Ask HN: I’m being bullied at work. What do I do?
This is a throwaway account.
I’ve been in a new company for 2 months now. I’m a developer and I’m being bullied by my Product Owner. I’m a direct to an Agile Coach and on top of us is the CTO. This is a tech company with around 70 employees and we are in Europe. The PO is a female and I’m a male.
On my first week, me and the PO had a disagreement during a Scrum Grooming. It wasn’t a big deal for me but it must have been a big deal for her. Since then I’ve been constantly questioned, bullied and I’m sure she bad mouthes me to the upper management and other senior people. I also know that she accuses me of being sexist (I’m a feminist and a LGBT rights activist). This week she screamed at me.
I know this person is perceived as aggressive by the rest of the company but she seems well integrated and she has a lot of pull with upper management. My team members are aware of the situation but they obviously don’t want to get involved.
I don’t discuss the situation with anyone with fear of being accused of trying to win them to my side. I only want the situation to go away. I’m afraid of complaining to my Agile Coach and/or HR because I don’t want the person in question to be confronted otherwise I think it will only make things worse for me.
I’m on a 6 months contract and I’m afraid this person will make sure I don’t get a full employment offer. I’ve been doing very well with my programming tasks so I know that’s not an issue.
I like the company and the paycheck is great. I’ve never been in a situation like this before. I live in constant fear of upsetting her. What do I do?
64 comments
[ 3.3 ms ] story [ 118 ms ] threadThe H.R. Department Is NOT Where to Turn for Help With a Hostile Work Environment > https://toughnickel.com/business/Hostile-Work-Environment---...
I walked over the bully and told them to their face that I did not appreciate the way they were talking to me. That I will not accept or tolerate being treated the way they were attempting to treat me. I then wrote an email to their manager with what happened, copied the conversation that was had in chat and explained that we are adults and that behavior was not acceptable. Their manager had a talk with them and it hasn't happened again.
I was/am prepared to forward my communication to HR if the time comes where they try to bully again.
Recognise that she is empowered by the organisation and you are not. Therefore, in your position, you will generally have to comply with what she wishes even if you feel it is wrong.
If you want to tough it out, I have a plan for you. Firstly, accept that your 'zone of influence' within the organisation is small. There are things that you can control and things that you can't control, and in your current situation there is not much you can control. Psychologically, what you can do is to choose not to be bothered by what you can't control. In other words, you can choose to abide by the maxim "Happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you get."
Also, you say you are in fear. Remind yourself that it is no big deal if she is upset, if you need to leave the company it is ok. You have nothing to lose. Try to see the humour of her overreactions. Of course, do not try to provoke her, but do it out of prudence rather than fear.
Remember, although you do not have much control within the organisation, you do have control over finding another job if you decide to do that.
Another thing I would do is arrange a short meeting with your report where you concisely outline the issue and how it is challenging you. This can be very difficult to do without causing more harm to the situation but it will help you if you raise the issue early. Keep the meeting short, you do not want to take up your boss's time with drama.
There are two key points you should make in the meeting. One is that the situation is challenging for you. You can literally say "I am challenged by this situation." Framing the situation in this way emphasises that you see it as a problem for yourself, not for the organisation, not for your boss and not for your PO. The second key point is to briefly outline what you will do to address the challenge. Generally this will mean focusing on your programming duties, being polite to your PO and being careful not to be a cause of conflict or distraction. Raising these two points will show your boss that you are being proactive about performing well in your job and addressing the interpersonal challenges of the workplace.
In this meeting you do not want your boss to go away thinking he should take action, such as disciplinary action or getting HR involved. Trust me, this would never go well for you. Therefore you should be careful not to create the impression in your boss that you would like him to take any action, you can also explicitly state that you don't want him to take action.
The purpose is to simply raise the issue and show that you are taking it on and dealing with it constructively. It opens a dialog with your boss about it. If your boss is a good boss you should be able to talk to him about challenges you are facing and not be afraid of him judging you unfairly, this is fundamental to a healthy relationship with your boss. Beyond this, having opened the dialog may help you in the future. For example, if at the end of the six months there are certain complaints raised that you can trace back to badmouthing by your PO, you can confidently and politely point that out. If you had never raised the issue of bulling prior to that time then you will have no credibility at all. Further, if the bulling reaches a level that you can no longer tolerate, you can go into a meeting stating that you've decided you need to leave the company. If your work has been good up until that point and your boss knows you've being trying to do the right thing, he may be able to move you to another project within the company. At the very least he will understand what's gone on and your resignation will not seem abrupt. Keep in mind it is quite possible he has no power to move you to another project to keep you away from the PO.
Good luck. Trust your instincts. If working for four more months and not getting extended seems like a waste of time you need to make that calculation for yourself and do what's best for your c...
It was hard to find examples of things I'd consider bullying in your post. The only thing seemed to be being screamed at once, which I agree is unacceptable.
Everything else seemed explainable as you having had an early disagreement with someone senior to you that led them to initially question your competence, and perhaps assume you are arrogant; they're continuing to do that, perhaps also to people senior than both of you.
(You also mention something about how you can't be sexist because you're a feminist, which seems a weird thing to say. In my experience everyone's somewhat sexist, and the people you need to worry about the most are people who think they're immune to it.)
Switching to another team, talking to your Agile Coach, or even talking to the PO about it constructively all seem like decent ideas to me. But you could consider the possibility that you simply made a bad impression and haven't taken any concrete steps to improve your relationship with them, giving them the impression that you're uninterested in doing so.
I do consider the possibility that I made a bad impression. In fact I'm well aware that was a mistake and I tried to fix it by making up for it in any way possible. But it has been 2 months now and it's not getting better so I'm running out of ideas but I appreciate your perspective and I agree with you in part.
Thanks for your input.
Edit: From your perspective how can I solve it?
I would avoid this attitude. Assume there are areas where you can improve in this dimension. The fact that you're being defensive on this point here with us is not a good signal. It makes me think that maybe you are being defensive at work as well.
The correct response to this is, "I'll keep that in mind and look for ways to improve." There is zero room for making statements about how good you are on this point or any other, except through action. There is no way talking up your own qualities can help.
> Edit: From your perspective how can I solve it?
Personally, I'd go the direct conversation route. Schedule a one-on-one, say, "I've gotten the impression that our relationship doesn't have the professional trust I would like it to. I'd like to understand what I can do better." Take radical steps to demonstrate good faith. Never complain, never defend.
I was actually in this situation lately, but on the other side of the table. I had a person under my leadership who had been disgruntled and unsatisfied, and I had to go to them and basically say, I'm sorry I've been a bad lead, but I want to repair this. We had a long conversation where I basically took responsibility for every bad thing that had happened, and pledged to improve. Since then, there's been a night and day improvement in our professional relationship.
If it were a peer, I might suggest something different, because bullying in this case might be a way for the peer to assert extra-organizational power over you. But this individual already has organizational power over you -- what you perceive as bullying is probably not about obtaining more power.
Or it could be a rare case where the other individual has some sort of sociopathic tendencies. In which case there is probably not much you can do. But nine times out of ten this is not the situation.
This! Use these words exactly! How she responds to this will show you what it's all about. Either she gives you concrete examples of what she thinks the problems are and how you two can solve them or she will continue as before. If it's the latter there's probably nothing that will make her change.
> Never complain, never defend.
And this! Even if you 100% in the right, complaining about person A to person B will have a significant chance of you losing face in the eyes of person B (exceptions: you either know person B extremely well (e.g. spouse) or person B has also experienced the faults of person A). Acting defensively will seem as if you're not willing to learn or see your own flaws.
You do not need to show any 'credentials'. It doesn't matter what things you 'belong to'. You don't need to cower in defence such accusations or 'prove that you're not' something. If in all your self-awareness, you know you're not sexist, well then - you're surely not. The accusations are unfair and baseless.
More extreme: imagine someone accuses you of being a pedophile - you don't react by saying 'how much you love children and would never do such a thing'. Heyzeus! Just act with firm integrity and dismiss the accusation outright and make sure it's known that the accusations are unfair and baseless.
At least not intentionally. You must still be aware that we all have subconscious biases which can sometimes make you act or say something that can be interpreted as sexist by another party. Maybe a female coworker feels that you are mansplaining things to her but not to your male coworkers?
Perhaps this is a nitpicking aside, but let me be clear -- I think there is no correlation at all between attending a feminist rally and not exhibiting general workplace sexism. The idea that attending a rally would make you immune to issues like unconscious biases, sexist condescension, assumptions about technical competence, talking over someone, etc is as ridiculous as the idea that attending an NBA game is a demonstration of proof that you are a competent basketball player. The fact that you even brought it up puts your entire understanding of this situation into doubt for me.
> Edit: From your perspective how can I solve it?
It's tough. You say you're being bullied at work, and if you are, then you have few options -- by definition, bullying involves an unreasonable abuser and an innocent victim. Most of the plausible and good outcomes in this case involve you finding a way to no longer work with this person.
But if you'd instead posted "Ask HN: My coworker screamed at me and told someone else I'd been sexist. What do I do?" then I'd be able to give a very different answer, probably starting with:
(a) I would assume that I had, in fact, done something sexist and upsetting.
(b) I'd ask the person who was upset with me if I could meet privately with them, and I'd tell them that I felt terrible about it; that I badly want to heal the working relationship; that I respect their work and want to put effort into not upsetting them again; that I don't understand what I did but that I understand that this doesn't mean that I didn't do anything, and so on.
Everyone has a bit of bias, that's not the same thing as being sexist.
I view sexism as an example of the extreme end of the spectrum of bias, not a label for the spectrum itself.
That is how society views the word too. An accusation of sexism is enough to terminate someone, refuse them career opportunities, and ostracize them from further friendship. Social acceptance is everything to many people, and making one a pariah would end their world.
Sexism isn't viewed as something 'everyone' has. It's viewed as something evil people have, and once branded with it, you will always be suspected of secretly holding it in your heart.
Can you elaborate on this? What was the disagreement?
I was pressured to do something during that meeting, I refused with the argument that it wouldn't benefit any of us and I explained why. The person kept asking. I kept refusing. It was uncomfortable.
I know I've handled that particular situation in a bad way. I could just have done it even if it meant trouble in the future but I took a stance out of professionalism. It was a mistake, no doubt.
This is a key realization.
Assuming you really want to stay at the company, you should speak directly to the PO if you can keep from being defensive/angry/frustrated.
To be specific, first talk to your direct supervisor/boss and explain that you would like to improve your relationship with the PO. You have to mean this, of course, but tell your supervisor that your only goal in talking to the PO is to make the relationship better and so ask your sup if it's ok that you chat with her and ask for any guidance on how to do that effectively (this is less about getting advice from the sup and more of a check in since s/he is responsible for you).
Assuming your supervisor buys into you chatting with her, then set up a time to chat with the PO. Specifically address where you think things went wrong, why they went wrong and propose how you think it can be better (use the argument you had, your role in it and how you should've handled it differently as an example of how you'll interact differently in the future). And then ask her how you can make it better. It might not be fair that the burden is all on you in this situation, but based on what you're saying about the PO's standing in the company it sounds like the burden is on you.
You absolutely can salvage this relationship assuming the PO is a reasonable person, but the key is the burden is on you to fix it. Talking to the PO won't magically make her a different person, but great working relationships can be founded on once-toxic situations. If the risk in talking to her is too great, listen to the many people who are saying stay quiet, do great work and find another gig.
That's a bit of a lesson learned in terms of "Things not to do in your first week".
Aside from criminal activity, I can't think of any situation where you were in a position to understand things better than the person asking you to do the task, and even if you where, where it would be a good idea to make such an immediate disagreement vocal and public.
You should probably test the mileage of making an apology for trying to assert yourself over a senior person (regardless of whether or not you are in fact correct) in your first week before you do anything, really. I have a funny feeling that it might go further than you think here.
Short of unethical business practices, a new contract employee really doesn't have organizational standing to say "no" to anything.
If you're a consultant and they're paying you for your breadth of experience, you can certainly advise a different path. And you can make a stay/go decision based on the organization's choice.
But as a contract employee, or any new employee, you have much less invested in the organization than the people you work with do. You are reasonably expected to defer to their judgement in organizational matters.
Over time that might change, but it doesn't always. In some companies, contractors are always second class citizens.
It sounds to me like your PO has specific expectations, and you flipped the "loyal and cooperative" bit in the wrong direction. She might be overreacting, or perceiving it as a challenge due to gender differences. It doesn't matter, even if you are ultimately proven correct, you need to be someone she can work with and trust, and right now you are not.
An apology might work. In my experience, nothing else will.
I think opening up to her about your worries and feelings can help you both move forward and make your work environment more friendly.
If you're too gentle, the other party might not understand that you have concerns, might not respect them as important, or might be able to pretend not to know about them.
If you're too emphatic, you risk exceeding the bounds of professionalism yourself.
Do stand up for yourself. Don't bully her.
1. Find a new Job then quit. This may sound like hard advice to take, but if you are in a position and you feel like the structure of the company creates an environment were a person being victimized has no recourse, do you really want to work there anyway? It's always hard to quit a job but finding a new job first will make it much easier, and it will be easier to find a new job now that you are currently employed and have experience. ( I've done this )
2. Find a new job and then talk to HR. If HR does not act to stop the harassment then you can threaten to quit. If you come under retaliation then you can quit. Be sure you have an actual job offer before you threaten to quit, employers will often taken you up on that threat.
3. Talk to the person in a personal way. Explain that you want to be friends and explain how their actions are negatively impacting you. I've found that many people play power dynamics games in an unconscious/impersonal way. They either don't know that they are doing anything to distress you or largely consider it "part of the game". In any case when rational people are faced with the consequences of their actions they often change their behavior.
Good luck and may God bless you.
What I did was kept my head down, performed the work without any personal, emotional investment and started looking for a new job. It took several months but it worked out for the better for me. I was so happy when it was time to submit my two weeks notice. I took three hours to craft my notice email. If you're good at what you do and your skill set is in demand, this may work for you.
Good luck.
There's no way to deal with the issue without making it 'you vs. her'. Even if they don't like her (and know she's a bitch), maybe she's too important to them at this point ... so you're going to be perceived as 'the problem'.
If she is as bad as you say she is, surely other people will take note of that, you may want to hand in your resignation and inform upper management of the reasons why. And then move on.
I wish you well.
Right now - you're new - you're kind of outside the game. You're almost an 'observer'.
But once you are trapped in that - you'll either have to assume the position of 'trained animal' - or you'll face serious wrath.
To appease her at the beginning, you might feign meekness - but this will consume your identity. It will start to affect your view of yourself, your skills, your role in life.
It's not fair, but that's power. If you feel that she is definitely valued by the company and can't/won't replace here, then there's not much chance you can win. It's going to be 'political' not 'judicious'. A startup that needs to make milestones is going to chose whoever is more valuable to them at that point and that's it.
I was in this situation once, the best thing I ever did was walk away, I was foolish to hang on for even the several weeks I did.
Anyhow, I don't want to seem so authoritative, obviously, it's a personal choice, but if you truly feel this person is bad and vindictive ... it could very well consume you. Surely you're a smart guy, find a place that works for you.
This sound counter-intuitive; but it work a lot of times.
The things is that most people fixate in that "the other" is wrong and "I'm right".
Probably is, but the other is thinking the same. If 2 persons fight, and one have the arm broken and the other have only a finger, you can' count that the one with the broken finger will be calm and rational and know is he that is hurting more. It have the broken finger, dammit, and you must pay!
This is one of the teachings of Jesus. You take a proactive attitude to diffuse a situation. If you are "more guilty" you do because you are, if your "are not more guilty" o worse, "totally innocent", you ALSO DO it because you have the moral high ground, and because is smart.
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I have be in situations like this, but worse. Even with actual death threats and display of weapons. Have never ever in a fight, and yet "win" all of it ;)
"Sorry, I think I have say something wrong, that was not my intention. I not feel good because this. I wanna to solve any misunderstanding that and that situation/words have caused. I appreciate the work here I like my coworkers very much, and think we can move forward. I appreciate your opinion on this. "
Or something like that. You get the idea.
Look, if the situation can be saved, a calm voice and be humble must work when the people in conflict are not that against you, and have enough decency.
If even acting like this not work, then you are more certain is better to get out.
P.D: Can be even better if you can bring another, neutral, person, and be very casual about this.
Summary - work place environment needs to improve for you. You can't live under fear, that will be the biggest hindrance in your progress. You need to freely express your opinions without getting screamed at. Its important to get your ideas out, that is how you learn if youre thinking in right direction. I have been in similar situation, avoid companies with this sort of a culture. They just want you to do the hard work.
Either she'll explain why she's a jerk, in which case you can ask her not to do that anymore, or she'll realize she'd been doing something she wasn't aware of and stop. If she feigns ignorance, then you switch from inquisitive to commanding: "Treating me like <X/Y/Z> is negatively impacting my ability to deliver work to the company/team. I need you to stop treating me like <X/Y/Z> in order to achieve our team's objectives. If you don't stop treating me like <X/Y/Z>, I will have to involve [her boss]." She may deny some or all of this, but it doesn't matter. You're not trying to argue, you're trying to make her aware so she can't feign ignorance to her superiors.
Make sure you record the conversation on your smartphone. I've gotten to the point where I record all of my time I spend in the office in order to protect me against claims of sexism because of how detrimental it can be to my career.
By structuring the conversation in terms of your work performance, you can help convince her, her superiors, and the court (if it comes to that) that she is in the wrong and that you're a victim. If you don't record it though, none of it matters.
Uhhmm ... well, I'm not sure this is the best approach, in my opinion.
1)
By framing the discussion as 'why do you do this to me'? It makes the assumption that 'she possibly did something wrong' etc. etc.. It's just a shade accusatory, and I'll bet $100 this person will assume as much.
2)
"Either she'll explain why she's a jerk, in which case you can ask her not to do that anymore, or she'll realize she'd been doing something she wasn't aware of and stop."
There's no chance of the former, and a very small chance of the latter.
If you're going to have a 1-on-1, I think it should probably avoid the specifics of the past (because it will just be something to argue over) - and say something like:
"Hey, Mary Sue, it seems we got off on the wrong foot here, I'm pretty new, I don't know how things work, why don't you help me figure out how we can work together and get things done"
1) By being a somewhat apologetic without admitting any wrongdoing ...
2) By avoiding 'things in the past' to nitpick ...
3) By assuming some humility about 'being new' and therefore maybe not knowing everything ...
4) By not making any reference to her 'doing anything wrong' or 'being wrong' ...
5) By being 'forward looking' and 'trying figure out ways to get stuff done' ...
She'll likely give you a piece of her mind with respect to what she expects in terms of working together. How she handles that might help you decide wether to stay or leave.
I don't know about your employer's policies. But my employer would definitely fire me if they found out I was doing this. I don't think this advice is generally applicable.
Resolution, and apology, are not the same as submission.
And you are the hostage negotiator
And that not preclude the swat team behind you ;)
----
If wanna a good perspective of this more martial oriented, take a look at "The Art of War":
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/3200649
"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."
-- Also, some ideas of
http://nononsenseselfdefense.com/negotiation.htm
Point to this.
While you would very well win the surface battle by shouting the loudest, you haven't won over the most important person: your opponent.
In situations like this, engaging in a pissing contest doesn't lead anywhere. When cornered, we (as in human beings in general) react by being defensive, arguing our own points even stronger in the face of facts stating otherwise. The most tactful way of moving the conversation forward is to win the other player over by letting them save face.
I noticed your comment's been flagged a lot and I'm wondering if you had meant to elaborate on your response and accidentally hit 'reply' too early? Maybe it would bring a better understanding to why you associate this type of response with submission.
I would not be afraid. I would have a direct, civil (but still with a "I'm not fucking around here" tone) and tell them you don't appreciate it. Have a list of examples, ideally with dates, you can point to.
If at the end of that conversation you feel things are not going to improve, I would immediately start A) looking for employment elsewhere and B) getting materials together to burn her. Will she get fired? From your story, probably not. Can you make her life and those above her painful for a while? Yes, and you should. Set that fire on your way out the door. From my stance, everyone impacted will deserve what's coming even if it's just some extra stress.
You'll be doing nothing wrong. It's a standard grievance that, at least in the states, is potentially legally actionable. Even if a company has the money and lawyers to deal with EO complaints and alike, they do not want to deal with that! And, again in the US, they put themselves in another potentially actionable place by communicating with potential future employers.
As long as your complaints are valid, what do you have to worry about? Just tell prospective employers that you gave the position 6 months but wasn't happy there and are looking for opportunities to continue learning.
It's surely not worth the expense (money, time, energy) but at least you'll have the satisfaction of knowing you made a number of people scramble and she will now have a scrutinizing eye on her.
This job is just a stepping stone to somewhere better.
I want to tell you a quick, true story. In my high school Geography class (or Social Studies, or something), our teacher told us that the USA was the 2nd largest land mass country and my friend knew USA was 3rd and Canada was 2nd.
Sure enough, we looked it up in the new almanac (This as back before Bing was a thing) and Canada has annexed some land and we proved the teacher wrong.
We went to the history teacher and showed him the facts. He said he didn't care, he'd mark us wrong if we didn't answer the question like he taught us.
We went to the guidance counselor for "guidance." He recommended we write down what the teacher said to get a better grade and avoid conflict.
So, my friend and I, we wrote down Canada for the 2nd largest country, and we got it marked wrong.
And we dropped it after that.
Pretty stupid story huh? Doesn't matter now.
Whatever you argued with this Product Owner about, you need to go and apologize to her, and tell her you're sorry you weren't supportive, and that you want to help make her product great, and can you wipe the slate clean.
If you can't do that, quit and go work somewhere else.
This is not a place that needs to adapt to you and your opinions. You either help the company and the organization, or they get rid of you.
I mean this with love, and with gentle guidance: You are not a snowflake. Maybe they're sexist bigots, or maybe you're just a jerk.
I don't know.
But if they don't like you, you won't work there long. It doesn't matter how good your code is.
So find a way to become liked, or go work somewhere else. And when you get there, don't attract conflict or disagree rudely. Find a way to be liked and make your perception be one of a helpful friendly approachable person.
The trick is to maintain their illusion that they are in control.
So instead of saying: "It would be unwise to implement this feature because of X"
you could say: "I'm wondering if X could stop us from implementing this feature efficiently, what do you think?"
(what do you think = I am relegating control to you)
Stay clear of personal statements as much as possible but if it's unavoidable, think of "leaving them an open door"
Say your PO ate your lunch (for god knows what reason),
you would not say: "Why did you eat my lunch?",
you would say: "It might have been an accident but did you eat my lunch?"
(It might have been an accident = I'm giving you a ready-made excuse that you can use so that you can still feel in control about stuff)
It is important to have you "open door" at the begining of the statement for maximum effectiveness.
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Business-wise though, the typical steps is
- try and fix it one on one (use the open door trick): "It might be just me but did you notice work tensions between us, if so how can we fix this..."
- if this fails, go to HR but don't talk badly about anyone, you need to use the "ask for advice" approach.
- if this fails, start sending your cv to other jobs