The worst part of the diamond industry is how much space is wasted here in New York for diamond stores. Around Midtown there are whole blocks of sketchy diamond stores. No way all are profitable.
Interesting. Moissanite (silicon carbide) has a number of similar characteristics to diamond. So I decided to see whether, like diamond, its use as a high-temperature semiconductor had been investigated. Turns out the answer is yes, specifically by Toyota for its hybrid cars' power control units (PCUs):
Great advice. Possibly coming from someone who doesn't have a girlfriend. :) try to give such a stone to a girl and see how amused she is gonna be. You are just gonna sound "cheap". Diamonds are a status, not a beautiful stone.
edit: I see many downvotes. Guys, seriously, was it for me, I would buy nothing. It's just how this world works. You can express your anger by downvoting me, I'll be fine, but please don't fall into this belief that diamonds are just a stone. They are unfortunately just a status, like brands...
If your girlfriend dumps you because you're not spending $5,000 on a diamond ($5,000 that could be invested for your future house, baby, etc) then you should probably celebrate.
Yes, this discussion reappears every time diamonds are mentioned on HN. Pretty brilliant marketing campaign by De Beers, though, that somebody will think you're "cheap" if you don't buy a big enough diamond that somebody dug out of the ground.
In the end it's just a conversation between people who say, "You can't just ignore these social conventions" and people who say "these social conventions are stupid, find someone who isn't so shallow."
If you think everyone falls into one camp or the other, however, then you have a lot to learn.
Yea, I know what you mean, but times are changing. Diamonds will eventually be the Fox, or Mink coat. It's not quite there yet though.
There are some enlightened people out there, and then there's the Kardashian. You don't want a Kardashian. They have an expiration date. If you think I'm being sexist; I mean Rob. Yes, the boy who has the personal chef, and cries about his weight. (I like the kid, but I knew I would get blowback. So covered my statement with an easy target.)
I am a woman in a happy, long term relationship. I have issues with your assumption about "girls". I told my boyfriend not to give me a diamond because every aspect of what diamond actually embodies goes against my value.
There are certainly women who adore diamonds, but not every woman does.
Will you please speak to my GF! I am afraid we have different values and any time the ring conversation comes up, it ends in an argument. The last argument ended in her telling me that we shouldn't talk about it anymore.
Then you have an issue on the values you have, and willing to spend the rest of your life together with someone that doesn't share those same values.
You should really have an open conversation about that and weight the implications of it. It can slowly build up to an unavoidable obstacle for the relationship.
If it's great advice from your perspective as a man then surely it's also great advice from the perspective of any woman who thinks the same way you do. Women have as much interest in the ethics of the things that they wear and the value (which isn't just the price) of things that their partner buys as any man does.
Plus, to be honest, I imagine if you gave a woman the choice between an engagement ring that cost $6000 and a much cheaper engagement ring that their boyfriend spent 6 months finding, most would choose the ring that their boyfriend spent time thinking about and choosing. Women have as much money as men do for buying status symbols; when it comes to an engagement ring they're looking for something that mere money can't buy.
Hope you don't mind I ride off the bottom comment ;)
I came here to post that the article misses the point!
As you said, diamond rings are about the status.
They are a signal, first and foremost.
It's like expensive cars and (dare I say) Apple products:
the wastefulness is an indicator of wealth, just like the peacock's massive tail is wasteful: it is expensive to grow and detrimental to its ability to escape predators.
So, as dimino suggested, I would spend the same amount...
I wasen't going to even nibble at the bait, but I imagine most people who are on this site, see through the ridiculousness of a real diamond, on so many levels.
After we learned about Blood Diamonds, De Beer's manupilation with supply, fake diamonds that fool the experts, etc.
We are all going to raise an eyebrow, when he says, "I wanted 5 carat one?". Now--on many levels?
Similar arguments can be made about almost any fashion item. People don't buy fashion due to it's great quality, and most of the time not even due to good design, but mostly just to show off.
The argument about resale value is used to justify the purchase. The person buying the ring doesn't seriously consider it an investment, but it makes it less painful to think of it as one.
The only special thing about diamonds in particular is that - as opposed to other fashion items - the market for diamonds has been[0] literally created out of thin air by a single company, thanks to many decades of marketing efforts.
Maybe you just surround yourself with superficial people? I have a hard time believing people passionate about fashion don't have a nuanced appreciation for the aesthetic aspect of it.
Edit: Also wouldn't calling a fashion item ostentatious or low quality be a critique of bad fashion?
After reading about Moissanite I went out and got a nice custom diamond ring. I've seen it in person and sometimes you CAN tell, because of the 'fire' its way more rainbowy than diamond, diamonds are 'whiter' looking.
I'm not even opposed to CZ if it looks pretty, but I wanted to give her a diamond and gold, and anything else would have felt like a substitution.
This is what annoys me. The geek and idealist in me doesn't want to give her a diamond because it's not that valuable.
Yet, I don't want to be cheap. I don't want her to feel like I don't value her enough.
Yellow sapphire is non traditional and very beautiful. If I had opted for something other than a diamond, I would have chosen something that was very different but still beautiful. My boo desperately wants an opal ring, but unfortunately opal is too soft for daily wear and tear like that, so we would have ended up replacing the stone many times over the lifespan of the ring.
Now, moissanite or CZ for fun jewellery, watches, earrings etc DOES seem like a perfect time to use those diamond-like stones!
Sort of seriously I'm surprised you can't encapsulate the opal in an epoxy or something (CVD cover it or something). Perhaps not at home, but seems like we should have the tech to do that.
But the ring would cost more than the gold contents it contains. And i also stand by the opinion that gold is inherently valueless, and is only valued as a rarity/status symbol.
A diamond purchase is a type of proof-of-burn. It's a way to display how much you value the person by being willing to sacrifice a large part of your savings for them. It's not really about the stone itself, it's about the cost.
Which in turn isn't even just about the (monetary) cost: the diamond ring is part of a collection of social rituals intended to increase the (social & psychological) cost of exit from marriage.
Then give a donation receipt for a charity that you both support for the cost of the diamond instead. At least that way the sacrificed money will support something you both believe in rather than the diamond industry.
I think the main issue here is not to burn a huge chunk of money when starting a new life together, especially when the amount spent is usually a lot more than they can really afford.
And it's a social ranking mechanism. You've attracted a mate that is richer, more capable provider, therefore you are more capable and rank higher in your groups social ranking.
Many cultures you give a valuable gift to the spouse, to ensure they won't be totally dependent - they have their own wealth. Until you can prove you can support a spouse, you can't marry.
That would make more sense today if it were possible to sell a diamond for anywhere near the purchase price.
Lying is a great way to start a relationship. Then when she goes to get the ring insured or tries to add it to your homeowners or renters insurance and the appraisal comes back you can have the informed, rational discussion of your thought process with no fall out. Just in case someone wants to avoid that approach, it might be helpful to have some specific arguments. I think it is good to point out what you could use the money for instead. If you show that the money could be used to strengthen your relationship over the long term, that should show deep concern and love for your partner.
> > From reading this, just show it to her. It says people can't spot the difference.
> Lying is a great way to start a relationship.
It sounded to me like the advice was "show her the fake diamond, so that she can see that it's visually indistinguishable from a real one" rather than "present her the fake diamond as a real one".
I think the point is that when she wears it around her friends, she can omit the fact that it's moissanite and her friends will think that it's a big, brilliant diamond.
Way back, a friend of mine in High School wanted to give his girlfriend a ring just randomly (for no occasion), so he bought a cheap one, like $10. So he's going to wrap it as a gift at home, and he needs a box. Asks his big sister, and he gets an unused proper ring box from a local jewellery store. Wraps gift, puts in girlfriend's mailbox as cute surprise, and when she opens it of course it's too small. So girlfriend takes box and ring to the jewellery store named on the box, and asks to swap it for one that fits. And the shop assistant doesn't spot it's a $10 ring, so girlfriend gets a nice silver/zirconium ring that fits, costing like $150. The day after she tells boyfriend she had to go to the store and swap it. After a few minutes he realises what's happened, but of course keeps very quiet to her about the true story, and enjoys his status as the super romantic/affectionate guy.
If you're old enough to be thinking about marrying your girlfriend, your girlfriend has probably decided already what she thinks about diamonds and spending money on pretty but useless things. And if you've been dating her long enough to think about marrying her, then you should probably have a pretty good guess about how she thinks about it.
First and foremost, it's a proof of social status between her and her peers, so you need to know who her friends are. But there are so many factors to weigh in. Someone I know got a sapphire ring to propose to his girlfriend, and she commented about how she was glad that he remembered that she hated diamonds. A couple I know have silver wedding bands which were made by an artist that they both know. The rings are unique and special—and this is important—in a way that they can brag about. They don't brag about it, but they could, if they were that kind of people.
However, if you are unable to express your concerns about diamonds without worrying that she'll think you love her less, then you are NOT ready to propose. Consider premarital counseling—which is something you do to get ready for marriage, not something you do because you have problems.
There's a catch-22 here: you can't raise the topic of diamonds without her understanding you are thinking about marriage. And even if you've been together for years, it may just not have come up. And people are unpredictable: she may just have an irrational dream of a diamond ring. So I think the worry is justified and not necessarily a sign of insufficient marriage-maturity. But that doesn't change the advice: the only solution is talking about it.
A complete surprise proposal is a bad idea, IMO. We're talking about a (nominally) lifelong decision. In a relationship with good communication, the proposal should be a formality, because marriage has been explicitly discussed, probably many times, over the course of the relationship. It can and should still be a romantic moment and even a bit of a surprise.
It's only a catch-22 if you can't let her know you are thinking about marriage before you propose. Just saying that out loud it sounds like such a ridiculous idea: I might want to marry her, but I can't let her know that I'm thinking about it.
You say it's not a sign of a lack of maturity, but it sounds exactly like a lack of maturity to me (an inability to communicate honestly with someone who you want to spend the rest of your life with about really basic stuff).
Use the difference in price on a down payment on a home/apartment or open a college savings account for your kids. Tell the truth, you want to build a life together and are thinking about the long term financial and personal consequences of this decision. I bought a ruby for my wife for this exact reason. I also wanted to show our community that we rejected diamonds as a tradition. I think the more we discuss this issue the more likely social conventions will change so future couples won't have to have a discussion.
This doesn't work. I have tried it. She (my GF) just argues with me about any purchase I try to make that is around the ballpark of what she is expecting me to pay for a ring.
e.g.
Her: So you want a new MacBook Pro, but you can't afford a $3000 engagement ring?
tell her you'd rather set the $3k on fire - as in, real fire, with smoke and all - while she watches than buy a diamond ring. be prepared to follow through.
The trick here is to use good-quailty counterfeits, and then afterwards ask her if she feels the same way about the ring. If so, buy it. If not, spend the money on something else.
I don't agree with people that say just because she wants the diamond ring, it means the relationship is a bad relationship. It's not irrational to feel social pressure, and feel real pain by not conforming to social norms. At the end of the day if she is happier, that is where she drives economic utility. Just keep at the dialogue, and try to communicate how spending money on something you consider to be unnecessary and imprudent actually harms you emotionally. Hopefully, you will be able to have a nice dialogue and compromise so that you both feel respect from the other person.
If you can afford a $3k MBP, you can afford a diamond ring. And her diamond ring will be worn forever, your shiny new laptop will be on Craigslist in 5 years.
Kid is a pretty solid long time investment(¹), which makes wife a cofounder. Good cofounder won't ask to burn some money to celebrate foundation of the company:).
(¹) of course some children are still a net loss, but other investments fail too so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Getting married is probably something worth getting emotional about. Strangers on the internet having made different decisions (or even thinking badly about my decisions) probably isn't.
Your assertion was "if you can afford a $3k MVP you can afford a $3k ring." That the MVP shows a financial return speaks directly to affordability. The parent is not making a claim that financial return is the only thing relevant to decision making.
If this is their first marriage, it has something like a 70% of being worn until death. The Macbook has a >90% chance of being relegated to the trash heap in less than 10 years.
A diamond ring loses a large amount of its value when you purchase it, because engagement rings don't really ever sell for what they bought them for. If he uses that MBP for work, it is a return on the investment as it allows him to earn income with it, eventually (hopefully) more than what he spent on it.
The diamond just sits on her finger for bragging rights.
A US marriage is phenomenally expensive. If you want to send 50c a day to Africa, and you can't afford it, it's probably better to cut back on dressed chairs at the wedding than to tell your future wife who wants a ring that she's not going to get one.
My wife-to-be and I agreed to skip 'engagement' and the money we would have paid for a ring covered the entire cost of our wedding and an all-friends garden-party.
To this day, no-one has asked my wife why she only has a [tungsten] wedding ring and no engagement ring. So that's 50c per day saved for better causes. And we have lots of good memories from the party.
Nothing in my comment is saying that buying an expensive ring will save a marriage.
I'm only saying that if your marriage lasts for 10 years, which about 66% of them do, it's weird to complain about the cost of a ring when there will be very many more expensive and equally bullshit things to spend or not spend on.
That paper doesn't attempt to make a causal link. It's possible that being broke during the courtship process (when the ring is purchased) is what leads to a lasting marriage. I also can't find any discussion of the cost of the ring to the cost that could have been afforded. Is there a comparable outcome from someone who could easily afford a $10k ring but instead spends $1k vs someone who can only barely afford the $1k ring in the first place?
Apparently couples spend on average $4k on a wedding ring and from moissanite.net I see the most expensive ring costing $2,575. If that's too "low" then keep buying necklaces, ankle bracelets and belly button rings until it adds up to $4k.
Ask her to read this article, and the Atlantic one it links to. My now-wife couldn't stomach the idea of wearing a diamond after learning about the industry. She went with a sapphire from a reputable company instead.
Other tip, her and I went ring shopping together, which really helped alleviate the pressure of trying to pick out something she'd enjoy wearing for many decades. She was still pleasantly surprised by the prosposal a couple months later, although she obviously knew it was in the cards at some point!
Yeah we did a Sapphire as well, it's crazy what colors you can get. I asked her to marry me without a ring, and then we designed the ring together. Altogether a much less stressful experience and the surprise was still there.
Tell her that she has a choice, she can get an expensive ring that looks the same as that less expensive ring. Except that with the less expensive ring you're going to spend 3 weeks in Asia road tripping from Thailand to the Philippine in paradisiac places.
I convinced mine, but, obviously, YMMV. I was lucky in that she's divorced, so has already gone through with that, and hate hate hated the idea of debt.
We had already had conversations about getting married, that sort of thing, so when it came to the ring it was easy to bring it up. I mentioned I was a little reluctant to go with a diamond; I said I was -willing-, but due to the intentional supply limit and the ensuing price hike, it would necessarily be small, as I was not willing to go into debt for it (which she was already in agreement we should never do; beware if your significant other has no issues with going into debt). Had she considered alternatives, such as moissanite?
I showed her some images and videos of moissanite, compared price, showed it was nearly as hard -and- glittered more (and that I could get her a 2+ carat stone for what ~.5 carat diamond of comparable color and clarity would cost, and that at < 1/10th what a 2 carat diamond of comparable color and clarity would cost), and she was convinced enough to go scope it out at a jeweler's that carried it.
I also mentioned the possibility of gemstones; there were plenty that were gorgeous and would be more distinctive than diamond, and set her apart from other women (who, after all, could only brag about the size of their diamond, rather than how it had special meaning to them). Etc.
At the jeweler's as she explored different stones, she ended up picking out an aquamarine that she really liked (and then found out that was my birthstone, locking in the decision even more).
Find a documentary about blood diamonds. Find some excuse to watch it while she's around, and don't let her stop you. Swear and say that you aren't going to hurt people for a wedding ring! Say she can have any thing but a diamond! Etc. Good luck with the drama :)
That's just clearly false. The Kimberly Process wasn't even introduced until 2003! Why would they have done so if there were no issues in the preceding decade?
Further, Wikipedia has this to say:
"The effectiveness of the process has been brought into question by organizations such as Global Witness, which pulled out of the scheme on 5 December 2011, claiming it has failed in its purpose and does not provide markets with assurance that the diamonds are not conflict diamonds."
Girl here. The comments you've gotten so far are going about this the wrong way. Arguments about price, ethics, practical tradeoffs are the dead wrong tone. Proposals should be over the top romantic; you'd never suggest skipping a beautiful or dramatic location to save money, right?
Beyond that, this isn't just about how she feels about it. Everyone she knows, relatives, friends, is going to want to see the ring and hear the story. To all of them, a diamond is the gold standard and a cheap substitute will be an awkward counterfeit. Even if you convince her, you are signing her up to have the ultimate celebration of her, the once in a lifetime birthday party, turn into a lot of awkwardness and sympathy. Bad deal.
Ignore the cost. It's impolite to ask and moissanite is expensive enough. If what you do looks legitimate enough, no one need know. The critical key is that you sell this as better, representative of more thought, more effort, more investment on your part.
Focus on that you're doing something different. Something special. Design a custom ring that speaks to you about who she is. Focus on the ways in which the stone is superior to a diamond. It is unusually brilliant which reminds you of her. It is tougher, harder than what everyone else takes for granted. You mounted it with blue stones for her eyes.
Make it personal and in every possible way, about her and as much as possible tell a story that will make her friends wish someone that thoughtful cared about them enough to do something truly special rather than checking the expected box.
I went for a moissanite/diamond compromise with my fiancee and it worked!
Charles and Colvard (the originators of lab grown moissanite) recently released a new generation known as Forever One and these cuts are currently the best on the market. They're brighter and have more sparkle than diamonds and are completely colourless. Essentially, they look better than any diamond money can buy and have the same properties in terms of hardness etc.
Despite all the advantages of moissanite (quality, price, ethics, environment etc), I knew a little part of her still wanted a real diamond on her finger (no matter how much she tried to pretend otherwise!).
My solution looked like this:
1. A 1 carat 6.5mm Forever One moissanite round centre stone (in a halo setting)
2. ~20 tiny, 0.3 carat real side diamonds (F colour, SI clarity - Note: these two metrics are much more important than the carat weight!)
3. 18K gold for the ring itself (bonus: the gold was recycled - feeble but worthwhile attempt to offset the environmental damage of the diamonds)
All told, it came in at under $1,500 (which, sadly, is ridiculously cheap these days for an engagement ring).
She loves it (and got her diamonds), we have more money to spend on other things and I'm happy I didn't lose too much cash and karma to the diamond cartels.
Yes, but only as a function of their scarcity. Diamonds aren't actually rare. They're only made rare by diamond companies hoarding them and releasing tiny numbers of stones in order to maintain a high price. You certainly wouldn't buy diamonds as an investment, just in case a diamond company dumped their stockpile on to the market and the price collapsed.
Not just that. If you also count diamonds manufactured in the laboratory, then diamonds are pretty common and cheap items. That's why diamond companies put a lot of effort into convincing people that only "natural" diamonds count as proofs of love.
There's a classic article from The Atlantic in 1982 that explains the bullshit. The article is astonishingly relevant, nothing has changed in the 35 years since.
Seems like an american things really. In France, nobody would expect anyone to buy a certain kind of ring. As long as it's pretty, you can go for anything. Or no engagement ring. Some friends of mine don't even get wedding rings. And I just met a not married couple wearing rings just because they liked it.
Our wedding ceremonies are also usually way cheaper and less show off that the ones your pop culture is selling to you, so I hope you are not actually doing it IRL cause that seems a terrible way to start a long term relationship, money wise.
But I guess we don't have such a marriage culture here anymore. People do marry, but we also now have something called the PACS, which is a very simple legal union with no bells and whistles that is pretty popular. And of course plenty of people living for ever without a label on their relationship.
They are not unknown but diamonds are "just another expensive stone" here. People do think they got a lot of value though, it's just that the symbolism of buying one is not as strong.
> It's a bit of a stretch to say that only diamond rings are acceptable
"only" is a pretty exclusive word, but I don't think it's a stretch saying that only diamond rings are acceptable in the general case. Especially amongst the reasonably affluent class that you'll find a lot of on HN, not getting a diamond for a spouse would be unusual enough that friends would whisper behind your backs about it.
(And to be clear, I'm of the opinion that this is crazy.)
For every such anecdote, there is seventeen opposing anecdotes where the wife insisted on a diamond ring and/or her friends/family thought the husband was "cheap" for not buying her one.
edit: Looks like I said something unpopular. Whoops!
(french also)
I know a couple who married at the beggining of their fifties, just went to the mayor's office with two witnesses, signed the papers and that was all. They are both litterature teachers for students in their master cycle.
I was a witness for a couple (who I had only met earlier that day) at a Vegas wedding. I would also like to point out that the U.S. is as large as all of Europe combined, and that there are vast cultural differences throughout.
When I was at Berkeley, a colleague did the same. Came into the office one morning, said "[girlfriend of 5 years] and I just decided to get married today, come down to city hall with us at lunch for the party."
Given that the diamond ring fad apparently originated from a marketing campaign, it would be interesting to see how well the belief that wedding rings should have a diamond correlates with where the ads were run.
At least in the nordics, I don't think there's a specific type of wedding (EDIT: or engagement) ring that you're expected to have, and I think many people have no stone of any kind embedded in theirs.
It's the engagement ring that traditionally has a stone, not the wedding band, which is often just a pure metal (in the US), though many have small stones around the ring.
In Netherland, stones are rare. A plain gold band is the traditional wedding ring. If engagement rings are a thing at all, they're generally the wedding ring worn on the other hand, I think.
Tattoos are up and coming. My wife and I (both from good Christian homes) have a Moebius strip tattooed on the inside of our wrist, as wedding tattoo. My sister and her husband have a self-designed rune on their ring finger, and a heart-shaped celtic knot on their lower arm as engagement tattoo (and I think these are their only tattoos; they certainly are for my wife and I).
My wife and I did have engagement rings: titatium with gold. I lost mine before the wedding, though. I can't lose my tattoo.
"In Europe, where diamond prices had collapsed during the Depression, there seemed little possibility of restoring public confidence in diamonds. In Germany, Austria, Italy, and Spain, the notion of giving a diamond ring to commemorate an engagement had never taken hold. In England and France, diamonds were still presumed to be jewels for aristocrats rather than the masses. Furthermore, Europe was on the verge of war, and there seemed little possibility of expanding diamond sales. This left the United States as the only real market for De Beers's diamonds. In fact, in 1938 some three quarters of all the cartel's diamonds were sold for engagement rings in the United States. Most of these stones, however, were smaller and of poorer quality than those bought in Europe, and had an average price of $80 apiece. Oppenheimer and the bankers believed that an advertising campaign could persuade Americans to buy more expensive diamonds."
To each his own, but personally, I find large wedding celebrations to be an absolute blast. I went to a 500+ person wedding in Beersheba Israel last year and it was incredible. It was one of the most fun, warm, and endearing events I have ever been too.
I kinda have a weird idea that everyone should just be able to do their own thing without being judged. I certainly don't think they should be demonized as "show off" or "pop culture selling to you".
You can have a big party that doesn't cost a lot. I went to an Algerian and a Malian wedding, with 200+ and days of partying for very cheap (even for the local standard).
What I'm talking about are incredible expense like putting fresh flowers everywhere, renting a some fashionable place, spending thousands on rings, dress, make up artists, haircuts, etc.
You can absolutely have a great venue, look stunning and have fun with 100 people without getting in debt for 5 years. This is not what TV is selling you though.
Just for info, diamonds and expensive marriage parties are the rule in Southern Italy as well. Northern Italy is similar to France, when you actually go to a marriage to enjoy yourself and not just to show your dress.
So people do this to signal (both to their spouse and their friends) they are both financially capable and care enough about their spouse to burn a large amount of money on a pyre. It's also a very useful signal that you are serious about the commitment and unlikely to back off of the marriage. I would prefer to replace it with a certificate that proves you have spent X thousand dollars on said certificate from Moche Silnorin Inc. A less personally-beneficial alternative would be some sort of modern dowery, the recipient of which is Moche Silnorin Inc, who holds on to the money until the culmination of the marriage, after which the dowery is given to the wife and so reunited with its giver once they share finances. If the engagement gets broken off, Moche Silnorin Inc keeps the money. However, this raises the possibility of bondsmen. Which isn't a possibility with diamonds, with their awful resale value. So perhaps just a non-refundable expense in exchange for proof you've given X thousand dollars to Moche Silnorin Inc would be ideal.
It shows how the concept of diamond engagement rings were completely invented by a specific ad campaign; first in America and now expanding to the rest of the world.
They were specifically trying to create social pressure to buy the most expensive ring possible; to reinforce the impression that a diamond ring demonstrated wealth and ability to take care of a spouse; and even set the three months salary purchase price target most people reference.
If there's ever been a greater con so openly and deliberately imposed on society, I can't think of one off the top my head.
It's even worse than those. A luxury car will probably be high quality, and might have extra features not standard on more reasonably priced cars. Living in a certain part of town is probably safer. A fancy diamond is only expensive because people think it can be expensive.
It's definitely not just that, because placing huge import on diamonds, and gushing over their (much agreed upon) beauty, and having preferences for stones and cuts etc., and showing them off at the office, and talking about their size and how much they must have cost, and equating some of those things with the size of someone's affection and worth as a person, are still ubiquitous in (at least) American society.
As far as I can tell they're only on the way out with bleeding-edge progressives.
Exactly this. The problem with every diamond critique I see is that their very first argument against diamonds is that they're expensive when that is, in fact, the entire point.
Likewise, all the people who cry foul about the De Beers conspiracy are neglecting the fact that this does absolutely nothing to reduce their signal value. If I spend a large sum of money on something which I know to be worthless just to start my engagement, that's an even better commitment than spending a large sum of money on something which I think is worthless.
People who are anti-diamond should really focus on coming up with alternative signals which has better social outcomes. I would personally prefer some sort of trust, where if the engagement is successful the money is donated to our preferred charity—but if it's not, it's donated to a politician I despise.
If we're dead-set on continuing to use pretty rocks as signals, someone should establish a monopoly on a gem which is impossible to procure from exploiting conflicts. They should still make it extremely expensive, but have all the mining be ethical.
> If we're dead-set on continuing to use pretty rocks as signals
Why do we need signals? Why does the social contract of marriage need an expensive down payment on essentially nothing? These are things modern cultures should be distancing themselves from. The down payment should be for a house or apartment, or just anything useful.
Signals are an essential aspect of human behavior. I don't think trying to eliminate signaling is a productive goal.
You yourself brought up the "social contract" of marriage. A contract is not very powerful if there aren't consequences for breaking it. So that's one crucial signal: we are committed enough to this relationship to spend money on something which is only useful as a signal.
There's also the signals of "my mate is wealthy enough to buy me an expensive diamond" and "he cares enough about me to spend a large sum of money on something which has no useful purpose besides signaling his love for me." Simply wishing that these signals didn't exist won't make them go away.
Useful things make poor signals because you might buy them without any intention of signaling anything. That's why glasses are a worse signal than jewelry, even though they cost just as much: you might be spending money on glasses because you need to see, not because you have money to burn.
Yes, that is the exact kind of ritualistic barbarianism that modern societies should be avoiding. There's nearly endless better ways to have that money spent, even before you get to the "blood" part of blood diamonds.
only immature people with little real relationship experience would consider this childish signaling worth a dime. the only signal being passed is bowing to peer pressure just because you don't want to stick out
If you need money to show your devotion and dedication to a relationship, you will be having a hard time. A relationship makes sense as long as parties enjoy each others company regardless of the size of diamond on the finger.
If something external, such as an expensive ring, is to keep the relationship afloat, I have hard time seeing a point of living and sharing your life with someone.
Alternative signal: Bitcoin. If the engagement ends poorly, the Bitcoin can be un-earmarked and so the entire value can be salvaged. Many other obvious pros as well.
This is a cultural thing you've bought into, that a man must give a woman a tool to signal with. In other cultures this is not important or works the other way around.
I'm anti diamond and your pleas to come up with another useless signal fall on deaf ears - this manufactured need for the signal itself is something we should be fighting as we progress.
For a start it's pretty damned sexist and regressive
Why do you assume I've "bought into" it? I have no intention to marry any time soon, I just think it's unhelpful to completely ignore the reason diamonds are used for engagement rings.
I think the 'reason' is a rationalisation and not hard and fast, it's also culture-specific so hardly transcendent. That's why I take issue with the idea of replacing one signal with the other - the worth of tge signal is entirely subjective and the signal itself is rather out of place in the modern world.
Oh dear. We are constantly subjected to this sort of scolding in the name of some political ideology (in this case, 'wimmin'). Diamonds are exactly about signaling, as is an Ivy League education. Attributing useful properties to either only confuses the signal, which is purest when there is absolutely no utility. Since Ivy League schools pre-select, it is not hard to show that they add no value in and of themselves, apart from fleecing the recipients in exchange for safe spaces.
I'm just pointing out that the basis of this signalling behaviour (if it is as described) is somewhat sexist and regressive - it makes assumptions about the man being the provider and the woman being kept.
Diamonds are indeed all about signalling. Enjoy yourself doing that. Some of us will be laughing at you behind your back for falling for the con though.
When you go to buy a ring they even ask you how much you make some of the time. It's not so much a signaling mechanism, as companies trying to bleed as much as you can possibly afford out of you.
Let's extend this sentiment to all gemstones. Reality show enthusiasts have started ripping up high peaks in Colorado for worthless shiny stones like aquamarine.
"The big difference between moissanite and diamond is that moissanite can be manufactured reliably and efficiently in a laboratory."
Thats not true, diamonds can be manufactured reliably and efficiently in a laboratory as well. And its nearly impossible to tell the difference between natural and artificial ones. Only a very complicated lab test with a machine can tell the difference.
This depends on the method of fabrication - there are several. From my recollection of a Wired article from a decade ago, there was a then-new technique that produced diamonds that were indistinguishable from natural diamonds but for being maybe a little too perfect.
The article I cited was from 2003, but I'm not sure what the relevance is of the relative dates. My comment wasn't directed at the OP, but at the parent's question about fabricated ("cultured" ;) ) diamonds.
At the moment I believe labs can make anything you want diamond wise... And somewhere around 2012 diamond grading labs started issuing certificates for man-made/synthetic stones. http://www.gia.edu/gem-lab-service/synthetic-diamond
I'm curious how difficult moissanite is to manufacture compared to diamonds, as I was under the impression diamonds require high pressure and temperature to make.
Another alternative is synthetic, lab grown diamonds. They are superior to naturally occuring diamonds, cheaper, aren't tainted by human misery and suffering like conflic/blood diamondst, and arent extracted from ecologically damaging mining techniques like open pit mining.
The prices on these are still artificially inflated. I was told directly by the president of one of these synthetic companies that De Beers will move into large production in a few years For now, the other synthetics are just being allowed to exist as the cartel makes the transition provided they don't undercut too much and stay carefully in a few niches.
Be careful googling synthetic diamonds. There are a lot of scammy companies out there using slippery language to fool you into thinking their cubic zirconias are sythetic diamonds. AFAIK there are only a few companies making real jewelry grade synthetic diamonds and they are just barely cheaper than mined diamonds, so if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.
There's also a side-benefit if you're like me. I think the idea of a synthetic diamond is way more interesting than one we dug up. To me it's the difference between "hey look at this shiny rock I found" and "look at what beauty our technology has allowed us to create"
But here's the thing, even though they are purer and "better" in any objective measure they sell for a much lower price because people don't want them.
Diamond ring purchase is about status projection and having an "artificial" one screams low social status and is to be avoided at all cost.
I found that the hard/funny way while visiting Amsterdam and witnessing a woman choosing a diamond at bulk retailer.
When checking the beauty of the stone she clearly preferred the lab created one. Once informed that it was "artificial" and thus much cheaper she immediately changed her opinion stating that the "natural" one was much better and totally refusing the "artificial" one.
They've probably gotten better since I looked in 2012, but at that time, they weren't much cheaper and they had both superior and inferior properties. IIRC, they had less imperfections in the crystalline patterns but more impurities that lead to a more yellow color because of impurities leaking in during fabrication. So they were kickass for practical uses, but didn't look at good.
I'm the OP - surprised to see this at the top of HN today, but happy to post a quick update:
My wife and I have been happily married for ten years now. She loves her ring, and it has held up extremely well. (She just had the band resized, absolutely no issues with the stones.)
No one has ever thought it was anything other than a diamond ring, which includes several years of daily scrutiny from crazy New York City brides in her role as a bridal gown sales manager in a high-end atelier in Midtown Manhattan. Those who know about the stones think they're beautiful and love that there's a good alternative to diamond.
I stand by everything I said in this essay, and would 100% recommend moissanite to anyone who is (or will soon be) in the jewelry market.
Congrats on the solid decade together with your wife, happy to hear you're doing well. I was wondering why in the ten years since your posting I hadn't come across much moissanite in jewelry, until I found out Charles & Colvard had a patent on it until the last year.
Wife and I had read the Atlantic article before it was too late, went with plain wedding bands for both of us. However, living in America, this is causing issues for her, continuously having to explain to friends and acquaintances why she does not have a diamond.
We'd been looking for used rings as an alternative - hence, thank you very much for writing this, you just saved me and my wife several thousand dollars.
> having to explain to friends and acquaintances why she does not have a diamond.
I don't think this is a universal "in America" thing. Maybe in some parts of the country, but here in the northeast it seems like it's none of their business; I can't imagine asking someone to explain it, and I would think someone who did ask was being awfully nosy. FWIW my wife has a diamond ring which she almost never wears, and I can't remember anyone ever asking about it. My parents wear plain gold wedding bands only, and I've never heard anyone ask them about it either.
That's absolutely fair, I should know better than to generalize like that. We live in rural Missouri, which is probably why the social pressure is what it is.
My wife and I, living in the SF Bay area and having no regard for convention whatsoever -- and not really liking diamonds -- went with a sapphire for her ring. She tells me that other women do sometimes ask her about it. This is unfathomable to me, but there it is.
Fuck, my wife and I are in possession of my parents gold (+small diamond) band and rings and wore them during our courtroom marriage ceremony - but we switched to tungsten rings with a carbon fiber inlay because the gold was too fragile and the wife kept scratching everything (including our daughter) with the diamond.
We're much happier with $20 disposable rings (both of us have lost one already); no fear of loss or damage and it gets the point across fine- hell, when I proposed to her I didn't even have a ring, we would have done it this way in the first place.
> WIW my wife has a diamond ring which she almost never wears, and I can't remember anyone ever asking about it
Interesting, I'm from Europe and I'd be curious to know at which point exactly did diamond rings replace gold wedding bands as the "official marriage signs" in the States. Wedding bands are still quite popular over here in Europe, hopefully they don't get replaced any time soon (for one thing, gold actually has some intrinsic value compared to diamonds).
> at which point exactly did diamond rings replace gold wedding bands as the "official marriage signs" in the States.
They didn't. Wedding bands are still the "official marriage sign". Diamond engagement rings are extremely common, however, and it's very common for American women to continue wearing their engagement ring alongside their wedding band.
(As with my wife and my mother, it's definitely not unheard of for women to wear just the wedding band either).
That tradition is news to me. As far as I knew, the tradition is to give
a ring with a stone (commonly diamond) for engagement, and then a plain band for the wedding. Once married, only the plain band is worn.
The reason: stones can snag on clothing, rip an eyeball, snap off, attract violence, or scratch something you care about.
I went with my birthstone (Arizona Peridot, cheap and pretty) from my grandma for the engagement. My wife thought that was sweet. She keeps it in a drawer somewhere as a memento, and wears a plain gold band every day.
I suppose I might prefer titanium over gold, for weight reasons, but the gold is OK.
My mom was born around 1951 in San Francisco to parents raised there and in the central valley. My dad was born around 1946 in San Mateo to parents from Iowa and I forget. The ancestry is Catholic from Ireland, Scotland, Germany, and similar.
The engagement ring is fancy. The wedding band is plain. The wedding band is always worn. The engagement ring could be worn, but that is optional. My mom wore hers often enough that it and the wedding band ground each other away and eventually had to be soldered together. So you don't have to always keep the engagement ring in a box, but you might, and wearing it is totally optional. The wedding ring pretty much never comes off.
My (now ex) wife wanted a titanium ring. She loved it because it was so light and felt like it wasn't even there.
That's one thing out of that marriage that didn't cost me much... (Actually, it was a very amicable divorce; marrying someone who isn't a selfish person fixated on superficial stuff like diamond rings is, I think, a good way to make sure that if the marriage does have to end, that it'll be as painless a transition as possible.)
Is this really a thing in the US? In Italy (and AFAIK in most of Europe) wedding rings are normally plain gold (rarely white or red gold, or platinum) bands. Engagement rings do have a stone, but they are not worn every day.
In Sweden at least it seems to be quite common to wear both rings. However it also seems to be more common to have inset stones, rather than one that sticks out. I've also seen several people who buy the engagement ring and wedding band together as a matching set to make sure they work together. (something which to me always felt rather presumptuous)
It was that way in the US for a very long time. Sometime in the last couple decades a new trend arose to wear both the engagement ring and a wedding band together. The logic being you spent 4-5 figures on beautiful jewelry, so it's silly to only wear it during the engagement. (Whether it's silly to spend that much in the first place is another argument.) I don't know if they are in fashion currently, but many jewelers began selling engagement rings with a paired wedding band that is designed to match perfectly and be fused with the engagement ring after the wedding.
> The logic being you spent 4-5 figures on beautiful jewelry
Good lord, people do this? People spend ten thousand dollars on a ring? Fuck. When we got engaged, we shopped together and I bought her a black opal ring. Diamond was never on the menu, so I never even looked at their prices. I knew diamonds were expensive, but I had no idea the extent to which people were getting suckered.
> Good lord, people do this? People spend ten thousand dollars on a ring?
No, of course not - why would you think that? Those 'high priced' rings are like the wax fruit in a greengrocer, or plastic lobsters at the fishmongers - just there for show...!
Back in the real world, people can actually spend hundreds of thousands, even millions, on jewelry.
There was a big ad campaign from the diamond cartel to make everyone believe that 3 months of (gross) salary was the standard amount to pay for an engagement ring. That means if you only make $36K/year, you still shell out $9K for a ring. I don't know how many bought into it, but it likely did raise the average amount paid by anchoring the price so high. "That's crazy! Maybe half that..."
It's pretty much always been the case that a married woman would wear both her engagement and wedding ring? There's even long-standing etiquette about the order in which they should be placed on the finger - engagement first, I believe? It certainly isn't something new since the 1990s.
We came to a similar conclusion. Although we had already bought a diamond ring.
After researching, we figured out that we could sell our diamond (we only got about 60% of the original price back from a diamond broker) and buy a twice as large synthetic diamond and still save several thousand $.
There is only upside as far I can tell: it looks better (clarity), is bigger (no can tell the difference between a real and "fake" diamond), has fewer environmental and ethical externalities, and is cheaper.
I'm sorry about the 40% haircut. Any jeweler worth doing business with should refund a ring minus the cost to set it.
Diamonds cannot be used, as there is no such thing as a new one. Certainly they can be damaged but that's totally different.
I figure if you buy something a billion years old and return it a few months later in exactly the same condition, if you can only get 60% back then you dramatically overpaid.
It's a very impressive example of avoiding the sunk cost fallacy, though. I think a lot of people would be unwilling to cop that 'loss', even if they realised it would leave them better off overall. (Or perhaps more realistically, they would be unable to admit to themselves that it would leave them better off.)
I really hate to be a random person on the internet giving personal advice but... diamonds being "non-negotiable" seems like a huge, glowing, neon warning sign. Don't be surprised to find out a bunch of other things are non-negotiable if you divorce.
Wow. It's very difficult to respond to you civically. We've been together for a long long time. It is amazing what people you don't know on the internet will assume about you.
There was no alternative before this article. Cubic is cheap and tacky. Diamonds are overpriced and awful. Lab diamonds not much better. This article has a real alternative. That's a huge contribution to all diamond haters everywhere.
I think you were in the right and didn't really assume as much as suggested. I got the same impression particularly because of the language chosen. "non-negotiable" implies that there was a second party to necessitate negotiation. Saying "no alternative" would come closer to describing a personal taste threshold.
Non-negotiable was a bad choice of words. It's been very negotiable. She just really didn't want cubic because of the perception, like someone else had noted.
It's just a little ridiculous to read 3 sentences a stranger types and tells them they are going to get a divorce. Bad form as far as unsolicited advice goes.
Hey mythrwy are you pregnant, you're looking a lot bigger? And also you should dump your partner because they conform to mainstream social standards, total red flag. Oh and you're raising your kids wrong.
Hey why are you offended? I was trying to help! You could be gracious about it.
For one thing, I never said he would get divorced. I said "if you get divorced".
For another thing, if you are going to divulge details of your personal relationship online, you should not be surprised or get upset if someone comments about it. If it's a sensitive issue for you - keep it to yourself. This isn't your journal.
I take my apology back. I did absolutely nothing wrong, and people seriously need to develop thicker skin.
What does this mean to you? Why isn't it true of silicon carbide?
I find it odd to see the simultaneous complaint that one clear cubic crystal is "cheap", but another is "overpriced". What do you want the price to be? Why?
It is not a good thing for courtship gifts to have value; if they have too much value they are likely to be dishonestly accepted by someone who isn't interested in the giver but does want the object.
Why the fact it's cheap makes it tacky? There's plenty of good CZ jewelry and 99% of people won't know the difference with diamonds or moissanite if you don't tell them. Moassanite is good, but still way too much expensive than it should be. It would be fun if we chose homes same way -
"Oh, that big house with large lot, fireplace, etc is perfect in every way for us, but it's 30 times cheaper than that another almost-the-same house that was built by the company which enslaves people and makes them die while building those houses. We will only have to be in mortgage for it for 1 year, so we won't buy it."
Why don't use left over money to buy some trip or something like that? I don't understand why regular working people want to wear half a car on a finger...
The house analogy isn't really working for me.. An almost same house gives 99% of all the important value, but a non-diamond ring isn't the same since it's still a pretty big mental and societal shift one has to deal with.
That does sound better, spending the saved money on 4x$2000 amazing trips together, or 2x$4000 SUPER trips. Priceless memories that would easily be higher value than a nice rock.
The problem with CZ is that it absorbs oil and dirt from the surroundings, so that within a couple years of regular use it's noticeably cloudy. Though I would say for the first year, it's a perfectly good substitute for diamond.
The house analogy doesn't quite work for me. Housing prices vary wildly by their location. Some of it is due to practical reasons(urban centre, close to work), but some of it is clearly just social posturing(buying a house in a posh neighbourhood).
We put cubic in my wife's ring when we got engaged nearly a decade ago. No one has ever noticed and most people talk about how gorgeous her stone is and how much it must have cost :)
> You know, you don't need an engagement ring to get married
You also need a partner who wants to get married to you. Where does HN get it's perfectly compatible partners from? A difference in opinion is not unexpected - not everyone is equally pragmatic. Also,things that are considered "deal-breakers" are far from universal.
So why does only one partner get a ring? Why, typically, the female one? In same-sex marriages, how do partners determine who gets the ring? Flip a coin? Damn.
The answer to all your questions is: it depends on the partners and what they agree to. But on the most part, it is driven by cultural momentum - the same reason men's formal clothing includes a tie. One could equally argue "One does not need to wear a tie to go to work", but there are people who love ties and how they look wearing them.
"Where does HN get it's perfectly compatible partners from?"
Truth is women in our culture are still somewhat of a status symbol. My wife is essentially perfectly compatible with me that was achieved by not simply selecting the most physically attractive person who would marry me but instead finding someone who actually is a decent human being. Her ring cost under 50 dollars. She wants me to spend the short time we all have on earth with her, not working to buy her shiny rocks, a overvalued house or an expensive car so she can impress her friends. I wouldn't have it any other way.
If people want to spend their money on a ring then I have no issue with that. Personally my wife is quite frugal about signs of material wealth (raised in a family with money that drove old Honda's etc) and had very strong opinions about not wanting an expensive ring. Instead we spent our money on a honeymoon exploring Asia and Europe - I wouldn't trade that time for any ring. Travel may be a privilege but teaches you a lot more about the world and the person you want to spend the rest of your life with.
Stoneless rings are common in other countries. Tattoos are up and coming. A bit more painful, but still cheaper than a diamond (and much more permanent).
Name or initial is not quite the same thing, I think. I don't know anyone who has names or initials as a wedding/engagement tattoo. It's usually a simple symbol, like a rune, or in my case, a Moebius ring (two sides that are one, what better wedding symbolism is there?). Although I do know one person with both a wedding and an engagement tattoo who is about to get a divorce after more than 10 years of marriage.
There was always the alternative: I don't care about rings and diamonds and such BS, I care about us being together.
Which is not that uncommon (even in the US) as people here make it out to be. Not everybody goes for a big wedding either -- or even a wedding at all.
Also, as another commenter pointed out, "non negotiable" (as in: I want my diamond ring or we're not getting married") and "no alternative" (as in: we both want to buy the ring, and don't care for it being expensive, but there's no good replacement for a real diamond) is a different thing.
CZ is a very satisfactory diamond simulant. A $10 CZ is almost impossible to distinguish visually from a $10,000 diamond - unless you're a very skilled grader, you really can't tell the difference without a thermal tester or a refractometer. The visual giveaway is that it's too good - the stones are perfectly clear, perfectly colourless and have exceptional fire. CZ grades better than the very best diamonds. When it was introduced in the 1970s, it sent shockwaves through the gem trade.
CZ is a bit less durable than diamond (8 vs 10 mohs hardness, some porosity), but it's so cheap that you can have the stone replaced if it starts to show signs of wear.
Moissanite is a very fine simulant, but to my mind, the main advantage over CZ is that it's more expensive. CZ is implausibly cheap for a high-quality diamond simulant.
Maybe I'm the exception to the rule, but I've been able to consistently spot a CZ, even from a distance. I thought maybe it was just the average cut of a CZ, but doing a blind comparison between similar quality cuts of CZ and diamonds with a jeweler friend, I was able to pick out the CZ first try every time.
> diamonds being "non-negotiable" seems like a huge, glowing, neon warning sign
It's deeply ingrained in Western culture. Think about it like eating dogs. There's no rational reason not to use dogs for meat, but most Westerners would throw a hissy fit rather than eat dog meat.
So don't assume the prospective bride is unreasonable. In fact, assume the opposite, as she was able to read a rational explanation of the issues with diamonds, and change her mind.
Culture just tends to be arbitrary, in the details. If you don't care about potential social consequences, then feel free to ignore the parts that you find absurd.
OT aside: I sometimes like to play automatic reading (ala dada) with google. So at this moment a google search for "It's all nonsense. None of it makes sense." brings up your comment at the top of the page and a few items below this link [1] which has a section entitled "Making sense of nonsense. Conant and Diamond read Wittgenstein's Tractacus".
Now I wonder if that Diamond is a chance event ("nonsense") or correlation artifact from the search algorithm ("sense").
I can't reply to stouset for some stupid reason, but why is it "absurd" to not want to eat horse for texture reasons? My understanding is that horse meat generally does not taste that good and is very tough, because those animals get a lot of exercise; it's like deer meat. Some people like venison, and there's no stigma attached to eating it, but it's hard to buy because demand is low (and they're not raised as livestock), and the meat is generally considered "gamey" and difficult to cook properly so it's tender instead of tough and nasty. Cow and especially chicken is popular meat because it's both relatively cheap and rather easy (and fast) to cook. It's really hard to screw up cooking chicken in fact.
On deeply nested comments, if it hasn't been long since the post was made you have to click the "permalink" ("XX minutes ago" or "XX hours ago") link to reply. I think the extra step is to help slow down flamewars ("do I really need to reply to this comment, right now?".
If this is the intention, it seems like it'd make more sense to throw up roadblocks to only someone else who's in the comment chain, rather than to someone who hasn't been involved at all and is just chiming in. Usually, those flamewars are long chains of comments between two people.
Deer meet is hard to buy, at least in the US, partly because the US has ridiculous laws prohibiting transportation of venison from US deer across state lines in various ways.
In fact, in my experience you're more likely to see New Zealand venison in a US store than US venison, because of the above laws prohibiting transportation.
> There's no rational reason not to use dogs for meat...
Yes there is, unless you would make the same argument for having sex with relatives - which philosophers have rationalized against for thousands of years (way before the genetic consequences were understood). Morality is a rationalization. Dogs are genetically predisposed to be man's best friend - friends don't get eaten.
Diamonds don't even come close, there is no positive moral argument - just a fairly recent PR campaign.
All those animals were domesticated for very different reasons. I've spent a lot of time with horses, my family had three, and they're great animals - but they don't come anywhere close to dogs when it comes to trust and the ability to read people. I've seen dogs trained with nothing more than praise - the desire to please is that strong for them. That doesn't work for horses.
I've owned horses too. It depends on what you want them to do. If you want to jump on their back and ride them around, sure. I don't do that personally, and while they don't read you like a dog can I've taken unsocialized "mean" horses and turned them into friendly companion horses with nothing but patience and the occasional cookie or carrot.
Unless your children keep having sex with their siblings as well, just pair of incest marriage doesn't actually have significant risk of genetic consequences.
Good to know. Although it does raise the question of how a line is drawn. I'm imagining a "I smoked pot when I was your age but..." sort of conversation - just infinitely more uncomfortable for everyone involved.
I have to agree that it's not a great sign if she insists on this. What other trendy stuff is she going to demand just because "everyone else does it"?
I'm somewhat recently divorced now, but one good thing about my ex is that she was never superficial like this. She was perfectly happy to get a $70 Titanium wedding band, and loved how lightweight it was, and never wanted a silly gemstone on her hand. We did get her a couple other rings with gemstones (much cheaper ones, and prettier too; I think one was Tanzanite?), for wearing at special occasions, but wearing a gemstone ring every day is impractical and dumb really; it's just going to get in your way, and worse it's easy to take it off and then lose it. I knew a guy once whose wife dropped her $10k diamond ring down the drain while doing dishes! (No, they didn't recover it.)
it ain't normal to want to see the man you are supposed to love unconditionally, to financially bleed on impractical trinket that some people pay with almost proper enslavement, so you can brag about it with your friends (you = anybody, nothing personal here).
if that's an US norm, so what, it's still wrong on many levels. it ain't like that here in europe. the last ex-gf that mentioned 3-salary rule for it was exactly the type you should never, ever marry, no matter what person you are. my fiancee on the other hand is happy with 70 euro ring since relationship is about everything else, but this.
if woman sets this as non-negotiable standard to get married, there is no love from her in relationship, just pure calculation and she treats her counterpart like an idiot. simple as that.
If she wants a diamond so badly, she can spend her own money on it.
If I really want a sports car, I don't expect my fiance to buy it for me. If I want a cellphone, I don't expect my girlfriend to buy it for me and pay for the service.
> diamonds being "non-negotiable" seems like a huge, glowing, neon warning sign
uh... well, apparently it was negotiable, since all he had to do was find a suitable alternative and send her a link to a convincing article on the internet.
> diamonds being "non-negotiable" seems like a huge, glowing, neon warning sign
This is dependent on the relationship between the two people. If one party is strongly against the concept of diamonds and DeBeers, then yes, it'll be an issue. However, your parent commenter might be more moderate, or just doesn't care that much that their partner agrees with this particular societal pressure.
I gave my wife a moissanite and seeded are to-be joint saving account with the 10k we saved. You just have to remember that the burden of wearing the moissanite is on the woman. The choice is obvious but the social pressure is huge. Women love to look at other women's rings and chat about it. If she is open to the idea, just remember that she's the one being brave and breaking out of the mold more so than you :)
> Women love to look at other women's rings and chat about it. If she is open to the idea, just remember that she's the one being brave and breaking out of the mold more so than you.
This is a great description that captures the social pressure aspect quite well. Guys aren't the ones wearing the ring everywhere!
Also most guys wouldn't care in the least about rings (unless you know it has bluetooth or zigbee or something).
Agree grandparent comment truly made me understand the woman's side of thing. It's easy for men to dismiss them as being irrational.
I am glad that diamond engagements aren't a thing in India. (Although in place of it we have a ton of other retarded customs). Gold is pretty much the standard here - which is actually quite practical. It makes a good liquid asset, holds its value, stays as an insurance and safety during hard times.
> Guys aren't the ones wearing the ring everywhere!
I believe that the bride-only thing is US-only, or (maybe) limited maybe limited to ex-british regions, but it's definitely not universal, and definitely not a thing in latinamerica (diamonds aren't a thing here either) or a great deal of europe.
In Hong Kong, both the husband and the wife wear a ring. My mother lost hers, my dad is still wearing his. My wife lost hers, I'm still wearing mine. XD
I'm probably odd, but I personally wouldn't be marrying anyone who "caved" to social pressures about a non-functional fashion accessory barely noticeable from anything other than up close. Thankfully, I already found someone like that.
it's about strength of the personality - are you a conformist which tries hard to not stick out of the crowd, behaves as all the others, listens to the same stuff, thinks the same or do you forge your own way, whatever it means for you specifically?
I prefer this strength in women - as it is not an isolated feature of personality. Life is too short to spend it with someone that shallow, unless that is exactly what you want/need.
And yes, if it's not clear, women requesting diamond rings as statement of true love (that's just not true and won't make the relationship any better), or blabbing about 3-salary-worth of diamonds... meh, I say you can do better.
From a fellow moissanite fangirl, thank you for writing this up! I always enjoy telling people my ring isn't a diamond, but the essay is more compelling to share with folks that can't see moissanite in person.
I have a 1ct moissanite and 2 3mm white sapphires in my ring, and the bonus was that custom designing my own ring was still _drastically_ cheaper than getting a diamond: http://i.imgur.com/H3jDulz.jpg
Funny you say that. My partner got a custom band of his own too (engraved and anodized titanium): https://i.imgur.com/c08efTs.jpg
The diamond ring he was "supposed" to get me (according to my family and friends and DeBeers) is easily over 10x the cost of my ring+band plus his band combined - even without comparison shopping. We spent that excess money on a 2 week honeymoon, most of our wedding expenses and splurges, and cat food. I recently just added the two white sapphires (a nod to our currently baking bun) for pocket change too. No regrets. I get my shiny bling-desires fulfilled at bargain bin prices.
Thanks for writing this. My problem is only that you consider mosanite inexpensive, which is relative to Diamonds true, but from a ring search i could only find nice looking ones for >1000€ which is still expensive/hardly affordable to me.
Try the second-hand market, and buy the stone you like, and the ring you like (sperate). It's extremely in-expensive (usually included in the cost of the ring if you buy it at a store) to have your stone set into the ring of your choice.
I spent a total of $500 to have a .75ct diamond set in a ring this way.
Not if you get married in Vegas at a chapel with a small handful of family members. It's still a fraction of that cost, but a reasonably-large fraction (maybe 1/10 at most, instead of 1/100).
That would be a significant fraction of our wedding costs. We held ours in our back yard, ordered some catering, served buffet-style, about 50 guests. No DJ, just set up some playlists on Google Music. There's no requirement to blow five figures on a one-day party, just some bizarre social expectation.
- Lab-grown diamonds are purer, more perfect crystals, cheaper, and better than mined diamonds in every way. (ignoring the market manipulation factor, which I'm not too knowledgeable about, except that I've heard big diamond companies do some shady things to keep prices high)
- Girls hate lab-grown diamonds because they consider them "artificial".
Also in your article, you don't seem to make such a distinction, so I'm wondering if your article is about lab-grown, mined, or both?
1st assumption is correct. 2nd assumption is incorrect.
My wife was perfectly happy in particular with the environmental and ethical benefits. Also doesn't hurt that you can get a larger diamond that looks much better.
Regarding the second, that's very much the angle DeBeers marketing has been trying to push. In practice, it will be true of some girls and not true about others.
FWIW, I agree that "science and the progress of human knowledge" isn't exactly the right symbolism for a wedding ring. But I do think it's better than "blood and oppression", at least given my personal views on marriage...
> Lab-grown diamonds are purer, more perfect crystals, cheaper, and better than mined diamonds in every way. (ignoring the market manipulation factor, which I'm not too knowledgeable about, except that I've heard big diamond companies do some shady things to keep prices high)
This is completely correct, although in the absence of De Beers mined diamonds would be cheaper. (Creating diamonds is technically quite difficult, but they are very common in nature.)
> Girls hate lab-grown diamonds because they consider them "artificial".
I can deny this. I collect synthetic cut gemstones. There are three types of common reactions:
1. "It looks fake."
2. "What are you going to do with it? What's the point?"
3. "Wow, it's beautiful!"
I've never seen someone who thought a gem was beautiful decide they'd been wrong after learning the stone was created. Girls might dislike synthetic diamonds in engagement rings because they think the symbolism is wrong; they don't dislike them in general.
> in your article, you don't seem to make such a distinction, so I'm wondering if your article is about lab-grown, mined, or both?
The OP is talking about lab-grown moissanite:
>> The big difference between moissanite and diamond is that moissanite can be manufactured reliably and efficiently in a laboratory. The result: flawless, brilliant gemstones at about 1/10th the cost of a comparable diamond.
I'm not, especially that this article was very popular not so long ago [1].
After a while on HN you can figure which subjects they like, and which they don't. Diamond are yes subject. Another example could be Leonard Cohen. His recent departure has so much to do with technology or hacking as your toilet seat, but yet he was #1 for a long time...
There is also an interesting online company called My Trio Rings (http://www.mytriorings.com) that does conventionally mined diamonds but has, AFAICT, lower than average prices. I think one of their guys posts to HN sometimes.
I find the arguments in your essay compelling. Are there any particular resources you'd recommend to someone wanting to educate himself further about moissanite?
Sol: No, it's a moissanite.
Bad Boy Lincoln: A what-in-ite?
Sol: A moissanite is an artificial diamond, Lincoln. It's Mickey Mouse, mate. Spurious. Not genuine. And it's worth... fuck-all.
Thanks for writing this. I'm glad people are pushing back against the insanity of the diamond marketing.
But you're still buying into the concept of the gifting of rings, when this is a recent phenomenon created by De Beer's. Unless they were European royalty, your great-great-grandparents did not exchange rings. Commoners did not have this custom until the twentieth century. When you suggest getting non-diamond rings, you perpetuate the expectation that people should exchange rings, continuing De Beer's advertising campaign.
My wife and I got married without exchanging any rings for this reason. I thought that I might need to explain my position on rings to friends and family, but we've never gotten so much as a comment about it.
This site isn't trying to upend the artificial customs that we've come to cherish, just to substitute one costly part of it with a cheaper indistinguishable alternative for all the reasons he described
> Commoners did not have this custom until the twentieth century
It really depends on the culture. Having the groom give the bride something of value is a quite old tradition for Jewish weddings, including "commoners" (read: all Jews, pretty much). A ring was in fact a quite common such gift going back a long way.
That said, if a ring is used in this case it must traditionally be a plain band with no stones; we're not talking diamond rings here.
I like to believe that there's a lot of savvy and affluent couples out there who are buying either moissanites instead of diamonds and choosing not to tell their friends or family about it to avoid the social stigma. They then take the $5k to $20k they just saved (what's the rule of thumb, one month's gross salary?) and put it towards bootstrapping their new life.
You can even post close-up pictures of the stone on Facebook and not a single person you know will ever be able to tell because, as noted by the article, the difference is indistinguishable to the human eye.
As long as both members of the couple find this acceptable, it would be silly not to at this point.
> I like to believe that there's a lot of savvy and affluent couples out there who are buying either moissanites instead of diamonds and choosing not to tell their friends or family about it to avoid the social stigma.
This is so foreign to me. Why do people care? It's just a way to signal wealth and really not much different than a bride price (a cultural practice that American expats are quick to criticize in an Asian culture, for reference). My girlfriend / future-wife and I will get matching steel rings or something similar, like my parents have. She's not American so she was thrilled by that idea. I already told her I won't wear it most of the time because rings are annoying, and again that was no problem at all.
I would run the other way if someone is resolute about buying a diamond, after everything that is known about the diamond industry. It means either that person is totally ignorant of the world around them, or doesn't care about making a positive impact with their lifestyle choices.
My impression is that it's due to the same reason Americans leave large tips if they can. Without an established class system, money is the signal used to demonstrate your standing in relation to others.
Incidentally, money and class are, in my experience, the most misunderstood aspect of the English class system by Americans. There is a loose correlation, but it's only very loose. It's quite common in the UK to have upper class families with hardly any money beyond inheritance, and conversely rich lower class families who might run their own businesses.
Interestingly, the upper class man wouldn't feel the slightest bit inferior for neglecting to buy a diamond ring for his fiancé unless doing so was the "done thing" by previous generations of his or her family, whereas the rich lower class man would be clamouring for the biggest one he could afford.
Generalizations, but so termed due to being generally true.
That's nice. Androids are fine phones too for a fraction of the cost. The problem is my wife likes diamonds and iPhones and I doubt either has much to do with the specs.
Fun fact: Moissanite is nothing else than silicon carbide, which is also used for high-temperature power electronics. So, why don't give her/him a MOSFET ring? ;)
This may be a great / bad idea depending on his/her preferences.
I told my girlfriend (5 years) how I feel about diamonds and that I reject the very notion of buying a diamond engagement / wedding ring early on in our relationship.
Several months ago, we landed on the marriage conversation, again. I reiterated that I am against diamond engagement bands. She then said: "What about a wedding ring then?" I told her it applies to wedding rings as well. We got into a heated argument and she eventually said: "Let's just not talk about it anymore." What? Let's not talk about marriage anymore because I am against diamond engagement wedding rings and wedding bands?
Umm...Okay!
TL;DR GF said she doesn't want to get married unless I show her how much I love her by getting a diamond wedding ring or engagement ring.
Did you get to the point of explaining why you're against diamonds? Was she able to tell you why she wants a diamond in particular? To resolve this issue it would be good to exchange the exact, real reasons why one side wants the diamond and the other doesn't. But even then, it may end up your GF will insist on the diamond - while all the rational-in-the-vacuum reasons are against diamonds, there's this whole thing called culture, social pressure and someone spending half of their life imagining the perfect diamond ring. Those are perfectly valid reasons too. So if she insist, don't be angry at her - be angry at De Beers.
Yeah well, societal pressures only go so far in influencing a relationship. If the other party can't respect your values, an argument over a diamond is the least of your worries.
I dunno, I don't think it's that simple. For one, the "respect your values" arguments goes both ways: she values a diamond, he doesn't. If she insists on a diamond, she's not respecting his values. If he insists on no diamond, he's not respecting hers.
It's very easy to justify going the no-diamond route, sure. From a financial point of view, it's just a bad idea. Some say the finances aren't the point, so you can turn to ethical arguments (diamonds are bloody business). You can't really lose the no-diamond argument; it's too easy to make.
Still, it's awfully convenient for the guy to be the one making the argument against buying an expensive ring. This doesn't make the arguments wrong, but depending on the relationship, the girl might suspect that the guy is making those arguments, not out of financial responsibility or morality, but out of apathy or simply being cheap. The guy might be making sound arguments, but his ulterior motive might still be problematic, and the girl might be taking issue with that. Also, there is a whole lot of meaning (artificial, but real just the same) that goes into the rituals of marriage, and you can't just dismiss all of that with some textbook argument about diamond cartels.
The relationship isn't doomed in this case; the couple can grow past it, and it's an opportunity to understand each other. The problem is, if either the guy or the girl takes on the perspective of "I'm obviously right and you're wrong if you disagree," then they're being unreasonable and stalling out the relationship. Both parties need to be honest and understand the other to get past it. The discussion over the diamonds may in fact be very important because it gets to the heart of a bunch of concurrent issues.
(I'm using "guy" and "girl" here because that's the situation where these cultural norms are at play. Obviously any other combination of genders could have the same issues, though I suspect it's less common in those cases.)
> It's very easy to justify going the no-diamond route, sure. From a financial point of view, it's just a bad idea.
Going with the nuts advice of spending a month's salary (or more!), yeah, that is awful, but, as I did, you can buy a diamond ring for less than < 1k (Canadian!). I'd have preferred not buy anything, but as you said, being reasonable in your relationship is about understanding what your partner values as well and try to reach a middle ground.
Not at all. Of all the reasons for wanting a diamond ring, the mere fact that it's expensive is relatively low on the list for many (most?) people, and even then the price is just a proxy for expressed commitment. If it were about the money, a million other things could take its place. Personal value is the sum of many different factors, of which finances, morality, tradition, etc. are all a part.
There are many factors and implications that go into the tradition, and the diamond itself is symbolic of much of it. That's why you can't logically reduce the tradition down to a single element with an easy alternative.
For example, the actual act of popping the question is an important part of the tradition, and it's inextricably linked to the ring. We all know how it goes: the guy and the girl are on some sort of date, the guy says something vague, he pulls out a small box and opens it, and the girl can see the ring inside. She knows what this means before he even says anything, and is already nodding her head (hopefully) before he asks, "Will you marry me?"
That's all very easy to follow. Now imagine the guy pulls out the keys to a house or something instead of the ring. She wouldn't realize what's happening until he actually asks the question, which is fine of course... but it's not the same tradition, and it might not have the same magic to it. Beyond the proposal itself, the ring is a physical difference that she will carry through to the next day, which will prompt excitement from her friends and coworkers and remind her of that moment.
And that's just one element of the whole tradition. I think it's very easy to see why one would value the diamond. I just said that the price was about expressed commitment. There's much more to the tradition than that.
There's also another argument: what exactly is the woman's role in this relationship? Is she merely a possession? If she insists on a diamond, then I think she should also be expected to be treated as a possession, and an inferior person. Because she's not acting like an equal partner by insisting the husband spend a ton of money on a worthless rock to "prove" his dedication and love for her.
A woman who's really an equal partner would rather see her husband do something useful with that money, such as make a down payment on a house.
The whole concept of spending 2 months' salary on a diamond ring is the product of the most successful marketing campaign in history, by the deBeers company back in the first half of the 20th century. It is not something steeped in tradition (or at least nothing that goes back that far, or is the product of anything besides corporate marketing). So someone who insists on a real diamond ring is merely a dumb stooge who's easily swayed by advertising if you think about it.
First off, I don't understand how you make the jump from "wants a possession" to "deserves to be treated as a possession." Even if we accept that wanting a diamond ring would make her dumb (and I don't accept that), it still wouldn't warrant treating her like property. That seems like an awfully dehumanizing perspective to hold.
Second, the fact that the tradition is a modern one, that started with an advertising campaign, is basically irrelevant. As far as the woman is concerned, this is something that every other married girl she's ever known has received. It's perfectly natural to want hers too. If she's particularly financially minded or happens to be exceptionally grounded in this case, she might decide to reject the tradition, but it's hardly a marker of unintelligence to feel otherwise. I'm sure you hold many irrational preferences in your life, as do we all, and it's not any more fair to insult her for her wishes than it is to insult you for yours.
I find it interesting that you suggest a down payment on a house as an alternative to buying a diamond ring. First, you're presuming that the diamond ring is such a burden that it's getting in the way of the couple's other financial obligations (which may be the case, but also may not). But also, your suggestion proves just how subjective and emotional these things really are, because property ownership is yet another optional part of "the dream" that many might consider a needless extravagance, much like a diamond ring. Sure, it seems to have more utility (on the surface), but it's also far more expensive, and it will continue to become more expensive as time passes on. Property ownership is valued much more highly in some cultures than others, and the notion of saddling yourself with debt (a mortgage) for 30 years just for that privilege seems downright insane to some people.
She deserves to be treated as a possession because somehow the man is expected to shell out all of HIS money for this stupid rock, solely for her benefit. What exactly is SHE contributing to the relationship anyway? Obviously, she has nothing to contribute except being a possession, so she should act like this, because this is the role she is demanding. After all, why isn't SHE blowing 3 months' worth of her pay on something for you?
Is this dehumanizing? Damn right it is. If you demand a dehumanized relationship, then of course it's dehumanizing. If you don't want to be dehumanized, then demand a relationship based on equality. I'm not going to treat a woman as an equal if she doesn't act like it, and instead demands to be treated as some kind of possession, which is the only reason there is to spend 3 month's salary on a stupid rock for her.
And yes, it absolutely IS a marker of unintelligence for her to not reject this idiotic tradition. What do you think of women who demand to have their or their daughters' genitals circumcized because of tradition? That's pretty stupid too. This is no different. Again, if you want to be treated as an intelligent person, then start acting like it. There is no rational basis for wanting a diamond ring worth 3 months' salary. And while I may not be perfect as far as rational preferences, I try damn hard to make sure I am rational and am not clinging onto stupid beliefs for no good reason. This also isn't to say that all traditions are stupid: for instance, I like the tradition of putting up a Christmas tree (which of course comes from Germanic pagan traditions). It looks nice, it's seasonal, it's fun putting up the ornaments with family, etc. And these days you can get artificial trees so you're not killing trees for the tradition (you can also get trees with intact root balls and then replant them after the holidays). But the important key here is cost versus benefit: holiday traditions are fun and a nice family practice, but they're also pretty cheap. Artificial trees and ornaments are not at all expensive these days, unless you're desperately poor.
Now, as for your comment about a ring being a burden, it damn well is a huge burden, for everyone. Did you forget the part about it having to be 3 months' salary? This isn't like a Christmas tree which is generally fixed-price, it scales to whatever your income is. Can you seriously afford to take 3 months of your salary, withdraw it as cash, and set it on fire? I don't know anyone who would do anything that stupid; if I'm going to lose 3 months' pay, I might as well just take a 3-month unpaid vacation instead of working my ass off for money when then gets wasted.
And no, a house downpayment is not a "needless extravagance"; that is an utterly stupid thing to claim. People need a place to live, and while you can debate things like rent vs. buy, real estate appreciation rates, and the current market conditions, in general, for middle-class people, home ownership in the US is a fairly stable store of value if you don't plan to move for a while, and owning your own home means you don't have to pay rent any more. If you don't like the mortgage example, change it to something else, like putting the money in the bank or a stable value fund in case you lose your job. Or into a good index fund, where it's most likely going to appreciate significantly over the years. There's plenty of places where you can invest 3 months' pay that are perfectly sensible and will give you a far better return than just lighting it on fire.
You're not merely "questioning a sexist tradition", you're shoehorning a bunch of other weirdness (and a bunch of assumptions that may or may not hold for any specific couple) around it.
Taken to its logical conclusion, your argument boils down to saying that any human who spends money on something that's not strictly utilitarian deserves to be treated as non-human. You try to hedge against this by saying that you enjoy some traditions--like putting up a Christmas tree--but that just shows bias. A Christmas tree is a pointless item that people buy because it looks nice and the ritual helps bring people together. Why can't a diamond ring be bought because it looks nice and can help bring people together? There are definitely people out there that actually enjoy shopping for the ring.
There are many things people "waste" money on, yet they don't deserve to be called sub-human or property. People pay thousands of dollars extra for luxury car models. People pay millions of dollars for art that they can't appreciate any more than a dollar store painting by Joe-painter. People pay hundreds of dollars for expensive meals that contribute to the suffering of animals. These are the extreme cases, but every human being that has expendable income will buy pointless things simply because they like them. Heck, weddings themselves are usually more expensive than the ring, and they're an even greater waste of money; at least you can sell the ring for something later on. People pay for memories and for experiences (which the ring also provides, by the way); compared to those things, which hold zero financial value long-term, overpriced gemstones are actually a relatively good investment. It's more like buying an overly huge TV than setting the money on fire.
Yet once again, even if they were the worst investment in the world, your pride in taking a dehumanizing stance is bothersome.
I don't know why you would think the woman is contributing nothing to the relationship. Why not assume the man is contributing nothing? Maybe the woman is the breadwinner and highly supportive while the man pursues some artistic dream that generates little income? Forget the finances; why can't a woman contribute mentally and emotionally to the relationship? I simply can't understand where your comments are coming from.
The most troubling part of the tradition is, of course, that the man is expected to do it. Except the woman is also expected to receive it. If you personally refuse to buy a ring, then you need to find a partner who agrees with your stance. But, even a woman who doesn't care that much might still be put into uncomfortable situations (by friends, family, etc.) by not having one. To her, the social inclusion might mean she would prefer to have one (plus, it looks nice). If your partner makes it clear to you that they value a ring, then there's no foul play; it's simply one more part of their complex personality. It's simply an emotional preference; intelligence doesn't come into it. You can choose whether that's a deal breaker for you. Personally, I'm happy to buy the ring, because I enjoy buying nice-looking things for other people, and the ring is one I'll get to appreciate every day I see it. Like having children or living in Hawaii, it's something that one person might value more than the other, and it's important that the couple come to an understanding before they commit to each other.
Your fixation on the 3-months salary is misguided. First off, that's a guideline, not a requirement (I've heard of few brides who count the pennies, and the ones that do make their values quite obvious). Second, I seriously can afford to spend 3 months of my salary on a luxury item. I understand and sympathize that not everyone is as comfortable a financial situation as I am, but just like every single purchase, how much of a "burden" it is to you depends entirely on your financial situation.
I'd rather not be with someone who is so callously materialistic. If she's not openly offended at the presumption of blood diamonds, she's not really my type.
> So if she insist, don't be angry at her - be angry at De Beers.
I completely agree. My fiancé and I are currently two engaged Americans, and we had a couple conversations about how we envision our wedding ceremony to happen. For the most part, we had very casual viewpoints on marriage (we don't need to make a big deal out of it), but she wanted a ring and I wasn't too hot on giving De Beers more money. She agreed with me, even admitted that it was a silly notion to have a diamond ring, but I can tell it's what she truly wanted.
At the end of the day, I decided to go with the diamond and she really loves it. If I had gotten my way, I would've gone with an alternative like moissanite or a synthetic, but we're both happy with the outcome.
It's good to see that Americans are starting to wake up about wedding culture, but I'm anticipating that it will take a few generations for most people to rid themselves of it. If I purchased an alternative gemstone for my fiancé, her parents would've been upset with me, but if my child wanted to get an alternative gemstone, I would praise them.
I know that's the argument for various people, I just wondered whether that was the case for their spouse, since synthetic is definitely a real diamond, albeit not one that took centuries to grow.
> It's good to see that Americans are starting to wake up about wedding culture, but I'm anticipating that it will take a few generations for most people to rid themselves of it.
Don't worry, there's always another advertising campaign to push us something we won't need. Trust me. "If you can't afford to take a year off and travel with your future partner, then your relationship won't be able to sustain the trials of everyday life."
> So if she insist, don't be angry at her - be angry at De Beers.
By doing so, you're ignoring her agency and her role in the problem. It's not like DeBeers has some kind of mind control laser pointed at the brains of every woman in the world. They put out advertising, and some people fall for it.
If you need to be angry about something, be angry about our education system which fails to teach people to think critically about what they see on their glowing god-screens.
I didn't mean that De Beers is actually lasing neurons in womens' brains. But they shaped the culture around western wedding rituals by a century's worth of heavy marketing.
> If you need to be angry about something, be angry about our education system which fails to teach people to think critically about what they see on their glowing god-screens.
I would cut the education system some slack here. Advertising isn't a physical constant - it's a dynamic, optimized product of other humans. Smart humans who weaponize psychological and sociological research to maximize the impact of marketing techniques. An individual doesn't stand much of a chance against it by the very virtue of how professional specialization works. Even if people all suddenly became perfect critical thinkers, advertising industry would focus on exploiting some other weak spots.
> By doing so, you're ignoring her agency
A tangent, but I'm increasingly believing that individuals have much less agency than it is generally believed. We all strongly respond to incentives, especially in areas that strongly matter to our lives.
I'd agree with you if this were any other product. The marketing campaign in this instance was so utterly, totally, disastrously successful that it's become a cultural phenomena.
Really, you've got to hand it to them. And I have to agree it's not a fault to be sensitive to the judgement of your peers.
If after the overwhelming evidence, you can't still reach a reasonable agreement, I think that is a very good reason to not marry someone. That is a the kind of pattern that would repeat for the rest of the life, and at some point you will max out and burst by spoiling the marriage.
Why not instead be with someone who you can reason?
The gem you're buying may not come from war torn Africa, but increased demand will be reflected there. Smuggling is a thing, and the Kimberly Process is flawed.
... or at least that was the state of things last I looked into this in depth; my knowledge may well be dated.
Purple from the anger that her boyfriend doesn't love her enough to drop their own personal beliefs, and get that damned rock.
For girls, it's not personal, it'd social. If her "friends" are such that they will look down on her if she didn't get a rock, she will insist on one. As a man, you must understand this.
I've thought about what I would do in your situation. One way to counter the "you're cheap and don't love me enough to spend the money" thoughts that she may have is to spend the same amount of money. Say you buy her some kind of ring whatever setting / stone / etc... The rest of the "3 month's salary" marketing that has been shoved upon us you could donate to charity or give away to relatives, homeless or whatever. That along with explaining your rationale as someone else suggested would be good too. Show her resources online. Hearing it from someone else can help, show her you're not the only one. If you're still at a deadlock after that well, take it or leave it...
This isn't really a place for relationship advice, but to frame it in the context of a startup, if a founder just won't talk about a decision you both need to make together, that's a huge red flag that maybe going into business with this person isn't the best idea.
I haven't gone through this myself, but I've read that part of picking a great founder is finding someone you can talk through issues with, even if they're uncomfortable.
Not talking about something is a much bigger issue than disagreeing about something.
Take it from another perspective, this is more like a cofounder (or really, two cofounders) being so headstrong that he won't budge on his opinion for the good of the company.
If you explain clearly your viewpoints on diamonds, where those viewpoints are rooted, and the partner doesn't agree even after understanding your viewpoint, then you should consider compromising.
I would say think very carefully before deciding if you want to marry her.
This advice applies to everyone really, but especially to you as this incident is a signal that there might be some incompatibility in your values, which is a warning sign.
I'd say try and take this to the ultimate conclusion of resolving the topic amicably, without either side just giving in. Don't shut it down or put it off. A fight, or even a break up is better than carrying on as if it doesn't matter. This would be a good test of how things will go once you are married.
Also read some books on choosing a partner / comparability.
I would say that this should be the highest priority thing for you so ditch any side projects, say NO to overtime and sort this one out. Good luck, and feel free to take this unsolicited advice with a pinch of salt :-)
Just buy her the diamond! If it's something that she really wants, then don't let your own feelings get in the way of that. Thats really selfish. Kind of the gist of being married is compromise.
I mean, seriously, a ring could be had for $3k. You're going to throw away a 5 year relationship with someone you'd like to be married to because you won't buy her something that costs the same as the new stupid MacBook? She's not worth the $3k to you? She's the one who should be having second thoughts.
And it's not selfish of her to demand spending tons of money 'just because'?
Of course each case is individual, but the whole situation can be a signal for a bunch of bad things (bad with money; can't use logic; don't care about man's feelings; etc). Maybe it is right thing to do to cut losses now.
This is one of the most manipulative arguments I've heard from people. I can't put a price on what my wife or son are worth to me, yet, I'd not buy something just at any price because my wife or son want it. Thankfully I was in a position to talk to my wife and she just wanted something symbolic so we went with something for less than 1k. Another good argument to bring in this situation is to show you're willing to spend the money, just not on something like a diamond, offer perhaps take her to a ver nice vacation.
You seem unable explain why she requires a diamond ring, which makes it very unlikely you would be able to change her mind.
Engagement/wedding rings are status symbols. Most women feel this more strongly than men. When first engaged most women will want the ring to be noticed and be rather conspicuous about making it visible. Many of her friends and colleagues will comment on it and having a high value ring will be a point of pride.
It feels good to show off. By saying you don't want to pay for a diamond, she may feel that she will be missing out on all of the pride and status effects.
My own tactic for convincing my wife to accept a moissanite stoned ring was simple. Reframe it as the higher status option. The moissanite stones are higher quality and have more brilliance. Moissanite are "conflict-free" stones. We went ring shopping together and allowed her to choose rings/settings that she liked. I pointed out that some of the settings would be out of our price range even with a flawed diamond, but we could substitute a flawless moissanite and people would notice the improvement.
Ultimately if she still wants a diamond stone, it is her choice and it is her status symbol.
We were engaged in 2006 and I forwarded that article to my soon to be wife. Her answer was: I don't think this is funny. I ended up buying a 10k diamond ring. We're still happily married with 1 beautiful 8 y.o. daughter. Ask any married guy and they'll all say the same: pick your battles!
Exactly. Who is one person to judge what someone else finds important or gets pleasure from even if invented by a marketing person? What is the value of a football or soccer game or a host of other things people spend money on. Ripoff is in the eyes of the beholder.
It sounds more that both of you are [insanely lucky to be / oblivious of being] well off rather than that you're gifted with exceptional knowledge about marriage.
617 comments
[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 319 ms ] thread[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moissanite#Applications
https://www.wired.com/2014/06/toyota-semiconductors-evs/
1. Crystals can shatter if stuck at the wrong angle (unlikely but possible).
2. Unlike a gold band the crystal ring can't be resized later in life.
edit: I see many downvotes. Guys, seriously, was it for me, I would buy nothing. It's just how this world works. You can express your anger by downvoting me, I'll be fine, but please don't fall into this belief that diamonds are just a stone. They are unfortunately just a status, like brands...
In the end it's just a conversation between people who say, "You can't just ignore these social conventions" and people who say "these social conventions are stupid, find someone who isn't so shallow."
If you think everyone falls into one camp or the other, however, then you have a lot to learn.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/how...
There are some enlightened people out there, and then there's the Kardashian. You don't want a Kardashian. They have an expiration date. If you think I'm being sexist; I mean Rob. Yes, the boy who has the personal chef, and cries about his weight. (I like the kid, but I knew I would get blowback. So covered my statement with an easy target.)
There are certainly women who adore diamonds, but not every woman does.
You should really have an open conversation about that and weight the implications of it. It can slowly build up to an unavoidable obstacle for the relationship.
Plus, to be honest, I imagine if you gave a woman the choice between an engagement ring that cost $6000 and a much cheaper engagement ring that their boyfriend spent 6 months finding, most would choose the ring that their boyfriend spent time thinking about and choosing. Women have as much money as men do for buying status symbols; when it comes to an engagement ring they're looking for something that mere money can't buy.
I came here to post that the article misses the point!
As you said, diamond rings are about the status.
They are a signal, first and foremost.
It's like expensive cars and (dare I say) Apple products:
the wastefulness is an indicator of wealth, just like the peacock's massive tail is wasteful: it is expensive to grow and detrimental to its ability to escape predators.
So, as dimino suggested, I would spend the same amount...
but I'd spend it on Moissanite ;)
After we learned about Blood Diamonds, De Beer's manupilation with supply, fake diamonds that fool the experts, etc.
We are all going to raise an eyebrow, when he says, "I wanted 5 carat one?". Now--on many levels?
I laughed very hard for minutes when I found that!
[0] - according to sources like http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you...
Edit: Also wouldn't calling a fashion item ostentatious or low quality be a critique of bad fashion?
I'm not even opposed to CZ if it looks pretty, but I wanted to give her a diamond and gold, and anything else would have felt like a substitution.
Now, moissanite or CZ for fun jewellery, watches, earrings etc DOES seem like a perfect time to use those diamond-like stones!
Seriously though, a plain band is way less annoying to wear.
Why not get something expensive, yet valuable then?
If you have any gold, I'll take it off your hands.
Wastefulness as a status symbol is a really harmful idea. I'd prefer someone who is smart with money.
My opinion is that this is proof of irrational attachment..
And what fraction of newly engaged women are virgins? Just joking! :-)
That would make more sense today if it were possible to sell a diamond for anywhere near the purchase price.
> Lying is a great way to start a relationship.
It sounded to me like the advice was "show her the fake diamond, so that she can see that it's visually indistinguishable from a real one" rather than "present her the fake diamond as a real one".
OK, story time:
Way back, a friend of mine in High School wanted to give his girlfriend a ring just randomly (for no occasion), so he bought a cheap one, like $10. So he's going to wrap it as a gift at home, and he needs a box. Asks his big sister, and he gets an unused proper ring box from a local jewellery store. Wraps gift, puts in girlfriend's mailbox as cute surprise, and when she opens it of course it's too small. So girlfriend takes box and ring to the jewellery store named on the box, and asks to swap it for one that fits. And the shop assistant doesn't spot it's a $10 ring, so girlfriend gets a nice silver/zirconium ring that fits, costing like $150. The day after she tells boyfriend she had to go to the store and swap it. After a few minutes he realises what's happened, but of course keeps very quiet to her about the true story, and enjoys his status as the super romantic/affectionate guy.
First and foremost, it's a proof of social status between her and her peers, so you need to know who her friends are. But there are so many factors to weigh in. Someone I know got a sapphire ring to propose to his girlfriend, and she commented about how she was glad that he remembered that she hated diamonds. A couple I know have silver wedding bands which were made by an artist that they both know. The rings are unique and special—and this is important—in a way that they can brag about. They don't brag about it, but they could, if they were that kind of people.
However, if you are unable to express your concerns about diamonds without worrying that she'll think you love her less, then you are NOT ready to propose. Consider premarital counseling—which is something you do to get ready for marriage, not something you do because you have problems.
You say it's not a sign of a lack of maturity, but it sounds exactly like a lack of maturity to me (an inability to communicate honestly with someone who you want to spend the rest of your life with about really basic stuff).
e.g.
Her: So you want a new MacBook Pro, but you can't afford a $3000 engagement ring?
Me: No, I need a MacBook Pro for work.
This has been going on for quite some time now.
oh also don't listen to advice on the internet.
Also, don't do this.
if used correctly, a 3k MBP is a netgain
(¹) of course some children are still a net loss, but other investments fail too so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Shouldn't get married.
The divorce statistics say something else.
The diamond just sits on her finger for bragging rights.
I would recommend you to read the book How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World. Not because of your question regarding the diamond ring but generally.
Better discover the answer after 3 minutes rather than 3 years.
66% of marriages survive 10 years. The ring would cost 50c per day.
Buy the ring, and spend less of coffee.
To this day, no-one has asked my wife why she only has a [tungsten] wedding ring and no engagement ring. So that's 50c per day saved for better causes. And we have lots of good memories from the party.
Here, though, GP makes it sound like his SO wants a diamond ring.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2501480
I'm only saying that if your marriage lasts for 10 years, which about 66% of them do, it's weird to complain about the cost of a ring when there will be very many more expensive and equally bullshit things to spend or not spend on.
Other tip, her and I went ring shopping together, which really helped alleviate the pressure of trying to pick out something she'd enjoy wearing for many decades. She was still pleasantly surprised by the prosposal a couple months later, although she obviously knew it was in the cards at some point!
We had already had conversations about getting married, that sort of thing, so when it came to the ring it was easy to bring it up. I mentioned I was a little reluctant to go with a diamond; I said I was -willing-, but due to the intentional supply limit and the ensuing price hike, it would necessarily be small, as I was not willing to go into debt for it (which she was already in agreement we should never do; beware if your significant other has no issues with going into debt). Had she considered alternatives, such as moissanite?
I showed her some images and videos of moissanite, compared price, showed it was nearly as hard -and- glittered more (and that I could get her a 2+ carat stone for what ~.5 carat diamond of comparable color and clarity would cost, and that at < 1/10th what a 2 carat diamond of comparable color and clarity would cost), and she was convinced enough to go scope it out at a jeweler's that carried it.
I also mentioned the possibility of gemstones; there were plenty that were gorgeous and would be more distinctive than diamond, and set her apart from other women (who, after all, could only brag about the size of their diamond, rather than how it had special meaning to them). Etc.
At the jeweler's as she explored different stones, she ended up picking out an aquamarine that she really liked (and then found out that was my birthstone, locking in the decision even more).
Further, Wikipedia has this to say:
"The effectiveness of the process has been brought into question by organizations such as Global Witness, which pulled out of the scheme on 5 December 2011, claiming it has failed in its purpose and does not provide markets with assurance that the diamonds are not conflict diamonds."
Beyond that, this isn't just about how she feels about it. Everyone she knows, relatives, friends, is going to want to see the ring and hear the story. To all of them, a diamond is the gold standard and a cheap substitute will be an awkward counterfeit. Even if you convince her, you are signing her up to have the ultimate celebration of her, the once in a lifetime birthday party, turn into a lot of awkwardness and sympathy. Bad deal.
Ignore the cost. It's impolite to ask and moissanite is expensive enough. If what you do looks legitimate enough, no one need know. The critical key is that you sell this as better, representative of more thought, more effort, more investment on your part.
Focus on that you're doing something different. Something special. Design a custom ring that speaks to you about who she is. Focus on the ways in which the stone is superior to a diamond. It is unusually brilliant which reminds you of her. It is tougher, harder than what everyone else takes for granted. You mounted it with blue stones for her eyes.
Make it personal and in every possible way, about her and as much as possible tell a story that will make her friends wish someone that thoughtful cared about them enough to do something truly special rather than checking the expected box.
Charles and Colvard (the originators of lab grown moissanite) recently released a new generation known as Forever One and these cuts are currently the best on the market. They're brighter and have more sparkle than diamonds and are completely colourless. Essentially, they look better than any diamond money can buy and have the same properties in terms of hardness etc.
Despite all the advantages of moissanite (quality, price, ethics, environment etc), I knew a little part of her still wanted a real diamond on her finger (no matter how much she tried to pretend otherwise!).
My solution looked like this:
1. A 1 carat 6.5mm Forever One moissanite round centre stone (in a halo setting)
2. ~20 tiny, 0.3 carat real side diamonds (F colour, SI clarity - Note: these two metrics are much more important than the carat weight!)
3. 18K gold for the ring itself (bonus: the gold was recycled - feeble but worthwhile attempt to offset the environmental damage of the diamonds)
All told, it came in at under $1,500 (which, sadly, is ridiculously cheap these days for an engagement ring).
She loves it (and got her diamonds), we have more money to spend on other things and I'm happy I didn't lose too much cash and karma to the diamond cartels.
FYI, I did all of this online through https://www.moissaniteco.com. Highly recommend them!
I've never understood this argument. Aren't they worth what people are willing to pay?
I think the parent's argument is that not many people know about their price being inflated by a combination of artificial scarcity and hype.
Not many people think about this for any product, why should we expect them to think about it for diamonds?
Much lower for diamonds.
Yes, but only as a function of their scarcity. Diamonds aren't actually rare. They're only made rare by diamond companies hoarding them and releasing tiny numbers of stones in order to maintain a high price. You certainly wouldn't buy diamonds as an investment, just in case a diamond company dumped their stockpile on to the market and the price collapsed.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1982/02/have-you...
Our wedding ceremonies are also usually way cheaper and less show off that the ones your pop culture is selling to you, so I hope you are not actually doing it IRL cause that seems a terrible way to start a long term relationship, money wise.
But I guess we don't have such a marriage culture here anymore. People do marry, but we also now have something called the PACS, which is a very simple legal union with no bells and whistles that is pretty popular. And of course plenty of people living for ever without a label on their relationship.
"only" is a pretty exclusive word, but I don't think it's a stretch saying that only diamond rings are acceptable in the general case. Especially amongst the reasonably affluent class that you'll find a lot of on HN, not getting a diamond for a spouse would be unusual enough that friends would whisper behind your backs about it.
(And to be clear, I'm of the opinion that this is crazy.)
edit: Looks like I said something unpopular. Whoops!
At least in the nordics, I don't think there's a specific type of wedding (EDIT: or engagement) ring that you're expected to have, and I think many people have no stone of any kind embedded in theirs.
Tattoos are up and coming. My wife and I (both from good Christian homes) have a Moebius strip tattooed on the inside of our wrist, as wedding tattoo. My sister and her husband have a self-designed rune on their ring finger, and a heart-shaped celtic knot on their lower arm as engagement tattoo (and I think these are their only tattoos; they certainly are for my wife and I).
My wife and I did have engagement rings: titatium with gold. I lost mine before the wedding, though. I can't lose my tattoo.
De Beers clearly never had much influence here.
"In Europe, where diamond prices had collapsed during the Depression, there seemed little possibility of restoring public confidence in diamonds. In Germany, Austria, Italy, and Spain, the notion of giving a diamond ring to commemorate an engagement had never taken hold. In England and France, diamonds were still presumed to be jewels for aristocrats rather than the masses. Furthermore, Europe was on the verge of war, and there seemed little possibility of expanding diamond sales. This left the United States as the only real market for De Beers's diamonds. In fact, in 1938 some three quarters of all the cartel's diamonds were sold for engagement rings in the United States. Most of these stones, however, were smaller and of poorer quality than those bought in Europe, and had an average price of $80 apiece. Oppenheimer and the bankers believed that an advertising campaign could persuade Americans to buy more expensive diamonds."
I kinda have a weird idea that everyone should just be able to do their own thing without being judged. I certainly don't think they should be demonized as "show off" or "pop culture selling to you".
What I'm talking about are incredible expense like putting fresh flowers everywhere, renting a some fashionable place, spending thousands on rings, dress, make up artists, haircuts, etc.
You can absolutely have a great venue, look stunning and have fun with 100 people without getting in debt for 5 years. This is not what TV is selling you though.
Good point. German guy here. She got me a wooden engagement ring back then. Everyone loved it.
Just for info, diamonds and expensive marriage parties are the rule in Southern Italy as well. Northern Italy is similar to France, when you actually go to a marriage to enjoy yourself and not just to show your dress.
It shows how the concept of diamond engagement rings were completely invented by a specific ad campaign; first in America and now expanding to the rest of the world.
They were specifically trying to create social pressure to buy the most expensive ring possible; to reinforce the impression that a diamond ring demonstrated wealth and ability to take care of a spouse; and even set the three months salary purchase price target most people reference.
If there's ever been a greater con so openly and deliberately imposed on society, I can't think of one off the top my head.
It is like getting a luxury brand car or a watch or living in a certain part of town. All aren't practical.
When social pressure is already there, you are asking the female partner to break the norm which can be tough.
As far as I can tell they're only on the way out with bleeding-edge progressives.
A demographic known for their immunity to costly signalling behaviors.
Likewise, all the people who cry foul about the De Beers conspiracy are neglecting the fact that this does absolutely nothing to reduce their signal value. If I spend a large sum of money on something which I know to be worthless just to start my engagement, that's an even better commitment than spending a large sum of money on something which I think is worthless.
People who are anti-diamond should really focus on coming up with alternative signals which has better social outcomes. I would personally prefer some sort of trust, where if the engagement is successful the money is donated to our preferred charity—but if it's not, it's donated to a politician I despise.
If we're dead-set on continuing to use pretty rocks as signals, someone should establish a monopoly on a gem which is impossible to procure from exploiting conflicts. They should still make it extremely expensive, but have all the mining be ethical.
Why do we need signals? Why does the social contract of marriage need an expensive down payment on essentially nothing? These are things modern cultures should be distancing themselves from. The down payment should be for a house or apartment, or just anything useful.
Signals are an essential aspect of human behavior. I don't think trying to eliminate signaling is a productive goal.
You yourself brought up the "social contract" of marriage. A contract is not very powerful if there aren't consequences for breaking it. So that's one crucial signal: we are committed enough to this relationship to spend money on something which is only useful as a signal.
There's also the signals of "my mate is wealthy enough to buy me an expensive diamond" and "he cares enough about me to spend a large sum of money on something which has no useful purpose besides signaling his love for me." Simply wishing that these signals didn't exist won't make them go away.
Useful things make poor signals because you might buy them without any intention of signaling anything. That's why glasses are a worse signal than jewelry, even though they cost just as much: you might be spending money on glasses because you need to see, not because you have money to burn.
No, we try to make the case for the waste and stupidity, and when a group still can not come to terms with it, we shame them.
If something external, such as an expensive ring, is to keep the relationship afloat, I have hard time seeing a point of living and sharing your life with someone.
Why do you propose? Why do you say "I love you"? They are all signal.
http://thebtcring.com/
I'm anti diamond and your pleas to come up with another useless signal fall on deaf ears - this manufactured need for the signal itself is something we should be fighting as we progress.
For a start it's pretty damned sexist and regressive
I think the 'reason' is a rationalisation and not hard and fast, it's also culture-specific so hardly transcendent. That's why I take issue with the idea of replacing one signal with the other - the worth of tge signal is entirely subjective and the signal itself is rather out of place in the modern world.
I'm just pointing out that the basis of this signalling behaviour (if it is as described) is somewhat sexist and regressive - it makes assumptions about the man being the provider and the woman being kept.
Diamonds are indeed all about signalling. Enjoy yourself doing that. Some of us will be laughing at you behind your back for falling for the con though.
When you go to buy a ring they even ask you how much you make some of the time. It's not so much a signaling mechanism, as companies trying to bleed as much as you can possibly afford out of you.
Thats not true, diamonds can be manufactured reliably and efficiently in a laboratory as well. And its nearly impossible to tell the difference between natural and artificial ones. Only a very complicated lab test with a machine can tell the difference.
Article seems to be here, method in question was "Chemical Vapor Deposition": https://www.wired.com/2003/09/diamond/
The prices on these are still artificially inflated. I was told directly by the president of one of these synthetic companies that De Beers will move into large production in a few years For now, the other synthetics are just being allowed to exist as the cartel makes the transition provided they don't undercut too much and stay carefully in a few niches.
Diamond ring purchase is about status projection and having an "artificial" one screams low social status and is to be avoided at all cost.
I found that the hard/funny way while visiting Amsterdam and witnessing a woman choosing a diamond at bulk retailer.
When checking the beauty of the stone she clearly preferred the lab created one. Once informed that it was "artificial" and thus much cheaper she immediately changed her opinion stating that the "natural" one was much better and totally refusing the "artificial" one.
It's all about status.
Maybe they are overall superior now.
Got engaged prior to purchasing the engagement ring?
My wife and I have been happily married for ten years now. She loves her ring, and it has held up extremely well. (She just had the band resized, absolutely no issues with the stones.)
No one has ever thought it was anything other than a diamond ring, which includes several years of daily scrutiny from crazy New York City brides in her role as a bridal gown sales manager in a high-end atelier in Midtown Manhattan. Those who know about the stones think they're beautiful and love that there's a good alternative to diamond.
I stand by everything I said in this essay, and would 100% recommend moissanite to anyone who is (or will soon be) in the jewelry market.
Really looking forward to how jewelrs will use these now that moissanite is off patent and startups like the Diamond Foundry have interesting approaches as well. http://www.racked.com/2016/6/14/11872830/lab-grown-diamonds-...
After decades of glimpses into the practices of DeBeers, maybe now will be the time the public becomes fully aware
We'd been looking for used rings as an alternative - hence, thank you very much for writing this, you just saved me and my wife several thousand dollars.
I don't think this is a universal "in America" thing. Maybe in some parts of the country, but here in the northeast it seems like it's none of their business; I can't imagine asking someone to explain it, and I would think someone who did ask was being awfully nosy. FWIW my wife has a diamond ring which she almost never wears, and I can't remember anyone ever asking about it. My parents wear plain gold wedding bands only, and I've never heard anyone ask them about it either.
Sorry about Trump, BTW.
We're much happier with $20 disposable rings (both of us have lost one already); no fear of loss or damage and it gets the point across fine- hell, when I proposed to her I didn't even have a ring, we would have done it this way in the first place.
Interesting, I'm from Europe and I'd be curious to know at which point exactly did diamond rings replace gold wedding bands as the "official marriage signs" in the States. Wedding bands are still quite popular over here in Europe, hopefully they don't get replaced any time soon (for one thing, gold actually has some intrinsic value compared to diamonds).
They didn't. Wedding bands are still the "official marriage sign". Diamond engagement rings are extremely common, however, and it's very common for American women to continue wearing their engagement ring alongside their wedding band.
(As with my wife and my mother, it's definitely not unheard of for women to wear just the wedding band either).
The reason: stones can snag on clothing, rip an eyeball, snap off, attract violence, or scratch something you care about.
I went with my birthstone (Arizona Peridot, cheap and pretty) from my grandma for the engagement. My wife thought that was sweet. She keeps it in a drawer somewhere as a memento, and wears a plain gold band every day.
I suppose I might prefer titanium over gold, for weight reasons, but the gold is OK.
The engagement ring is fancy. The wedding band is plain. The wedding band is always worn. The engagement ring could be worn, but that is optional. My mom wore hers often enough that it and the wedding band ground each other away and eventually had to be soldered together. So you don't have to always keep the engagement ring in a box, but you might, and wearing it is totally optional. The wedding ring pretty much never comes off.
That's one thing out of that marriage that didn't cost me much... (Actually, it was a very amicable divorce; marrying someone who isn't a selfish person fixated on superficial stuff like diamond rings is, I think, a good way to make sure that if the marriage does have to end, that it'll be as painless a transition as possible.)
In Sweden at least it seems to be quite common to wear both rings. However it also seems to be more common to have inset stones, rather than one that sticks out. I've also seen several people who buy the engagement ring and wedding band together as a matching set to make sure they work together. (something which to me always felt rather presumptuous)
Good lord, people do this? People spend ten thousand dollars on a ring? Fuck. When we got engaged, we shopped together and I bought her a black opal ring. Diamond was never on the menu, so I never even looked at their prices. I knew diamonds were expensive, but I had no idea the extent to which people were getting suckered.
No, of course not - why would you think that? Those 'high priced' rings are like the wax fruit in a greengrocer, or plastic lobsters at the fishmongers - just there for show...!
Back in the real world, people can actually spend hundreds of thousands, even millions, on jewelry.
After researching, we figured out that we could sell our diamond (we only got about 60% of the original price back from a diamond broker) and buy a twice as large synthetic diamond and still save several thousand $.
There is only upside as far I can tell: it looks better (clarity), is bigger (no can tell the difference between a real and "fake" diamond), has fewer environmental and ethical externalities, and is cheaper.
Diamonds cannot be used, as there is no such thing as a new one. Certainly they can be damaged but that's totally different.
I figure if you buy something a billion years old and return it a few months later in exactly the same condition, if you can only get 60% back then you dramatically overpaid.
Thanks for writing. I did not want to buy a diamond :)
I really hate to be a random person on the internet giving personal advice but... diamonds being "non-negotiable" seems like a huge, glowing, neon warning sign. Don't be surprised to find out a bunch of other things are non-negotiable if you divorce.
There was no alternative before this article. Cubic is cheap and tacky. Diamonds are overpriced and awful. Lab diamonds not much better. This article has a real alternative. That's a huge contribution to all diamond haters everywhere.
It's just a little ridiculous to read 3 sentences a stranger types and tells them they are going to get a divorce. Bad form as far as unsolicited advice goes.
Hey why are you offended? I was trying to help! You could be gracious about it.
The guy apologized and maybe he thought his advice was good. I admit though it was blunt and the part about divorce was rude.
For one thing, I never said he would get divorced. I said "if you get divorced".
For another thing, if you are going to divulge details of your personal relationship online, you should not be surprised or get upset if someone comments about it. If it's a sensitive issue for you - keep it to yourself. This isn't your journal.
I take my apology back. I did absolutely nothing wrong, and people seriously need to develop thicker skin.
You should heed your own words...
What does this mean to you? Why isn't it true of silicon carbide?
I find it odd to see the simultaneous complaint that one clear cubic crystal is "cheap", but another is "overpriced". What do you want the price to be? Why?
With a diamond, you are not getting value (except in some rare circumstances involving unusual stones).
Why the fact it's cheap makes it tacky? There's plenty of good CZ jewelry and 99% of people won't know the difference with diamonds or moissanite if you don't tell them. Moassanite is good, but still way too much expensive than it should be. It would be fun if we chose homes same way - "Oh, that big house with large lot, fireplace, etc is perfect in every way for us, but it's 30 times cheaper than that another almost-the-same house that was built by the company which enslaves people and makes them die while building those houses. We will only have to be in mortgage for it for 1 year, so we won't buy it." Why don't use left over money to buy some trip or something like that? I don't understand why regular working people want to wear half a car on a finger...
That does sound better, spending the saved money on 4x$2000 amazing trips together, or 2x$4000 SUPER trips. Priceless memories that would easily be higher value than a nice rock.
You know, you don't need an engagement ring to get married. Much less one with a shiny stone of any kind.
You also need a partner who wants to get married to you. Where does HN get it's perfectly compatible partners from? A difference in opinion is not unexpected - not everyone is equally pragmatic. Also,things that are considered "deal-breakers" are far from universal.
Truth is women in our culture are still somewhat of a status symbol. My wife is essentially perfectly compatible with me that was achieved by not simply selecting the most physically attractive person who would marry me but instead finding someone who actually is a decent human being. Her ring cost under 50 dollars. She wants me to spend the short time we all have on earth with her, not working to buy her shiny rocks, a overvalued house or an expensive car so she can impress her friends. I wouldn't have it any other way.
My best friend is a tattoo artist. He said the top two coverups he does are for:
a. band names
b. significant other initials or names
He joked that its practically a harbinger of a failed relationship since most are back in his chair within 12-18 months to get them covered up.
There was always the alternative: I don't care about rings and diamonds and such BS, I care about us being together.
Which is not that uncommon (even in the US) as people here make it out to be. Not everybody goes for a big wedding either -- or even a wedding at all.
Also, as another commenter pointed out, "non negotiable" (as in: I want my diamond ring or we're not getting married") and "no alternative" (as in: we both want to buy the ring, and don't care for it being expensive, but there's no good replacement for a real diamond) is a different thing.
CZ is a bit less durable than diamond (8 vs 10 mohs hardness, some porosity), but it's so cheap that you can have the stone replaced if it starts to show signs of wear.
Moissanite is a very fine simulant, but to my mind, the main advantage over CZ is that it's more expensive. CZ is implausibly cheap for a high-quality diamond simulant.
It's deeply ingrained in Western culture. Think about it like eating dogs. There's no rational reason not to use dogs for meat, but most Westerners would throw a hissy fit rather than eat dog meat.
So don't assume the prospective bride is unreasonable. In fact, assume the opposite, as she was able to read a rational explanation of the issues with diamonds, and change her mind.
It's all nonsense. None of it makes sense.
Now I wonder if that Diamond is a chance event ("nonsense") or correlation artifact from the search algorithm ("sense").
[1]: http://philosophy.uchicago.edu/faculty/files/conant/costello...
On deeply nested comments, if it hasn't been long since the post was made you have to click the "permalink" ("XX minutes ago" or "XX hours ago") link to reply. I think the extra step is to help slow down flamewars ("do I really need to reply to this comment, right now?".
If this is the intention, it seems like it'd make more sense to throw up roadblocks to only someone else who's in the comment chain, rather than to someone who hasn't been involved at all and is just chiming in. Usually, those flamewars are long chains of comments between two people.
It's not tough, just very lean and thus prone to overcooking. Honestly it tasted pretty good, I thought it was grass fed beef.
Venison is a lot gamier. I only like it in stews.
> and they're not raised as livestock
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deer_farm#Deer_Farming_in_New_... -- not quite as many of them as sheep there, but you definitely see a bunch of deer farms just driving around.
In fact, in my experience you're more likely to see New Zealand venison in a US store than US venison, because of the above laws prohibiting transportation.
Yes there is, unless you would make the same argument for having sex with relatives - which philosophers have rationalized against for thousands of years (way before the genetic consequences were understood). Morality is a rationalization. Dogs are genetically predisposed to be man's best friend - friends don't get eaten.
Diamonds don't even come close, there is no positive moral argument - just a fairly recent PR campaign.
I take it you've never met a cow, horse, pig, chicken or tame deer. Most animals will befriend humans if you are patient enough.
It's only "deeply ingrained" in the US. In most of the Western Europe etc it's negligible.
And from what I've read it wasn't some deep rooted tradition in the US either -- it took a lot of advertising from diamond companies to instill it...
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/how...
I'm somewhat recently divorced now, but one good thing about my ex is that she was never superficial like this. She was perfectly happy to get a $70 Titanium wedding band, and loved how lightweight it was, and never wanted a silly gemstone on her hand. We did get her a couple other rings with gemstones (much cheaper ones, and prettier too; I think one was Tanzanite?), for wearing at special occasions, but wearing a gemstone ring every day is impractical and dumb really; it's just going to get in your way, and worse it's easy to take it off and then lose it. I knew a guy once whose wife dropped her $10k diamond ring down the drain while doing dishes! (No, they didn't recover it.)
Or may be, just may be, wanting diamond is just normal for some women, and it doesn't indicate whether she is a good couple or not.
if that's an US norm, so what, it's still wrong on many levels. it ain't like that here in europe. the last ex-gf that mentioned 3-salary rule for it was exactly the type you should never, ever marry, no matter what person you are. my fiancee on the other hand is happy with 70 euro ring since relationship is about everything else, but this.
if woman sets this as non-negotiable standard to get married, there is no love from her in relationship, just pure calculation and she treats her counterpart like an idiot. simple as that.
If I really want a sports car, I don't expect my fiance to buy it for me. If I want a cellphone, I don't expect my girlfriend to buy it for me and pay for the service.
uh... well, apparently it was negotiable, since all he had to do was find a suitable alternative and send her a link to a convincing article on the internet.
This is dependent on the relationship between the two people. If one party is strongly against the concept of diamonds and DeBeers, then yes, it'll be an issue. However, your parent commenter might be more moderate, or just doesn't care that much that their partner agrees with this particular societal pressure.
Did she say "I must have a diamond that costs a minimum of $15k, or else I'm leaving you"?
Or does she get kind of sad & blue & disengaged when he pitches alternatives, because she dreamed of a diamond ring as a kid?
The later is quite understandable. Even if you think diamonds are silly, it's a matter of fact women in the USA grow up surrounded by diamond culture.
This is a great description that captures the social pressure aspect quite well. Guys aren't the ones wearing the ring everywhere!
Agree grandparent comment truly made me understand the woman's side of thing. It's easy for men to dismiss them as being irrational.
I am glad that diamond engagements aren't a thing in India. (Although in place of it we have a ton of other retarded customs). Gold is pretty much the standard here - which is actually quite practical. It makes a good liquid asset, holds its value, stays as an insurance and safety during hard times.
I believe that the bride-only thing is US-only, or (maybe) limited maybe limited to ex-british regions, but it's definitely not universal, and definitely not a thing in latinamerica (diamonds aren't a thing here either) or a great deal of europe.
Usually the only jewel men wear is their wedding band.
I prefer this strength in women - as it is not an isolated feature of personality. Life is too short to spend it with someone that shallow, unless that is exactly what you want/need.
And yes, if it's not clear, women requesting diamond rings as statement of true love (that's just not true and won't make the relationship any better), or blabbing about 3-salary-worth of diamonds... meh, I say you can do better.
I have a 1ct moissanite and 2 3mm white sapphires in my ring, and the bonus was that custom designing my own ring was still _drastically_ cheaper than getting a diamond: http://i.imgur.com/H3jDulz.jpg
I think I can now (by that I mean in the future) justify this by not having diamonds. Yours looks amazing.
Funny you say that. My partner got a custom band of his own too (engraved and anodized titanium): https://i.imgur.com/c08efTs.jpg
The diamond ring he was "supposed" to get me (according to my family and friends and DeBeers) is easily over 10x the cost of my ring+band plus his band combined - even without comparison shopping. We spent that excess money on a 2 week honeymoon, most of our wedding expenses and splurges, and cat food. I recently just added the two white sapphires (a nod to our currently baking bun) for pocket change too. No regrets. I get my shiny bling-desires fulfilled at bargain bin prices.
I spent a total of $500 to have a .75ct diamond set in a ring this way.
http://blog.priceonomics.com/post/45768546804/diamonds-are-b...
- Lab-grown diamonds are purer, more perfect crystals, cheaper, and better than mined diamonds in every way. (ignoring the market manipulation factor, which I'm not too knowledgeable about, except that I've heard big diamond companies do some shady things to keep prices high)
- Girls hate lab-grown diamonds because they consider them "artificial".
Also in your article, you don't seem to make such a distinction, so I'm wondering if your article is about lab-grown, mined, or both?
My wife was perfectly happy in particular with the environmental and ethical benefits. Also doesn't hurt that you can get a larger diamond that looks much better.
Give your girl the benefit of the doubt.
FWIW, I agree that "science and the progress of human knowledge" isn't exactly the right symbolism for a wedding ring. But I do think it's better than "blood and oppression", at least given my personal views on marriage...
This is completely correct, although in the absence of De Beers mined diamonds would be cheaper. (Creating diamonds is technically quite difficult, but they are very common in nature.)
> Girls hate lab-grown diamonds because they consider them "artificial".
I can deny this. I collect synthetic cut gemstones. There are three types of common reactions:
1. "It looks fake."
2. "What are you going to do with it? What's the point?"
3. "Wow, it's beautiful!"
I've never seen someone who thought a gem was beautiful decide they'd been wrong after learning the stone was created. Girls might dislike synthetic diamonds in engagement rings because they think the symbolism is wrong; they don't dislike them in general.
> in your article, you don't seem to make such a distinction, so I'm wondering if your article is about lab-grown, mined, or both?
The OP is talking about lab-grown moissanite:
>> The big difference between moissanite and diamond is that moissanite can be manufactured reliably and efficiently in a laboratory. The result: flawless, brilliant gemstones at about 1/10th the cost of a comparable diamond.
After a while on HN you can figure which subjects they like, and which they don't. Diamond are yes subject. Another example could be Leonard Cohen. His recent departure has so much to do with technology or hacking as your toilet seat, but yet he was #1 for a long time...
[1] https://priceonomics.com/post/45768546804/diamonds-are-bulls...
I recently bought a ring from Diamond Foundry after reading this: http://qz.com/630512/would-you-propose-with-a-diamond-grown-... and related articles, and AFAICT no non-specialist can tell the difference.
There is also an interesting online company called My Trio Rings (http://www.mytriorings.com) that does conventionally mined diamonds but has, AFAICT, lower than average prices. I think one of their guys posts to HN sometimes.
Also, are other natural stones, e.g. sapphire, ruby, overpriced as well?
There's a spelling error in the article: lusterous -> lustrous.
You can hear how it's pronounced in this YouTube clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GFZKPQuAaw
Sol: No, it's a moissanite. Bad Boy Lincoln: A what-in-ite? Sol: A moissanite is an artificial diamond, Lincoln. It's Mickey Mouse, mate. Spurious. Not genuine. And it's worth... fuck-all.
:)
Then I saw Sol and Bad Boy Lincoln. I guess I'll watch Snatch tonight. For educational reasons.
But you're still buying into the concept of the gifting of rings, when this is a recent phenomenon created by De Beer's. Unless they were European royalty, your great-great-grandparents did not exchange rings. Commoners did not have this custom until the twentieth century. When you suggest getting non-diamond rings, you perpetuate the expectation that people should exchange rings, continuing De Beer's advertising campaign.
My wife and I got married without exchanging any rings for this reason. I thought that I might need to explain my position on rings to friends and family, but we've never gotten so much as a comment about it.
(BTW, your link to the Atlantic article 404s.)
It really depends on the culture. Having the groom give the bride something of value is a quite old tradition for Jewish weddings, including "commoners" (read: all Jews, pretty much). A ring was in fact a quite common such gift going back a long way.
That said, if a ring is used in this case it must traditionally be a plain band with no stones; we're not talking diamond rings here.
You can even post close-up pictures of the stone on Facebook and not a single person you know will ever be able to tell because, as noted by the article, the difference is indistinguishable to the human eye.
As long as both members of the couple find this acceptable, it would be silly not to at this point.
This is so foreign to me. Why do people care? It's just a way to signal wealth and really not much different than a bride price (a cultural practice that American expats are quick to criticize in an Asian culture, for reference). My girlfriend / future-wife and I will get matching steel rings or something similar, like my parents have. She's not American so she was thrilled by that idea. I already told her I won't wear it most of the time because rings are annoying, and again that was no problem at all.
I would run the other way if someone is resolute about buying a diamond, after everything that is known about the diamond industry. It means either that person is totally ignorant of the world around them, or doesn't care about making a positive impact with their lifestyle choices.
Incidentally, money and class are, in my experience, the most misunderstood aspect of the English class system by Americans. There is a loose correlation, but it's only very loose. It's quite common in the UK to have upper class families with hardly any money beyond inheritance, and conversely rich lower class families who might run their own businesses.
Interestingly, the upper class man wouldn't feel the slightest bit inferior for neglecting to buy a diamond ring for his fiancé unless doing so was the "done thing" by previous generations of his or her family, whereas the rich lower class man would be clamouring for the biggest one he could afford.
Generalizations, but so termed due to being generally true.
This article is a pretty interesting one on the topic!
This may be a great / bad idea depending on his/her preferences.
Several months ago, we landed on the marriage conversation, again. I reiterated that I am against diamond engagement bands. She then said: "What about a wedding ring then?" I told her it applies to wedding rings as well. We got into a heated argument and she eventually said: "Let's just not talk about it anymore." What? Let's not talk about marriage anymore because I am against diamond engagement wedding rings and wedding bands?
Umm...Okay!
TL;DR GF said she doesn't want to get married unless I show her how much I love her by getting a diamond wedding ring or engagement ring.
It's very easy to justify going the no-diamond route, sure. From a financial point of view, it's just a bad idea. Some say the finances aren't the point, so you can turn to ethical arguments (diamonds are bloody business). You can't really lose the no-diamond argument; it's too easy to make.
Still, it's awfully convenient for the guy to be the one making the argument against buying an expensive ring. This doesn't make the arguments wrong, but depending on the relationship, the girl might suspect that the guy is making those arguments, not out of financial responsibility or morality, but out of apathy or simply being cheap. The guy might be making sound arguments, but his ulterior motive might still be problematic, and the girl might be taking issue with that. Also, there is a whole lot of meaning (artificial, but real just the same) that goes into the rituals of marriage, and you can't just dismiss all of that with some textbook argument about diamond cartels.
The relationship isn't doomed in this case; the couple can grow past it, and it's an opportunity to understand each other. The problem is, if either the guy or the girl takes on the perspective of "I'm obviously right and you're wrong if you disagree," then they're being unreasonable and stalling out the relationship. Both parties need to be honest and understand the other to get past it. The discussion over the diamonds may in fact be very important because it gets to the heart of a bunch of concurrent issues.
(I'm using "guy" and "girl" here because that's the situation where these cultural norms are at play. Obviously any other combination of genders could have the same issues, though I suspect it's less common in those cases.)
Going with the nuts advice of spending a month's salary (or more!), yeah, that is awful, but, as I did, you can buy a diamond ring for less than < 1k (Canadian!). I'd have preferred not buy anything, but as you said, being reasonable in your relationship is about understanding what your partner values as well and try to reach a middle ground.
You are conflating moral values with financial value.
If it was about "expressed commitment" donating a significant sum of money to a charity would be equivalent to buying a diamond.
Now I wonder if that would float...
For example, the actual act of popping the question is an important part of the tradition, and it's inextricably linked to the ring. We all know how it goes: the guy and the girl are on some sort of date, the guy says something vague, he pulls out a small box and opens it, and the girl can see the ring inside. She knows what this means before he even says anything, and is already nodding her head (hopefully) before he asks, "Will you marry me?"
That's all very easy to follow. Now imagine the guy pulls out the keys to a house or something instead of the ring. She wouldn't realize what's happening until he actually asks the question, which is fine of course... but it's not the same tradition, and it might not have the same magic to it. Beyond the proposal itself, the ring is a physical difference that she will carry through to the next day, which will prompt excitement from her friends and coworkers and remind her of that moment.
And that's just one element of the whole tradition. I think it's very easy to see why one would value the diamond. I just said that the price was about expressed commitment. There's much more to the tradition than that.
A woman who's really an equal partner would rather see her husband do something useful with that money, such as make a down payment on a house.
The whole concept of spending 2 months' salary on a diamond ring is the product of the most successful marketing campaign in history, by the deBeers company back in the first half of the 20th century. It is not something steeped in tradition (or at least nothing that goes back that far, or is the product of anything besides corporate marketing). So someone who insists on a real diamond ring is merely a dumb stooge who's easily swayed by advertising if you think about it.
Second, the fact that the tradition is a modern one, that started with an advertising campaign, is basically irrelevant. As far as the woman is concerned, this is something that every other married girl she's ever known has received. It's perfectly natural to want hers too. If she's particularly financially minded or happens to be exceptionally grounded in this case, she might decide to reject the tradition, but it's hardly a marker of unintelligence to feel otherwise. I'm sure you hold many irrational preferences in your life, as do we all, and it's not any more fair to insult her for her wishes than it is to insult you for yours.
I find it interesting that you suggest a down payment on a house as an alternative to buying a diamond ring. First, you're presuming that the diamond ring is such a burden that it's getting in the way of the couple's other financial obligations (which may be the case, but also may not). But also, your suggestion proves just how subjective and emotional these things really are, because property ownership is yet another optional part of "the dream" that many might consider a needless extravagance, much like a diamond ring. Sure, it seems to have more utility (on the surface), but it's also far more expensive, and it will continue to become more expensive as time passes on. Property ownership is valued much more highly in some cultures than others, and the notion of saddling yourself with debt (a mortgage) for 30 years just for that privilege seems downright insane to some people.
Is this dehumanizing? Damn right it is. If you demand a dehumanized relationship, then of course it's dehumanizing. If you don't want to be dehumanized, then demand a relationship based on equality. I'm not going to treat a woman as an equal if she doesn't act like it, and instead demands to be treated as some kind of possession, which is the only reason there is to spend 3 month's salary on a stupid rock for her.
And yes, it absolutely IS a marker of unintelligence for her to not reject this idiotic tradition. What do you think of women who demand to have their or their daughters' genitals circumcized because of tradition? That's pretty stupid too. This is no different. Again, if you want to be treated as an intelligent person, then start acting like it. There is no rational basis for wanting a diamond ring worth 3 months' salary. And while I may not be perfect as far as rational preferences, I try damn hard to make sure I am rational and am not clinging onto stupid beliefs for no good reason. This also isn't to say that all traditions are stupid: for instance, I like the tradition of putting up a Christmas tree (which of course comes from Germanic pagan traditions). It looks nice, it's seasonal, it's fun putting up the ornaments with family, etc. And these days you can get artificial trees so you're not killing trees for the tradition (you can also get trees with intact root balls and then replant them after the holidays). But the important key here is cost versus benefit: holiday traditions are fun and a nice family practice, but they're also pretty cheap. Artificial trees and ornaments are not at all expensive these days, unless you're desperately poor.
Now, as for your comment about a ring being a burden, it damn well is a huge burden, for everyone. Did you forget the part about it having to be 3 months' salary? This isn't like a Christmas tree which is generally fixed-price, it scales to whatever your income is. Can you seriously afford to take 3 months of your salary, withdraw it as cash, and set it on fire? I don't know anyone who would do anything that stupid; if I'm going to lose 3 months' pay, I might as well just take a 3-month unpaid vacation instead of working my ass off for money when then gets wasted.
And no, a house downpayment is not a "needless extravagance"; that is an utterly stupid thing to claim. People need a place to live, and while you can debate things like rent vs. buy, real estate appreciation rates, and the current market conditions, in general, for middle-class people, home ownership in the US is a fairly stable store of value if you don't plan to move for a while, and owning your own home means you don't have to pay rent any more. If you don't like the mortgage example, change it to something else, like putting the money in the bank or a stable value fund in case you lose your job. Or into a good index fund, where it's most likely going to appreciate significantly over the years. There's plenty of places where you can invest 3 months' pay that are perfectly sensible and will give you a far better return than just lighting it on fire.
There are many things people "waste" money on, yet they don't deserve to be called sub-human or property. People pay thousands of dollars extra for luxury car models. People pay millions of dollars for art that they can't appreciate any more than a dollar store painting by Joe-painter. People pay hundreds of dollars for expensive meals that contribute to the suffering of animals. These are the extreme cases, but every human being that has expendable income will buy pointless things simply because they like them. Heck, weddings themselves are usually more expensive than the ring, and they're an even greater waste of money; at least you can sell the ring for something later on. People pay for memories and for experiences (which the ring also provides, by the way); compared to those things, which hold zero financial value long-term, overpriced gemstones are actually a relatively good investment. It's more like buying an overly huge TV than setting the money on fire.
Yet once again, even if they were the worst investment in the world, your pride in taking a dehumanizing stance is bothersome.
I don't know why you would think the woman is contributing nothing to the relationship. Why not assume the man is contributing nothing? Maybe the woman is the breadwinner and highly supportive while the man pursues some artistic dream that generates little income? Forget the finances; why can't a woman contribute mentally and emotionally to the relationship? I simply can't understand where your comments are coming from.
The most troubling part of the tradition is, of course, that the man is expected to do it. Except the woman is also expected to receive it. If you personally refuse to buy a ring, then you need to find a partner who agrees with your stance. But, even a woman who doesn't care that much might still be put into uncomfortable situations (by friends, family, etc.) by not having one. To her, the social inclusion might mean she would prefer to have one (plus, it looks nice). If your partner makes it clear to you that they value a ring, then there's no foul play; it's simply one more part of their complex personality. It's simply an emotional preference; intelligence doesn't come into it. You can choose whether that's a deal breaker for you. Personally, I'm happy to buy the ring, because I enjoy buying nice-looking things for other people, and the ring is one I'll get to appreciate every day I see it. Like having children or living in Hawaii, it's something that one person might value more than the other, and it's important that the couple come to an understanding before they commit to each other.
Your fixation on the 3-months salary is misguided. First off, that's a guideline, not a requirement (I've heard of few brides who count the pennies, and the ones that do make their values quite obvious). Second, I seriously can afford to spend 3 months of my salary on a luxury item. I understand and sympathize that not everyone is as comfortable a financial situation as I am, but just like every single purchase, how much of a "burden" it is to you depends entirely on your financial situation.
I completely agree. My fiancé and I are currently two engaged Americans, and we had a couple conversations about how we envision our wedding ceremony to happen. For the most part, we had very casual viewpoints on marriage (we don't need to make a big deal out of it), but she wanted a ring and I wasn't too hot on giving De Beers more money. She agreed with me, even admitted that it was a silly notion to have a diamond ring, but I can tell it's what she truly wanted.
At the end of the day, I decided to go with the diamond and she really loves it. If I had gotten my way, I would've gone with an alternative like moissanite or a synthetic, but we're both happy with the outcome.
It's good to see that Americans are starting to wake up about wedding culture, but I'm anticipating that it will take a few generations for most people to rid themselves of it. If I purchased an alternative gemstone for my fiancé, her parents would've been upset with me, but if my child wanted to get an alternative gemstone, I would praise them.
DeBeers only has a 40% market share now. ALROSA has about 40% and they're basically a Russian government company.
And that would be the right time to let them learn about blood diamonds or give them their much deserved shaming.
Don't worry, there's always another advertising campaign to push us something we won't need. Trust me. "If you can't afford to take a year off and travel with your future partner, then your relationship won't be able to sustain the trials of everyday life."
By doing so, you're ignoring her agency and her role in the problem. It's not like DeBeers has some kind of mind control laser pointed at the brains of every woman in the world. They put out advertising, and some people fall for it.
If you need to be angry about something, be angry about our education system which fails to teach people to think critically about what they see on their glowing god-screens.
> If you need to be angry about something, be angry about our education system which fails to teach people to think critically about what they see on their glowing god-screens.
I would cut the education system some slack here. Advertising isn't a physical constant - it's a dynamic, optimized product of other humans. Smart humans who weaponize psychological and sociological research to maximize the impact of marketing techniques. An individual doesn't stand much of a chance against it by the very virtue of how professional specialization works. Even if people all suddenly became perfect critical thinkers, advertising industry would focus on exploiting some other weak spots.
> By doing so, you're ignoring her agency
A tangent, but I'm increasingly believing that individuals have much less agency than it is generally believed. We all strongly respond to incentives, especially in areas that strongly matter to our lives.
Really, you've got to hand it to them. And I have to agree it's not a fault to be sensitive to the judgement of your peers.
Why not instead be with someone who you can reason?
... or at least that was the state of things last I looked into this in depth; my knowledge may well be dated.
For girls, it's not personal, it'd social. If her "friends" are such that they will look down on her if she didn't get a rock, she will insist on one. As a man, you must understand this.
That sounds fucking disastrous.
I haven't gone through this myself, but I've read that part of picking a great founder is finding someone you can talk through issues with, even if they're uncomfortable.
Not talking about something is a much bigger issue than disagreeing about something.
Yes. If we could let people relate their experience as customers without giving unwanted relationship advice that'd be great.
If you explain clearly your viewpoints on diamonds, where those viewpoints are rooted, and the partner doesn't agree even after understanding your viewpoint, then you should consider compromising.
This advice applies to everyone really, but especially to you as this incident is a signal that there might be some incompatibility in your values, which is a warning sign.
I'd say try and take this to the ultimate conclusion of resolving the topic amicably, without either side just giving in. Don't shut it down or put it off. A fight, or even a break up is better than carrying on as if it doesn't matter. This would be a good test of how things will go once you are married.
Also read some books on choosing a partner / comparability. I would say that this should be the highest priority thing for you so ditch any side projects, say NO to overtime and sort this one out. Good luck, and feel free to take this unsolicited advice with a pinch of salt :-)
I mean, seriously, a ring could be had for $3k. You're going to throw away a 5 year relationship with someone you'd like to be married to because you won't buy her something that costs the same as the new stupid MacBook? She's not worth the $3k to you? She's the one who should be having second thoughts.
And it's not selfish of her to demand spending tons of money 'just because'? Of course each case is individual, but the whole situation can be a signal for a bunch of bad things (bad with money; can't use logic; don't care about man's feelings; etc). Maybe it is right thing to do to cut losses now.
This is one of the most manipulative arguments I've heard from people. I can't put a price on what my wife or son are worth to me, yet, I'd not buy something just at any price because my wife or son want it. Thankfully I was in a position to talk to my wife and she just wanted something symbolic so we went with something for less than 1k. Another good argument to bring in this situation is to show you're willing to spend the money, just not on something like a diamond, offer perhaps take her to a ver nice vacation.
Engagement/wedding rings are status symbols. Most women feel this more strongly than men. When first engaged most women will want the ring to be noticed and be rather conspicuous about making it visible. Many of her friends and colleagues will comment on it and having a high value ring will be a point of pride.
It feels good to show off. By saying you don't want to pay for a diamond, she may feel that she will be missing out on all of the pride and status effects.
My own tactic for convincing my wife to accept a moissanite stoned ring was simple. Reframe it as the higher status option. The moissanite stones are higher quality and have more brilliance. Moissanite are "conflict-free" stones. We went ring shopping together and allowed her to choose rings/settings that she liked. I pointed out that some of the settings would be out of our price range even with a flawed diamond, but we could substitute a flawless moissanite and people would notice the improvement.
Ultimately if she still wants a diamond stone, it is her choice and it is her status symbol.