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I really enjoyed this entire podcast. One of the best parts (starting at about 21 minutes in), are the counterarguments. So many of these arguments are what I hear out of a lot of engineers. Compensation, loyalty, stability, leverage, and mentorship. He really explains what these arguments are, why people psychologically hang on to these arguments, and why they are fallacies. At the same time, he is very careful to show why it's ok to work for corporations. But if you are going to work at a corporation, at least understand that there are other ways to not be in a situation where you are a commodity, this is so worth listening to.
The one thing that seems to be missing from his podcast is that he never really talks about the downside of breaking off on your own. There are many counterarguments to breaking off on your own, and honestly they follow well with the counterargument for why you SHOULD leave your corporate job.
For example, one of the counterarguments he gives it the compensation counter argument. Yet it is true, corporate engineers DO make a very high level of compensation per working unit compared to, well, just about every other job in the world (by percentage anyway). Stability is another counterargument. Going out on your own is not actually all that stable. He argues that going on your own isn't nearly as unstable as people think. I argue it is not nearly as stable is big corporate engineering life.
Now this isn't to stay you shouldn't go out on your own. I honestly think you should. Listen to the podcast, stop being a commodity.
This is Jeff from SE Daily. Thank you so much for these comments.
I did try to address the downsides as best I could and I think they are even better addressed in the follow-up with Preethi.
Most of the downsides of leaving your job are not instability because for most people in tech, that instability can be stabilized with stuff like debt, contract work, living in super cheap housing etc.
The main reason people do not go out on their own is either:
-lack of recognizing there are alternatives to the corporate meatgrinder
-laziness and addiction to video games, drugs, or other consumptive behaviors
-shame/defeatist/nihilist attitude
The epidemic scale of all three of these in tech industry is pretty disgusting--all the more reason to jump ship.
I haven't been able to see the follow up yet, but I will! And by the way, I love your style. Excellent podcast!
I got that out of your podcast as well, the points you bring up here. And I agree 100%. Honestly, it is so sad and, as you say, disgusting, how many engineers use these excuses to stay in the position of a commodity. It's really self defeating to the engineers. When people occasionally bring up making a software engineers union or something of that fashion, it is to basically alleviate the commodity pain without addressing the causes, like the lack of recognition, laziness, and defeatist attitudes. Unfortunately, the only real way out is to break out on your own. Once you do, it becomes rather obvious that you had nothing to fear at all. Nothing of substance anyway.
I've struck out on my own twice now. I worked my butt off both times, and made no money either time. The first time, I burnt out after my business partner left, and the second time, we tried to make/sell a video plagiarism detection service.
These excursions did not just cost me the income I would have received from a corporation, but they also decimated my savings. I have friends who are my age who have worked at corporations consistently, and they have about 10x the savings I have now. Two of them are retired (just over 40 years old).
I don't regret my excursions, because I hated many aspects of the corporate life, and I am the kind of person who has to see for myself. But I won't be striking out on my own again. Money, like software, is hard to make reliably at scale. I would no more tell an engineer to strike out on their own in business, than I would tell an entrepreneur to start making an MMORPG.
I find this line of thinking rather strange. It seems... disembodied. Like it exists in a world where there's not much outside of software engineering and the software engineer. No fears, no doubts, no weaknesses, no problems, no other interests or concerns, no friends or loved ones.
Stabilize instability with "stuff like debt, contract work, living in super cheap housing"? Those are not minor things. Debt? I don't follow that one, but in the typical understanding debt has some non-trivial drawbacks. Contract work and cheap housing? That may drastically affect where and how you live on many levels. That may work great for certain adventurous individuals but not everyone has that kind of personality, and many people have families and other obligations and interests they may want to pursue that don't jive well with these options.
Instability is instability. It does not cease to be such because it can be mitigated, especially if one's mitigation options themselves come with drawbacks. We may assess how significant the instability truly is, and how available the mitigation options are. I think one can get pretty far with more grounded options, such as honing a skill set that is in demand, saving and investing one's money, keeping oneself healthy mentally and physically, and developing a network of contacts while watching for opportunities.
Your writing here is dangerously close to being able to paint anyone who disagrees with you with a rather judgmental and negative brush. Either ignorant, lazy/addicted/consumerist, or having a poor attitude. Terms so vague that pretty much every person will fall under them in one way or another, and any contrary statement can be warped to represent them. I tend to be extremely suspicious of people whose arguments are formed in this manner.
Yes, some of these are real problems that don't need to be there. Many people don't know about the other options or think they are more difficult than they are. Many people are scared. Many people do not think too highly of themselves and think they're not worth of a business or that they could never, ever make it work. I think empathy rather than judgment would go a long way here.
Some of these are major problems. Mental illnesses and drug (or other serious) addiction are not a walk in a park. I don't think the fact that they're working in a corporation is the major concern at this point...
And then, some of these... Laziness. Everyone's favorite catch-all blame tactic. Video games. Everyone's favorite catch-all blame hobby. [everyone who got into programming via video games please go under the ground now] Consumption. We're in a capitalist economy, we're going to consume things. Yes, some of us lay about, play, and consume too much, but people have a right to figure that out on their own terms. Media and marketing love to throw around these phrases to make people feel bad and short-circuit their decision making.
There are some very valid reasons for not going out doing things on your own that I haven't really seen discussed or addressed neither here nor in the video. You may disagree with them and assign vastly different value to the variables involved, but that doesn't make them invalid:
- many people are not interested in the sheer stress that comes with doing things on your own;
- many people are simply risk-averse and starting your own business is perceived as a fairly risky path;
- they're not interested in the associated or implied Spartan lifestyle of constant hard work, no consumerism, and no entertainment;
- they're interested in a field that doesn't really have much going on outside of corporations;
- they may just not like it, and/or they may not have the skillset - they are engineers, not businessmen, after all.
The message I would want to get to people is that they should try to do what they want. If they feel an inkling about starting a business, they should pursue it, with the necessary care...
Funny thing, I was having this discussion with my friends at a dinner party to do something on our own (a non-tech business idea). No cigar...
It's so ingrained in a lot of people that having a stable corporate job is the best you can get. The whole corporate culture makes you so risk averse that it's hard to venture out to do something on your own. This is despite knowing fully well that their jobs are disposable/replaceable.
I think a lot of people say they believe their jobs are disposable/replaceable but in reality they are thinking "My job is disposable/replaceable if it wasn't me doing it. I make it indispensable!" That's one problem and corporations use it to their advantage.
I have been in the position a few unfortunate times where I had to let some people go. Some for cause, many due to downsizing. It never ceases to surprise me when people say something along the lines of "but how could you do this to me? I work so hard. You need me!" and they believe it. Heck, even now as I say this I can think of times where I thought exactly the same way about myself and my job. But, it was never the case.
Thanks so much for providing a written transcript of the audio. I can't tell you how often I've come across some interesting looking podcast, but haven't had my headphones, or the time to listen to it. I find I have much better retention and faster consumption when reading plaintext. When I listen to audio only content, my mind tends to wander, and I get distracted with something while the words wash over me without sinking in. Reading text requires more engagement, and it's easier for me to maintain my focus.
I wish all audio content producers included a text version with their work as well.
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[ 1.2 ms ] story [ 58.2 ms ] threadhttp://softwareengineeringdaily.com/2016/09/15/commodity-dis...
"We use cookies to personalise content and ads [..]. We also share information about your use of our site with our social media, advertising and analytics partners."
The one thing that seems to be missing from his podcast is that he never really talks about the downside of breaking off on your own. There are many counterarguments to breaking off on your own, and honestly they follow well with the counterargument for why you SHOULD leave your corporate job.
For example, one of the counterarguments he gives it the compensation counter argument. Yet it is true, corporate engineers DO make a very high level of compensation per working unit compared to, well, just about every other job in the world (by percentage anyway). Stability is another counterargument. Going out on your own is not actually all that stable. He argues that going on your own isn't nearly as unstable as people think. I argue it is not nearly as stable is big corporate engineering life.
Now this isn't to stay you shouldn't go out on your own. I honestly think you should. Listen to the podcast, stop being a commodity.
I did try to address the downsides as best I could and I think they are even better addressed in the follow-up with Preethi.
Most of the downsides of leaving your job are not instability because for most people in tech, that instability can be stabilized with stuff like debt, contract work, living in super cheap housing etc.
The main reason people do not go out on their own is either:
-lack of recognizing there are alternatives to the corporate meatgrinder
-laziness and addiction to video games, drugs, or other consumptive behaviors
-shame/defeatist/nihilist attitude
The epidemic scale of all three of these in tech industry is pretty disgusting--all the more reason to jump ship.
I got that out of your podcast as well, the points you bring up here. And I agree 100%. Honestly, it is so sad and, as you say, disgusting, how many engineers use these excuses to stay in the position of a commodity. It's really self defeating to the engineers. When people occasionally bring up making a software engineers union or something of that fashion, it is to basically alleviate the commodity pain without addressing the causes, like the lack of recognition, laziness, and defeatist attitudes. Unfortunately, the only real way out is to break out on your own. Once you do, it becomes rather obvious that you had nothing to fear at all. Nothing of substance anyway.
These excursions did not just cost me the income I would have received from a corporation, but they also decimated my savings. I have friends who are my age who have worked at corporations consistently, and they have about 10x the savings I have now. Two of them are retired (just over 40 years old).
I don't regret my excursions, because I hated many aspects of the corporate life, and I am the kind of person who has to see for myself. But I won't be striking out on my own again. Money, like software, is hard to make reliably at scale. I would no more tell an engineer to strike out on their own in business, than I would tell an entrepreneur to start making an MMORPG.
Stabilize instability with "stuff like debt, contract work, living in super cheap housing"? Those are not minor things. Debt? I don't follow that one, but in the typical understanding debt has some non-trivial drawbacks. Contract work and cheap housing? That may drastically affect where and how you live on many levels. That may work great for certain adventurous individuals but not everyone has that kind of personality, and many people have families and other obligations and interests they may want to pursue that don't jive well with these options.
Instability is instability. It does not cease to be such because it can be mitigated, especially if one's mitigation options themselves come with drawbacks. We may assess how significant the instability truly is, and how available the mitigation options are. I think one can get pretty far with more grounded options, such as honing a skill set that is in demand, saving and investing one's money, keeping oneself healthy mentally and physically, and developing a network of contacts while watching for opportunities.
Your writing here is dangerously close to being able to paint anyone who disagrees with you with a rather judgmental and negative brush. Either ignorant, lazy/addicted/consumerist, or having a poor attitude. Terms so vague that pretty much every person will fall under them in one way or another, and any contrary statement can be warped to represent them. I tend to be extremely suspicious of people whose arguments are formed in this manner.
Yes, some of these are real problems that don't need to be there. Many people don't know about the other options or think they are more difficult than they are. Many people are scared. Many people do not think too highly of themselves and think they're not worth of a business or that they could never, ever make it work. I think empathy rather than judgment would go a long way here.
Some of these are major problems. Mental illnesses and drug (or other serious) addiction are not a walk in a park. I don't think the fact that they're working in a corporation is the major concern at this point...
And then, some of these... Laziness. Everyone's favorite catch-all blame tactic. Video games. Everyone's favorite catch-all blame hobby. [everyone who got into programming via video games please go under the ground now] Consumption. We're in a capitalist economy, we're going to consume things. Yes, some of us lay about, play, and consume too much, but people have a right to figure that out on their own terms. Media and marketing love to throw around these phrases to make people feel bad and short-circuit their decision making.
There are some very valid reasons for not going out doing things on your own that I haven't really seen discussed or addressed neither here nor in the video. You may disagree with them and assign vastly different value to the variables involved, but that doesn't make them invalid:
- many people are not interested in the sheer stress that comes with doing things on your own;
- many people are simply risk-averse and starting your own business is perceived as a fairly risky path;
- they're not interested in the associated or implied Spartan lifestyle of constant hard work, no consumerism, and no entertainment;
- they're interested in a field that doesn't really have much going on outside of corporations;
- they may just not like it, and/or they may not have the skillset - they are engineers, not businessmen, after all.
The message I would want to get to people is that they should try to do what they want. If they feel an inkling about starting a business, they should pursue it, with the necessary care...
http://searchaws.techtarget.com/IBMSoftLayer/Adding-Up-the-P...
tl;dr: bare metal 2.5x faster for 1/2 the price.
It's so ingrained in a lot of people that having a stable corporate job is the best you can get. The whole corporate culture makes you so risk averse that it's hard to venture out to do something on your own. This is despite knowing fully well that their jobs are disposable/replaceable.
I have been in the position a few unfortunate times where I had to let some people go. Some for cause, many due to downsizing. It never ceases to surprise me when people say something along the lines of "but how could you do this to me? I work so hard. You need me!" and they believe it. Heck, even now as I say this I can think of times where I thought exactly the same way about myself and my job. But, it was never the case.
There's no cure for ego or being delusional.
I wish all audio content producers included a text version with their work as well.