The reddit until very recently had no involvement from the Go team whatsoever. It was founded by uriel, which then added as mods some Go developers which then never posted there. The community was thriving without any involvment from the Go team at all.
More recently they decreed they owned the place. Nobody was asked. It just happened. They took over and proclaimed authority over it. They still were not involved much, so it was just a change in name.
But now they want to delete it??! A place they had nothing to do with whatsoever. Wow. What arrogance.
Exactly. I'm pissed of that they treat us Reddit users that way. If they don't want to use Reddit they can just fuck off somewhere else and let us be. We don't need them to "moderate" us.
I have a lot of respect for the Go team but they sure are bad at managing communities.
As I have stated elsewhere, the Go community is split into two factions, elites (Googlers) and others. Reddit is the only place where others and elites are treated the same, post for feedback on the google group, which has sucky UI and is terrible to use, and you get small comments because they are busy and the feedback isn't at all helpful. Contrast that with Reddit, as someone had pointed to me on HN, I posted a question about AJAX and Go, I got two answers, one in vanilla JS and one in JQuery. Had I asked that in the google groups, I'd likely have not been able to post because it would have been "too simple" or I'd have been shooed away to some obscure stack overflow link.
The community wants the subreddit, you can leave if you want. Just because one person screwed up doesn't mean that someone who rarely uses reddit wants to delete the subreddit WITHOUT asking the community. This is against the point of open source. Isn't Go open source?
As I replied to you Reddit, the subreddit's early history (that I just learned about) is why I no longer propose deleting it. I think we should just disassociate from it and make it unofficial again.
The title could have been better and I think they should just make unofficial and hand it over to other mods, but he's hardly the only one unhappy with the current subreddit, because of the level of comments there and the existing lack of moderation.
Brad in all likelihood wrote some of the code that served you this page and, unlike most of the denizens of reddit, he has written a lot of useful code, your insult is unwarranted.
> but he's hardly the only one unhappy with the current subreddit, because of the level of comments there and the existing lack of moderation.
It seems people forget that Reddit is a community focused on comedy. In the case of Go, if you want to tell a joke about Reddit not having generics, or poke fun at the people who tell jokes about Go not having generics, /r/golang is the place for that.
While that style of comedy may not be to everyone's tastes, there is clearly a market for it and Reddit is currently serving it. If you take away that comedic forum on Reddit, it is not going to go away, it is going to go somewhere else. Hopefully not to the mailing list or other places that serve as hosts of meaningful discussion, where the noise would be a huge detractor.
The CEO editing comments to point insults at pro-trump moderators is perfectly in line with what Reddit stands for. Playful and kind of funny, at least for for some definition of funny. I'm not sure what there is to gain from shutting that down? I wouldn't hold a serious discussion there, but I never would have at any point in time. That's not its purpose.
First, it reveals a very hostile attitude within Google toward the go community - a complete lack of empathy for what his actions will do to tens of thousands of developers who have adopted his team's product. Just by posting what he did he's damaged the subreddit, which is apparently his intention.
Second, it reinforces the impression that Google is very temperamental in support of their products and services. This is just another in a large stack of examples of why not to choose Google for your project or company.
Third, Brad, please go talk to your PR folks. This could easily be spun as "Google attacks Reddit in support of Trump forum", "Google abandons go community", or any number of other baitings. About the only thing they will like about it is that it was at least posted on Thanksgiving holiday, which means most people who could exploit it will not notice.
Last, there is a larger, more adult concept known as equity in behavior that Brad should try to adopt. Just because he has a personal ethical issue does not mean he gets to damage other people. It's one thing to say "my personal code does not permit me to continue here, how can I withdraw in the way that is least damaging to others" vs "I'm going to use my position of privilege to inflict as much harm on Reddit as I can, with no regard for damage to others".
I agree with @4ad. This is a team that really has no business doing community support.
>"my personal code does not permit me to continue here, how can I withdraw in the way that is least damaging to others" vs "I'm going to use my position of privilege to inflict as much harm on Reddit as I can, with no regard for damage to others" //
bradfitz expresses that he doesn't want to use Reddit anymore and that other mods may also not want to; that there are thus lots of possible moves - move to a reddit new reddit clone just for Golang, move to voat, etc.. It seems that if all the mods just abandon the sub without a continuation plan that the sub will be harmed more than if it's moved en bloc to a new site/forum?
It seems to me, approaching this situation fresh on HN with this story, that perhaps you're being coloured by other factors?
Thanks for this - I don't follow Go and until I read your post, I'd assumed that he was just a pissed off reddit user with no vested interest in Go outside his capacity as a moderator. The fact that he's a developer who is heavily involved in the product makes this a far bigger issue than I initially thought it was.
Announcing that he's stepping down as moderator as a result of this is his right and I'd completely support such a choice. Announcing that he's deleting his Reddit account and will no longer be involved in the Reddit community is a powerful statement given his position, and again, is a stance which I completely support whether I agree with him or not. Openly suggesting that other moderators also step down is perhaps a little OTT, but I still don't really have a major problem with it. If the Go team as a whole want to distance themselves from Reddit following this incident, that's understandable.
But if that's what they want to do, the way to do that is to recruit interested and active members of the subreddit to take over moderation duties. I'd go as far as to say that, with a community of 25,000 people, that is your duty as a moderator. Closing the subreddit completely shows a complete disregard for a significant proportion of your user population. Doing so on the ground of "unethical and immature" behaviour on the part of the CEO is more than a little hypocritical. Making your proposal on a separate platform so that those affected by your decision don't see it is unforgivable.
If you want to leave, fine. Taking your ball with you is just childish.
If Github were modifying our code or Google Groups were modifying our mailing list messages or SMTP content for their own amusement we wouldn't trust them for a platform either.
I don't think we should demand less of Reddit.
My proposal is no longer to delete it, but to just disassociate ourselves from it, making it unofficial like it used to be.
Honestly, if I had been opening thousands of issues on GitHub that called defunkt a pedophile, I would be wholly unsurprised if I got trolled back, and I certainly wouldn't expect unrelated organizations doing real code things to leave the platform in solidarity.
Not to say this was okay in any way, but certain subreddits are... pretty special places.
19 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 51.6 ms ] threadLet's see which thread survives.
The reddit until very recently had no involvement from the Go team whatsoever. It was founded by uriel, which then added as mods some Go developers which then never posted there. The community was thriving without any involvment from the Go team at all.
More recently they decreed they owned the place. Nobody was asked. It just happened. They took over and proclaimed authority over it. They still were not involved much, so it was just a change in name.
But now they want to delete it??! A place they had nothing to do with whatsoever. Wow. What arrogance.
I have a lot of respect for the Go team but they sure are bad at managing communities.
The community wants the subreddit, you can leave if you want. Just because one person screwed up doesn't mean that someone who rarely uses reddit wants to delete the subreddit WITHOUT asking the community. This is against the point of open source. Isn't Go open source?
As I replied to you Reddit, the subreddit's early history (that I just learned about) is why I no longer propose deleting it. I think we should just disassociate from it and make it unofficial again.
Brad in all likelihood wrote some of the code that served you this page and, unlike most of the denizens of reddit, he has written a lot of useful code, your insult is unwarranted.
It seems people forget that Reddit is a community focused on comedy. In the case of Go, if you want to tell a joke about Reddit not having generics, or poke fun at the people who tell jokes about Go not having generics, /r/golang is the place for that.
While that style of comedy may not be to everyone's tastes, there is clearly a market for it and Reddit is currently serving it. If you take away that comedic forum on Reddit, it is not going to go away, it is going to go somewhere else. Hopefully not to the mailing list or other places that serve as hosts of meaningful discussion, where the noise would be a huge detractor.
The CEO editing comments to point insults at pro-trump moderators is perfectly in line with what Reddit stands for. Playful and kind of funny, at least for for some definition of funny. I'm not sure what there is to gain from shutting that down? I wouldn't hold a serious discussion there, but I never would have at any point in time. That's not its purpose.
First, it reveals a very hostile attitude within Google toward the go community - a complete lack of empathy for what his actions will do to tens of thousands of developers who have adopted his team's product. Just by posting what he did he's damaged the subreddit, which is apparently his intention.
Second, it reinforces the impression that Google is very temperamental in support of their products and services. This is just another in a large stack of examples of why not to choose Google for your project or company.
Third, Brad, please go talk to your PR folks. This could easily be spun as "Google attacks Reddit in support of Trump forum", "Google abandons go community", or any number of other baitings. About the only thing they will like about it is that it was at least posted on Thanksgiving holiday, which means most people who could exploit it will not notice.
Last, there is a larger, more adult concept known as equity in behavior that Brad should try to adopt. Just because he has a personal ethical issue does not mean he gets to damage other people. It's one thing to say "my personal code does not permit me to continue here, how can I withdraw in the way that is least damaging to others" vs "I'm going to use my position of privilege to inflict as much harm on Reddit as I can, with no regard for damage to others".
I agree with @4ad. This is a team that really has no business doing community support.
What I read at https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!msg/golang-nuts/XoOhzUCl... just now seems quite inline with the former statement.
bradfitz expresses that he doesn't want to use Reddit anymore and that other mods may also not want to; that there are thus lots of possible moves - move to a reddit new reddit clone just for Golang, move to voat, etc.. It seems that if all the mods just abandon the sub without a continuation plan that the sub will be harmed more than if it's moved en bloc to a new site/forum?
It seems to me, approaching this situation fresh on HN with this story, that perhaps you're being coloured by other factors?
Announcing that he's stepping down as moderator as a result of this is his right and I'd completely support such a choice. Announcing that he's deleting his Reddit account and will no longer be involved in the Reddit community is a powerful statement given his position, and again, is a stance which I completely support whether I agree with him or not. Openly suggesting that other moderators also step down is perhaps a little OTT, but I still don't really have a major problem with it. If the Go team as a whole want to distance themselves from Reddit following this incident, that's understandable.
But if that's what they want to do, the way to do that is to recruit interested and active members of the subreddit to take over moderation duties. I'd go as far as to say that, with a community of 25,000 people, that is your duty as a moderator. Closing the subreddit completely shows a complete disregard for a significant proportion of your user population. Doing so on the ground of "unethical and immature" behaviour on the part of the CEO is more than a little hypocritical. Making your proposal on a separate platform so that those affected by your decision don't see it is unforgivable.
If you want to leave, fine. Taking your ball with you is just childish.
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/24/reddits-ceo-edited-comments-t...
That's not the point.
If Github were modifying our code or Google Groups were modifying our mailing list messages or SMTP content for their own amusement we wouldn't trust them for a platform either.
I don't think we should demand less of Reddit.
My proposal is no longer to delete it, but to just disassociate ourselves from it, making it unofficial like it used to be.
Not to say this was okay in any way, but certain subreddits are... pretty special places.