Dell EqualLogic™ and EqualLogic-branded products, Dell|EMC, EMC and VCE-branded products, Dell Compellent™ and Compellent-branded products, Dell KACE™ and KACE-branded products, Dell Force10™ and Force10-branded products, PowerVault ML6000 tape libraries, PowerVault DL and DR products, Dell SonicWALL™ and SonicWALL-branded products, Dell Wyse™ and Wyse-branded products, Dell Quest™, Quest™, ScriptLogic™ and VKernel™ branded products, Dell Software branded products, Dell Data Protection | Rapid Recovery and Dell Data Protection | Rapid Recovery branded products, Dell StatSoft and StatSoft-branded products, non-Dell-branded enterprise products, enterprise software, and customized products may not be returned at any time.
Seriously, Dell has no excuse for how ridiculously buried this information is. Let's take these terms and stick them where they actually belong, right next to all the other crap they make me agree to EVERY time I purchase something:
Well, let's be honest - Dell has no excuse for not allowing returns on these items. That's unbelievable, tbh. One of the reasons I buy most of this kind of stuff from Amazon.
How is it even legal? Consumer protection laws are a thing in tons of countries specifically to stop companies exploiting people with eg, unfair refund policies... Steam/Valve recently learned that the hard way in Australia, Apple in Europe etc.
In the EU the consumer is protected to a degree. In any case from what I gather we are looking here at a B2B and not B2C transaction. In B2B land company can get away legally with other terms as it is assumed they are dealing on more equal terms.
It may be for protection of other customers. A bad actor could order some of those devices, flash the firmware with an evil version(or somehow modify it), and then send it back to dell.
(Shrug) So send it back to the factory for reconditioning. Charge the customer a reasonable restocking fee to cover the associated costs, if it happens enough to be a problem.
What? The factory can't restore the firmware to as-new condition? That's a bit of a problem in itself, isn't it?
It was just a guess - I have no real idea why Dell wouldn't allow returns on those items. And firmware was just an example. You could also solder in a completely separate computer if you really wanted to. Then you need to open the whole thing up and do visual inspections, reflash the firmware, test it, etc. It may not be worth it for $500, or cost close enough to $500 that they just don't allow returns.
There are certainly worse things you could put on a resume. It sounds silly at first, but I'd feel better about hiring someone who had hundreds or thousands of satisfied customers with few or no unhappy ones.
I sympathise, and I appreciate someone raising awareness of the situation. Perhaps the negative attention will prompt Dell to review this policy.
That said, is it really normal to expect to be able to return a non-faulty product once it's shipped, or unreasonable of Dell to refuse such returns if they don't want to sell on that basis?
In my country (the UK) there are consumer protection laws that include various rights to return goods purchased remotely for a short period even if they aren't defective. In principle, these are supposed to allow for not being able to inspect the actual product the way you could in person if you bought from a store. However, for better or worse, business customers do not enjoy the same legal protections as private individuals, and a lot of potentially one-sided terms that would be unlikely to stand up in a B2C context because of statutory protections seem to be routine in B2B sales.
> is it really normal to expect to be able to return a non-faulty product once it's shipped, or unreasonable of Dell to refuse such returns
It's normal for people to make mistakes, including people who are Dell customers. Good, normal businesses accommodate their customers, try to help them succeed and build good relationships, and don't treat them like suckers, potential criminals or bad schoolchildren when something goes wrong. They don't cite terms, they find solutions.
But for a business customer, there is an easy solution to this problem: Find a vendor who does want your business. Be glad it happened with a $500 order and not something more expensive; it's a cheap lesson and the sooner it happened the better.
My guess is that Dell will lose more when the customer leaves and tells their friends (ignoring the HN post) than they would over one return. But that's their problem, not yours.
Clearly there are cultural differences in expectations here. I respect the way it works in the US, but i personally like the UK approach explained eloquently above, as I get just enough protection and no more.
Avoiding being (indirectly) exposed to the other customers' fickle ordering with scant attention seems a good thing to me (not that I'm implying this occurred in this case, I see this was a genuine mistake). I'm sure some will say that a big company can swallow the costs, but clearly that money has to come from somewhere and it's from prices higher than they would otherwise be, passed on to everyone.
Keyword in your text: "consumer". Not sure what happens when you buy as a business customer, but at many of the extended protections are specifically for consumers. Business customers are supposed to know much better what they are getting themselves into, since a) they have to regularly be much more aware of terms and conditions and legal stuff then consumers and b) they are themselves sellers and not just buyers.
At least for Germany I can point to several web pages that show that business buyers don't have those protections (German, sorry):
Nope, this wouldn't be illegal in the EU. Consumer protection law is a consumer protection law -- meant for when you buy stuff as a person. If you however buy stuff as a business entity consumer law do not apply, so you are just as fucked as the person who made the pastebin. This is also why the likes of Dell and HP sell business services and these services don't come cheap (and when you don't get them and your server dies you are basically fucked.)
Protip for freelancers and small businesses: While it might look really cool, don't buy IT equipment as a business (unless you want to pay extra for services guaranteeing continous operation of said equipment), but as a consumer. This means your equipment will fall under consumer law and means that (for example) when you want to return a item the store you bought it at they will have to comply.
There could be tax complications here, using a personal credit card to buy the computer and then transfer it to the business with an expense report. It's a lot more straightforward to use the company credit card even if you're a sole proprietor.
> Protip for freelancers and small businesses: While it might look really cool, don't buy IT equipment as a business (unless you want to pay extra for services guaranteeing continous operation of said equipment), but as a consumer.
This doesn't pay off. If you're earning more than 15K EUR per year, you have to charge VAT. If you buy stuff as consumer you're not eligible for a VAT return. If you're any kind of limited liability company, stuff needs to be on the company books. You certainly can buy as a private person and resell to company, but that just increased the price by about 20%. Plus: selling stuff to the company makes the tax authorities look really hard at your papers since at least in germany, if prices are not market rate you might just have committed a criminal offence (verdeckte Gewinnentnahme). Talk to your tax accountant before pulling stunts like this.
Did you buy it with a credit card? Most of them have additional protections that let you fix situations like this. Not sure if it applies to returns, but for instance I know you get a guaranteed extra warranty with anything you buy with your amex past the manufacturers, etc..
I'm considering this - but I used the boss's debit card so I'm not sure it'll work. Debit cards being "same as cash" in the USA, not sure those terms protect wrongful purchases. But - can't hurt to try.
Credit card gets stolen - I call bank, they remove charge, and I don't pay until matter is resolved.
Debit card gets stolen - All my money is taken out of my bank. I now cannot pay my rent or buy groceries. I tell bank, and they start an investigation. Maybe in 90 days I get my money back.
Never ever use a debit online. In fact, don't use in person. Debit cards are fine for ATM to get cash, for anything else use CC. (Plus CC gives you 2% cash back if you shop wise, that is huge).
Using your credit card for everything is a great way to find yourself deeply in debt. It's (intentionally!) easy to overspend when using a credit card, and end up carrying a balance.
Also many people (like me) don't have good enough credit to get a fancy-pants 2% back credit card.
I personally use a Simple card for spending and only transfer spending money to it weekly - helps keep spending in check and limits my losses if it were lost / stolen. I've been using a method like that for several years and avoiding credit cards as much as possible and I'm now very close to being completely out of debt, which never would have happened if I continued to rely on my own self-will to not overspend on a credit card.
Using your credit card for everything is a great way to find yourself deeply in debt. It's (intentionally!) easy to overspend when using a credit card, and end up carrying a balance.
This is why I have a second checking account that I transfer money to from my primary checking every few days to match the current credit card balance. That way, my primary checking always contains money free of credit card obligation. (Obviously, I then pay off the statement balance from this account every month.)
> Using your credit card for everything is a great way to find yourself deeply in debt. It's (intentionally!) easy to overspend when using a credit card, and end up carrying a balance.
The first rule of using credit cards for fun and profit is to never carry a balance. Ever.
Now, there is an exception to this rule, on the following conditions (all must apply):
1. You do not pay any interest (yes, possible, many cards have promotions, especially store/brand cards)
2. The purchase is for a very long-term item, like major electronic appliance or a alike, that you will be using for several years at least.
3. Due to some circumstances you couldn't foresee you could not save for the purchase upfront and you absolutely need it right now - e.g., you refrigerator suddenly died and you need a new one ASAP.
4. You know and calculated the monthly payment which allows you to pay off the whole sum in a year or less (and of course before promotional no-interest period expires), and this monthly payment is less than what you would be able to save if (3) did not apply. If this rule is not true, you can not afford it, look for a cheaper alternative. Also, never pay just a minimum payment, this is a trap.
Credit card balance is a loan, and these rules are a way to make it into a cheap loan. But be careful - it's like a can of gasoline, can be very handy to get you into places you want to be if you handle it right, but handle it wrong and you can end up badly burned or worse.
If you follow these rules, you can use credit card with relative safety, as even if you overspend one month, you'll have to cut back next month to pay for it. Also improves your credit score :) But if you notice you can't use it without carrying a balance - don't use it at all.
> But if you notice you can't use it without carrying a balance - don't use it at all.
That was literally my entire point :-)
I have no doubt that many people have this figured out, but my point is that 'use your credit card for everything always' isn't necessarily good advice for everyone.
I don't know if (1) is strictly necessary in the context of (3). But then:
5. You refrain from further transactions with that card, since your grace period is gone and new purchases will immediately accrue interest.
(Although I suppose you could operate in an different paradigm where you make payments as frequently as possible with most all of your spending money, and then new purchases on the card are just effectively taking away from that payment)
In theory, yes, even non-zero-interest loan can be good. In practice, I'd rather not bother given how easy it is to make a mistake and end up overpaying massively because you failed to read some fine print or account for some obscure rule of how purchases combine and accrue interest. Zero is easy. Non-zero is complex and you are not in the position of advantage there as they know their rules much better than you, so in most cases it's not worth it. You can do it right if you have the knowledge, but then surely advice from some random guy on the internet is not going to change your opinion anyway :)
I completely agree. I just wanted to highlight a major one of those traps that can get you if you do start carrying a balance. Doing so should only ever be out of complete necessity, so whether you can get an interest-free offer seems somewhat beside the point.
FWIW it feels like the additional complexity of those offers coupled with the relaxing of standard payment behavior is a great way to trip people up.
Personally, not having things like Simple around for the ~20 years I've been living on my own, I already have a system of budgeting (Python+SQLite for the last few years) and zero impulse buying habits outside a greasy lunch from my favorite food cart now and then.
So for me, putting mortgage, utils, and food on the CC and pay it off with my first check of the month works just fine. And I don't have to switch financial providers.
Especially hesitant seeing they're owned by a multinational bank with a dubious history. My local CU seems much more approachable and personable, despite Simple's trendy "human" branding.
In the early days (1960s/1970s), credit card companies welcomed (perhaps even sponsored? I don't remember) the legislated responsibility for risk because it encouraged the uptake of credit cards.
Nowadays, of course, almost everyone has a card and almost every merchant needs to take them. So the card cartels were able to shift part of the burden onto the merchants, and in particular the smaller ones. But not all of it.
Banks managed to evade most of the credit card rules in debit cards. Debit cards are a MUCH better deal for banks (they don't incur interest -- except for overdraw fees, but they also don't carry ANY of the protections credit cards do).
> Never ever use a debit online. In fact, don't use in person. Debit cards are fine for ATM to get cash, for anything else use CC. (Plus CC gives you 2% cash back if you shop wise, that is huge).
As an alternative: if you can get a credit card at all, just get one. You don't need to worry about "benefits" (cash rebates, miles or whatever, just get one that doesn't charge you an annual fee.
When you buy something online or swipe, send the CC come any a check that same day. There's no rule saying you have to pay them only when you get a bill. If you do this you'll never accrue interest.
There were folks who wrote that they needed the discipline of cash or a checkbook. But they need plastic for certain transactions. This is an option for forced discipline while still having the plastic option when you need it.
this was to address a concern someone had that a CC makes it hard for them to manage their finances. So the idea is to make the CC basically a proxy for their checkbook, so they could get the benefits of cash/checking in contexts where a card was required -- an avoid getting screwed by the debit card rules.
My debit card is a Visa with the same protections as a credit card, and in the rare cases where I've had fraudulent charges, I was granted an immediate temporary credit back of the funds, which was made permanent upon the completion of the investigation.
Or you could keep multiple accounts, with just what you're going to spend in the next week or two in your child going account, and everything else in savings. You could still lose some money (hopefully to be refunded), by not enough to sink you.
I already have multiple accounts. But to give up 2% cash back I get on my credit card to use a debit card.. now you want me to make a shell game of bank accounts? Just so I can use debit? Makes no sense, Credit solves these and so many other problems without extra work.
> Debit card gets stolen - All my money is taken out of my bank. I now cannot pay my rent or buy groceries. I tell bank, and they start an investigation. Maybe in 90 days I get my money back.
Not true - if you report fraudulent charges the money must be returned to your account within 10 days until the investigation is concluded according to federal law. Many banks will return the money much immediately as well - if yours doesn't, get a new bank.
Visa and Mastercard, who control 100% of the debit card processing in the US, both have 0-liability policies on debit cards, and as the payment processors, they have required banks to follow suit, and to follow an immediate refund policy on fraud as well.
Oh so I only get my bank account drained for 10 days if I use my debit.
Please tell me why I would use Debit again? Remember I also lose the 2% cashback I get on my credit, on top of my bank account being drained for 10 days and perhaps my mortgage payment bouncing if I didn't catch it in time.
My experience with debit card fraud has been identical to that of credit card fraud: instantly reversed charges, including (once) immediately reversed overdraft charges.
What bank took 90 days to refund fraudulent purchases? I'd like to know to avoid them forever.
(It's true that using a debit card means whatever checking account you used could get zeroed out; it's probably a good idea just to open a second account to use for online stuff, if you don't already have an account that serves a similar purpose).
I think it's only in the past decade or so that it was legally required to refund disputed charges within 10 days, so it could be an older story.
However, lot's of banks make it really easy to overdraw funds when using a debit card. In particular the ordering of transactions can cause you to overdraw (consider charge/refund/charge when a mistake was made; the bank could order it charge/charge/refund and you are now potentially overdrawn despite no day ending with you having a negative balance).
In particular, my past experience with Chase is that they pull crappy stuff like this all the time, nickel-and-dime-you with charges and then act surprised when you close all of your accounts with them.
You're saying that if you had a debit card fraud incident that pushed your Chase card into overdraft, they wouldn't reverse the overdraft charge? Even Key Bank did that for me, back in 2005. I have never had a Citibank overdraft charge stick, either --- for any reason.
Have you been asking them to reverse charges? Any time I have any trouble with any account ever, I always say "can you check if this generated any overdraft charges, and if so, can you reverse them"; it seems to work.
The overdraft thing was actually a shift in topic; in the event of a non-fraudulent charge that is reversed by the merchant things like that can happen (with me, it was an airplane ticket where the airline rep messed up, did a refund and charged the correct flight all on one phone call), when the two charges go through before the refund (even if they all post in the same business day), there is an overdraft charge and Chase refused to refund it.
The point was that my experience with Chase sans fraudulent charges makes me believe that it would take months to see the money in the days before it was illegal for them to do so.
Since you mentioned Citibank, I've never banked with them, but I did have a visa with them back in college. I was young so only had the card for 18 months, but I'd never had a single late payment when a bill got put in the wrong mailbox in my dorm. By the time I got it, it was 2 days before it was due. I called up Citi (2 days before the due date) and asked them if they could waive the late fee/interest provided it was posted the following day. The answer was no and they had an additional fee (which they also wouldn't waive) for doing a bank transfer, which would save me from the late fee. I told the I'd do that and to please close the account. Asking to close the account got me to talk to his manager, but they didn't bend on any of the fees.
I've had much better customer experience with credit cards from Discover, American Express and (somewhat ironically given my banking story) Chase.
Debit cards have some protection, but you don't get your money back until resolution. Therefore, you're relying on the bank to fight for your money. With a credit card, they're fighting for their money, which they're much happier to do.
Completely false - federal law requires money to be returned with in 10 days for fraud, however MasterCard and Visa both require may of their banks to refund immediately. If your bank doesn't do so, get a new one!
My bank eventually relented when I demanded an ATM-only card rather than a debit card. The person helping me was like, "no way we'd ever allow that" and then, "oh wow the system says you can have that, let me find that box of ATM-only cards."
> As an aside, you should never use a debit card online, ever, ever, ever.
For many people in Europe ( including myself ) the only other online option is a bank transfer, which also has the risk of loss of funds if you mistype the target account number[0]
The workaround for only having a debit card is to have it linked to a buffer account that only holds sufficient funds for the planned purchases.
[0] when submitting such a payment my bank kindly notes that they may not be able to reclaim my payment should I make a typo.
What's this mythical European country where you cant get a credit card? There are places where most people don't have them, sure, but they tend to be very easy to get.
If you are self-employed sometimes it is difficult to obtain a credit card in some european countries.
Even if you obtain one, european credit limits are nothing like the american counterparts. They usually are much smaller.
I have the opposite problem though. I live in Austria and can't get a Visa/Mastercard debit card. The concept is totally foreign here. They use the stupid Maestro debit cards, which are useless online and in the United States.
If anyone can tell me how I can obtain a Visa/Mastercard debit card here, he will have my eternal gratitude.
Typically debit cards are run as credit when used online, so it's effectively a Mastercard or Visa with different payment terms on the back end. You should have all the same rights and features as any other Mastercard or Visa for those purchases.
I agree with the other fellow that you should avoid using them, though. You may have the same rights, but the potential consequences are different. A credit card which you pay off each month provides the same basic functionality but with more safety. Plus you get to make 0.01% of interest off the float.
You can dispute a charge on a debit card the same as on a credit card. Just say the merchandise was not what you ordered and you attempted to return it and they wouldn't take it back. Include in your dispute the email from them saying they won't take it back (or notes about the phone call).
They will suddenly want to get it back, and most likely will not argue against the dispute.
The rules are pretty clear on this stuff from Visa and Mastercard-- retailers are on the hook. With the kind of fraud they deal with ,being able to actually get the item back from the customer is a good thing for them.
Their return policy is asinine and counter productive. Maybe they think that so many customers will just eat the charge it is worth it.
But I would highly doubt you will lose your dispute (unless your bank is terrible.)
I have disputed various things over the years, when running into bad merchants. Only once has the dispute not gone in my favor -- and I no longer do business with that bank (Wells Fargo, it was a particularly egregious situation too. Over a $60 dispute they have lost $400 a year in revenue.)
You can dispute a charge on a debit card the same as on a credit card. Just say the merchandise was not what you ordered and you attempted to return it and they wouldn't take it back.
But in this case, it sounds like the merchandise was what was ordered, it's just that the order was a mistake.
Disputing that on the basis you gave would be unethical at best, and quite possibly a violation of both the buyer's card agreement and the law as well.
A credit card charge-back doesn't leave the buyer off the hook for the merchandise, it just means he gets the money back on his credit card. If the merchant believes the money is still owed, he is free to pursue the buyer directly for any amount charged back, they can bill you and if you don't pay, send your account to collections or sue in small claims court.
Refuse to accept delivery on the second order, this will legally force Dell to refund. If Dell still refuses to refund, refute the charges with your card company, they are legally required to chargeback if you refused delivery; they will likely rule in your favor on the first order as well if you provide detailed documentation.
You may be able to get some level of relief from your credit card. My American Express card comes with the following benefit for free:
"If you try to return an eligible item within 90 days from the date of purchase and the merchant won't take it back, American Express may refund the full purchase price (excluding shipping and handling), up to $300 per item, up to a maximum of $1,000 per calendar year per Card account, if you purchased it entirely with your eligible American Express® Card. Please read important exclusions and restrictions.‡"
I've successfully used it, so I know it's a real benefit. One notable exclusion is software (presumably because you could have copied it), hardware should be fine.
But yeah, it's only $300. Perhaps the fancy AmEx cards have a more robust benefit. It's pretty nice for "free" though.
It's not just bad business practice. At the company I work at, our anecdotal experience with Sonicwall products has just been shitty. You buy a router and you still need to pay extra to activate advanced features. What a shitty product.
In contrast, we bought a whole bunch of Mikrotik's RouterBoards, they're really inexpensive and come with really powerful features that you don't need to pay extra for. We're starting to deploy them everywhere and we'll eventually phase out the shitty Sonicwall.
Ubiquiti and Mikrotiks are a good match for each other. I've no experience with Ubiquiti's routing equipment, but their wireless devices (big backhaul dishes all the way down to the small office AP's) are fantastic. Backed by a Mikrotik, you have a very powerful and flexible package for a fraction of the cost of the competitors.
Many WISP's use Ubiquiti wiresless equipment paired with Mikrotik's on the back end.
We use UniFi APs, Unifi Video and EdgeRouters/EdgeSwitches across all of our locations. Mikrotik was next on the list of things to check out, but in the 18 months since we've deployed them we haven't had a single issue.
I recommend attending one of their conferences if you ever get the chance. In the US, they usually have one annually in Las Vegas[1] (a lot of fun!, and they have one coming up soon in October). They also do conferences around the world[2].
It's been a few years since I attended one, but they used to (and might still) give out free products at the conferences. Usually it was a free sample of one of their new products. For example, I got an original UniFi device when they launched that product line. Installed it at home (way overkill for a small house!), and it's still working perfectly all these years later (has to be close to 5-6 years).
Ubiquiti's conferences are a lot less expensive than the Mikrotik MUM's (conferences), although Mikrotik's offer a lot of training and what-not as well as normal conference talks.
Ugh, yeah. Ran into that same scenario while working with my third ever consulting client. The features we wanted were advertised as built in, with no (obvious) mention of it being a kind of "in app purchase".
I felt like a total asshole telling this client we needed to shell out another few hundred bones. Then the thing ran like shit (need a lot of rebooting) and we replaced it after 9 months.
Mikrotiks are remarkably powerful if you have knowledge and are willing and able to configure them properly. They are rock-solid routers with a great feature set, and we use them at almost all of our customers (except ones where we still haven't replaced older routers).
Sonicwalls have a comparable feature set for hardware and basic networking, but also add the ability to do some UTM on the device - things like content filtering, antivirus, etc. for traffic passing through. There's nothing comparable that I've ever heard of on the Mikrotiks.
> things like content filtering, antivirus, etc. for traffic passing through
In fairness, I believe these are subscription based services on the sonicwall (at least it was when I had a sonicwall). The same features would normally be implemented in different devices, and could still be with a mikrotik.
And I don't see a reason why something couldn't be done on the mikrotik - either natively with some scripting, or by making use of the meta-router functionality (a linux vm running on the router which you can pass traffic too and have advanced stuff done)
They are not rock-solid routers and frequently ship buggy releases, especially if you are using advanced features or their wireless offerings. They are great, they have a ton of powerful features, but don't use them unless you plan to spend time maintaining them and learning a lot about them.
Manipulating their firewall rules is also a really cool way to intro yourself to iptables concepts.
Paying for "active" features is pretty standard in enterprise though, especially since Meraki took off. It's all a product-as-service game. A lot of Enterprise companies are moving towards making the hardware free if you sign for the long term service packages.
Yeah, the PayWALL base features are very limited unless you purchase the "advanced" features packages, and there are a lot of them. The basic functionality included for free in a $40 linksys/cisco require a subscription fee to use on the SonicWALL. Some of the extra features like gateway av/content filtering can peg the CPU on the device, making the lower-end SonicWALLs not a very good purchase for anyone wanting to do more than forward some ports. They allow consumers to purchase DPI on the lower end devices but they lack the CPU power required, and turning it on can bring your entire network down.
This is why, if you're a small company unable to have a direct, strategic, named Dell sales relationship, you buy from Dell through a reseller. ALWAYS USE A RESELLER. The reseller has the strategic relationship, they'll go to bat for you, and you don't have to mess around on twitter trying to get your $500 back.
The idea is you use a reseller for all your products, they manage the relationship with the manufacturer or publisher and work to get you the best price/service. If you have doubts about using a "middle man" keep them honest with a 2nd or 3rd quote, sometimes direct every now and then. But working with one rep for all your products can be a huge boon to doing business in savings of money and time.
Which VAR do your work for or which would you recommend?
I wouldn't know who to work with to buy Dell, aside from typing "dell.com" and buying it. I thought that was their whole business model -- direct sales, no inventory, JIT shipping and the like.
A company I used to work for bought a huge (for the time) NAS full of drives... when one of the drives failed they (IBM) wouldn't send a replacement, as it was "discontinued"... if it weren't for the VAR, they never would have gotten the drive replaced... something like the following (3-way call).
IBM: "Well, we're IBM and you're $300k annual spending wouldn't be a huge loss"
VAR: "Well, this is Bill from VAR, and we do over $40M in purchases a year, and this will be very enlightening in future purchase recommendations."
IBM: "Uhhh... hold on for a moment please..."
We tried getting a second quote, and the VAR said: "Dell tells us you are already speaking to another VAR about this equipment, so they won't supply us a quote."
Note, for big purchases you can't actually comparison shop VARs due to something called deal registration. Basically the reseller tells the vendor about the deal, and is protected by the vendor not letting anyone quote a lower price.
Upsetting a business customer by not refunding a $500 purchase isn't worth it. I had a longer comment attempting to rationalize this policy, but deleted it and gave up because there's just no way this is good for business.
Good luck with this in Maine... I believe Maine has a 30 day implied warranty law that makes all products returnable, with a few exceptional categories.
I'm not exactly sure why people are so upset about this. It was a mistake made by the customer on a product that could be a security nightmare for somebody else if it was tampered with.
If they didn't have this policy and I was a state sponsored intelligence agency I would be buying, tampering, and returning as many as I could.
Thanks to Snowden, we know that intelligence agencies already intercept shipments, they have no need to buy & return stuff.
Plus, just about every device with a computer/storage inside could in theory be tampered with. So, your argument seems to imply that a 'no return' policy should be enforced on most equipment. That's just insane.
I can relate to Dell shady tactics and deceit. I too was a big fan of Dell products and recommended them plenty over the many years. Black Friday 2015 I got wind of Dell having a great deal on Xbox "bundle". I waited all day for the timing to be right so I could order it when it went live.
When it finally arrived at my house, I was missing several items that were part of the "bundle" I paid for. I was Missing the headset as well as the extra controller and free game they advertised. Calling their support was an exercise in patience as it turned into a debate about what I ordered. Dell had purposely sent the included receipt with tactically chosen wording that I had just ordered a normal Xbox bundle they always sold. A classic bait-n-switch.
I had an argument with the support person about that being wrong yet they insisted, DESPITE my time/date of order showing to purposely take advantage of the BF deal and a screen shot of my order. They still fought it as the included receipt was their trump card. So basically all a company has to do is fix the sent receipt and change the order wording and there is no defense for being taken advantage of? I was livid.
A quick search of the net found out I wasn't alone in this bat/switch Xbox bundle BF deal. Eventually they gave in to the headset and sent me a Dell gift card for the amount to order a headset through them. This was now further proof I had ordered a SPECIAL BF deal as they admitted it by comping the headset. But they still would not budge on the extra controller or the free game.
I decided to try and stick it to them instead for their deceptive tactics and issued a complaint with my credit card for not getting what I paid for. I filed for full amount of purchase of the BF deal and explained what happened to my CC company. They mentioned they had similar complaint already about same thing for someone else. So I did a chargeback. Not intending to get free Xbox but rather try to scare Dell to just make good.
Months went by and I find out Dell fought it, as expected. Dell now was offering me a full refund and to send everything back. I was ready to do just that and buy from elsewhere now BUT, get this, Dell said I had to pay for return shipping! So now instead of getting everything I paid for, they now expect me to be OUT $30 to ship it back with now NOTHING to show for.
So that is where it ended. I gave up. I wasn't getting the advertised controller or free game and just wasn't going to be -$30 at this point for nothing than to prove a point. So I kept the Xbox, paid for it and just accepted Dell has now become a piece of shit company. And I will NEVER buy or recommend to anyone, including many clients, Dell or anything the sell again.
This is irrelevant if you use a proper business account like American Express. You have return protection, are able to return anything within 90 days, if ymthe merchant won't accept it then the payment processor does a charge back and returns your money.
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[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 184 ms ] thread[http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/uscorp1/solutions/us-return-...]
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Was that so hard, Dell? Was it?
The europeans laws offer little protection to companies. Consumer laws apply only when selling directly to consumers.
What? The factory can't restore the firmware to as-new condition? That's a bit of a problem in itself, isn't it?
That said, is it really normal to expect to be able to return a non-faulty product once it's shipped, or unreasonable of Dell to refuse such returns if they don't want to sell on that basis?
In my country (the UK) there are consumer protection laws that include various rights to return goods purchased remotely for a short period even if they aren't defective. In principle, these are supposed to allow for not being able to inspect the actual product the way you could in person if you bought from a store. However, for better or worse, business customers do not enjoy the same legal protections as private individuals, and a lot of potentially one-sided terms that would be unlikely to stand up in a B2C context because of statutory protections seem to be routine in B2B sales.
I've done it with expensive routers/switches from Cisco and SFP+'s from various vendors.
Never had any issues either. Cisco even cross-shipped the gear we wanted.
Although I think corporate account vs one-offs make the difference here ;-)
It's normal for people to make mistakes, including people who are Dell customers. Good, normal businesses accommodate their customers, try to help them succeed and build good relationships, and don't treat them like suckers, potential criminals or bad schoolchildren when something goes wrong. They don't cite terms, they find solutions.
But for a business customer, there is an easy solution to this problem: Find a vendor who does want your business. Be glad it happened with a $500 order and not something more expensive; it's a cheap lesson and the sooner it happened the better.
My guess is that Dell will lose more when the customer leaves and tells their friends (ignoring the HN post) than they would over one return. But that's their problem, not yours.
Clearly there are cultural differences in expectations here. I respect the way it works in the US, but i personally like the UK approach explained eloquently above, as I get just enough protection and no more.
Avoiding being (indirectly) exposed to the other customers' fickle ordering with scant attention seems a good thing to me (not that I'm implying this occurred in this case, I see this was a genuine mistake). I'm sure some will say that a big company can swallow the costs, but clearly that money has to come from somewhere and it's from prices higher than they would otherwise be, passed on to everyone.
At least for Germany I can point to several web pages that show that business buyers don't have those protections (German, sorry):
- http://www.wirtschaftsrecht-news.de/2013/08/widerrufs-und-ru... (no returns for B2B or C2C)
- http://www.shopbetreiber-blog.de/2007/03/22/kein-widerrufsre... (the decision of a court in a case)
Protip for freelancers and small businesses: While it might look really cool, don't buy IT equipment as a business (unless you want to pay extra for services guaranteeing continous operation of said equipment), but as a consumer. This means your equipment will fall under consumer law and means that (for example) when you want to return a item the store you bought it at they will have to comply.
Please note that the Right to Cancel applies to Home customers only.
You return goods by using the Right to Cancel so while not explicitly mentioned it seems to be the same as in the US.
This doesn't pay off. If you're earning more than 15K EUR per year, you have to charge VAT. If you buy stuff as consumer you're not eligible for a VAT return. If you're any kind of limited liability company, stuff needs to be on the company books. You certainly can buy as a private person and resell to company, but that just increased the price by about 20%. Plus: selling stuff to the company makes the tax authorities look really hard at your papers since at least in germany, if prices are not market rate you might just have committed a criminal offence (verdeckte Gewinnentnahme). Talk to your tax accountant before pulling stunts like this.
Candidly, you should never use it for anything other than taking money out of an ATM.
Debit card gets stolen - All my money is taken out of my bank. I now cannot pay my rent or buy groceries. I tell bank, and they start an investigation. Maybe in 90 days I get my money back.
Never ever use a debit online. In fact, don't use in person. Debit cards are fine for ATM to get cash, for anything else use CC. (Plus CC gives you 2% cash back if you shop wise, that is huge).
Also many people (like me) don't have good enough credit to get a fancy-pants 2% back credit card.
I personally use a Simple card for spending and only transfer spending money to it weekly - helps keep spending in check and limits my losses if it were lost / stolen. I've been using a method like that for several years and avoiding credit cards as much as possible and I'm now very close to being completely out of debt, which never would have happened if I continued to rely on my own self-will to not overspend on a credit card.
This is why I have a second checking account that I transfer money to from my primary checking every few days to match the current credit card balance. That way, my primary checking always contains money free of credit card obligation. (Obviously, I then pay off the statement balance from this account every month.)
The first rule of using credit cards for fun and profit is to never carry a balance. Ever.
Now, there is an exception to this rule, on the following conditions (all must apply):
1. You do not pay any interest (yes, possible, many cards have promotions, especially store/brand cards)
2. The purchase is for a very long-term item, like major electronic appliance or a alike, that you will be using for several years at least.
3. Due to some circumstances you couldn't foresee you could not save for the purchase upfront and you absolutely need it right now - e.g., you refrigerator suddenly died and you need a new one ASAP.
4. You know and calculated the monthly payment which allows you to pay off the whole sum in a year or less (and of course before promotional no-interest period expires), and this monthly payment is less than what you would be able to save if (3) did not apply. If this rule is not true, you can not afford it, look for a cheaper alternative. Also, never pay just a minimum payment, this is a trap.
Credit card balance is a loan, and these rules are a way to make it into a cheap loan. But be careful - it's like a can of gasoline, can be very handy to get you into places you want to be if you handle it right, but handle it wrong and you can end up badly burned or worse.
If you follow these rules, you can use credit card with relative safety, as even if you overspend one month, you'll have to cut back next month to pay for it. Also improves your credit score :) But if you notice you can't use it without carrying a balance - don't use it at all.
That was literally my entire point :-)
I have no doubt that many people have this figured out, but my point is that 'use your credit card for everything always' isn't necessarily good advice for everyone.
5. You refrain from further transactions with that card, since your grace period is gone and new purchases will immediately accrue interest.
(Although I suppose you could operate in an different paradigm where you make payments as frequently as possible with most all of your spending money, and then new purchases on the card are just effectively taking away from that payment)
FWIW it feels like the additional complexity of those offers coupled with the relaxing of standard payment behavior is a great way to trip people up.
Personally, not having things like Simple around for the ~20 years I've been living on my own, I already have a system of budgeting (Python+SQLite for the last few years) and zero impulse buying habits outside a greasy lunch from my favorite food cart now and then.
So for me, putting mortgage, utils, and food on the CC and pay it off with my first check of the month works just fine. And I don't have to switch financial providers.
Especially hesitant seeing they're owned by a multinational bank with a dubious history. My local CU seems much more approachable and personable, despite Simple's trendy "human" branding.
In the early days (1960s/1970s), credit card companies welcomed (perhaps even sponsored? I don't remember) the legislated responsibility for risk because it encouraged the uptake of credit cards.
Nowadays, of course, almost everyone has a card and almost every merchant needs to take them. So the card cartels were able to shift part of the burden onto the merchants, and in particular the smaller ones. But not all of it.
Banks managed to evade most of the credit card rules in debit cards. Debit cards are a MUCH better deal for banks (they don't incur interest -- except for overdraw fees, but they also don't carry ANY of the protections credit cards do).
> Never ever use a debit online. In fact, don't use in person. Debit cards are fine for ATM to get cash, for anything else use CC. (Plus CC gives you 2% cash back if you shop wise, that is huge).
As an alternative: if you can get a credit card at all, just get one. You don't need to worry about "benefits" (cash rebates, miles or whatever, just get one that doesn't charge you an annual fee.
When you buy something online or swipe, send the CC come any a check that same day. There's no rule saying you have to pay them only when you get a bill. If you do this you'll never accrue interest.
Having to write out checks daily kind of defeats the purpose of using a credit card instead of a checkbook.
Not true - if you report fraudulent charges the money must be returned to your account within 10 days until the investigation is concluded according to federal law. Many banks will return the money much immediately as well - if yours doesn't, get a new bank.
Visa and Mastercard, who control 100% of the debit card processing in the US, both have 0-liability policies on debit cards, and as the payment processors, they have required banks to follow suit, and to follow an immediate refund policy on fraud as well.
Please tell me why I would use Debit again? Remember I also lose the 2% cashback I get on my credit, on top of my bank account being drained for 10 days and perhaps my mortgage payment bouncing if I didn't catch it in time.
If your debit card is branded Visa/MC, the bank is required to issue an "immediate" (usually "overnight") refund while investigated.
I don't have time to mess with that. Use credit.
What bank took 90 days to refund fraudulent purchases? I'd like to know to avoid them forever.
(It's true that using a debit card means whatever checking account you used could get zeroed out; it's probably a good idea just to open a second account to use for online stuff, if you don't already have an account that serves a similar purpose).
However, lot's of banks make it really easy to overdraw funds when using a debit card. In particular the ordering of transactions can cause you to overdraw (consider charge/refund/charge when a mistake was made; the bank could order it charge/charge/refund and you are now potentially overdrawn despite no day ending with you having a negative balance).
In particular, my past experience with Chase is that they pull crappy stuff like this all the time, nickel-and-dime-you with charges and then act surprised when you close all of your accounts with them.
Have you been asking them to reverse charges? Any time I have any trouble with any account ever, I always say "can you check if this generated any overdraft charges, and if so, can you reverse them"; it seems to work.
The point was that my experience with Chase sans fraudulent charges makes me believe that it would take months to see the money in the days before it was illegal for them to do so.
Since you mentioned Citibank, I've never banked with them, but I did have a visa with them back in college. I was young so only had the card for 18 months, but I'd never had a single late payment when a bill got put in the wrong mailbox in my dorm. By the time I got it, it was 2 days before it was due. I called up Citi (2 days before the due date) and asked them if they could waive the late fee/interest provided it was posted the following day. The answer was no and they had an additional fee (which they also wouldn't waive) for doing a bank transfer, which would save me from the late fee. I told the I'd do that and to please close the account. Asking to close the account got me to talk to his manager, but they didn't bend on any of the fees.
I've had much better customer experience with credit cards from Discover, American Express and (somewhat ironically given my banking story) Chase.
For many people in Europe ( including myself ) the only other online option is a bank transfer, which also has the risk of loss of funds if you mistype the target account number[0]
The workaround for only having a debit card is to have it linked to a buffer account that only holds sufficient funds for the planned purchases.
[0] when submitting such a payment my bank kindly notes that they may not be able to reclaim my payment should I make a typo.
Even if you obtain one, european credit limits are nothing like the american counterparts. They usually are much smaller.
I have the opposite problem though. I live in Austria and can't get a Visa/Mastercard debit card. The concept is totally foreign here. They use the stupid Maestro debit cards, which are useless online and in the United States.
If anyone can tell me how I can obtain a Visa/Mastercard debit card here, he will have my eternal gratitude.
I agree with the other fellow that you should avoid using them, though. You may have the same rights, but the potential consequences are different. A credit card which you pay off each month provides the same basic functionality but with more safety. Plus you get to make 0.01% of interest off the float.
They will suddenly want to get it back, and most likely will not argue against the dispute.
The rules are pretty clear on this stuff from Visa and Mastercard-- retailers are on the hook. With the kind of fraud they deal with ,being able to actually get the item back from the customer is a good thing for them.
Their return policy is asinine and counter productive. Maybe they think that so many customers will just eat the charge it is worth it.
But I would highly doubt you will lose your dispute (unless your bank is terrible.)
I have disputed various things over the years, when running into bad merchants. Only once has the dispute not gone in my favor -- and I no longer do business with that bank (Wells Fargo, it was a particularly egregious situation too. Over a $60 dispute they have lost $400 a year in revenue.)
But in this case, it sounds like the merchandise was what was ordered, it's just that the order was a mistake.
Disputing that on the basis you gave would be unethical at best, and quite possibly a violation of both the buyer's card agreement and the law as well.
"If you try to return an eligible item within 90 days from the date of purchase and the merchant won't take it back, American Express may refund the full purchase price (excluding shipping and handling), up to $300 per item, up to a maximum of $1,000 per calendar year per Card account, if you purchased it entirely with your eligible American Express® Card. Please read important exclusions and restrictions.‡"
But: have you read the "important exclusions and restrictions"?
Also, the buyer would still be out of around 200$ plus shipping even if he'd be refunded by Amex...
But yeah, it's only $300. Perhaps the fancy AmEx cards have a more robust benefit. It's pretty nice for "free" though.
Full terms are here https://web.aexp-static.com/us/content/pdf/card-benefits/Pla...
In contrast, we bought a whole bunch of Mikrotik's RouterBoards, they're really inexpensive and come with really powerful features that you don't need to pay extra for. We're starting to deploy them everywhere and we'll eventually phase out the shitty Sonicwall.
Many WISP's use Ubiquiti wiresless equipment paired with Mikrotik's on the back end.
I recommend attending one of their conferences if you ever get the chance. In the US, they usually have one annually in Las Vegas[1] (a lot of fun!, and they have one coming up soon in October). They also do conferences around the world[2].
It's been a few years since I attended one, but they used to (and might still) give out free products at the conferences. Usually it was a free sample of one of their new products. For example, I got an original UniFi device when they launched that product line. Installed it at home (way overkill for a small house!), and it's still working perfectly all these years later (has to be close to 5-6 years).
Ubiquiti's conferences are a lot less expensive than the Mikrotik MUM's (conferences), although Mikrotik's offer a lot of training and what-not as well as normal conference talks.
[1] http://community.ubnt.com/t5/Ubiquiti-Events-and-Conferences...
[2] http://community.ubnt.com/t5/Ubiquiti-Events-and-Conferences...
I felt like a total asshole telling this client we needed to shell out another few hundred bones. Then the thing ran like shit (need a lot of rebooting) and we replaced it after 9 months.
Haven't looked at their garbage since.
Sonicwalls have a comparable feature set for hardware and basic networking, but also add the ability to do some UTM on the device - things like content filtering, antivirus, etc. for traffic passing through. There's nothing comparable that I've ever heard of on the Mikrotiks.
In fairness, I believe these are subscription based services on the sonicwall (at least it was when I had a sonicwall). The same features would normally be implemented in different devices, and could still be with a mikrotik.
And I don't see a reason why something couldn't be done on the mikrotik - either natively with some scripting, or by making use of the meta-router functionality (a linux vm running on the router which you can pass traffic too and have advanced stuff done)
They are not rock-solid routers and frequently ship buggy releases, especially if you are using advanced features or their wireless offerings. They are great, they have a ton of powerful features, but don't use them unless you plan to spend time maintaining them and learning a lot about them.
Manipulating their firewall rules is also a really cool way to intro yourself to iptables concepts.
Disclaimer: I work for a VAR
I wouldn't know who to work with to buy Dell, aside from typing "dell.com" and buying it. I thought that was their whole business model -- direct sales, no inventory, JIT shipping and the like.
Their whole reason for existence was to cut out VARs and sell direct to the customer.
We tried getting a second quote, and the VAR said: "Dell tells us you are already speaking to another VAR about this equipment, so they won't supply us a quote."
If they didn't have this policy and I was a state sponsored intelligence agency I would be buying, tampering, and returning as many as I could.
Plus, just about every device with a computer/storage inside could in theory be tampered with. So, your argument seems to imply that a 'no return' policy should be enforced on most equipment. That's just insane.
It will be very difficult to contest a chargeback for something you returned.
I'm not advocating to carry a balance when using credit. I pay mine off every month reaping the benefits without paying any interest.
When it finally arrived at my house, I was missing several items that were part of the "bundle" I paid for. I was Missing the headset as well as the extra controller and free game they advertised. Calling their support was an exercise in patience as it turned into a debate about what I ordered. Dell had purposely sent the included receipt with tactically chosen wording that I had just ordered a normal Xbox bundle they always sold. A classic bait-n-switch.
I had an argument with the support person about that being wrong yet they insisted, DESPITE my time/date of order showing to purposely take advantage of the BF deal and a screen shot of my order. They still fought it as the included receipt was their trump card. So basically all a company has to do is fix the sent receipt and change the order wording and there is no defense for being taken advantage of? I was livid.
A quick search of the net found out I wasn't alone in this bat/switch Xbox bundle BF deal. Eventually they gave in to the headset and sent me a Dell gift card for the amount to order a headset through them. This was now further proof I had ordered a SPECIAL BF deal as they admitted it by comping the headset. But they still would not budge on the extra controller or the free game.
I decided to try and stick it to them instead for their deceptive tactics and issued a complaint with my credit card for not getting what I paid for. I filed for full amount of purchase of the BF deal and explained what happened to my CC company. They mentioned they had similar complaint already about same thing for someone else. So I did a chargeback. Not intending to get free Xbox but rather try to scare Dell to just make good.
Months went by and I find out Dell fought it, as expected. Dell now was offering me a full refund and to send everything back. I was ready to do just that and buy from elsewhere now BUT, get this, Dell said I had to pay for return shipping! So now instead of getting everything I paid for, they now expect me to be OUT $30 to ship it back with now NOTHING to show for.
So that is where it ended. I gave up. I wasn't getting the advertised controller or free game and just wasn't going to be -$30 at this point for nothing than to prove a point. So I kept the Xbox, paid for it and just accepted Dell has now become a piece of shit company. And I will NEVER buy or recommend to anyone, including many clients, Dell or anything the sell again.