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Ask HN: Co-founder mom died, and his depression is effecting the business

11 points by icevalley ↗ HN
Hi guys,

We're a team of 3. One of the guys lost their mom earlier this year, and bouts of grief and depression have taken hold of him.

His productivity and work quality has nosedived. He's uncooperative, non-communicative, and is often absent.

I've tried to understand what he's going through, and I've talked about it with him. I've suggested he take some time off (which he doesn't want to do).

He's adamant he wants to continue, and he's seeking help from a counselor.

This has been going on for ~4 months, and it's really taken a toll on our business. The 3rd co-founder and I find it demotivating and frustrating when he disappears.

I feel as if the best thing for the business is to let go of him, but it's a shitty thing to do. Moreover – I feel as if his depression would worsen if he lost his place in the team.

I'm not an experienced manager.

Is there anybody on here who has successfully dealt with depressed employees/co-founders?

Edit: spelling

16 comments

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kafkaesq
Is there anybody on here who has successfully dealt with depressed employees/co-founders?

Yes, I know of one well-known company which gave one of its core team members an unlimited leave of absence (with a believable promise that they'd be welcome to come back any time in the next 2 years). The key aspect here is that this was a small-ish, (then) family-run company -- and in many ways, the team was like family, too. Also, this was well before the current hyper-accelerated "My startup's growth plan über alles" ethos that we have today -- so even aside from the family-run aspect, people at least did generally have some perspective on the human side of things (unlike today).

I feel as if the best thing for the business is to let go of him, but it's a shitty thing to do.

Absolutely. Definitely don't just fire the guy. (Aside from being a shitty thing to do -- I'm assuming it's abundantly clear already that there's a significant chance that could backfire in ways that could hurt the company far beyond the current loss of productivity).

But (absent an actual, forced leave of absence) it may be a good idea to ply him with a significant amount of paid leave (4+ months), with a suggestion that he put aside any idea of working full-time for quite a bit longer than that -- plus a statement that he's not only welcome, but very strongly encouraged to re-apply at any time after 6 (given that it's basically too complicated legally to outright promise someone a position will be available for them in the future, given the way business conditions usually go -- which I'm sure he can understand, in his current condition).

Things happen in life, and sometimes you just have to do the right thing.

supernormal
Define the separation between your personal and professional life clearly. It's not a shitty thing to do.

I don't have any recommendations for which action to take next. But do try to speak to him honestly and open up to each other as deeply as you can not only to find out what action you should take next, but to come to a decision together.

asimjalis
"The 3rd co-founder and I find it demotivating and frustrating when he disappears."

This seems like a bigger issue to me than the one in your subject.

His disappearance should not affect the validity of your vision and the validity of the opportunity.

If his disappearance is demotivating this is a sign that your motivation needs work.

If you fire him something else will replace him as the conditional hook that will trigger the demotivation.

You can fire him or keep him. But your reason should not be that his presence is demotivating.

Or rather if this is your reason you will find yourself demotivated anyway, regardless of what you do.

kohanz
Have you already had an open and honest discussion with him outlining the above? Presumably you have evidence of his decreased productivity so that it's not a subjective point of view. What is his response when you tell him that he's been absent and not productive when present? Maybe he doesn't want time off, but he needs to come up with a plan with you guys that has him returning to regular productivity.
help505
If you haven't already talked to him about this, I would take down this post. It seems very likely that he, or someone he knows, could read this and connect the dots.

At the very least, you should minimize information related to the time-frame and size of your team.

macmaharaja
I'm not an experienced manager or anyone to give advice thereof, but I have experienced what your co-founder is currently going through. Last Year in January, my father passed away and the next 8-9 months were miserable for me. Sleeplessness, anxiety and depression were almost feeding to each other and took a toll on me. I could hardly sleep for an hour at night for consecutive weeks and months at a time.

I would start getting palpitations followed by dangerously high blood pressure. Touch wood, nothing major happened to me and I'm back to normal life.

If you guys can cooperate with him and give him the time, I'm sure he will come back to leading a normal productive life.

Like someone suggested, give him an indefinite leave of absence and have him work with therapists and recover fully.

YuriNiyazov
I think that next time you talk to him, instead of "suggesting" that he take some time off, you have to clarify that it is not a suggestion, but a business partner request, and a "no" will not be looked upon kindly.
hluska
With the limited information we have available, this advice is, at best, extremely dangerous. We don't know:

- the cap table.

- the depressed founder's role in the company.

- the make up of the rest of the team.

- the articles of incorporation.

Without this information, there is no way that you can know if a hard sell, like you propose, will backfire.

Business decisions, particularly those involving major personal losses and ensuing mental illness, never happen in a vacuum. Advising a hard sell is extremely irresponsible.

pvaldes
Is his father still alive? Is the only son? How losing the mother had affected to the other members of the family? Who cares for the father currently?
brudgers
Grandpa Fred was my beloved's grandpa. In 1998, we were out in Iowa visiting the extended relatives on that side of the family and did a video interview life review...on video tape. Grandpa Fred was born in 1912. We asked him about his life. The first thing he said at age 86 was that his mother died when he was twelve and "after that there was no picnic". It had been 74 years. He'd buried a wife. And a son. And in his mind the death of his mother was the defining event in his life.

From a business standpoint, it's an unlucky break. From a personal standpoint it's a profound tragedy for your cofounder. If the business is viable this won't be the last encounter with bad luck. How this one is handled will set the company culture.

My random advice from the internet:

1. Google up "grieving process". You won't discover how to fix it because there ain't no fixing it. It might help you understand what your cofounder is going through and suggest constructive ways to help.

2. The tragedy effects all three of you. That's why there's demotivation and frustration. Group counseling might be a way to work through the current situation. Relationships are one the things that counseling strengthens.

3. Reframing your coworker's condition as grieving rather than depressed puts it in the right light. It acknowledges the proximate cause and places the sadness within a timeline. More importantly it recognizes that the condition is not pathological or a mental disorder. It's simply a healthy part of the human condition.

4. Suppose you and the other founder kick out the grieving cofounder. Afterwards, there's still just the two of you. It is nice to imagine that the business would be in the same shape that it's in now. But it won't be. It will have gone through the distraction and disruption of removing a founder. On top of the disruption and distraction that the death has already caused.

5. Ultimately the business decision is whether to lawyer up or to team up. I hate sports analogies, but here one would be managing a squad where someone has blown out an ACL. The person can usually return to full fitness but it takes time.

Good luck.

jaketay
You say that you want him to "take some time off" but then mention that he is "often absent". This to me signals a much greater issue. I think if you were to remove him from your team it would be a huge mistake. We are people, not machines. Sometimes we go through hard times. You need to build a company that supports it's people during these difficult times not abandon them in their time of need. Talk to him and let him know you are there to support him.
147
If I recall the story correctly, Alexis Ohanian of reddit's mother passed during the founding period. Perhaps you should try to reach out and see how they dealt with it.
epynonymous
sounds like the real reason is that someone's not pulling their weight. the question becomes, was this person pulling his/her weight before this family affair? i'm assuming this was a random, sudden change or was the mother sick, for example, during a long stretch and recently succumbed? what i'm guessing is that this was a long battle, the latter, and that he hasn't been himself for a long time. if you value his potential or previous contributions then put him on extended leave, even if he doesn't want to, and then deal with it by pushing harder or hiring people. if you're just using this recent development as a trigger then i think it's a bit more involved and you probably are regretful of having him in the first place, regardless of this most recent change or not, but perhaps dealing with some guilt due to the recent passing of his mother.
lh7
Consider having a continuity plan next time. Personal tragedy is not an uncommon occurrence.

> He's adamant he wants to continue, and he's seeking help from a counselor.

He's doing the right thing, both in seeking counsel and in wanting to continue. Taking time off is extremely unlikely to help him.

Grieving affects everyone differently.

Whether you are a start-up or an established small business, chances are the bulk of your value is in your management / founding team. That means the three of you, working together as a team.

> The 3rd co-founder and I find it demotivating and frustrating when he disappears.

That is your problem, not his.

> I feel as if the best thing for the business is to let go of him, but it's a shitty thing to do. Moreover – I feel as if his depression would worsen if he lost his place in the team.

Wrong priorities. If you're not looking after your team you're not looking after your company. Help the guy first and foremost.

Give him honest support, don't complain, take up the slack, man up and swallow the frustration. It may well be you going through a rough patch next time.

These things suck but it's part of life (and business).

endswapper
In my mind, the single best part of being a business owner/founder is freedom. That includes the freedom to be compassionate. That's what is required here.

Your startup is really insignificant compared to losing a loved one.

I'm interested to know what he said when you communicated to him that the two of you find him uncooperative and that you feel he is holding you and the project up.

This has the potential to make your team stronger. This a good example of an exception where this particular co-founder should come first over you, or the project.

I don't think it's unreasonable to put a timeframe around this, so you don't enable and he doesn't exploit the situation. I think that's closer to the 12 month mark than the 4 month mark.