BBM was their killer app for a while, but WhatsApp and the like have overtaken it. In addition they had their enterprise mail server that lots of businesses used.
IIRC their big money maker is the Blackberry Enterprise Server, or BES. I'm not up to date on the feature's so don't quote me on it. It used to partition my phone so i had a Work/Personal work space (so that work could wipe my work related info) They pivoted to a multiplatform system back when things started to look grim for Blackberry, and that's probably whats kept them afloat.
It's massively overpriced for what it is, but people still seem to be buying it.
Oh, Yeah! To add on to my point, Blackberry released their private keys to the RCMP, so all BBM traffic could be decrypted. They didn't release the BES keys though because feature?
Can't release BES keys unless BlackBerry put a backdoor in the software, the whole point of BES is you don't go through the BIS but communicate with the BES directly with encryption managed directly by it.
Just kill it in entirety already and move on to new things. Neither Android nor Apple is going to die in the forseeable future, so a BlackBerry operating system doesn't stand a chance.
> Just kill it in entirety already (snip) a BlackBerry operating system doesn't stand a chance.
They did that already. BlackBerry's last two phones were 100% pure Android devices, with full access to Play Store apps, Gmail, Google Maps, Google Docs, etc, just like every other major Android phone has.
They have a strong embedded OS/tools/middleware (QNX) and cryptography (Certicom) portfolio with QNX in particular being a major player in the automotive embedded software/middleware market and they are moving into the medical market.
They are reorganizing around the IoT movement as their software assets can be retooled for more lucrative "connected devices" markets outside of smartphones.
For what it's worth, the BlackBerry Priv is hands-down my favorite Android phone I've ever owned. It's a great product that deserved more success than it received.
I've been never more productive with my smartphones than with a Blackberry. The BB's keyboards are still unmatched. While I can type as fast with my iPhone 7 where cursor control is thanks to 3D touch great a BB Classic is still better—reasons why:
- You can rest your fingers on the keyboard like on a real keyboard without pressing the keys (you can't do that on a touch screen)
- After a short time you start to touch type; although it's possible with an iPhone too, it's not that convenient and most keep looking on their keyboards
- Cursor control with the BB mini trackpad above the keyboard (Classic and other models), is just terrific and often needed
- Best is that all good apps including the launcher support keyboard short-cuts and you will heavily use them since the keyboard is always present (Classic and other models)
- To give you a comparison: using a BB with a keyboard feels like using Vim vs a GUI-based editor; you use Vim only with Vim's key binding fast and reliable, no need to open sliding menus, touch buttons, etc.; it's very satisfying and I really miss those times
The path BB went the recent months—putting Android on BB devices + some extra security stuff (the so called DTEK)—was a good decision. But they brought the super expensive Priv device with a slider keyboard which is for a BB rather mediocre and not like the ones from the Classic, Bold, etc. Few weeks ago, they brought us a non keyboard Alcatel-OEM phone which does not differ from any other Android except this DTEK software which you can just download on any phone (why???).
What they just need to do is to put Android on the Blackberry Classic or some phone with a similar form factor. That's it. Before they don't do this final step, they can't claim that hardware is not profitable. I don't get why the CEO didn't do this as the first thing when he started his Android strategy.
Yeah, but does that really matter any more? I've found that my iPhone's speech-to-text is pretty darned good, as long as I speak with a slightly staccato cadence to make it clear where the word divisions are. I can do that much more quickly than I can type. Generally I only have problems when the connection to the server doing the conversion is poor.
I've never used Android's speech-to-text, but I have to assume it is equivalent. Can an experienced BB typist really outperform speech-to-text conversion?
There is more than just creating text. The BB keyboard is also essential part of the UI, you trigger stuff through the keyboard all the time (think of VIM or terminal based apps).
Even if just talk about text creation which involves editing. Speech-to-text is impressive but once you start to edit your text you need a keyboard and perfect cursor control.
I really liked the clicking ball on the T-mobile G1. You used the ball to move the cursor and then could click it to select. It was useful for one-handed operation and fine text editing.
I feel like an idiot talking to an inanimate object, I never use text-to-speech. Besides, it's nice to be able to send a text on the bus without being That Text-to-Speech Guy that everyone hates.
My experience with iPhones speech to text is mixed. It does a good job with short common words if you talk slowly and enunciate, but screws up proper names constantly and struggles with some sentences.
Worse, when it gets something wrong, it can be completely wrong. It doesn't help that editing is kind of a pain on iOS either, with annoying long touches and the still awkward text selection system.
Did they not produce regional variations? I must admit a friend of mine who's a lawyer in Russia had an old curve with a QWERTY keyboard, but I put that down to the fact that for security reasons the law firm gave everyone French blackberrys that were roaming in Russia rather than Russian provided phones.
It's easier to adapt to another keyboard layout than it is to change your accent. Not to mention that you can remap it in software (or at least you would be able to on rooted Android...) and that most latin layouts aren't that different from US QWERTY, at least compared to the difference in accents.
It can be annoying when typing in a Cyrillic-based language (and presumably other alphabets), especially when it's not your native language. It's also rather annoying for kids who are learning to type.
Just saying, as an ex-n900 user, that niche market is much smaller than we think. I wouldn't go back to a n900 equivalent today. Typing accents in French or non-latin characters was pretty annoying.
Anything typed can probably get scarfed up in a dozen ways, anyway, because you don't know what's going on in the apps, platform, or malware. So speech and kbd are probably around the same privacy.
Accents: Supposedly it works well for US english. I don't speak US english. Trying to force it usually works worse than when I had to force myself to speak Finland-Swedish for my old Nokia phones.
Punctuation: It's really annoying to have to say "dot" or "comma" all the time, and it often seems to get it wrong anyway.
Vocabulary: When messaging I rarely only use "common" words. Gaming stuff gets garbled (I just tried, and it interpreted "raid at 8" as "Friday 8"), and band names or tech-related stuff doesn't fare much better. Bonus points if it's a weird spelling or international name. Good luck getting it to recognize Movits!, Dimaa, or Nekrogoblikon, you'll need it.
Correction: I often say the bad thing, especially when under pressure from the STT timeout. AFAIK there is no way to have it delete the last N words.
Multiple languages: I switch between Swedish and English often enough that I usually forget to switch keyboard. For a keyboard this means getting wrong autocorrections, for voice input this means getting garbage. I know Android STT supports selecting multiple languages, but then it gets confused and switches back and forth all the time.
At this point, I basically only use the voice input for setting bed/egg timers with Google Now. I would use it for navigation home/to work, but I don't have a car and Maps' bike instructions are awful.
Android speech to text works phenomenally well in my experience. It's much faster than typing. However, in most circumstances it's socially awkward to use it.
Is it also socially awkward to use a gesture typing function like Swype? Because that's what many used before Speech to Text was so good and it's still faster than thumb typing.
> I don't get why the CEO didn't do this as the first thing when he started his Android strategy.
I don't think Chen understands device strategy, or cares much for it. Because every BB user has been asking for the exact same thing you just mentioned -- for years -- and they still haven't done it.
It'll never beat Apple or Samsung in popularity. But if they just released a single solid high-end Android phone with a real BlackBerry keyboard every two years, that product line would quietly print free money forever. It's a niche product, but a fairly large niche.
Exactly. Since Termux[1][2] I've been pining for just this. Add a removable battery back in and I'd pay lots of money for this. The long rumored Blackberry Rome/Mercury seemed to be something like this [3] (minus the removable battery), and I think was expected in Q1 2017 or so.
I completely agree. I had a T-mobile G2 with a Z spring keyboard, and I loved it. Even with swype motions in the Android keyboard, I still have to make a lot of corrections. I could type entire emails on a hardware keyboard. With a software keyboard, I try to keep things as terse as possible because it just takes too long.
Maybe, but it may not be a huge issue. I've had very good luck using apps split-screen in Android 7.0, which has a similar aspect ratio to classic BB devices.
Good point. I was going to disagree with you, but then I tested some apps just to make sure. I'm actually surprised how much stuff works with split-screen. I have apps that I use once in a blue moon, for example the Avianca app, and it works despite throwing the "this app may not work with split-screen" notification. Same for Spotify.
But if they just released a single solid high-end Android phone with a real BlackBerry keyboard every two years, that product line would quietly print free money forever.
Android doesn't sit well with me, and I've given it several good runs. I'm also at this point firmly entrenched in the Apple ecosystem (AppleTV, Macs in the house, etc.)
And I'd still pay full retail price for such a phone. Seems to me that's BB's once last true shot at remaining a going entity. But, as already pointed out, Chen just seems incapable of getting it.
Are there any pickins for android phones with keyboards with even remotely modern hardware (I'd settle for anything with a 1080p screen probably)? Seems extremely limited, I was unable to find any viable options last I checked. I hate the candy bar form factor but it seems as though it really has won out unfortunately.
Blackberry's own Priv from late last year is the only modern choice. Reviews generally indicate that it was good, but not great. Had minor issues with heating up and having a clicky back I think. Was mostly stock Android aside from a few small tweaks.
I looked at it but both price and lack of root and bootloader unlocking are extremely prohibitive for me. The keyboard is really its only appealing feature.
I can get a device like a OnePlus 3 for about 60% of the price and it has better hardware to boot. In terms of storage, RAM and CPU it's more comparable to a OnePlus 2 which is about 40% of its price.
Keyboard is nice, but not double the price and lose features I rely upon like AdAway and XPrivacy kind of nice.
Agreed, those are among the reasons I haven't picked one up either. Not sure what price One Plus 3 is, but it's worth noting new Privs on Ebay generally fluctuate between 299 and 350 USD, which I'm guessing may be similar to OP3.
The problem is, a keyboard adds to the device cost quite a bit. And most people, despite saying they want a keyboard, are not willing to pay above and beyond for it. They want the same price point they're already at. So that means cutting costs elsewhere.
You're defining productivity as pure typing speed. This is exactly why the iPhone killed Blackberry.
All the Blackberry had was a hardware keyboard. Everything else about the platform and OS was vastly weaker. Apple and Google have real, full-fledged OSes (Blackberry eventually got this, but it was really a feature phone with QWERTY keyboard). I do all kinds of productivity and work tasks on my iPhone and the keyboard text input is a small part of that.
Having a real Web browser is mission critical for the work that I do. When the iPhone first came out, that was the No. 1 reason I went with the iPhone over a Blackberry.
The iPhone also has a very robust application ecosystem that is powered by the fact that all iPhones have come with large (by Blackberry standards) responsive touchscreens. I use project management software on my phone. I have note taking programs that sync with desktop. I can even SSH into a server and update html files.
Apple put real computers in users' pockets. Blackberry just made texting and writing emails (not even full-fledged emails either!) easier to write. That's it.
> Apple put real computers in users' pockets. Blackberry just made texting and writing emails (not even full-fledged emails either!) easier to write. That's it.
For some people email is all they're looking to do and that's why it feels so much more productive. Unfortunately for BlackBerry it's a pretty small niche.
I remember when the "new" Dodge trucks came out in the 1994. They were "ugly" according to most people, but Dodge/Chrysler found that 10% of the people loved them. That was enough to make a bunch of money. I think that a quality keyboard on a phone would be similar.
The problem is that for some reason most companies think they have to be growing tremendously or it's not worth being in business. You can make really good money on a niche - but I guess it's not enough for the current BB executives.
You guys are forgetting another reason that Blackberry cratered: People didn't want to carry two devices. Even if a Blackberry meets your email needs, if its bad for everything else you want to do professionally and personally (apps, websites, music, audio books, etc.), it's not going to be enough. Business execs wanted to carry one device all day long, and Blackberry didn't offer enough to be an all day device.
You also have to keep in mind that companies switched from providing devices for employees to providing subsidizes for cell service. That's what my company does. They pay for my cell plan, but I bring my own device. When companies went away from providing people with Blackberries, that also helped doom the company.
Their core issue was that they didn't believe the iPhone was real when it was demoed in January 2007. They thought it was fake. It took them far too long to realize that Apple's vision was the right one. Had they got that immediately like Google, they might still be here today.
Blackberry did make great keyboards and their hardware was nice. BBM was an original messaging leader, but they rested on their laurels.
I agree that BB should have come out with a high quality stock Android phone years ago. They went down that whole QNX route, and by then it was already too late.
Based on Playbook performance, using QNX was one of best choices they ever made. Before that, OK Labs was already deploying user-mode version of popular operating systems on OKL4 microkernel. It's what Blackberry should've done so they get benefits of both ecosystems + rock-solid core. Actually, they should've tried to outbid General Dynamics for OK Labs to just get their people to do the project using their experience. I'd have bought them instead of QNX probably but looking back I'd consider grabbing both. Then dual-license both stacks for personal use to let the OSS improvements roll in. :)
Actually, hes defining his productivity, and you're defining yours. Both of you can be right :) To your point, Apple did put a computer in my pocket, but it took away my control over it and it became _their_ computer. No root access, no control over updates, no way to copy files in and out of it, no way to control any aspect but what they let me. That is not my definition of a real computer, but an appliance. Sure, they're very successful and maybe lots of people do want an appliance, but its certainly not a real computer, the way a laptop with OSX, Linux, Windows is.
Well, sure.. it didn't run UNIX. But for for all intents and purposes you had 'root access'. You could install any BBOS you wanted, look at the entire filesystem and install any third party app (w/o signing, or appworld), and the OS exposed APIs which iOS doesn't. All of these things were out of the box and didn't rely on jailbreaking or exploiting vulnerabilities in the OS.
I don't think they're allowed to put Android on a BB classic form factor - the screen dimensions don't scale relative to regular phones, and as far as I know, Google demands certain layouts to simplify app development.
I see where he's coming from, but totally agree with you. I've worked with people who refuse to consider a GUI editor because emacs is what they learned in school and it can do everything, but they don't actually configure the damn thing. Then they are speechless when I refactor, find refs, regex replace: all at the keyboard. Yes, this is a Java based IDE... no, you don't have to click on enormous shiny buttons to do work. Also you don't need to understand lisp to configure it, wow!
Rant over, sorry for derailing the thread. This is a touchy subject.
As far as keyboards are concerned, I've never had anything better than the Motorola Droid 4. It's a shame it was unusable with the stock software, the terrible display and the locked bootloader, but the keyboard was absolutely amazing. My fingers have always been too big for BB phones.
About the exiting hardware business, I don't think it will be too long before BB finally crashes down and gets sold. The differentiator for them has been hardware since they ditched BBOS for Android (not saying it was a bad decission, that thing was horrible), now what's left is some java apps and some branding to put on some random ODM... Until a Microsoft, Lenovo etc gets in and buys them for their IP
Totally agree. Droid 4 (and Psion 5) have awesome keyboards.
My understanding is that there are several patents in this space that need to be licensed, coupled with everyone wants to copycat the best selling phones, and don't want to design a "niche" product that looks old fashioned.
"And that's where you run into trouble with physical keyboards, according to Motorola's Rick Osterloh. Keyboards "make it so you have to cut the screen size down, or have a slider form factor which adds a considerable amount of cost, thickness, and weight to the product."
> About the exiting hardware business, I don't think it will be too long before BB finally crashes down and gets sold
That thought ought to scare current OEMs: I'm sure BB will "pivot" into IP Licensing thereafter. Then again they don't need to be sold before they start doing that
A couple months ago I took the letters off the keys on my iPhone (my keyboard looks like a grid of white squares, jailbreak required). I can confirm touch typing on a touch screen is definitely possible and actually very convenient. I don't even miss the lettering anymore. Besides the fact that blank keys just look cool, I've seen a notable increase in my typing speed.
Yes. As far as productivity is concerned Android or iPhone did not match my blackberry. I remember typing out entire class assignments on my phone during train journeys and sending hundreds of BBM messages every day. I barely do it with iPhone. There are simply too many distractions.
I think Blackberry is a bit like Yahoo! where they focused too much on sales and marketing and did not invest well in engineering and product design. When even Gingerbread Android could detect dates in emails and let me create Calendar events based on that Blackberry could not do such a simple thing.
Yes! I own a BB classic and it's the best. The problem is BB has larger ambitions, and can't just reconcile itself to serving the relatively small market of power users. They want to be everywhere. They could charge a premium for Classic and just occupy that niche, but no, they have to throw it all away. I'm just hoping that whoever designed Classic is going to get frustrated and go do some open source hardware. Now that would be a silver lining.
I own a Priv and this news makes me sad. The Priv is not perfect, but it's the only phone that allows me to run my company for most part of the day without a laptop.
BlackBerry's keyboard is its killer app. I still cant type on my touchscreen without looking. When I was 14 I was able to have a conversation via text under the table while eating dinner with my family thanks to my old keyboard phone. If a android phone was released with a keyboard I think it could carve out a profitable chunk of the market.
There have been many failed attempts at exactly that. Those who want a keyboard are vocal about the ostensible size of the market but don't seem to spend enough money to support the claim.
I'd been holding out hope for a good Blackberry Classic-like with Android for a while (like others in the thread, clearly). If the BB Rome/Mercury is indeed cancelled, my only other hope is that a future Fairphone[1] device gets a physical keyboard module. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of hope that it'd be anywhere near as good as a BB keyboard, nor that it'd have features like sliding over the keyboard to move the cursor/scroll a page like recent BBs have had.
How many companies not named Apple are doing great hardware AND software anymore? Sounds like a cold world for these types of players... Seems more and more people who did both are simply picking one side anymore.
Yeah, even BB10 was pretty solid. It was a completely different operating system that kept the name, and the result was that nobody realized how much it had changed.
Hardware seemed nice and it had the latest security updates.
Ironically, it was security that put me off BlackBerry as a brand.
There was the whole mess over whether their messaging systems were actually secure in technical terms, and the final conclusion seemed to be that some of them weren't. Apple handled the related issues much better.
More than that, when they brought out the Priv and made a big deal about putting their DTEK software on top of Android for security and privacy, there was a glaring hole in their presentation: it was all about detecting bad things when they were already happening, but I never found a single reference to preventing those bad things from happening in the first place.
Those two issues convinced me very clearly that modern BlackBerry is more about style than substance when it comes to security and privacy. It's sad, because as someone with a very productivity/professional focus with mobile devices, I should have been their ideal customer and they should have been the closest to my ideal phone maker of any of the major brands.
When Blackberry went Android, they threw security out the window. Until Marshmallow, Android made absolutely no attempt at any kind of security whatsoever - any app could read anything on your phone and there was nothing you could do to stop it - messages, contacts, microphone, location - and to this day, apps still have to voluntarily opt in to the permission system.
That was one of my big concerns when I looked into the Priv around the time it launched. I think they were on Lollipop at the time. It seemed their tools would tell you what apps were doing with your data and sensors, but there was a notable lack of any claims about actually stopping that behaviour if you didn't want to allow it.
Since Marshmallow had been released a few weeks earlier, that meant Android on the Priv, even with BlackBerry's software on top, seemed to be less secure against typical app abuses than any of the flagship Android devices updated to run Marshmallow.
That totally untrue. You needed to ask for permission for those things at install time. It wasn't a great system, sure, but what you said is objectively false.
And apps do not have to voluntarily opt in to the permission system. Any app that targets Android 6 or later is required to use it.
Android has enough security problems without having to make them up.
>You needed to ask for permission for those things at install time
No, apps didn't have to ask. They had to tell you, but they didn't ask - you couldn't say no. All you could do is never install the app, which we all know is not realistic. Everybody's just clicking straight through that screen because every app simply requests almost every permission. People aren't gonna buy a 1000$ phone and then not install Facebook because it needs Contacts permission.
Personally, I just gave up on Android and got an iPhone.
> Any app that targets Android 6 or later is required to use it.
Sure, but apps can simply target Android 5 to avoid it. It's not like enough Android phones get updates for apps to be able to be exclusive to anything less than Android ~4 years old.
I'll concede my wording should've been more specific, but my main point is correct.
There is a growing market for "dumb phones" among those of us that are disillusioned with the smartphone lifestyle. It's not enormous, but it's out there. Blackberry needs to target them.
If you buy a dumb phone, you not only give up the life-sucking abyss of social media and mobile gaming, but you also give up decent cameras and useful tools like navigation, group messages, and keyboard typing.
For those that want to escape the hole of smartphone existence, there is a horrible trade-off to be made. Basic tools we are used to having must be given up just for us to escape mobile app hell. It shouldn't be that way.
I want a Blackberry that allows me to group message, use a mobile browser, use GPS navigation, take great photos, and type on their excellent physical keyboard without any of the other temptations that come with smartphones. As a bonus, I would love for it to be super secure. If they created a device for me that did that, I would pay them so much money.
Why? Dumb phones are more or less a commodity - margins are tiny, and volumes are likely small.
If Blackberry lost at the high-end smartphone game, then switching to enterprise security or whatever they're working on makes way more sense than shipping a few hundred thousand units of $100 dumb phones.
If you read my full post, I'm arguing for them to change the paradigm of the "dumb phone." A dumb phone as it stands now is a commodity. I'm arguing that there exists an untapped market of people who want a hybrid, capable of filling the multi-functional tool role of a smartphone WITHOUT the focus on social media, video, music, and other entertainment roles.
Why do I need to buy a flagship smartphone to get the best camera? Why do I need to buy a smartphone to get group messages? Why do I need to buy a smartphone to use my phone as a flashlight or navigate with Google Maps? Why do I need to buy a smartphone to type on an intuitive keyboard?
I'm not a teenager. I want a productivity device, not a gaming system or a miniature television or a twitter feed.
There's already a pretty wide spectrum of smart phones on the market. You don't have to spend half your monthly income on a handset to get navigation, messaging, etc.
True, but then you sacrifice other features in the package. You can't pay with NFC on a cheap phone. The cameras suck on cheap phones. The screen quality sucks. The build quality sucks. There are tradeoffs if you just go cheap.
I would pay flagship prices for a hybrid phone that focused on productivity and ignored entertainment.
Android and Apple do also focus on productivity as well as entertainment. It sounds like what you're asking for is basically a high end phone but only supporting a subset of apps and a slide out keyboard. This sounds like commercial suicide in my opinion.
As much as I'd love to see more handsets with physical keyboard, they never seem to sell well enough for manufacturers to invest in releasing more models. And I really don't know where you would draw the line with which apps to allow and which not to. There'll always be someone with slightly different requirements who would refuse to buy the handset because application x or y wasn't available.
I just can't see how your preferences would equate to a big enough market for Blackberry to make any money.
> "As much as I'd love to see more handsets with physical keyboard, they never seem to sell well enough for manufacturers to invest in releasing more models."
Because like the Priv, they attach keyboards to massive screens. Those screens aren't necessary in a productivity phone. They make it unwieldy and ridiculous to use. The form factor of a Blackberry Classic is all you need, just integrate with Android.
The form factor of a Blackberry Classic is all you need, just integrate with Android.
I think you just inadvertently highlighted why that business model would be so difficult.
I was almost 100% with you in this thread until that point. I too would like to have a modern phone with a good hardware spec that is primarily a communications tool and personal organiser, rather than an entertainment product. I would like good battery life, security, privacy, and a convenient, robust design that fits in my hand and my pocket. I don't see any phone on the market today that is anywhere close to meeting my ideal requirements.
But then you mentioned Android, and for me that would immediately raise security and privacy issues because of all the Google integration.
Have you actually tried buying a flagship phone that doesn't do things like phoning home to Google or Apple lately? It is absurdly difficult to buy and set up any modern smartphone so it is reasonably secure and private and it just functions as a good phone with some extra connectivity.
Even for geeks like the HN crowd it's difficult to determine reliably what is really happening on your device and what you can trust, and the average customer has no chance whatsoever. Thus we see the kind of sentiment that started this discussion, where some people want to get away from the mess and the creepy factor and go back to having a device that just worked.
This is completely off topic, and they weren't looking to get away from the "mess and creepy factor", they were concerned about the temptation of installing Facebook.
If you really think that security and privacy are off-topic in a discussion about wanting a phone with a focus on useful productivity functions rather than entertainment apps, I think you're missing one of the main reasons for smartphone fatigue. camelNotation themselves mentioned the desire for high security, right there in the top comment that started this thread.
Personally, I just use a "feature phone" and avoid the smartphone game today. I get to make calls, I pay hundreds of pounds less per year, and I only have to charge the battery every few days.
I was just agreeing with another poster that there is a market out there for something beyond that without going to the full smartphone-and-apps, entertainment-device model. I have enough businesses already without starting another one for this, but if anyone did want to, I'd be an interested potential customer, is all I'm saying.
I'm not the one complaining that there isn't a phone catered to me.
"I was just agreeing with another poster that there is a market out there for something beyond that without going to the full smartphone-and-apps, entertainment-device model. "
What you described there is a middle ground few people want. Those that buy "dumb" phones do so because they want to uncomplicate the basics. eg a real keypad for dialing. Those that want GPS, a web browser and group messaging want a smart phone.
The simplest solution if you don't want social networks et al is to just not install them. Or if you want to avoid "app hell" is to not install mobile apps for websites. These days the only 3rd party apps I commonly use is Google Authenticator, Facebook, Subsonic and LG TV Remote (I have a 2 year old so my actual TV remote often becomes an item of folklore). Even in the case of YouTube I often find myself using the YouTube mobile website instead of the app.
I'm not sure why it makes more sense for a company like ZTE or OnePlus to sell a handful of cheap flagships as opposed to one of these smaller firms producing the hybrid niche device I describe.
I think you answered your own question when you said "niche device". Cheap flagships would naturally have a bigger market than an expensive smartphone with crippled app support.
Just out of curiosity, why can't you uninstall the apps that you deem unproductive or distracting? I have uninstalled all the social, distracting, unproductive apps from my smartphone. Granted, most smartphones don't have keyboards. Other than that you should be ok with a smartphone.
There's a difference between "impossible to install" and "must restrain self from installing".
Not OP, but I'm guessing that's where they're coming from. I've had situations where "impossible" was significantly more productive for me than "difficult".
It's almost everything that you are looking for, except for the physical keyboard. The Lumia line has some pretty good phones and you get all the basics of a modern smartphone (good cameras, email, browser, GPS, etc.) but the app store doesn't have a lot of apps to distract you.
My Lumia 735 does all the modern basics very well and everything I need in a phone. But the App store is like a ghost town so very little to distract you. It has some popular apps, but even then they not updated or poorly done to same ones on iOS/Droid.
I am coming from two years with a Blackberry Z10 myself and using WM10 now for 6 months has pleasantly made me a believer in it. It is simple, smooth and pretty well thought out. I am really surprised it doesn't gain more ground, but the world is all about APPS rather than the technical merits of the OS (otherwise BB10 would have become more popular).
The WM10 virtual keyboard is the best stock i've used and even beats the 3rd party ones i've tried on droid. It has awesome word prediction and built in swipe typing for those that prefer that. Cortana is VERY well done and again easily competes with Siri (I've actually had to whip out my phone a few times to quickly just find what my wife was asking for on her iPhone). Edge browser is fast and nimble (plus will be getting extensions soon I hope). Maps also is good enough. But best feature, to me, is how well WM10 ties into your Microsoft life; Office/Outlook plus Onedrive.
Just go through the settings to turn off any privacy stuff you may have concern with and it is a good modern phone for someone like me who has zero social media life other than texts. You can also get even a flagship phone used pretty cheap now as well. I am looking forward to the new Surface phone.
There are millions, maybe hundreds of millions of feature phones of every type out there that you can get for pennies, used, in fine condition. Many times more than there are buyers for those phones. There is no reason to make a new feature phone for the developed world market. I have a shoebox full of them.
We have a failing hardware business, so lets fix that by targeting a small market segment which also happens to have nothing to do with our core business.
Anybody can escape app hell. Just don't download apps. Whatever happened to self restraint and discipline? It's like saying I'm gonna throw my TV out because I'm watching too much tv. The correct solution is watch less tv.
They should have done this 5 years ago. Dozens Chinese companies can produce quality phones with keyboard.
Imagine if BB would produce hardened-secured-enterprisey version of Android, rather than doing their 'not invented here'. They could had 30% of market by now.
> Imagine if BB would produce hardened-secured-enterprisey version of Android, rather than doing their 'not invented here'. They could had 30% of market by now.
Doubt it. People don't care about security. If people cared then other companies would just bother to release security updates and try to actually harden android.
There were plenty of consumers buying Blackberries. As sales contracted, most companies will try to regain that, as opposed to admitting defeat and refocusing on core competencies, especially when you're publicly traded.
It eventually became a point where the iPhone was a better consumer and professional device. The Blackberry simply wasn't a real smartphone with a real OS.
The iPhone is not a better professional device than a BB OS device from an organizational standpoint. For instance as an MDM administrator you can't control the OS version of company devices other than saying it must be within a range for the device to connect to company resources. This creates a risk that users will update the OS before a required app supports the new version. You also can not capture SMS/iMessage data which leaves regulated industries needing third party solutions which are not carrier agnostic (eg Smarsh). Apple is slowly catching up with features like DEP, VPP, and supervised mode but it has a long way to go.
They were ruling the world until smartphones without keyboards became cheap. The demand for a tactile keyboard shrunk to India and a bunch of old men and women running the government. Now they don't even use them anymore.
I'd still pay good money for an Android phone with a proper landscape slide out keyboard. Think an updated G1/Dream or G2/Desire Z but with a nice 5"+ screen and top tier specs.
BlackBerry owns a bunch of patents around Elliptic Curve Cryptography [1] - since they own Certicom [2]. Maybe they're going to troll as a business model?
Thanks re: [0]! Re [1] wouldn't openssl/boringssl/etc be the most widely used ECC library? Most people are using ECC with older style non-Edwards curves, also openssl has curve25519 in the next major release. NaCl seems to only do newer algos according to https://nacl.cr.yp.to/securing-communication.pdf - what software uses NaCl now? Thanks!
On mobile trends: "The most exciting mobile trend is full Qwerty keyboards. I'm sorry, it really is. I'm not making this up." Lazaridis, May 2008. Almost Trump-like in his dogged grasp of fantasy.
BB's strong suit isn't software or hardware. It's semi-competent at both.
BBM is amazing and BB10 OS is pretty amazing (name a phone that can multi-task now, i.e. play youtube and write an email). But it also has lots of stinkers.
The keyboard is pretty rocking, devices can take a beating, but BB has various hardware issues. Battery pulling to solve problems etc.
Now that they are going android, nobody knew that the world could only support 2 phone ecosystems as opposed to 3, i think they need to leverage the strengths. Keep making the excellent software, cut the chafe (BB virtual keyboard, BB Hub, BBM, etc). Also they have should leverage their hardware group and make excellent and robust android phones.
1. keep making the BB Classic using android OS. People want it.
2. Make phones that are robust. People want phones that can be beat up,
3. Make android phones that have better than 2 years of support. iPhones support 3-5 years which is amazing compared to android. I want to buy an android phone that i don't have to throw out every 2 years. They have excellent devs that could extend the shelf life of older android versions or just BB phones.
as an owner of an Android black berry, i say they are killing the wrong side.
the hardware is still good (Android phone with slide out keyboard where each key has capacitive touch sensors)
the software not only is pure garbage, it keeps getting worse with each update.
if blackberry did open hardware, and released all specs so we could have true open Android phones, it would dominate the market as the pc clones dominated the computer market of the past.
169 comments
[ 4.8 ms ] story [ 201 ms ] threadOr do they have an amazing piece of software that I'm missing out on?
It's massively overpriced for what it is, but people still seem to be buying it.
http://ca.blackberry.com/enterprise.html
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/rcmp-blackberry-hack-montr...
I had half an eye open for the next model in the Classic range, to switch from Android.
As my usage has changed the last few years, having a proper keyboard again is more appealing, along with less desire for a passive consumption tablet.
They did that already. BlackBerry's last two phones were 100% pure Android devices, with full access to Play Store apps, Gmail, Google Maps, Google Docs, etc, just like every other major Android phone has.
They are reorganizing around the IoT movement as their software assets can be retooled for more lucrative "connected devices" markets outside of smartphones.
- You can rest your fingers on the keyboard like on a real keyboard without pressing the keys (you can't do that on a touch screen)
- After a short time you start to touch type; although it's possible with an iPhone too, it's not that convenient and most keep looking on their keyboards
- Cursor control with the BB mini trackpad above the keyboard (Classic and other models), is just terrific and often needed
- Best is that all good apps including the launcher support keyboard short-cuts and you will heavily use them since the keyboard is always present (Classic and other models)
- To give you a comparison: using a BB with a keyboard feels like using Vim vs a GUI-based editor; you use Vim only with Vim's key binding fast and reliable, no need to open sliding menus, touch buttons, etc.; it's very satisfying and I really miss those times
The path BB went the recent months—putting Android on BB devices + some extra security stuff (the so called DTEK)—was a good decision. But they brought the super expensive Priv device with a slider keyboard which is for a BB rather mediocre and not like the ones from the Classic, Bold, etc. Few weeks ago, they brought us a non keyboard Alcatel-OEM phone which does not differ from any other Android except this DTEK software which you can just download on any phone (why???).
What they just need to do is to put Android on the Blackberry Classic or some phone with a similar form factor. That's it. Before they don't do this final step, they can't claim that hardware is not profitable. I don't get why the CEO didn't do this as the first thing when he started his Android strategy.
Yeah, but does that really matter any more? I've found that my iPhone's speech-to-text is pretty darned good, as long as I speak with a slightly staccato cadence to make it clear where the word divisions are. I can do that much more quickly than I can type. Generally I only have problems when the connection to the server doing the conversion is poor.
I've never used Android's speech-to-text, but I have to assume it is equivalent. Can an experienced BB typist really outperform speech-to-text conversion?
Even if just talk about text creation which involves editing. Speech-to-text is impressive but once you start to edit your text you need a keyboard and perfect cursor control.
Worse, when it gets something wrong, it can be completely wrong. It doesn't help that editing is kind of a pain on iOS either, with annoying long touches and the still awkward text selection system.
Just saying, as an ex-n900 user, that niche market is much smaller than we think. I wouldn't go back to a n900 equivalent today. Typing accents in French or non-latin characters was pretty annoying.
Tbh, I find it kind of creepy to have Apple, Google, Microsoft or Amazon listen to everything I say. I prefer keyboards
Accents: Supposedly it works well for US english. I don't speak US english. Trying to force it usually works worse than when I had to force myself to speak Finland-Swedish for my old Nokia phones.
Punctuation: It's really annoying to have to say "dot" or "comma" all the time, and it often seems to get it wrong anyway.
Vocabulary: When messaging I rarely only use "common" words. Gaming stuff gets garbled (I just tried, and it interpreted "raid at 8" as "Friday 8"), and band names or tech-related stuff doesn't fare much better. Bonus points if it's a weird spelling or international name. Good luck getting it to recognize Movits!, Dimaa, or Nekrogoblikon, you'll need it.
Correction: I often say the bad thing, especially when under pressure from the STT timeout. AFAIK there is no way to have it delete the last N words.
Multiple languages: I switch between Swedish and English often enough that I usually forget to switch keyboard. For a keyboard this means getting wrong autocorrections, for voice input this means getting garbage. I know Android STT supports selecting multiple languages, but then it gets confused and switches back and forth all the time.
At this point, I basically only use the voice input for setting bed/egg timers with Google Now. I would use it for navigation home/to work, but I don't have a car and Maps' bike instructions are awful.
I see many older folks still use it like those 2-ways of yesteryear. Unsurprisingly they aren't too comfortable responding via text.
I don't think Chen understands device strategy, or cares much for it. Because every BB user has been asking for the exact same thing you just mentioned -- for years -- and they still haven't done it.
It'll never beat Apple or Samsung in popularity. But if they just released a single solid high-end Android phone with a real BlackBerry keyboard every two years, that product line would quietly print free money forever. It's a niche product, but a fairly large niche.
Yes, that's true and so sad.
I would immediately pay $1,000 for a BB Classic running Android unseen.
[1] https://termux.com/
[2] https://github.com/termux
[3] http://www.slashgear.com/blackberry-mercury-rome-renderings-...
How large?
Nougat's multi-window mode should make developers care even more about it.
Android doesn't sit well with me, and I've given it several good runs. I'm also at this point firmly entrenched in the Apple ecosystem (AppleTV, Macs in the house, etc.)
And I'd still pay full retail price for such a phone. Seems to me that's BB's once last true shot at remaining a going entity. But, as already pointed out, Chen just seems incapable of getting it.
I would buy this so fast. There's slim pickins for android phones w/ keyboards.
I can get a device like a OnePlus 3 for about 60% of the price and it has better hardware to boot. In terms of storage, RAM and CPU it's more comparable to a OnePlus 2 which is about 40% of its price.
Keyboard is nice, but not double the price and lose features I rely upon like AdAway and XPrivacy kind of nice.
All the Blackberry had was a hardware keyboard. Everything else about the platform and OS was vastly weaker. Apple and Google have real, full-fledged OSes (Blackberry eventually got this, but it was really a feature phone with QWERTY keyboard). I do all kinds of productivity and work tasks on my iPhone and the keyboard text input is a small part of that.
Having a real Web browser is mission critical for the work that I do. When the iPhone first came out, that was the No. 1 reason I went with the iPhone over a Blackberry.
The iPhone also has a very robust application ecosystem that is powered by the fact that all iPhones have come with large (by Blackberry standards) responsive touchscreens. I use project management software on my phone. I have note taking programs that sync with desktop. I can even SSH into a server and update html files.
Apple put real computers in users' pockets. Blackberry just made texting and writing emails (not even full-fledged emails either!) easier to write. That's it.
For some people email is all they're looking to do and that's why it feels so much more productive. Unfortunately for BlackBerry it's a pretty small niche.
The problem is that for some reason most companies think they have to be growing tremendously or it's not worth being in business. You can make really good money on a niche - but I guess it's not enough for the current BB executives.
http://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/features/the-21-greatest-...
You also have to keep in mind that companies switched from providing devices for employees to providing subsidizes for cell service. That's what my company does. They pay for my cell plan, but I bring my own device. When companies went away from providing people with Blackberries, that also helped doom the company.
Their core issue was that they didn't believe the iPhone was real when it was demoed in January 2007. They thought it was fake. It took them far too long to realize that Apple's vision was the right one. Had they got that immediately like Google, they might still be here today.
Blackberry did make great keyboards and their hardware was nice. BBM was an original messaging leader, but they rested on their laurels.
They've always made very competitive hardware.
But the hardware keyboards were great, as was the consistency of the interface that it allowed, something which Android and iOS need to learn about.
I also think that QNX/BB10 was a great platform. Probably the best mobile OS at the time of its release.
Windows 8 was a really good mobile OS, but it had the same issue.
Even without apps, it would run out of RAM, CPU, etc.
For a company which makes both the device and OS, there's no excuse for that kind of behavior.
On my Android phone, I've even begun "touch swiping," using swipe gestures without looking while leaning heavily on the autocompleter.
http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/135924-blackberry-vienna-mer...
You can do most things with keyboard shortcuts in Kate and Eclipse.
Rant over, sorry for derailing the thread. This is a touchy subject.
About the exiting hardware business, I don't think it will be too long before BB finally crashes down and gets sold. The differentiator for them has been hardware since they ditched BBOS for Android (not saying it was a bad decission, that thing was horrible), now what's left is some java apps and some branding to put on some random ODM... Until a Microsoft, Lenovo etc gets in and buys them for their IP
My understanding is that there are several patents in this space that need to be licensed, coupled with everyone wants to copycat the best selling phones, and don't want to design a "niche" product that looks old fashioned.
Google's Andy Rubin has a patent on one design!
https://www.google.com/patents/US8488778
It's also difficult to design a slider with a large screen and not have the phone be unwieldy.
http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/15/5104704/i-come-not-to-pra...
"And that's where you run into trouble with physical keyboards, according to Motorola's Rick Osterloh. Keyboards "make it so you have to cut the screen size down, or have a slider form factor which adds a considerable amount of cost, thickness, and weight to the product."
That thought ought to scare current OEMs: I'm sure BB will "pivot" into IP Licensing thereafter. Then again they don't need to be sold before they start doing that
I think Blackberry is a bit like Yahoo! where they focused too much on sales and marketing and did not invest well in engineering and product design. When even Gingerbread Android could detect dates in emails and let me create Calendar events based on that Blackberry could not do such a simple thing.
Yes, BB may have had better keyboards, but I don't think it's really that huge of a market.
[1] https://fairphone.com/
Maybe they just need to rebrand.
Ironically, it was security that put me off BlackBerry as a brand.
There was the whole mess over whether their messaging systems were actually secure in technical terms, and the final conclusion seemed to be that some of them weren't. Apple handled the related issues much better.
More than that, when they brought out the Priv and made a big deal about putting their DTEK software on top of Android for security and privacy, there was a glaring hole in their presentation: it was all about detecting bad things when they were already happening, but I never found a single reference to preventing those bad things from happening in the first place.
Those two issues convinced me very clearly that modern BlackBerry is more about style than substance when it comes to security and privacy. It's sad, because as someone with a very productivity/professional focus with mobile devices, I should have been their ideal customer and they should have been the closest to my ideal phone maker of any of the major brands.
Since Marshmallow had been released a few weeks earlier, that meant Android on the Priv, even with BlackBerry's software on top, seemed to be less secure against typical app abuses than any of the flagship Android devices updated to run Marshmallow.
And apps do not have to voluntarily opt in to the permission system. Any app that targets Android 6 or later is required to use it.
Android has enough security problems without having to make them up.
No, apps didn't have to ask. They had to tell you, but they didn't ask - you couldn't say no. All you could do is never install the app, which we all know is not realistic. Everybody's just clicking straight through that screen because every app simply requests almost every permission. People aren't gonna buy a 1000$ phone and then not install Facebook because it needs Contacts permission.
Personally, I just gave up on Android and got an iPhone.
> Any app that targets Android 6 or later is required to use it.
Sure, but apps can simply target Android 5 to avoid it. It's not like enough Android phones get updates for apps to be able to be exclusive to anything less than Android ~4 years old.
I'll concede my wording should've been more specific, but my main point is correct.
On the other hand, they screwed themselves pretty good.
If you buy a dumb phone, you not only give up the life-sucking abyss of social media and mobile gaming, but you also give up decent cameras and useful tools like navigation, group messages, and keyboard typing.
For those that want to escape the hole of smartphone existence, there is a horrible trade-off to be made. Basic tools we are used to having must be given up just for us to escape mobile app hell. It shouldn't be that way.
I want a Blackberry that allows me to group message, use a mobile browser, use GPS navigation, take great photos, and type on their excellent physical keyboard without any of the other temptations that come with smartphones. As a bonus, I would love for it to be super secure. If they created a device for me that did that, I would pay them so much money.
Why? Dumb phones are more or less a commodity - margins are tiny, and volumes are likely small.
If Blackberry lost at the high-end smartphone game, then switching to enterprise security or whatever they're working on makes way more sense than shipping a few hundred thousand units of $100 dumb phones.
Why do I need to buy a flagship smartphone to get the best camera? Why do I need to buy a smartphone to get group messages? Why do I need to buy a smartphone to use my phone as a flashlight or navigate with Google Maps? Why do I need to buy a smartphone to type on an intuitive keyboard?
I'm not a teenager. I want a productivity device, not a gaming system or a miniature television or a twitter feed.
I would pay flagship prices for a hybrid phone that focused on productivity and ignored entertainment.
As much as I'd love to see more handsets with physical keyboard, they never seem to sell well enough for manufacturers to invest in releasing more models. And I really don't know where you would draw the line with which apps to allow and which not to. There'll always be someone with slightly different requirements who would refuse to buy the handset because application x or y wasn't available.
I just can't see how your preferences would equate to a big enough market for Blackberry to make any money.
Because like the Priv, they attach keyboards to massive screens. Those screens aren't necessary in a productivity phone. They make it unwieldy and ridiculous to use. The form factor of a Blackberry Classic is all you need, just integrate with Android.
I think you just inadvertently highlighted why that business model would be so difficult.
I was almost 100% with you in this thread until that point. I too would like to have a modern phone with a good hardware spec that is primarily a communications tool and personal organiser, rather than an entertainment product. I would like good battery life, security, privacy, and a convenient, robust design that fits in my hand and my pocket. I don't see any phone on the market today that is anywhere close to meeting my ideal requirements.
But then you mentioned Android, and for me that would immediately raise security and privacy issues because of all the Google integration.
Even for geeks like the HN crowd it's difficult to determine reliably what is really happening on your device and what you can trust, and the average customer has no chance whatsoever. Thus we see the kind of sentiment that started this discussion, where some people want to get away from the mess and the creepy factor and go back to having a device that just worked.
Personally, I just use a "feature phone" and avoid the smartphone game today. I get to make calls, I pay hundreds of pounds less per year, and I only have to charge the battery every few days.
I was just agreeing with another poster that there is a market out there for something beyond that without going to the full smartphone-and-apps, entertainment-device model. I have enough businesses already without starting another one for this, but if anyone did want to, I'd be an interested potential customer, is all I'm saying.
I'm not the one complaining that there isn't a phone catered to me.
"I was just agreeing with another poster that there is a market out there for something beyond that without going to the full smartphone-and-apps, entertainment-device model. "
There really isn't, though.
Having an integrated camera got me used to taking more pictures, but now I use an actual camera 99% of the time.
The simplest solution if you don't want social networks et al is to just not install them. Or if you want to avoid "app hell" is to not install mobile apps for websites. These days the only 3rd party apps I commonly use is Google Authenticator, Facebook, Subsonic and LG TV Remote (I have a 2 year old so my actual TV remote often becomes an item of folklore). Even in the case of YouTube I often find myself using the YouTube mobile website instead of the app.
Not OP, but I'm guessing that's where they're coming from. I've had situations where "impossible" was significantly more productive for me than "difficult".
It's almost everything that you are looking for, except for the physical keyboard. The Lumia line has some pretty good phones and you get all the basics of a modern smartphone (good cameras, email, browser, GPS, etc.) but the app store doesn't have a lot of apps to distract you.
My Lumia 735 does all the modern basics very well and everything I need in a phone. But the App store is like a ghost town so very little to distract you. It has some popular apps, but even then they not updated or poorly done to same ones on iOS/Droid.
I am coming from two years with a Blackberry Z10 myself and using WM10 now for 6 months has pleasantly made me a believer in it. It is simple, smooth and pretty well thought out. I am really surprised it doesn't gain more ground, but the world is all about APPS rather than the technical merits of the OS (otherwise BB10 would have become more popular).
The WM10 virtual keyboard is the best stock i've used and even beats the 3rd party ones i've tried on droid. It has awesome word prediction and built in swipe typing for those that prefer that. Cortana is VERY well done and again easily competes with Siri (I've actually had to whip out my phone a few times to quickly just find what my wife was asking for on her iPhone). Edge browser is fast and nimble (plus will be getting extensions soon I hope). Maps also is good enough. But best feature, to me, is how well WM10 ties into your Microsoft life; Office/Outlook plus Onedrive.
Just go through the settings to turn off any privacy stuff you may have concern with and it is a good modern phone for someone like me who has zero social media life other than texts. You can also get even a flagship phone used pretty cheap now as well. I am looking forward to the new Surface phone.
Further, while you say you'd pay them a lot of money, I really doubt anyone else would.
The Good Lord gave you free will, exercise it.
We have a failing hardware business, so lets fix that by targeting a small market segment which also happens to have nothing to do with our core business.
Makes sense.
Imagine if BB would produce hardened-secured-enterprisey version of Android, rather than doing their 'not invented here'. They could had 30% of market by now.
Isn't that exactly what the Priv was supposed to be?
Doubt it. People don't care about security. If people cared then other companies would just bother to release security updates and try to actually harden android.
What if they had focused on what they were good at?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECC_patents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlackBerry_Limited#Certicom
[0] http://cr.yp.to/ecdh/patents.html
[1] https://nacl.cr.yp.to/
Then I've got a Passport, which is the crappiest phone I've ever had. I did love the swipe to mail, message hub, scrolling keyboard and keyboard.
Reception was so bad to render it unusable.
It fell to the ground from hip level and had a cracked board.
"Android" compatibily never worked for me as most software I've tried to use needed Google Play services which were a pain to maintain and install.
BBM is amazing and BB10 OS is pretty amazing (name a phone that can multi-task now, i.e. play youtube and write an email). But it also has lots of stinkers.
The keyboard is pretty rocking, devices can take a beating, but BB has various hardware issues. Battery pulling to solve problems etc.
Now that they are going android, nobody knew that the world could only support 2 phone ecosystems as opposed to 3, i think they need to leverage the strengths. Keep making the excellent software, cut the chafe (BB virtual keyboard, BB Hub, BBM, etc). Also they have should leverage their hardware group and make excellent and robust android phones.
1. keep making the BB Classic using android OS. People want it. 2. Make phones that are robust. People want phones that can be beat up, 3. Make android phones that have better than 2 years of support. iPhones support 3-5 years which is amazing compared to android. I want to buy an android phone that i don't have to throw out every 2 years. They have excellent devs that could extend the shelf life of older android versions or just BB phones.
http://imgur.com/a/s9MpE
It's a Galaxy A5 (2016) and it's a fraction of the price of a Galaxy S7 or iPhone 7...
the hardware is still good (Android phone with slide out keyboard where each key has capacitive touch sensors)
the software not only is pure garbage, it keeps getting worse with each update.
if blackberry did open hardware, and released all specs so we could have true open Android phones, it would dominate the market as the pc clones dominated the computer market of the past.