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Ask HN: Dealing with depression and unemployment: what should I do?

19 points by cyorir ↗ HN
I have been trying to get my first full-time job for a little over a year now, to no avail. I would estimate that I've applied to 60-100 different companies in this time. The best I can get is a programming test or phone interview, followed by silence. I have the skills necessary for an entry-level job, but I guess that I lack the means of showing that to employers. You can see my resume here:

http://cyorir.com/resume.pdf

and my hackerrank profile here:

https://www.hackerrank.com/cyorir

I am self-taught in most topics (C++, Perl), but I also spent 3 years studying at Northwestern University (although I couldn't complete my degree - I was suffering from depression at the time, and I have spent the past year treating it).

Nevertheless, no company has yet seen sufficient value in me as a candidate to give me an offer. Incidentally, I've mostly applied to entry-level or low-level positions, both in the Denver area and out of state. So I am wondering if you have any advice for me. Should I try to keep looking for a full-time job, or should I try something else? Should I try looking for an internship, even though I'm no longer a student? Should I apply for re-admission to Northwestern, now that I have working medication for my depression, and try to finish my degree?

I just want a job, but to be honest I'm not sure what the path forward is anymore. Even though I now have treatment for my depression, it seems like it's only viewed as a liability by employers. I can try to explain it to employers or hide it from them. I've tried both, and it seems like neither works.

16 comments

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roschdal
Advice from random stranger on the Internet: complete your degree, learn some popular programming languages, then you will get a job.
zer00eyz
Go back to school!

Also start a side project/product. Make it something you want to use, throw it out there as open source.

tonyplee
Find a few job posts you really like: can be building website, frontend/backend, mobile app or C++ QT App - instead of just sending them resume. Convert those job post to a project you LOVE to do personally, try also make it part of class/school/open source project.

Spend a few weeks/months work on that. Publish it on github, show it on HN, ask for feedbacks, improve it and put that/them on your resume.

JamesBarney
I can try to explain it to employers or hide it from them. I've tried both, and it seems like neither works.

How does this come up? If you're bringing it up, I would stop.

My other advice is people looking for new technologies are more comfortable hiring people with little experience. There are lots of guys with 20 years of C++ and perl, but there's very little if any with 3 years of React, or Node. So pick a cool hip new technology and start building cool projects. Then show people your projects through hacker news Show HN.

You'll have a job fairly soon(I would be surprised if it took 6 month).

Also many people are mentioning go back to school. How close are you to finishing and how well did you do in school when you didn't have depression?

Broken_Hippo
Says he's spent the last year treating depression - it is the reason he couldn't finish the degree.

This is the sort of activity gap employers tend to ask about, especially if it is recent.

tjalfi
Here is my advice. First, decide whether you want to finish your degree or look for work. The opportunity cost of finishing your degree is much lower now, tuition rates will only increase, and it will open doors. Your department will have connections, there are on campus job fairs, alumni networks, etc. All else being equal, a candidate with a degree will be hired over a candidate without one. It's only another year so tough it out. 1. Networking is not optional. You should attend local users groups (https://www.meetup.com/North-Denver-Metro-C-Meetup/ and equivalents for other languages) and talk to people. Weak social connections are an excellent source of referrals. 2. Evaluate your skills in the context of the market. What technologies are popular? (http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends/q-denver-q-C%23-q-C++-q-Perl...) is one possible source of information. Fundamentals change slowly but programming languages and platforms wax and wane over time. 3. Your resume should be a single page. 4. Your home page should support your job search. Change it to a portfolio of your work, a redirect to your resume, or a redirect to your LinkedIn. 5. Your depression and personal life are none of your employer's business. 6. Resumes are not one size fits all. You should have different resumes for different industries.
throwaway_374
First of all as I'm going through the same thing (extended unemployment) I just wanted to say I can relate to everything you're going through. That anxiety after the interview, the sleepless nights after, the lows when you hit a rejection and the anger... and somehow your body just knows it's gone through trauma even though you try to mentally stay positive. You will get better at handling this rollercoaster of ups and downs after a few times.

The most important thing is to keep your physical and mental health in check. You are basically in survival mode and NEED to keep these in top form. Take vitamins, sleep well, try to run and exercise a few times a week - I find it kills the anxiety.

In terms of practical advice, you do have a valuable internship which is really good. Obvious question, but have you tried possibly getting in touch with your old team to see if they need someone? It's a huge company so they may be some opportunities. C++ development is seen as quite elitist, niche and scientific and my experience is they generally hesitate to take on people without degrees. Even fresh undergrads can be seen to be inexperienced and destructive to a codebase as it is complicated language as I'm sure you know.

If you really want to stick the path with C++ I'd say try to watch conference videos (cppcon) on YouTube to show your passion and enthusiasm and mention you're keeping up with industry trends. Separately, I would consider strongly looking at the demand in your area and tailoring your skills accordingly - pick up web based technologies. These are much easier for a C++ dev.

Lastly, I would not disregard other jobs around development (sys admin, app support, SRE) and then tailor your portfolio part time trying to break back into development, though going down this career track will mean you will need to be a lot more proactive in constantly switching roles to climb the ladder and possibly have to move to a bigger city. Though I agree with other comments regarding the opportunity cost of your degree at present - coupled with your internship it would be worth completing I feel. All the very best.

brudgers
There isn't really any one thing that you should do, other than take care of your health and you are doing that.

Going back to school and completing a degree makes some sense given the state of the job market. Going back to school would open up the possibility of internships because in the US, legitimate internships are always tied to academic programs. Also, universities have resources to help match students with jobs. On campus work is also a possibility or at least it was back when I was in school. Co-op is also another possibility.

I'd offer that returning to Northwestern is just one option. It is possible to apply other places if Chicago is not where you want to spend another year or so. It's a good school no doubt, but there are many others and it might be sensible to see if there is a program that emphasizes internship and co-op programs more than others.

I guess where I'm going is that working and school are not necessarily mutually exclusive and it might be possible to balance pursuit of both goals while easing into the world of work and building a career.

Since I find myself giving advice, I suppose one more piece doesn't make the pile that much bigger. Give yourself time to heal and transition to your adult life. It sounds like you're on a reasonable path.

Good luck.

automatwon
In what way is 'Senior Technical Intern' Senior? I wouldn't go as far as saying that's a red flag, but I'm a bit skeptical of that title. It's a negative signal to me that it's not, in fact, a senior role. Other people might not be so skeptical. In which case, they will have higher expectations. You wouldn't want this either because (1) your interviews will be based on these expectations and (2) you're applying for Junior roles. My opinion is that you should put quotes around "Senior Technical Intern" or drop the "Senior" modifier alltogether.

Also, I think you reduce the resume down to one page. The foreign language section is taking up too much vertical space.

4818
Advice from Holland: surround yourself with happy people, it works miracles (I'm happy 24/7, to the annoyance of many people). If you feel good all life will go better
jstewartmobile
My personal experience is that depression is not so much an illness as it is your brain telling you that something is not right with your present circumstances. When I took the pills, they were only treating the symptoms.

You will have to discover your own solution, but for what it's worth, here are three things that actually fixed MY depression:

1. Exercise. Not only will this improve your health--it will change the way people treat you. If you have any kind of physique at all in most places -- instant respect.

2. Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World." I think someone said that anger comes from results not meeting expectations. This book brought a lot of things into focus for me and made my expectations more harmonious with reality.

3. Pushing myself to do uncomfortable things for growth. I studied computer engineering because everyone said I was smart, and I liked computers. I had zero people skills. As self-therapy, I went into real estate. I figured sales would be a trial-by-fire for dealing with people. One of the better decisions I've made in my life! Getting a break from semi-autistic engineering types vastly improved my social skills, and having to deal with the general public further refined my expectations of reality.

Hope this helps!

jstewartmobile
P.S.> On a professional note, chasing buzzwords and credentials is a servile pursuit, and will probably put you at a bargaining disadvantage. The key thing is to provide value.

I know people without degrees who have provided value. People come to them, and pay them what they ask.

I also know people from MIT and Princeton who have not provided value, and they still have to toady-up and suck it like everyone else.

Rainymood
Having your programming skills first was a surprise to me. Usually it goes either: about, work, education skills or about, education, work, skills. I do not want to be mean here but why would you bring up your depression in a job interview? Imagine you are the interviewer and are looking for a qualified candidate. The guy seems like a good prospect and then suddenly drops the "I'm depressed" bomb. Huge red flag! It costs a lot of time and effort for a company to hire someone and a ticking time bomb is not a good investment.

Fix your depression, it's all in your head. It's not reality what matters, but our thoughts about it. Imagine you have no emotions or feelings whatsoever and you are just The Observer. See man kill another man? OK. Now if we put a moral/ethical framework on top of that we suddenly start to feel icky. Use this to your advantage and read up some Stoicism, my friend.

You can not change the past, so why spend so much mental energy agonizing over it?

Today is the first day of the rest of your life, go get it! ;)

Mz
If you can't get a programming job, then work on getting some other kind of job. Lower your sights in terms of money and prestige, raise the bar on good fit for your personal circumstances. So, consider something that is not full time or that has flexible hours or in some other way makes it easier on you to make it work.

Yes, if possible, return to school and complete your degree. Those credits aren't good forever, unless you lock them up in a degree. If you think you are depressed now, try going back to school and being told "You have to start over from scratch. We will not count any of your classes because they are too old."

Consider doing freelance work or developing a side project that you might be able to monetize. This does not necessarily have to be programming-based.

pryelluw
This is actually a marketing problem and not a technical one. You need to package yourself as a desireable hire. Sounds hard but isnt. It simply takes a little bit of time.

Ill help you if you are interested. Email in profile. No bs or strings. Im not selling you anything. Just helping a fellow dev. :)

Broken_Hippo
General advice from this random internet being:

Job markets are rough: I would actually recommend going back to school. It doesn't need to be the same school, and it doesn't even have to be full time (depending on your anxiety handling skills with the depression) Like others have said, I think you'll find more opportunities.

But this doesn't work as well if you don't actually want to go back to school. If this is the case, keep applying to different things. If you are mobile and can change cities, that might open up doors for you. In the meantime, any job you can get might help for now.

I would likely not bring it up in an initial interview unless it seems more explanation is necessary. I'd merely state the gap was due to a medical issue that required some healing time.