There definitely needs to be a more fluid/integrated means to discover new stories. The home page could be split down the middle, showing new stories to the right, or there could be a more feature-rich (and visible/accessible/usable/seductive/natural/etc) "upvote" page that allows searching, browsing, and filtering through submissions to discover ones to vote on. There could also be a slight weighting of votes (though not much) to create a bias toward more reliable (or longstanding) voters, or to infer which submissions the currently viewing user is likely to upvote. The bias likely has to be slight, as one part of the game is to show the global/absolute top stories, while also getting in stories the specific user is likely to find "upvote worthy."
Also, randomly surfacing new submissions to get a sampling of up or down votes seems essential. This would allow a greater spread/certainty when a submission does make it to the front page, and would also be fairer to promising submissions (they won't die prematurely due to lack of opportunity to be upvoted). It would also minimize gaming of the system and the relevance of "time of day."
Also, the gravity concept is good (so stories eventually die), but it's a bit too absolute/aggressive.
There should also be normalization by total number of impressions and up/down votes, such that raw volume doesn't overwhelm quality with lower volume. That is, even if confidence intervals are used (which I don't really like), then up/down votes are an estimate of overall up/down vote percentages, which is what's relevant (the submissions most likely to be upvoted (meaning "best") are what should be shown first). Also, maybe volume matters somewhat (many votes implying a lot of interest), but it's better to separate this out and factor it in independently.
For example, each signed in user that clicks on a link has a probability/likelihood they'll vote, so that could convert their impressions into an expectation which could then be compared to reality (how many upvotes are actually recorded). The higher the upvotes (compared to what was expected), the better the submission. This can then be combined with the other scoring methods (and slight personalization-- maybe a certain percentage of front page entries are personalized and the rest based on absolute rankings, rather than having everything be personalized, or breaking them up into separate sections) to stabilize, refine, and make more accurate submission ranking/sorting.
There isn't a problem with a downvote button. And there isn't even a problem with it being abused (it being abused negatively affecting rankings is a sign the ranking algorithm is poor). The problem is with downvotes not being properly factored in (and weighed up or down depending on the source of the vote, and the user viewing the resulting front page articles). In fact, adding a downvote button would make it easier to rank new submissions (and it's also straightforward to filter (or normalize) out abusers of upvotes or downvotes).
Also, maybe passive actions could be factored in (or things could be added that would serve as good "signals" for "front page worthiness") to increase the overall number of votes, such that a handful of users don't control what makes it to the front page and to allow each article score to be more reliable/accurate.
> The home page could be split down the middle, showing new stories to the right
I'd like to give that try. I'd like a random sort of the stories from the last 24 hours to reduce the connection to posting time and give some variety on each refresh.
I often search HN when I find a new product/blog just to see what the reaction is. I am quite surprised when I might see 20 decent submission from a source or about a product that barely have an upvote between them. It makes me wonder whether the blog/product pages that do hit the front-page are really that organic at all.
There's a 'New' button on the top row that does this. I read it daily. I don't see the benefit of splitting the page - the greate thing about HN is it's plain interface. If it got as busy on the eye as say, Reddit, I feel the experience would not be as good.
A simple and easy fix would be to add 'Random' as an option on the top bar which shows a list of random posts (that are not already on the front page) from the past 7 days.
New is time-sorted so its first page is pretty much only submissions within the last hour. Unless you visit every hour or dig deep, you are stuck with the time sensitivity problem.
Personally I just don't visit "new" unless desperate. I see it as a deliberate decision to take on the duty of filtering the fire-hose which is not something I'm willing to commit to. I do however want better surfacing of submissions...
By giving it some presence on the front-page then I would at least be likely to upvote a submission that catches my eye. When they have already hit the front-page, its generally irrelevant - they have enough votes to not make it worth upvoting.
> the greate thing about HN is it's plain interface
Yep I agree. I'd only suggest trying it as an addition rather than a replacement for the current front-page. Maybe it could live under "new" as an alternative view e.g. add a pure-text tab-strip of view options on the new page. It would not add much UX complexity except for those that want it.
I've been experimenting with an alternative ranking based on activity (votes and comments) [0]. I've definitely found some interesting stories because of it.
Thanks for letting me know. Safari doesn't like the use of const yet and not using a transpiler at the moment. Should be fixed, but will clean it up properly.
I'm taking # of votes plus comments over time since submission as a proxy for activity per hour.
This is still a pretty quick hack at the moment, but I've enjoyed using it over the past few weeks.
What I'm focused on at the moment is playing with alerts when a story starts trending. I really enjoy knowing about the latest topics but would like to avoid excessively refreshing the page :)
11 comments
[ 18.3 ms ] story [ 641 ms ] threadAlso, randomly surfacing new submissions to get a sampling of up or down votes seems essential. This would allow a greater spread/certainty when a submission does make it to the front page, and would also be fairer to promising submissions (they won't die prematurely due to lack of opportunity to be upvoted). It would also minimize gaming of the system and the relevance of "time of day."
Also, the gravity concept is good (so stories eventually die), but it's a bit too absolute/aggressive.
There should also be normalization by total number of impressions and up/down votes, such that raw volume doesn't overwhelm quality with lower volume. That is, even if confidence intervals are used (which I don't really like), then up/down votes are an estimate of overall up/down vote percentages, which is what's relevant (the submissions most likely to be upvoted (meaning "best") are what should be shown first). Also, maybe volume matters somewhat (many votes implying a lot of interest), but it's better to separate this out and factor it in independently.
For example, each signed in user that clicks on a link has a probability/likelihood they'll vote, so that could convert their impressions into an expectation which could then be compared to reality (how many upvotes are actually recorded). The higher the upvotes (compared to what was expected), the better the submission. This can then be combined with the other scoring methods (and slight personalization-- maybe a certain percentage of front page entries are personalized and the rest based on absolute rankings, rather than having everything be personalized, or breaking them up into separate sections) to stabilize, refine, and make more accurate submission ranking/sorting.
There isn't a problem with a downvote button. And there isn't even a problem with it being abused (it being abused negatively affecting rankings is a sign the ranking algorithm is poor). The problem is with downvotes not being properly factored in (and weighed up or down depending on the source of the vote, and the user viewing the resulting front page articles). In fact, adding a downvote button would make it easier to rank new submissions (and it's also straightforward to filter (or normalize) out abusers of upvotes or downvotes).
Also, maybe passive actions could be factored in (or things could be added that would serve as good "signals" for "front page worthiness") to increase the overall number of votes, such that a handful of users don't control what makes it to the front page and to allow each article score to be more reliable/accurate.
I'd like to give that try. I'd like a random sort of the stories from the last 24 hours to reduce the connection to posting time and give some variety on each refresh.
I often search HN when I find a new product/blog just to see what the reaction is. I am quite surprised when I might see 20 decent submission from a source or about a product that barely have an upvote between them. It makes me wonder whether the blog/product pages that do hit the front-page are really that organic at all.
A simple and easy fix would be to add 'Random' as an option on the top bar which shows a list of random posts (that are not already on the front page) from the past 7 days.
Personally I just don't visit "new" unless desperate. I see it as a deliberate decision to take on the duty of filtering the fire-hose which is not something I'm willing to commit to. I do however want better surfacing of submissions...
By giving it some presence on the front-page then I would at least be likely to upvote a submission that catches my eye. When they have already hit the front-page, its generally irrelevant - they have enough votes to not make it worth upvoting.
> the greate thing about HN is it's plain interface
Yep I agree. I'd only suggest trying it as an addition rather than a replacement for the current front-page. Maybe it could live under "new" as an alternative view e.g. add a pure-text tab-strip of view options on the new page. It would not add much UX complexity except for those that want it.
[0] http://beta.frontpageping.com
This is still a pretty quick hack at the moment, but I've enjoyed using it over the past few weeks.
What I'm focused on at the moment is playing with alerts when a story starts trending. I really enjoy knowing about the latest topics but would like to avoid excessively refreshing the page :)