Ask HN: First tiny freelance job questions
I'm a freshman in college and have agreed (informally) to help a local small business convert a large excel file into a format their new inventory software understands. I'm meeting with them in a week to determine whether their request is feasible, and then discussing terms of engagement if it is. We've discussed compensation and I've said I will charge a fee for the consultation and then some additional rate if there is any other work that can be done.
After this point, though, I'm lost. I don't know what to charge, how to invoice, or what kind of contract I need to write up. There is lots of info about this around the Internet, but it seems to be aimed at more established developers doing larger projects in higher cost of living areas. If I walk in with a 10 page contract asking for $300/hour they'll probably politely decline.
That in mind, does anyone have any advice on how to proceed?
29 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 71.9 ms ] threadYou have two options imo (probaby...ianal,...), give a contract that has rate on it and then your timesheet, or just contract and invoice them after.
You can do a simple contract off google.
Just do 1 Job at a time imo
This gives you time to investigate the effort involved in the work. The deliverable is a short document outlining what the scope of your solution is and ideally how much it will cost (for small projects clients generally prefer a fixed price). Pick a number that you think you would be happy doing the work for and you think the client will be willing to pay- this could be based on estimated time x rate or simply a number you are comfortable with.
If this is agreed then you can move forward with doing the actual work.
If you wouldn't mind, it would be nice to get a real-world example.
Short https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6821374/Independent_Cont...
Be sure you understand everything in whatever contract you sign, and consult with a lawyer if you're unsure of anything.
Made my life so much easier..
I would be fair and honest when you do the consultation - in terms of what you charge and in terms of the feasibility part. Without more info, I think an email can be enough at this point just confirming details in writing, including the consultation fee and anything else as this gig sounds quite informal right now. Others may disagree and recommend an LLC or some long contract as there is risk involved.
Only after the consultation can you figure out how to structure a contract. Based on what type of effort and time frame is needed. Whether to go with a total project fee or charge hourly and you will get a better feel for how this client does things.
An email might go like this:
"Hi...,
Follow up to our conversation...Consultation to get your new software compatible...should be 1-2 hours on site...The flat fee is $200. Please make the check payable to Freshman Paidsworder...I am available Wednesday and Friday next week to come out there...Please let me know if this works for you and what day/time is convenient..."
Keep in mind, how do you think this small local business handles other contracts (eg HVAC repair job), do they have a bookkeeper or are you working with the owner directly?
If this type of work is something you would like to keep doing, try to make it positive/easy for you (be yourself) and make it positive for this client (word of mouth/reference/right thing to do).
Good Luck, Congrats.
P.S. $300/hour is not that crazy if it is one hour of work total ;)
If someone were to give me advice before I started at a young age I'd have wanted them to tell me to keep my expectations low and treat it as a learning experience and to derive as much enjoyment from it as possible.
I have to integrate our booking system with it, sending everything via the REST API. Its got loads of restrictions (only send 1000 records per file and such like) that make it really slow. It takes around 1 week to do a similar task via salesforce as a day long task doing Django to Django.
A lot of the functionality need to be done over their web interface - so again slow. Mass deleting records again has limits of 250 per delete.
I am sure an expert in Salesforce would be able to do things more efficiently than me, but its unpleasant enough to work with, that I don't especially want to become one.
They would probably agree to a fixed fee more easily than a higher hourly rate. There is some risk here if you're not confident how long this will take.
Figure out what your target hourly rate should be based on what you want to make or feels fair. Then setup a fixed fee price that works for you.
I would propose three phases.
A. Initial meeting, they provide a small sample of their existing file (a few lines) along with the same data in another excel file manually converted to the format their new software requires along with the full excel file they want to convert. Also ask for rules/requirements, special cases for the conversion.
B. Setup a sample 50 to 100 lines as an initial test, that you will convert and provide them as a test to verify the conversion is working properly.
C. Once they ok part B, convert the entire document.
So maybe part A: $50, part B: $50, part C: $150.
Prepare a contract ahead of time with the Phases and amounts included so they can sign off on it at your meeting. A simple one or two page contract should work. You can probably use the short version of the contract eschutte2 posted. Just replace the hourly rate section with a fixed fee section.
I would invoice them $250 payable by check when you deliver the final excel file(note this in the contract). Companies usually don't like writing multiple checks for small amounts.
If you do part A and part B and the conversion isn't working out, invoice them $100.
Let them know that you will provide support if there are issues with the conversion at no additional cost if it's an issue outlined in their original rules/requirements for the conversion. If it's a new rule/requirement you can provide that for an additional fee.
They will probably ask you for a W-9 tax form for their accounting department so they can send you a 1099 for taxes, required if they pay you $600+ for the year. You'll probably be operating as a sole proprietorship which is ok, I'd recommend getting an EIN (free online IRS) so you can use that instead of your social on the W-9. You could prepare this ahead of time or send with your first invoice.
I would include a clause in the contract that the deliverable is the converted excel file, the scope of work is converting the excel file and that you retain the exclusive rights to code developed to make the conversion.
Google convert excel for 'name of their inventory software' if it's a popular search/topic. You might be able to setup an online conversion tool that you could charge companies a one time fee for converting their file online. Might be a fun project for you and a potential money maker.
Good luck with your first freelance project.
$300/hour is way way way too much, even for a professional developer. You have no experience or formal education as a freshman, your rate should be max $50/hour.
You don't need any contracts, just get half of the money up front and if they screw you over, well at least you got that. When you give them the quote for your work, have each party sign the quote - that's your contract.
I recommend that you set market rate as your base (target) rate. Ask around what the market rate is in your area, but it is likely more than $50/hour for short gigs like this. However offer them a significant discount, for example 50%, for the first X0 hours - and say that you offer it because this is your first project and it's win win for both parties, but you don't want to work with that rate forever.
If the project grows in importance, and you get a lot more work from them, it is easier to negotiate new hourly price, when they don't expect that your standard rate is the discounted rate.
The main thing to remember is that if the total value is over $600 and you're reporting the income, the company will likely ask for a W-9 from you and issue a 1099 at the end of the year. Then, you will be charged the 15% self-employment tax on top of federal and state taxes. A lot of beginning freelancers don't figure this into their rates, and they end up with a much bigger tax bill at the end of the year than anticipated.
I would recommend charging hourly, $50-75/hr is likely reasonable in your area, but providing the business an estimate of the range of hours-- say 10-15, or 20-25, etc so at least they know ballpark in the beginning what to expect. If you check in with them midway and say "hey this is ending up to be a lot more complicated, just so you know it will take more hours" then they'll appreciate it and be more likely to pay you quicker with no quibbles or "surprises."
Some people want a website built or fixed up or apps - can anyone offer some simple resources/advice to go about doing that?
salary 100k
self employement tax + 8k ~ 108k
health insurance + 16k ~ 124k
401k match + 3k ~ 127k
3 weeks of vacation and 10 holidays is 47 weeks of work.
So ~$2700 per week which is $67.5 per hour
(this doesn't include disability/unemployment/life insurance)
On the other hand, it might be worth considering a trade for labor for whatever it is they sell. When I go this route, I usually end up getting way more in trade than I would have in cash. But again, this is only if they're selling something that you may want.
1. No matter how you price your services, what terms you offer in your contract, or how competent you are, there's a significant chance that the potential client will decline.
They will decline because they are just window shopping. They will decline because someone cheaper comes along. They will decline because it turns out to appear not to be worth the money. They will decline because someone more expensive comes along...or the owner's nephew, or someone who is simply a better fit. They will decline because a customer canceled an order, the bank loan didn't come through, a key employee quit, a new hire was made, or your shoes were the wrong color.
2. It's hard to do at first, but there's no point in investing too much in any one proposal. 'Just' listen to the potential client, make a decision on rate and terms and present it.
3. When dealing with amateurs -- by which I mean people who don't frequently contract for the sort of work you do -- you will often be competing with free. You will often be up against other similarly unrealistic expectations.
4. When dealing with non-amateurs it's often a good idea to consider what happened to the person who did the sort of thing you're doing for them previously.
Specific advice to your situation:
It is not unlikely that the company had the option to pay the inventory software vendor to convert their data over, or that the vendor could provide a list of qualified consultants to do the conversion. And that the company chose not to pursue that route.
If this was an advertisement to students rather than something that came through your social graph via 'warm' and 'organic' relations, it is likely that the company is seeking to get the work done on the cheap. Because that's frequently the motivation for hiring students to do 'professional' type work. Unfortunately.
Finally, keep in mind that it is highly unlikely that this is the last or best or most important piece of work that will come to you in your career. The most important thing, whether successful or not is to learn a bit about business, a bit about human nature, and to improve your 'spidey sense'.
Good luck.
Suggest reading Alan Weiss, still the gold standard on building a consulting practice > http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/260218.Million_Dollar_Con...