Ask HN: Any experience with defiant children?
My oldest son is now 6 years old and grows more defiant by the day. He frequently tries to physically hurt me, his mom, and his younger sisters (ages 1 and 3).
We've tried the whole "natural consequences" thing and he doesn't care. He just uses it as an excuse to get angrier and call you names.
Timeouts don't work either. It's gotten to the point that we cannot get him to settle down without physically restraining him. I literally tied him to his bedpost this weekend so he would stop slamming doors and breaking stuff in his room while he was supposed to be on timeout.
Since the HN crowd comes from such a diverse background, I was hoping someone out there has experience with this kind of behavior and can offer some advice. None of the methods we know of are working and he is quickly wearing our family down to the bone. I'm not sure how much more my wife can take.
63 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 93.8 ms ] threadFor the most part he behaves fine out in public (or when he knows he's being tested). But once he gets home he's an absolute terror.
I am not a parent but had experience raising a family members child. I was also a "problem child" similar to your description (probably worse).
When I was in high school I remember my mom losing it one night and saying she wished I was never born. Those things stick for life and my wife is very much at that point.
For us we definitely saw a correlation with acting out and timing of him becoming a big brother. He was already going through a phase of acting out and testing limits but when he found out he was going to be a big brother all that behavior escalated a bit and was more frequent.
At this age they are too young to know how to deal with emotions of not being the center of attention. You almost can't reason with them because they don't act rationally and they just don't know how to deal with their emotions. I've been able to break through with him quite a bit by removing him from the escalating situations and talking to him and convincing him I'm trying to help. It's hard, and doesn't always work but when it does he actually calms down and will tell the truth about his feelings - much of which is related to his brother and some of it is us just not understanding his intent on his actions and reacting to something we think is bad.
In my son's case he's already a bit weird and my wife has on more that one occasion suggested he has autism because he won't eat certain foods, doesn't like loud noises, etc. I think he's unique and creative and has a big imagination like all kids do. I'm not interested in diagnosing him and making him a robot. It's tough at times but we take it day by day.
He's a very creative and strong willed boy. Loves people and loves to talk. If he's left to his own he does alright, but unfortunately he has zero concern for anyone else's safety so he's not able to do that very often. The words "no" and "stop" have been far too frequent in our house lately but it's really hard when you have a newborn and he's jumping off his bunk bed and nearly crushing her.
We like weird too. We have friends raising robots and I'm honestly not sure which is more painful to watch -- my son losing it or their kids acting like grownups.
Once we all realised that he didn't want to be angry it got a lot easier for everyone. We gave him words and guidance to let him analyse his anger, helped him to try different means of coping with his feelings and then incentives to apply those tools.
BTW StackExchange's parenting community[0] is a good place to find answers to issues like this.
[0] http://parenting.stackexchange.com/
What incentives worked for you? We've tried the points/sticker chart thing without any luck (allowing him to redeem his points for audio books, tv shows, treats, and even Dave and Buster's if he saved up a lot).
We had a chart of 7 faces which could be happy or sad, one per day for a week, that he fills in at the end of each day. He gets a warning when he first starts to act up then a sad face if he carries on. All smiley faces means a small toy at the weekend.
Filling in the chart some long time after the behaviour was important as it allowed for calm(er) reflection on the consequences of bad behaviour.
It took a couple of weeks to see an improvement but over all has worked really well for us.
And I don't mean parents being sadists for the sake of it, but using it judiciously.
The lesson that resorting to violence results in even more violence thrown back at you and therefore violence is not something to start is a useful one.
Of course, this only works on people or animals with the mental faculties to understand this, so probably it's useless on children less than 6 years old.
Not sure what else to do though. He refuses to accept no for answer and insists on doing whatever he pleases whenever he pleases unless you physically stop him.
Hopefully that attitude will make him wildly successful when he gets older, but it's currently tearing our family apart.
Willful, defiant children were considered a good thing by in early American Virginian planter colony..
Throwing around ignorant information without anything to back it up is typical, but maybe when the implication is that a person should physically abused his child you should hold off until you have more than your gut feeling.
In the old days they just had more space and time to explore things on their own, work out mini conflicts with other kids on their own, and basically learn the rules of life on their own.
It's really sad how little room there is for kids to do anything truly on their own these days. Once I've saved enough money I'm going to open an adventure land here on Oahu to give kids like my son a place to breathe and be their selves.
Show me some proof that anything is different.
Is he on the autism spectrum. The right teacher or school program might transform him. Please ffs stop restraining him.
This avoids the problem.
physically restraining him
This exacerbates the problem. How can anyone trust someone who physically ties them down? Can you start any kind of relationship like this, let alone continue one with your parent? One cannot respond to emotional abuse and physical abuse with emotional abuse and physical abuse, and expect the relationship to improve.
natural consequences
Googling this.
If you mean he wouldn't wear a coat even if it's cold, and ignores the cold, then by all means let him continue.get angrier and call you names.
How do you feel when he is angry and call you names? Not the "parent armor" that you wear. Turn that off, turn off the "I'm doing this for your own good", turn off the "I'm parent so I can tell you what to do". But how do you, the child inside you, the one who feel secure in the love of your parents, feel inside? Let that child out. If you're going to cry and stay at home in bed all day hiding because you can't handle the emotions, then do that.
That's natural consequence.
Avoid raising your voice, avoid coercing him to do your wish, avoid tieing him down. If he would stay at home than go with you to picnic, trust him, and let you or your wife stay at home to make sure he is safe, while the rest of the family continue on. Let him physically hurt you (but not your wife or other children), unless your life is in danger.
The fact that you put natural consequence in quotes, shows you can respect it a little more.
EDIT; But it is very good you are asking for help, it is on the path to becoming a good father.
Don't like dinner? That's fine, don't eat. Then he goes in and makes a bowl of ice cream. What's the natural consequence approach there?
Same when he's taking his frustration out on his toys. Eventually one actually breaks and now he's sad _and_ angry and directs his emotions at his mom and sisters.
Just this week he figured out how to climb over our fence and out into the street. Is the natural consequence to let him be run over or kidnapped?
I put "natural consequences" in quotes because I think it's a joke. If your dealing with problems that have natural consequences you don't actually have much of a problem.
I would ask him for his favourite ice cream, take him out to the supermarket if he likes to come with me, buy a 2L box of it, and let him eat it the whole night if he wishes. Be happy he's enjoying the moment, enjoy it yourself, connect with him. Repeat this every night until he wants to eat something else. He has to find out, using his own experience, why it's unpleasant to eat only ice cream for dinner every night, so that, one day, a week from now, a month, two months, he would choose to eat proper dinner because he truly wants to, from his heart, rather than doing it because his parents are forcing him to.
If he's going to be a broken man either way, at least he grew up with a father who listened and empathised with him, and accepted him for who he is, rather than being physically restrained in bed, yelled at and controlled.
To love someone, we accept their choices, even when we know those choices have bad consequences, at the same time we trust they will eventually find their own way.
mom and sisters.
How does your wife react, and what does she actually feel? Inside she's upset and hurt and worn out to be blamed for something outside of her control, but I have a hunch she doesn't act that way in front of him. You can't force her to be vulnerable in front of him, but you could redirect his anger to yourself, explain to him why you're doing that (your wife is worn out and you want to protect her), and then you could choose to show him your sadness when he's angry at you.
I put "natural consequences" in quotes because I think it's a joke.
I'd love to know if any techniques I could try, that would work, while treating it as a joke. I'm serious.
Developmentally, a 6 year old is just not ready to be in control of defining all their own boundaries. They need adults to help them with this. Often times the reason kids are acting out is because they don't know where the boundary is or they sense where it is but it feels too unsteady. Clearly defining boundaries around a child's behavior is going to help them feel more secure.
You're right, I should wait till I have had kids before giving out this advice.
I take my comments back and endorse the following two comments.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12225434
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12223002
"Let him physically hurt you" is, oddly, great advice. I've let this happen too with generally good results. Kid's emotions have run high, he feels he's unfairly treated, is ignored and powerless ... and consequently is unable to communicate without histrionics. Pinching or pulling hair is his attempt to show he's not having anymore of the shit the world's thrown at him. So let him express himself like that ... this time!
Then - when he's calm - ask him to explain what he felt and thought. Then ask "Was pulling my hair the right thing to do? Can I pull your hair to show you how it hurts? ... Exactly!"
You'll earn your reward when a 6 year old comes to you, on his own, unasked, to apologise for hurting you.
I have a high needs 8 year old. I find there are certain things that always trigger her -- poor sleep, hunger, watching TV/playing video games, too much play with other people. It takes a lot of discipline to keep these in balance, but the effort pays off most of the time.
As far as discipline goes, every child has different needs and every parent has their own style. Most likely there is an underlying cause to the behavior -- be it developmental, physical, emotion -- and as parents we rarely know the true cause.
"Time in" rather than "Time out," reading together, going outside in nature can all be healing.
Hand in Hand Parenting has some good gentle discipline resources. "Raising Your Spirited Child" or "The Highly Sensitive Child" may be good resource to assess your son's temperament.
The "Your X-Year Old" series of books is often a good measuring stick to figure out age expected behaviors.
Time ins, punishment, rewards, etc are all linked to short term wins -- not long term success. "Unconditional Parenting" is one of my favorite books on the subject.
Finally, if this is a new behavior, it is possible there was an outside catalyst -- not what a parent wants to think about. Do work on giving your son tools to communicate -- words, drawings, a good understanding of his biology (age appropriate). Having a neutral professional he can talk to is helpful as well.
Good luck -- what a lucky son to have a father so humble as to ask for help.
Good luck!
If he breaks things in his room, let him, and don't buy new toys/furniture.
If he tears up his room, then remove anything you care about and let him tear the rest up.
If he is not nice and polite during mealtime, then he does not eat. Or the meal that is provided is very basic, and must be eaten in the room.
Eventually you may have to remove all forms of pleasure, including toys, games, nice clothes, etc.
During this process, communicate that you all love him, but do not like how he is acting. Explain that nice polite behavior will be rewarded. You will eventually feel like you are running a small jail, but eventually it will sink in.
Also hard work is very good at wearing kids out. If you have the opportunity then digging a hole is good therapy. Make him dig a good hole before he can have dinner, and it must be done right, or back to the room. After dinner, make him fill it back up. Once he starts correcting, give more useful chores like sweeping floors.
Keep up the communication, and work on directing the energy towards physical activities and praising polite behavior. Perhaps a game of horse with dad would be a good reward.
Good luck!
I actually coach kids from ages 6 - 12 in Judo but team sports can be good also. It's rewarding to see kids mature mentally through training in sports. I have had some real problem kids improve their behaviour over time.
Once they get to about 6, they are mentally ready to learn an organized sport and the challenge is good for them.
A peer of his in school, I'll call him John, has a problem. To parents, his own and his friends', he's what one would politely describe as a terror. No respect for property or rights, no consideration for feelings, constant lashing out, and an almost masochistic "bring it, bitch" attitude to anyone who might suggest disciplinary action or consequences he might find unfavorable. He invites it.
He was diagnosed with conduct disorder. His parents' unpredictable methods of discipline, their lower income status compared to their peers, and lack of an "always home when I'm home" parent were significant factors in what developed into the behavior ultimately diagnosed as conduct disorder. At 7 years of age (3-4 years ago) he had already identified other kids who would support his behavior, even encourage it. There was even a time when substance abuse was considered, but his parents spied on him pretty hardcore (that didn't help, either, I might add, and it often won't) and determined that not to be the case.
I've followed this family for five years, and seen encouraging improvements since diagnosis last year. First, it qualified him as having a disability, so ADA kicks in and makes programs available to him in school, such as an IEP (individual education plan), disciplinary changes, and support staff/interventions (sometimes called "pull-outs", where he goes to a different classroom for part of his day). Second, a developmental pediatrician and pediatric psychiatrist worked with the family on a treatment program. One that, in his case, included prescription medication, and I mention that incidentally; I know many folks have problems with their child being given a prescription that changes their behavior or mental mode, but I don't want it to go unnoticed that, for many, they can indeed help. In John's case, it gave him enough of a "mental quiet" that the behavioral therapies at home and school would have a chance to reach his mind before his rage shut it out.
My strongest advice is: take him to a pediatric psychiatrist. ASAP. Even if you think he'll fake it when he's being tested. And be direct and honest when asked about his home environment. If the doctor doesn't have all the data, they can't help effectively, and it can only hurt your child's future to get the wrong therapy.
And please, if you or your wife need pharmaceutical help to be calm and clear-minded with your child, talk to a doctor. Your son's parents need to be calm and consistent, even though that means more work for you. Calmly remove the things he damages. Do not be goaded into a physical response, it does not work. If you have to take shifts standing in his doorway to keep him in his room, it's far more effective than locking him in there.
Mom and dad need to be trusted again. Therapy will help.
Hang in there.
Also: read more about it here: http://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Families_and_Youth/Facts_for_Fami...
His teachers say he doesn't have any problems at school, which is comforting yet extremely frustrating at the same time since that means it's very much an environmental condition. And the environment he doesn't cope well with seems to be his younger sisters.
There are probably books (I think there's a book called "wonder years" or similar).
Mostly it seems to be about relentless praise and attention for good behaviour, where "good" includes "not actively bad". Thos can include sticker charts and rewards, or "listening beans" (the child has a small pot which they decorate. You then give them a bean everytime they do somethin good or tehy listen well. When the pot is full they get a reward. You need to keep praising them for their positive behaviours - "look how many beans you've got. Great job! You've worked really hard for this."
You might also want to consider seeking a diagnosis for ADD or similar.
There's also "how to talk so kids will listen" which seems to get metioned in conversations like this.
(Sorry, on terrible monile at the moment so unable to provide links).
Reassure him that he still is your "Numero Uno" in every way. Spend some one on one time with him doing things he likes. Take him movies, parks or zoo etc alone.
Reestablish that "exclusive" relationship you once had with him. He feels that your original relationship is under threat after those two Johnny-come-lately arrived on the scene ... one after another!
Good luck.
Paying attention and giving reassurance that your kid is still important is hardly a reward. It's their oxygen for their emotional development.
I am just adding to that. I do not know your real situation so I am just extrapolating. It could be that his siblings are taking a good share of parental attention that was once fully his. Especially his mother's.
If so, you will need to patiently work with him to show you are fair to all kids. Once the mother is free enough to spend time with him, this behaviour will subside. She will currently be having her hands full with the little ones and you might have to pitch in.
With time and patience he will be back to his calm self. Next to your 3 and 1 year old, he might seem older but remember that he is still just a kid and not too emotionally different from a 3 year old.
When, the going gets difficult, remember this too shall pass and some time in the future, you will use this experience to help out another harried parent!
Outdoor free play can release some of the kid's pent-up energy and that certainly helps
Ensure the kid is getting enough sleep too.
Your point about remembering he's just a kid is spot on. He seems SO old compared to his sisters, but every once in a while he'll say something that strikes that chord and makes you remember just how young he still is and how much help he still needs.
We've been hiring baby sitters this summer so my wife can do 1-on-1 dates with him twice a week. He has a blast with her but then immediately relapses as soon as they get back to the house. Almost makes things worse because you feel like you're doing something right for once and then it ultimately ends up backfiring.
He usually gets about 10 hours of sleep (goes down around 7:30 and usually up around 6 or 6:30).
God says... mastoid's triumph loll materializing castigating pin's announce nebulous assented wiz's piano preferring slice's laterals correspondence sirens quintessences queasier mucilage impoverishing muddies radiance's stagnant coloring thatching's physiques erecting meddlers Aleppo's tumor uncouples consultant
My only advice: Seek professional assistance. Now.
As a parent, you want to remain calm and not accidentally start giving a child a bunch of problems that he may not actually have. At the same time, it's quite useful to have somebody's opinion who's seen hundreds of different kids and can provide you with some context.
So find an expert, and then go spend some time talking to them -- both with and without the kid. At the end of the day, it's your decision what to do, but it's always good to talk to somebody with a bit wider view than you might have. After all, it's basically the same thing you're doing now on HN, except this would be talking to somebody who actually specializes in these things.
Yesterday my wife took the kids to the beach and tried to get a photo of the three of them together. In the sequence you see him pull our 3-year old down and then start chewing on his fingers while he's smacking our 1-year old in the back (not hard but quick repeated pats). The last shot is him staring at the camera with his fingers in his mouth and his other hand hitting the side of his head.
It's an incredibly sad photo for my wife and I to look at. He's obviously tormented by something internally but nobody we've worked with has a clue what it is or how to help him cope with it.
Do you have a relative that it he could go and stay with for a time? Moving to a new location can break people out of the behavioural mould that have got stuck in and having him spend some time in a new location with new people might allow him stop his self-distructive behaviour.
Somewhere in our firstborn's terrible twos, my wife and I also were trying everything, and nothing was working. Here's the big thing I figured out:
I'm used to working with computer programs and computers. If you give computers the right input, you get the right output. Right then and there. Kids are not nearly that deterministic. When you have a big issue like this, you can do the exact, perfect, correct action, and your son would still likely respond badly. This makes it really hard to judge how good your actions are when you naturally measure your actions by your son's responses. This results in a desperate flailing around trying to find something that works.
With our son, I finally realized that I had to just make a plan with the best I knew so far, stick to it, and keep a good humor throughout. A change in my child's thinking will pretty much only happen when they decide to change. You create the conditions where there's obvious, immediate feedback, avoid turning it into a personal fight, and one day they'll wake up and stop battling.
(If you'd like to talk specifics, or anything else, feel free to email me.)
One strategy that works sometimes is defuse and distract. When the kid is fighting against you and not listening, go to "oh, so you want to be tickled" and get them laughing long enough to forget that they were mad or defiant.
Or suggest silly alternatives -- put his pants on his head if he fights getting dressed, or pretend-feed his food to the teddy bear, and the plant, and the microwave, etc., if he won't eat it.
Timeouts with the kid alone don't work well for us either; but sitting with them and waiting until they sit still and settle down does sometimes.
The hard part is always time. With enough patient one-on-one grownup time we can get through any one defiant fight well enough, but when you are in a rush and the other kids need attention too... it is hard.
I got this one from a parenting book. I tried it one time with my kid, and now we have an agreement when she misbehaves in public I will tell her "What the heck!" and she will remember to snap out of it. It kind of works, not perfect, but it surely helped.
http://parenting.stackexchange.com/
https://www.amazon.com/Unconditional-Parenting-Moving-Reward...
https://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen/dp/14516638...
https://www.amazon.com/Highly-Sensitive-Child-Children-Overw...
https://www.amazon.com/No-Drama-Discipline-Whole-Brain-Nurtu...
https://www.amazon.com/Whole-Brain-Child-Revolutionary-Strat...
https://www.amazon.com/Explosive-Child-Understanding-Frustra...
https://www.amazon.com/Simplicity-Parenting-Extraordinary-Ca...
https://www.amazon.com/1-2-3-Magic-Effective-Discipline-Chil...
When my kids did something my husband did not like, he would take away a video game or lock up their controllers to make them suffer. He did not give them back until a set time had passed, even if their behavior improved.
In contrast, I took away a game or the controllers if the games per se were the cause of the problem. If they were fighting over a particular game or if they were taking a "10 minute" break from doing school work that turned into 2 hours of gaming. I would let them have it back if they resolved their problem or finished their school work.
My kids were vey loyal to me. They resented their dad and lied to him and so forth. They were not at all cooperative with a punishment model.
I have a few posts on a private parenting blog I am trying to develop and may eventually publish publicly. If you are interested in getting an invitation and reading what is there, send me an email with the subject "Memoirs of a mom".