HN Explorer

Ask HN: What cities have the best salary / cost of living ratio?

25 points by J-dawg ↗ HN
Globally speaking, what are the best places to live that have tech jobs and a good quality of life, without being too expensive?

I'm talking about places to both live and work, rather than the "digital nomad" places that are popular with remote workers.

43 comments

[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 93.7 ms ] thread
cjbprime
US tech salaries still seem to be disproportionately higher than elsewhere, so perhaps places like Seattle, Austin, D.C., Raleigh NC, St. Louis.
brtw
Austin salaries are pretty low, as is cost of living. But imho working for the rate here isn't worth your time.
hood_syntax
The best area I'm familiar with is Research Triangle Park (RTP). Above average salaries and relatively low cost of living. There's a growing food scene, people are active and it's at the beginning of a cultural renewal imo. Of course, being in NC comes with some problems due to the legacy of racism that exists in some pockets of society (pretty easy to avoid, you'll know it when you see it), but I loved growing up there.
SpendBig
Depends on your goals and definition of good quality of life. I think there is no best place for a avarage developer. Every life is so unique, skills are so leveled per de developer and matching economics and jobs on these are very specific.

As a dutch man, i can tell you just my experience as a software developer that here in the big cities are enough places to get jobs. Daily mails from recruiters sesrching for new candidates to be places at all sorts of companies. Living here matched about the avarage income to live in a small home with wife and kid.

countryqt30
Clearly Zurich, this can be back-checked with several studies. Of all countries, it's Switzerland that has the best ratio. Within CH, it's ZH.
kspaans
NPR had an excellent blog post about this last year: http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/05/20/313131559/how-f...

Doesn't show tech salaries, but instead avg income adjusted for cost of living in that city. It will help you gauge which cities are more expensive.

zumu
DC always looks good in these because they never take into account all the cheap rents are in neighborhoods your average young professional is not going to wanna live in. I don't care how progressive you are--you're not moving to Anacostia.
larrykubin
If you are in tech, Seattle has high salaries and no state income tax. Housing costs are rising, but I had a nice 1BR in Capitol Hill for ~ 1700 before buying a 3 BR townhouse in West Seattle with the same monthly cost for mortgage and taxes combined. Walk scores > 90 in both neighborhoods I've lived in and have never had a car. The equivalent housing would cost at least double in the Bay Area. Unfortunately, the winter in Seattle is a downer and it's a bit weird socially.
mikestew
Unfortunately, the winter in Seattle is a downer

Some people get used to it. I did. But I'm from the Midwest, so my perspective is "hey, at least I don't have to shovel it". Me, since we've spent the summer doing outdoor stuff, it gives me a few months to catch up on more indoorsy stuff. Get caught up on reading, spend more time with my musical instruments, that kind of thing.

But still get outside: wear your headlamp, put your Gortex(tm) on, try to hold on until March.

alexbanks
Is 1700 for a 1BR considered "Low COL" ?
kentt
Not to me, but perhaps in Capitol Hill it is and that's what the parent meant.
larrykubin
This isn't low compared to much of the country, but is pretty good for the relative quality of life and high salary that we are talking about. This is within walking distance of Pike Place and Melrose Market, music venues (Neumo's, Crocodile, numerous jazz clubs), theaters (Paramount, Moore), light rail to the airport, retail, high paying employment (Amazon, Redfin, Facebook, etc), and some great food/drink options.
lockedoutwhoops
Much less expensive than San Francisco and Silicon Valley. Those are in the $3,000-$5,000 range if you don't want to commute.
zumu
Capitol Hill is the absolute trendiest part of town. A lot of people live on the north or west sides of town. Some friends of mine split a house for $500 a piece about a single 30-45 minute bus ride from their office downtown.
ThrustVectoring
Seattle pretty much a hard no if you've got any sort of seasonal affective disorder. It's number 1 in the US for number of cloudy days per year.
zumu
It is not significantly less sunny than many northern US cities also mentioned in this thread--Cleveland, Pittsburg, Buffalo, etc...
FT_intern
This, especially if you work at a Bay area company paying bay area compensation in Seattle
uola
I've spent some time thinking about this and while it's hard to reach a conclusive answer as a generic one I would say a second tier city in western Europe. You still get a fairly functional state, internationalism and good quality of life without having to pay first tier city prices for housing and consumables. Which city is much harder to answer of course, suggestions are welcome.
automaticearth
Portland, Oregon. Dense, VERY walkable/bikeable, substantial amount of tech jobs, and more affordable than other major US metros with comparable amenities.
tmaly
I did a stint out there at Intel in 99. It was a really cool city. I second your suggestion.
cylinder
Really depends on the person. There are people who think somewhere in Ohio is awesome because of the cheap houses and low COL, and there are others who would be suicidal living there.

You'll have to figure out what you want out of a place besides just low COL. You can't just mitigate your disdain for a place by looking at your savings account. That's one positive about my time in NYC, the city really forces you to figure out what you want in a place to live.

remyp
Chicago. Affordable rent[1], dense, car optional, highly walkable, good transit, best biking city in the country[2], phenomenal restaurants and beer. I've met several visiting New Yorkers that refer to Chicago as a "smaller, cleaner New York." I've been here 8 years and have never had trouble finding a new programming job when I wanted one.

People will decry the violence (of which the vast majority is confined to the disadvantaged parts of the city[3]) and the weather (which you get used to and should stop being a wimp about), but I find the salary / cost of living ratio far outweighs the disadvantages.

[1] https://www.thrillist.com/lifestyle/chicago/the-l-rent-map-w...

[2] http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-bicycli...

[3] http://crime.chicagotribune.com/chicago/homicides

cbHXBY1D
Do any of the large tech companies (Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Apple) have offices in Chicago?
remyp
Google has a significant presence, though my understanding is it's mostly sales.

Chicago has a well-diversified economy, so it's not dominated by any one industry or company. There are a ton of bigcorp jobs, but they're more likely to be for companies like Hyatt, Walgreens, McDonalds, United, Allstate, etc. Legal and finance (particularly quantitative & algorithmic trading) are big as well.

[deleted]
(comment deleted)
ansible
The Chicagoland area used to be a telecom powerhouse with plenty of software jobs in the area. This was 15 years ago.

We had: Motorola (before all the splits), Lucent, Westel, Telabs, USR, 3Com and more I'm probably forgetting.

FT_intern
No, the high compensation (and high head count) companies are HFT/prop trading firms
superuser2
Be warned that only finance-related jobs tend to be downtown; most "Chicago" cost center IT jobs are in low-rise office parks around Chicagoland sprawl and are an hour or more away from the city under normal traffic conditions.
hellofunk
Chicago culture is nothing like New York, however, so the comparison is a bit moot. Chicago is very much a Midwestern city with a Midwestern culture. And in my years living in Chicago, I didn't know a single person who didn't own a car, and most of them spent lots of time driving.
ultra12
As an anecdotal retort, I live in Chicago, not the suburbs, and known of 1 person who owns a car that I work with.

Unless you need to get out of the city, public transportation is very very good.

hellofunk
I think part of the issue is that Chicago's downtown and inner city are small enough that you typically do want to get out of town. Compared to cities like New York where people can easily go months, even years or decades, without ever thinking about leaving the city proper. That tends to be why so many people (vast majority) in Chicago own cars. And I've heard no end to the rants about trying to park in that town.
kasey_junk
> didn't know a single person who didn't own a car, and most of them spent lots of time driving.

Really? I know lots of people who don't own a car & many, many people who have never had a drivers license. Its clearly not as car free as NYC, but is anyplace in the USA?

I think one thing about Chicago is that there is a lot of variance in peoples experience. Living in Morgan Park is different than Lincoln Park which is different than Orland Park.

hellofunk
Maybe it's an age thing. In my age group, everyone has a car, but also many have children.
tptacek
More than half the Matasano office in Chicago didn't own a car, or, if they did, not one that actually worked. IIRC, one person owned a car and lost it for weeks after parking it on a street and not driving it for a couple months.

Lots of people in Chicago --- in the city proper --- don't have cars.

If you live in the suburbs of Chicago, you'll have a car.

NetStrikeForce
I always wanted to know why you chose that name for your company. I'm sure you know about it's origins :) is there somewhere where you wrote about it?
fitzwatermellow
Anyone else watching LeBron James' Cleveland Hustles on CNBC? It's pretty great. The lesson: energy and commitment trump geography and privilege every time. And $125K goes a long way in Ohio ;)

http://www.cnbc.com/cleveland-hustles/

Re-formatting mid-size post-industrial cities into thriving locally-focused entrepreneurial hubs provides an alternative to the NYC, LA, DC, SF model. Instead of seeking to re-locate, why not attempt to foster what you value in your own backyard first ;)

Small Tech Hubs: Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Nashville, and New Orleans want your startup

http://venturebeat.com/2016/06/26/small-tech-hubs-buffalo-pi...

playing_colours
Berlin, Germany. It's a good place for software engineers, particularly with some experience. The rent is still pretty good although growing. The salaries for software engineers vary, and it's usually better to go with more established companies rather than with yet another startup. The city has its multicultural vibe and one can enjoy night life, culture, etc.
sotojuan
I live in Sunset Park, Brooklyn next to the D train (20-30 mins to Manhattan) and I've made $80-95k and live quite comfortably, so if I make it over six figures I'll be more than fine. It's fairly cheap in terms of rent and groceries and I'm near all the fun stuff in Manhattan and other parts of Brooklyn. It's not the prettiest part of New York, though, but I like it here.

I don't know what the salary/cost ratio is, but I find it a non-issue. That said, I am 22 and have no children. I agree with another commenter here to said it depends on your lifestyle and hobbies.

debacle
Buffalo is really up and coming. We're starving for devs here and salaries are quickly going up. The cost of living is crazy low. The real estate market has been depressed for years - my house actually appreciated during the real estate crash. Commutes are short and your options are really varied as far as what kind of community you want to live in.
punk-coder
I've lived in Atlanta since 1997 and I always found the pay to be great, while the cost of living isn't all that bad.

I'm an application architect pulling in a little over $160k. I recently bought a house over in Decatur with my girlfriend. A nice 1920 craftsman, 2,400 sq ft, for $600k. Before that I rented a loft in an old converted warehouse that was a little over 2,500 sq ft, for $1,300 a month.

There is a lot of tech work here in Atlanta, and while we don't have the greatest public transportation compared to other cities, I haven't owned a car in 3 years. I take the train to work and use ZipCar/Uber when I really need a car.

If you live inside the perimeter there are great neighborhoods, great restaurants, and plenty of things to do.

Nicholas_C
I work in finance but Dallas is pretty great. The job market is incredible as well.