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Ask HN: No mechanical escape key in new Macbook Pros?

20 points by mattnedrich ↗ HN
I came across this photo (potential casing for new MBP): http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2016/05/macbook_pro_2016_case_top.jpg

Notice the missing top row of function keys. People have speculated that this top row may be replaced by an OLED touch screen.

Comparing the above photo to the Macbook keyboard, it would seem that the top row includes the escape key: http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2014/11/retinamacbookkeyboard-800x484.jpg

If this is the case, any software developer that uses the escape key a lot may not be very happy.

60 comments

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weinzierl
I'm in the market for the new MacBok Pro and the OLED row makes me excited, but as a Vim user the lack of an physical escape key would be problem for me.

I have Caps Lock mapped to Ctrl and I'm glad that MacOS provides this option out of the box, but Caps Lock as Esc is not an option for me. I hope there will be an out of the box way to map Escape to something sensible. I'd trade ~ for Esc anytime, as long as ~ and ` are accessible via the OLED strip.

mattnedrich
I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I'm a heavy vim user, and a weird ESC key would really suck. I may be able to get used to ~ as escape, would take some getting used to though.
serge2k
> OLED row makes me excited

Can't imagine why. It sounds incredibly dumb.

Probably have to live with it since no one else seems to be able to make a really high quality laptop. sigh.

busterarm
> Probably have to live with it since no one else seems to be able to make a really high quality laptop. sigh.

My solution to this has grown more and more to be "do everything on a remote box via SSH" and then it doesn't matter what laptop I use.

I am a heavy Vim user, so this is easy!

mattnedrich
The MBP is nice b/c of the retina screen. Most laptops have crappy screens. In fact, I would go as far as saying that the MBP has the best screen by a decent margin.
busterarm
I definitely have to agree, but they're getting serious competition on that front now. The Surface Pro is very close in ppi to the rMBP. Vendors are asking for this to compete with Apple.
slededit
PPI isn't everything. The quality of the glass/plastic is also an issue. My DELL 4K monitor certainly has the resolution, but it also looks like I'm staring at a textured surface because they use cheaper acid etched plastic as the anti-glare solution.
serge2k
It's not raw power, although the responsiveness of the OS is a factor. It's the combination of a nice screen, good keyboard, best touchpad (crazy gap to #2), good battery life, and durability. All in a decently small/light package.

edit: Surface book might be okay.

I tried one of those razor laptops last year, it was okay. Not as good as the macbook, but not bad.

weinzierl
>Rumors also suggest the OLED touch panel may be contextual, with buttons that change based on each app that's in use. [1]

Having the most common functions available is something that sounds great in theory. The idea is not even new [2]. We will see if it works in practice.

Personally I think I would like the OLED strip to show my Dock permanently, so that I could switch apps without reaching to the touch pad.

[1] http://www.macrumors.com/roundup/macbook-pro/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard

The OLED strip will probably used

[dead] weinzierl
>Rumors also suggest the OLED touch panel may be contextual, with buttons that change based on each app that's in use. [1]

Having the most common functions available is something that sounds great in theory. The idea is not even new [2]. We will see if it works in practice.

Personally I think I would like the OLED strip to show my Dock permanently, so that I could switch apps without reaching to the touch pad.

[1] http://www.macrumors.com/roundup/macbook-pro/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard

The OLED strip will probably used

blcArmadillo
Have you ever considered mapping 'jk' or 'kj' to Esc? This seems to be a somewhat common mapping from what I've seen looking at others' vimrc.
cygned
I mapped <C-c> to <Esc> in all modes. I find that way better actually.
weinzierl
I used 'jj' for a while but the short delay to display j threw me off. I have Ctrl on Caps Lock so pressing Ctrl-[ is decent but still: I never got used to it.

I met Bram at Vimfest in Berlin recently and asked him if he remaps Esc. He said something along the lines of: "No, I aim for the uppI used 'jj' for a while but the short delay to display j threw me off. I have Ctrl on Caps Lock so pressing Ctrl-[ is decent but still: I never got used to it.

eridius
I map 'jk' to escape, but if I'm ssh'd into a machine without my config, I can also press ^[ instead (since I too map caps lock to control), that's still easier than hitting the physical escape key.
weinzierl
I used 'jj' for a while but the short delay to display j threw me off. I have Ctrl on Caps Lock so pressing Ctrl-[ is decent but still: I never got used to it.

I met Bram at Vimfest in Berlin recently and asked him if he remaps Esc. He said something along the lines of: "No, I aim for the upper left of my keyboard and hope for the best".

tygorius
I too stopped using 'jj' because of the short delay. FWIW I've found ';l' to work well as a replacement. (For a trial period I had them both mapped to <esc> in my vimrc file.) ';l' seems a natural, but distinctive, rolling motion for me and I've never had it conflict with real-world text entry.
miketwo
Karabiner (https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner) allows Caps Lock to act as Escape when tapped, but as Ctrl when held down. Unfortunately it doesn't yet work with Sierra.
sotojuan
A benefit of this approach is that it's at the OS level, so it'll work even when in ssh.
busterarm
I've been using an external keyboard (Realforce 87U at work. A 104 w/ Cherry Blues at home).

Other than the coffee-shop crowd, how many of you would say you're exclusively a laptop-keyboard user? Not a dig, just wondering.

If Apple offered an iPad Pro, running OSX with USB ports (or a thunderbolt port usb hub) for a physical keyboard, I would switch over in a heartbeat.

mattnedrich
I actually use my laptop keyboard almost exclusively (my setup is MBP + external monitor). I have an external keyboard that I use every now and then, but I love the portability of being able to pick up and move.
gamedna
Even though I have a full desk setup with keyboard, mouse, I do spend quite a bit traveling for work. Also, its very convenient to occasionally unplug and move into the living room so I can spend time with my family if i need to work late.
busterarm
I have (and when I need to, carry around) a KBC Poker when I'm traveling and it was worked out well. I don't use the mouse for anything but web browsing honestly and if I'm doing that or working late, I'm not really effectively getting any work done anyway.

I mean, I see the appeal though...it's just the typing experience on that keyboard sucks so much to me it's borderline-unbearable.

wodenokoto
I am so used to my laptop keyboard, that even when I do plugin my real keyboard, I end up using the one on my laptop.
mod
I have an old model-M, and I love it, but I don't use it often. I sit in a recliner quite a lot and that doesn't work.

I did build myself an oversized desk recently, so probably I should get the M back out and have it on the desk for occasional use.

sotojuan
People using laptops to program without external keyboards or many monitors is one of those things that is a lot more common than you think!
gamedna
Back when the iPad was released, I ran a 6 month experiment to see if I could live as a developer using only the iPad and the cloud. My initial findings were quite positive, and the first few weeks were exciting and new.

As time progressed, task switching and copy/paste were obvious shortcomings due to limitations with iOS, but the experience was mostly bearable but not awful.

Towards the end it became unbearable as the escape key was so engrossed with all things unix/linux that i gave up a month early.

If the escape key is actually vanishing, I am completely confused. macOS is a unix derivative and apple has a boatload of developers. Why would they want to alienate us?

dfsegoat
Have a blog / write up which chronicles your experiment? I always wondered if I, or anyone could do this when i first got my ipad.
gamedna
Yes, but it was posted company internal and I do not have the rights to republish. What were you most interested in so I can summarize in a paragraph or two here?
devopsproject
> Why would they want to alienate us?

I would imagine that most of apple's customers are not developers.

1_2__3
It's really hard not to see this as just a continuous and perpetual dumbing-down by Apple of all its products, to the point of uselessness for essentially anyone who isn't an 80 year old grandmother who's never used a computer before and needs to use skype.
snowwrestler
On the other hand, the touch bar might introduce opportunities for more sophisticated and flexible interfaces.
1_2__3
Will it, though? I feel like we're in the part of history right now where - when it comes to computers anyway - we're going with what's cool rather than what works. I'd say in general touchscreens have continued to be an utter failure as a general-purpose input device, and that's why we only see it on toy devices. Anything where what you type matters still uses some kind of mechanical feedback.

Maybe with haptic feedback that'll change, but for now any attempt to move mechanical keys to touch-screens are, for me, a net negative just because of the basic facts of reality.

mod
Toy devices? Are you not exposed to modern mobile devices?

Anyone with a child that has access to a tablet can tell you that touch-input is succeeding.

1_2__3
I call it a toy, you express indignation and then use children as an example.

The way children use toys is not the way adults use tools. Touchscreens have proven great for "consumption" devices like phones, and have proven pretty terrible for most everything else.

I'm not being too hard on them I should say, but anyone who thinks traditional input devices will be replaced in general purpose computing with touchscreens ignores decades of history and basic physical reality.

landryraccoon
How does your hypothesis square with the physical reality that a declining share of users use non smartphones for ANY type of computing activity, and sales of touchscreen only devices exceed sales of keyboard controlled devices by an order of magnitude (with that gap growing every year)?
bbcbasic
I agree. Excuse the short comment I'm typing this on a touchscreen.
snowwrestler
Look at how volume and brightness control is done on a Macbook. They took function keys and repurposed them into crude up and down buttons. To get fine control you have to hold down the Shift and Alt keys. If you want to actually use the "function" part of the function key, you have to hold down the Fn button.

A touch control there could present a more intuitive interface--tap the control you want, then use a touch slider to adjust with great precision.

Another idea I saw in a blog post was to put a scrubber control there during video editing. Currently the trackpad has to serve double duty controlling the features of the application, and controlling the scrubbing of the content.

The function keys are a UI mess. Each serves double or triple duty, and the duties sometimes change with OS releases. For example, the Dashboard key on my Macbook Pro no longer activates the Dashboard.

This is just like the situation on smart phones when they all shipped with physical keyboards. Each tiny button on my Blackberry had at least 2 different functions. As Steve Jobs said, "we solved this problem with a bitmapped screen and a pointing device."

devopsproject
I think you are way off base. The user in question would clearly be using facetime :)
sboselli
What about the up and down arrows? There's only key there in your first image..
snowwrestler
The up and down keys are half-height without a spacer between them. Together they take up the same space as one letter key. That's the way it has been on Macbooks for a while.

The change on that keyboard is that the left and right keys are now full height; they used to be half-height with a half-space above.

meidan
I use VIM. I will not be upgrading to the newest apple products. I think I'll phase them out instead.
eridius
Maybe you should wait until the products are released before judging them.

Also, a VIM user that actually uses the escape key? I don't know how you tolerate that. I bound jk to escape years ago, and in the rare case where I'm ssh'd into a machine that doesn't have my vim config I still find ^[ easier to type than escape (which is probably because I bound caps lock to control so ^[ is easy to type).

wodenokoto
I don't use VIM a lot, mostly when committing stuff in git, so I'm quite naive about it.

How would you get out of insert mode by writing jk? Or, how would you write jk in insert mode without exiting?

eridius
Add the following to your .vimrc:

  if !&insertmode
    inoremap jk <esc>
    snoremap jk <esc>
  endif
(the insertmode bit can probably be dropped, but it's technically correct)

With this mapping, typing "jk" in insert mode acts as if you'd hit escape instead (so it doesn't type the j or the k). To type jk in insert mode without exiting, you either wait a second after hitting the j (once it shows up on screen you're good) before hitting the k, or if you're impatient you hit another key and then hit delete before the k, e.g. "jj<delete>k". The reason this mapping is popular is because "jk" is extremely rare to type in insert mode; you usually only type it if you're typing out the alphabet, or if you're talking about how you map jk to escape.

The only annoyance here is if you type j by itself, you don't actually see the letter show up immediately. This is because Vim is waiting to see if you're going to type a k. If you type nothing, after a second Vim will timeout and decide you're not invoking the jk mapping after all (and will then show the j). Or if you hit anything besides k then you're obviously not triggering the mapping. You can observe this behavior with any other multi-character mapping you might have as well (e.g. anything with <leader> or <localleader>).

meidan
Using the escape key doesn't bother me at all. I'm not sure why. Just feels second nature at this point.
snowwrestler
Apple could easily persist an ESC virtual button in the same spot. Or provide a user setting to do so.
mattnedrich
I think they'll absolutely do this (assuming there isn't a physical ESC key). But, I think the experience would suck for users that are hitting ESC all day (e.g., vim users)
snowwrestler
If I were them, I would have kept the physical ESC and power keys at either end and fit the touch bar in between.

They still could; the part in that picture might not be final. (It probably is though.)

stuaxo
Hm, how long until there are Linux drivers for this ?
taurath
I think they'll just replace the tilde key with the escape key if the photo is a new MBP.

I press escape OFTEN, but tildes rarely. For the most part its to get into consoles in games or other dev functions - I could see myself losing it and not being too sad.

mod
The tilde key is also the ` key. (I have no idea what the name of it is).

That's used in markdown and ES6 pretty commonly.

Losing that key is a problem for me.

cauterized
Backtick. It's also used in bash scripting; and in Slack and presumably some other chat services it's used to delimit quoted code (forcing monospaced output).
taurath
Not as "much" of a problem I'd imagine as losing the escape key (at least for me). Maybe putting it somewhere else?
a-no-n
If there's no hackable non-Retina-like model with user-upgradable to 16 GiB of memory and dual SSDs, the MacBook Pro (13-inch, Mid 2012) MD101LL/A will be the last MBP I buy. Overpriced, soldered-on memory is BS.
stevep001
I ended up with a ThinkPad X1 Carbon gen 2 -- it has a five row physical keyboard, with the top row as a virtual keyboard.

It was constantly registering touches on the top row when I didn't want them. With a laptop, I commonly rest my hand on the keyboard and touch -- but don't depress -- keys.

Today it's only used in a desktop configuration with an external keyboard.

I'm not the only one who felt this way -- see, for example, this Ars review of the gen 3, which said of the gen 2 keyboard:

"...the keyboard shed its top row of function keys, replacing them with a software-controlled touchable strip, and used a peculiar arrangement for buttons including home, insert, backspace, and delete. The result wasn't better; it was awkward."

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/02/thinkpad-x1-carbon-re...

lj3
Lenovo has a bad track record with all things touch. For example, I have a w530 and the trackpad is terrible. Apple, on the other hand, has a history of well engineered touch hardware, especially the touchpad.

Maybe a touch strip will be great or maybe it'll be rubbish, but don't pre-judge the feature based on Lenovo's increasingly shoddy engineering.