singapore.
It's also quite expensive to drink due to high alcohol taxes. In my experience France, Italy and Spain and perhaps Germany are cheaper; the UK and the US are about the same. If alcohol is important to your social life, that can also rack up quickly.
https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/f/ff/Singapore-Climate.p...
I love visiting Singapore (from Thailand) but I can't imagine living there for any more than about 12 months at a push. What are the chances you will ever in your life be able to afford to buy anything bigger than an apartment/condo (aka a house on a piece of land) in Singapore?
Maybe it's OK from an American perspective but I can't imagine anything worse than living your entire life in a box surrounded by other people in their own little boxes.
About the same as in Paris, London, New York or Tokyo. The difference being there's no "outer suburbs" where you can get a landed property cheap at the cost of a 1h+ commute. At the end of the day, where you live is about acceptable trade-offs. London hedge fund managers bid millions of pounds on houses in SW7 that an accountant in Ohio would pass for $200,000.
I have many friends in Bangkok raving about the quality of life there, but I think it's for an earlier stage of life. At this point in time, I value the rule of law, equality before the law for citizen and foreigners, stable infrastructure, stable non-corrupt government, etc. much more than I used to, and cities like Bangkok (or any PRC city) whilst a bit more exciting are just too much work.
In terms of actually running a business, every company I know of that has its owners in Bangkok somehow has incorporated in Singapore or is owned by a Singapore holding company. I think that has to do with farang ownership restrictions, again, didn't look too deep into it.
Again, it's a very personal outlook and if I could go back in time 10 years, I would head straight for somewhere like Bangkok or Beijing.
The other thing is that when I get box fever (which is rare, my box is comfortable) I just fly somewhere. You can rent a 2 bedroom bungalow steps from the (deserted) beach on Rottnest Island offshore Perth for around $120/night. The flight takes 5 hours and the ferry another 45 minutes. One of many options, including Thailand and Bali.
So.. slim to fuck all?
> I have many friends in Bangkok raving about the quality of life there.
For reference, I'm not advocating for Bangkok either - frankly as a city-vs-city comparison Bangkok is less liveable than Singapore.
There are limits on foreign ownership but its definitely possible to base your company here.
> I think it's for an earlier stage of life
> when I get box fever (which is rare, my box is comfortable) I just fly somewhere
I don't understand how these two phrases fit into the context. To me, living in a shoebox apartment in the middle of a city without a car (which could be either BKK or SIN) "is for an earlier stage of life". When I moved out from my parents place, I moved into a series of small apartments, which progressively got bigger until now when we're back in a real house on a piece of land, and our child(ren) will grow up with a garden to run around in like I had as a kid.
I came here from Australia, so while I understand what you mean about stability of government and rule of law - I've come to appreciate the freedom that a lack of red-tape provides. Yes, I have to be more personally diligent and responsible, and yes I get some weird looks because I've put on a seatbelt, or used a car-seat for a child, or worn a bicycle helmet, or used a drill and screws rather than a nail to hang something on a concrete/brick wall, but I'm ok with that.
I don't particularly need a police officer fining me for driving 5km over the speed limit on a highway in the middle of nowhere to understand the benefits of a car seat for a child.
Foremost because it's always been 'home'. I grew up here and it's where my family and friends are.
There's plenty of space to explore and enjoy outside. I love having so many great beaches, places to mountain bike and go bush walking.
There's clean drinking water, unpolluted air, have a pretty decent healthcare system and healthy work culture. Speaking of culture, I'm yet to come across another culture that's as laid back and easy going.
At the same time, I take advantage of being 'location-independent' and travel frequently. In the past year I've explored Vietnam by motorbike, been surfing in central Australia, gone skiing in New Zealand, road tripped around California, Nevada & Arizona as well as spending some time just soaking up the culture in Japan.
There's not much going on in the middle of the country.
I don't think anyone ever in the history of the planet has described that location as "Central Australia", before you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Coast_(New_South_Wales...
Downsides: basically zero tech scene, and it's getting pretty expensive these days.
That seems to be a common theme across the few places I know people working in tech in NZ. Wellington and Auckland are exceptions obviously (well, based on my very superficial interactions there at least). Christchurch has a decent amount of tech but the "scene" is quite humble and close-knit, which I think is more representative of most other places I know of in NZ. I'd probably chalk it up to raw population numbers and population density really.
Awesome country to raise a family though; you're totally right.
* Clean and modern.
* Very safe.
* Nice people.
* Excellent public transportation.
* Good housing (relatively inexpensive).
* Great restaurants (extremely inexpensive).
* Low sales tax.
* Mandarin is a fun language to learn.
Also, $150-200 buys you a round-trip ticket to almost any other major city in Asia, so experiencing a new culture is just another way to spend a weekend. Taiwan's Eva Air and China Airlines are also excellent.
- Taipei is a green city - easy to meet interesting people - Very foreigner friendly - Good and cheap healthcare
Our rent is about 200 EUR but we're thinking of finding something even cheaper... and considering living for free in a kind of legal squat that will be a culture house where we could stay and do a few hours of helping out every week.
I'm here because my girlfriend is here, it's cheap, and it's pretty close to my family and friends in Sweden.
Riga is also small and cozy in a way that I seem to like.
In the future I have a hunch that I'd like to stay in Estonia. It seems like a very forward-thinking country tech-wise and a great place to do something like a blockchain business.
Or Romania... or Holland... or Barcelona...
Same reasons mostly, except the city is having a big push to make the city a regional tech hub. There are already quite a few startups here such as Wix, Trafi, Vinted, TransferGo and bigger companies like Barclays employ over 1,500 IT staff in the city.
The city is small but has enough going on. It has a young vibe, as there are lots of students around. Plenty of cafes you can sit in all day and use the wifi. Public transport is good and taxis are cheap (phone or use an app to book them though: ETaksi, Taxify or Uber), or if you'd rather drive there are two car sharing schemes CityBee and Spark.
Oh and internet speeds... I have 100/100 fiber at home for €10/month (there is also a 600/600 option). Ping times to London are 40ms. http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/5458602528
Only negative would be winter. If you like sub-zero (C and F) it's fine. As a digital nomad just escape to somewhere else then. Summers are nice though, around 25c - 30c and there are lots of lakes for swimming if it gets too hot.
The why: My wife's from here and I've grown to like the culture and how much further money stretches. Luxury outside of London versus living in a shoebox is no real contest for me (but is a legitimate one for others).
On the flip side there is no tech ecosystem or it can sometimes be a bit boring, you need to travel to BCN to get your culture fix :) It can also be a bit hard to get out since closest airport is BCN.
You can rent a 110m2 house for around 800 euros a month in a small town 30 minutes away from Bordeaux by car or train. The town is nice and getting better with new projects coming to make it more attractive for wine tourists (Saint Emilion is 10 minutes drive from it). There is a train station where you can get 5 trains per day to get to Paris in 3 hours. There is High school and hospital and all what you need for basic stuff, and if you can't find something you can still go to Bordeaux to get what you want.
I live there with my wife and kids mainly because it's cheap and not too far from our families and friends and because we wanted to get a not too small house (by french measure) with a nice garden for our kids in a nice area. As I see more and more people from Paris coming here so I think we made the right choice.