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Ask YC: Any of you use Dvorak?

21 points by Xichekolas ↗ HN
I started using a dvorak keyboard about five years ago purely for nerdy fun. I enjoy it personally, but would never try to evangelize it. Anyway, I was just curious if anyone else out there used it and if you knew of any dvorak-friendly editors and such... Emacs is a nightmare in Dvorak...

Edit: A follow-up question if you do use dvorak would be: If you actually have a dvorak-in-hardware keyboard, which one?

38 comments

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slackerIII
Yes, I use it and I really think it has helped my wrists. I don't type much faster than I used to, but it feels much more comfortable. Another good trick is to swap your ctrl and capslock keys.

I don't have any trouble using vi with dvorak. Navigating using hjkl still makes sense.

Xichekolas
Yeah I definitely feel like my wrists move a lot less using Dvorak, so it is more comfortable for long periods for me at least.

I'll have to try the caplocks/ctrl switching.

albertcardona
Works best for me: making the caps be the escape key, and swapping alt and control.

I am a vim user.

Why swap alt and control: so that I can do control+whatever while pushing control with my thumb. No wrist or weird little finger streching to push the caps key.

bct
It took me a while to get used to hjkl with Dvorak, but Nethack did a good job retraining me.

(As a vim user, I've swapped Caps Lock and Esc.)

a-priori
I use Dvorak too... have for about 5 years now, for no reason other than that I like it better.

I also use Emacs just fine, but then again I learned Emacs after Dvorak, so I don't really know how much different Emacs is on QWERTY.

sparkycw
I also use Dvorak, but had to retrain myself on VIM. I originally used QWERTY to learn VIM, then switched to Dvorak because I totally sucked at touch typing on QWERTY. That layout never made sense to me, but Dvorak did and now I'm happy to report I can type along at about 35 WPM. Which to me, is screaming fast!

What's really odd is now I've been able to touch type on QWERTY too! It takes a few seconds for the brain to switch modes, but it'll do it. I'm not as fast as Dvorak, but I can hope on another keyboard and work.

I've used Dvorty Boards in the past, and now use TypeMatrix ZVR-2030 keyboard. On laptops, I switch using software, and just ignore the keyboard.

ken
Sure, for about 15 years. I agree that it's more comfortable, not faster.

Coincidentally, this is about the same length of time I've used Emacs. I don't see what's nightmarish about it. The keys either have English mnemonics (C-b/C-f = back/forward), or are completely arbitrary (C-v = page-down). Its keyboard commands are not at all tied to the Sholes layout, like some editors I could mention.

I think it's less nightmarish than, say, being a native Swedish or Japanese speaker and trying to figure out what C-b and C-f mean. But then, I've found that the way keyboard shortcuts are encoded in one's brain differs greatly between people. Maybe visual learners find hjkl more natural, and auditory learners find bfpn more natural.

Hexstream
"The keys either have English mnemonics (C-b/C-f = back/forward), or are completely arbitrary (C-v = page-down)."

Bad example for a completely arbitrary key... v looks like a down arrow. Hence, page down.

ken
Ah, you must be one of those visual-learner types!
Hexstream
The funny thing is that I always thought (just like you) that C-v was an arbitrarily assigned key before you mentionned it. I guess we could call this "contradiction intuition" or something.
divia
I use it too, for about 10 years now. I agree with what everyone else is saying--it may not be faster, but it is definitely more comfortable. I use emacs, and I've never found the commands to be a problem.
Hexstream
I use Dvorak exclusively. I've started using it right when I started touchtyping (I'm 21, I started touchtyping something like a year and a half ago. Previously I was a "fast" hunt-and-pecker, except I didn't really hunt at all).

I got frustrated with touchtyping Qwerty very quickly because... well, it just felt dumb when I tried typing "street" or "states". Why should two such common nouns with common letters be so awfully awkward to type?! And there's the seemingly random arrangement of keys, which incidentally is ACTUALLY random...

Anyway, I found out about Dvorak, read about it, started using it and never looked back ever since.

You say you started using a Dvorak keyboard... do you mean a Dvorak keyboard layout?... Typing Dvorak on a Qwerty keyboard is not a problem at all. In fact, I'd say it's beneficial. When I started touchtyping Qwerty, I kept looking down at the keys out of habit and lack of confidence, and that impeded my speed and learning. Whereas when I started touchtyping Dvorak, I couldn't "cheat" by looking at the keys anymore. For the first 2 days, I printed the Dvorak layout on a sheet of paper that I put beside my keyboard, and I'd refer to that only when I didn't know a key. After that, I scrapped the paper and was typing very slow but autonomously. My habit of looking at the keyboard died a quick death because my keyboard had Qwerty printed on it and thus was useless!

I don't see why you say Emacs is a nightmare in Dvorak, because the key combinations are based on mnemonics, not physical key location. Ever tried Dvorak in vi? Now THAT is a problem.

I bought a TypeMatrix 2030 and with some remappings, it's a charm to use Emacs with it. In particular, I can press CTRL with my left thumb, so if for example I have to type C-x C-f (qwerty equivalent: C-b C-y), I don't have to switch between the right and left CTRL keys, I just press and hold CTRL and then type x and f. By the way, I bought a Qwerty-labelled version so I wouldn't be tempted to start looking at the keys again :) If they had a blank version I would have bought that.

You ask for a Dvorak-friendly editor, but I think you should be looking for a keyboard-layout-agnostic editor. In my experience, Emacs is one such editor.

grimoire
"Previously I was a "fast" hunt-and-pecker, except I didn't really hunt at all"

So, does that make you a pecker?

-- sorry, couldn't help myself.

Hexstream
We learn something new every day... even if it's just a silly slang term ;P
kul
i do. felt tingling in wrists so decided to switch in may. PC also uses it. It wrecked my brain for a while. i use it with the kinesis keyboard.
daniel-cussen
Hells yeah, switched a few weeks ago. It's awesome.
psb
I've used it for the last 5 years or so. I used to have to sleep with the wrist braces - I can't be certain that dvorak has made a big difference but it seems to help
robmnl
Using it, for two years, with vim. First two weeks were hard.
jmilton
aoeuidhtns! I've used Dvorak for at least six years now. Love it.

For anyone interested in learning, I found that the best sites were: http://www.gigliwood.com/abcd/ http://dvorak.nl/learn.plp and the program KP Typing Tutor (great dvorak exercises). interesting comparison tool: http://www.siteuri.ro/dvorak/

How about the awesomeness of the dvorak home row? 3269 Scrabble words (OSPD) can be typed on the home row, including nine 15-letter words (such as tendentiousness) 206 for asdfkhjkl. Longest: halakhahs and haggadahs

_____ Estimated finger travel distance (horizontal) for all of the above text QWERTY: 15.3m Dvorak: 10.5m

tokipin
Dvorak: been using it for a few years. i switched to it cold turkey. one thing that can screw you up is touching qwerty after switching, something you don't really need to do. dvorak is implemented as a language and comes standard in most OS's, so the excuse that "it will be difficult when using someone else's computer" is a poor one. some people can probably learn to use both layouts without too much trouble... i'm not one of those people, and i would advise against trying to use both, as learning dvorak will be much more difficult

qwerty is simply atrocious. the semicolon key says it all. who the fuck puts a semicolon key on the home row? i've heard various explanations for the retarded layout but i think it's just retardation. even the story of how it was to balance the hammers for typewriters to minimize collision seems retarded since the manufacturers could have switched around the letters on the hammers themselves

something that people miss is that dvorak is about comfort, not speed. sure, someone who is good at typing will probably be substantially faster on dvorak then on qwerty, but for me at least it's all about comfort. though i do type quite a bit faster than i did on qwerty

re: Vi, it wasn't hard switching at all. one thing i learned to do was use 'ce' (replace to end of word) rather than 'cw' (replace word) since c and w are on the same finger in dvorak

specifically i use programmer dvorak http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/ which leaves the basic dvorak alphabet unchanged but switches around the symbols. instead of `1234567890-= the top row is $&[{}(=* )+]!#. the numbers are shifted

i took things a step further and started using a program called AutoHotkey: http://www.autohotkey.com/ i have LAlt + C mapped to Esc, LAlt + H to Backspace, LAlt + T to Enter, Caps and Enter to Ctrl, and RAlt to Caps. these are global, not just for Vim

Ergonomic Keyboard: i use a microsoft ergonomic: http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Natural-Ergo-Keyboard-4000/d... i'm surprised these aren't much more popular. it's probably because of patents or something, or people don't realize how much better they are. they are as much an improvement over regular keyboards as dvorak is over qwerty. dvorak + ergonomic keyboard will get you FAR in terms of comfort

i also use a wacom tablet instead of a mouse. i've never had any wrist pain or anything with this setup. i'm anal about comfort for the same reason i use Vim rather than a silly IDE. i figure if i'm going to be typing and using a computer so much, generally hours a day for the rest of my life, then the tools i use are extremely important and it's worth it to invest in the best ones

lvecsey
Supposedly you're not supposed to switch to dvorak too quickly, like within a 48 hour period like I did. It kind of scrambles your brain a bit, and I lost my ability to qwerty for a moment there. With time I started typing quicker in both dvorak, and qwerty again.

Can you talk a bit more about using the tablet as a mouse? I have a multi-monitor set up now and just noticed theres a spot on my desk for a tablet. I suppose it would have to be put into relative mode, not absolute.

tokipin
when i used two monitors (my expensive graphics card died T_T) i kept absolute positioning, which is one of the things i like about tablets. you don't need to know where the cursor is, you just move the pen where you want the cursor to be and it's there, so it's more direct than a mouse. it also feels more 'connective' in general. when using scrollbars for example it feels like you're "grabbing" them rather than just interacting with them. or at least it does to me

with the wacom software you can map multiple monitors to different sections of the tablet, so i mapped a large portion of the tablet to my work monitor and a smaller portion to the second. something like:

   _______________
  |               |
  |               |
  |               |  <-- monitor 1
  |               |
  |_______________|______
                  |      |  <-- monitor 2
                  |______|
actually i don't remember if i used the wacom software to map or if it was something in the desktop settings. in any case it's possible. and of course, relative positioning works fine as well

i'm sure everyone is intimately familiar with the wrist pain from mice usage. it doesn't happen with pens because your wrists aren't contorted like they are with mice. pens are more flexible since the only thing that matters is where the point is, not where the whole unit is. the hand/arm/wrist posture when using a pen is more natural than the posture you have to assume when using a mouse (notice you have to actually twist your arm thingie to use a mouse)

Xichekolas
I have that exact keyboard myself. Say what you want about Microsoft, but their mice and keyboards are awesome.

I don't usually find the symbols to be a problem, but I'm tempted to try that top row switch just to avoid hitting shift so much.

tokipin
yep. when i used mice i only used a particular microsoft model

if you do decide to try the unshifted symbol layout, be careful with desires to modify it. for example, in standard layouts the ( and ) keys are together, so when typing a function call it's sort of a habit to hit shift and quickly tap them:

fncall()

it's nice and quick to type, so when looking at the programmer dvorak layout you might be tempted to rearrange them just a little bit so that you can keep doing that. the issue is that the goal of dvorak is comfort over a statistical amount of typing, and by making a modification like that you may be sacrificing overall comfort for a tiny burst potential

i mention this because i've seen people make changes like that. the layout is very well-designed. caps lock for example shifts the numbers so it's easier to type long numbers, and it also locks the - into a _, which is desirable when typing constants (MY_CONSTANT)

i actually don't use the layout file on that page because it seems to be designed for (human) languages with many characters, so it has some dead keys and was making some keys such as ` hard to type. i just redid the layout with MS Keyboard Layout Creator http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=8BE...

mattmaroon
I switched from a Microsoft Ergo to a Logitech DiNovo Edge. The wrist feel isnt as comfortable, of course, but the keys are orgasmic.
mightybyte
Yes, I've been using Dvorak exclusively for a year or two. Vim was annoying at first, but it's really not too bad. Even if you don't remap the keys the new locations of hjkl make reasonable sense.

My question for you Dvorak users is how easily can you switch back and forth between it and qwerty? I can do it without much trouble, but I know another guy who has a very hard time switching. I'm curious what the general trend is.

rw
I learned Dvorak in high school, used it for about three months. Ultimately, I went back to qwerty because I, too, have an incredibly hard time switching between the two. I wasn't about to restrict myself to only using Dvorak-enabled computers.
Xichekolas
I can switch back and forth quite easily. I use dvorak the vast majority of the time, but when I play games I use qwerty because remapping all the hotkeys just takes too long. (And it's hard to hit the right key when you glance down and see the wrong letter in a game.)

Since most online games require a lot of chatting, I have lots of practice actually typing real stuff in both fairly quickly.

nostrademons
I had a tough time initially. I basically lost the ability to type qwerty without looking at the keys for about 6 months. Then I started gaining it back on an OS-by-OS basis: I was conditioned so that if I was looking at a Gnome desktop (school computer labs) I'd type Qwerty, yet on a WinXP desktop I'd type Dvorak. Then it went to app-by-app: I'd type Dvorak on Word and AIM, but Qwerty on Eclipse and a few other Linux apps. And then I became fluent in both keyboard layout and can can basically touch type on either.

Still need to switch into Qwerty for some games, though, because their keybindings don't make any sense. It's also really annoying on typing tests that have you type "hjkl" over and over again. vi was never a problem, because I learned the keybindings on Dvorak first, though I might have trouble if I sat down at a Qwerty terminal with it.

a-priori
As I said in another post, I've been using Dvorak for about five years. I actually haven't tried using QWERTY in about two years... so let's see how I do. (switches)

Well... this feels a bit awkward (especially "awkward", ironically, which is mostly on one hand), but I can type mostly fine. I find punctuation to be the biggest problem, followed the fact that my left hand feels overworked (is that normal?). I can type at about half my normal pace, but it's getting better. In fact, after typing this paragraph, I think I'm most the way back to full speed.

All in all, I'd say that switching isn't a big issue, especially if you just need to key in a few small things. This is completely anecdotal, mind you.

yters
I find it alot more comfortable. I can also type a bit faster. After years of QWERTY, I measured my speed right before I switched and I could hit 78 wpm. Now, after about 2 years of Dvorak I can hit 90 wpm.
mdaconta
I have been using the Dvorak keyboard since around 1995 ... here is a short guide I right on the switch on an old mac using a dot-matrix printer! :)

On editors, most on Windows and Mac are fine because the keyboard mappings are switched at the OS level. So, I don't think it's a problem. Sometimes key-binds in apps are not matched but not often.

I do not use a dvorak-in-hardware keyboard. I just don't look at the keys.

Best wishes,

- Mike

richardw
I use the "programmer dvorak" layout. Nicer for {} etc etc, initially scary for numbers but you get used to it. All dvorak sucks for ctrl-c/v/x.
MikeW
I switched to dvorak for a few weeks a few summers ago. Initially typing every single word was insanely frustrating, and it didn't get much better for me.

I've been using QWERTY for 18 years and I continue to stick with it simply because it's familiar and I'm surrounded by machines all day every day that don't allow me to change the keyboard layout. Alternating between keyboard layouts several times every day is just not worth the frustration for me.

BrandonM
DVORAK is remarkably easy to learn, all things considered. I just started today after checking out jmilton's links, and while the going is a bit slow, it's not as bad as I expected. I'm not sure yet if it will really be beneficial, but I figure I'll give it a shot for two reasons:

1. I like to challenge myself. I'm currently learning to play Guitar Hero left-handed, and it's been interesting. This is along those same lines, but it might actually benefit me.

2. It will be fun to mess with my friends when they try to use my computer.

In my limited usage so far, yes, the typing is slow. It's really frustrating that I can no longer type as fast as I can think. The hardest thing, however, seems to be re-learning applications' keyboard shortcuts. If Firefox and GMail is hard, what's vim going to be like?

(This message was typed using DVORAK.)

BrandonM
After some more research, I think Colemak (http://colemak.com/) is going to be a better alternative. The bottom row stays the nearly the same, which means that a lot of the common application shortcut keys remain the same. It's also based on more modern, computer-assisted research into English word frequencies. One cool idea it uses is to change Caps Lock to Backspace.

I'm still worried about vim, though. One nice side effect of my planned switch to Colemak is that I now have a legitimate reason to put off learning Emacs. After my switch to Colemak is complete, I'll try to tackle SLIME.