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Ask HN: Is it possible to make $200K/year base salary?

43 points by bsvalley ↗ HN
Are there any companies, fields or specific areas related to software development that offer +200K base salary per year? I don't care about stocks or bonuses... let's say this is for 8-10y of experience.

Example: Netflix (+200k/y base salary with no extra)

94 comments

[ 4.2 ms ] story [ 136 ms ] thread
techjuice
Yes, big federal government contractors offer this if you meet the requirements for the job as a base salary, actually have the required work experience and are in the top 25% of the talent pool.

Though, at that level it is extremely competitive, and you will be working on solving some extremely challenging problems that you would never encounter outside the government contracting industry.

You can also work for high end service agencies, or startups, or if you want to make way more then that financial institutions would be a good start. Though note, the pace is very fast in many of those companies and the hours may not be worth the large sums of money you will get paid for putting them in if you cannot handle stress very well.

prodtorok
I think you hype up the federal space a bit. I know many people in this space making 150-200k+ and it really isn't that competitive (Have a clearance, do good work, maneuver around politics)
itamarst
There are some industries, probably (hedge funds, as the other comment says). But a lot of variation is regional: you'll get paid way more in Silicon Valley or San Francisco than anywhere else.

The problem is that housing so much expensive there that it's not clear it's actually worth it.

To put it another way, salary isn't the important thing. It's salary minus expenses, adjusted for local cost of living (really just another form of expenses). While maximizing income is good, cutting your expenses is far more useful (and easier) once your income is high enough: https://codewithoutrules.com/2016/08/08/living-below-your-me...

spoiledtechie
You can hit 165k as a tech lead or software lead in DC area for the private companies.
gizmo
I'm not sure why you wouldn't care about stocks or bonuses, but 200k base salary is entirely possible at Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Oracle, most hedge funds, and so on. 200k per year doesn't even put you in the 1%. 200k per year isn't even an infinite amount of money -- larger house and nicer car and poof it's gone.

Right now software engineers with AI and Deep Learning experience or Big Data experience are in demand and they can easily clear 200k.

Outside of the US a base salary of 200k less common, but still possible for senior software engineer type roles, or more commonly for CTO or Director of Engineering level roles.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2014/01/12/googl...

bsvalley
I've been there, there is not such things for an individual contributor unless you're an old employee (10 years at the same company).

I'm talking about +200K/y base salary, no stocks, bonuses etc.

frankchn
Google Staff Software Engineers make $200k+/year in base salary for a total compensation of $350k+ according to Glassdoor: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Staff-Software-Engin...

This is three promotions for a new grad software engineer to reach this level, but if you are good, it is reasonable to get 3 promotions in 9 years. I assume other companies pay comparably at this level of seniority.

bsvalley
Other companies, you mean FB or Microsoft? The rest, they don't.

Also, Staff engineer at google = at least 8 years working at google as an engineer (while being a rock star over there). What if you join google now with 10 years of exp? Would you make $200k base salary? Not sure...

frankchn
Well, I am sure Amazon, Dropbox, and many of the other large companies would too.

Also, I don't think it is unreasonable for someone with the equivalent experience of 8 or 9 years at Google to get hired as a Staff Software Engineer. Of course, this is ultimately dependent on how well you perform in your interviews and the hiring committee.

Anyway, if you only care about cash compensation rather than bonuses or stock, Netflix is where you want to go: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Netflix-Senior-Software-Eng.... Their compensation package is basically all cash, no stocks, no bonus or anything like that. Note that Netflix hires all software engineers as "Senior Software Engineers": https://jobs.netflix.com/jobs

gizmo
It's also possible if you're headhunted, or if you're part of an aquihire. 200k base means closer to 500k in total compensation (because all big tech companies offer bonuses and stock), so I don't really understand your focus on base salary. Why not compare offers by total compensation instead?

For every person earning 200k base there are many people earning 150k base. And with 150k base + bonus + stock you still end up with 250k in total compensation. We engineers got a good thing going here.

bsvalley
Of course... total comp is standard at 200k/year (at least here in the bay area). Same for a startups, you can own %2 of a startup with a 40 million valuation. The bank will ask for your monthly paychecks at the end of the day.
JamesVI
I have personally hired ICs at $200k base plus 10% bonus target plus RSUs.

Typically 10+ years experience and a some specific experience we felt was relevant to the team.

micahbright
"larger house and nicer car and poof it's gone."

I guess you could spend your money that way. $200k is considered affluent, at least around Texas. I imagine it's not really a lot if you live out on the west coast.

iplaw
$200k is far from affluent in Texas, unless you're in a small town in BFE. $200k is solidly middle class in Dallas.
dlp211
$200k/year is well above solidly middle class anywhere in the world including Vancouver, London, NYC, San Francisco, or any other place you could dream up. $200k/year being middle class is so incredibly out of touch of what it means to be solidly middle class.

This does not mean that you are jet setting around the world either or that you can quit your job tomorrow, but you are well on your way to Financial Independence/Retire Early, and probably a fat one at that.

iplaw
I think that you grossly overestimate what a $200k income actually gets you in terms of ability to aggregate wealth. If you're hoping to work until you're 65 and live off of a meager 401(k), then sure. Have at it. If you want an early and fat retirement, you'll need at least $300k salary. Large annual bonuses ($100k-$250k range) with a $200k salary would also be sufficient.

$200k salary alone is solidly middle class.

dlp211
This is absolutely nuts to me. At 200k you should be able to put away 80k+/yr if you are even semi-serious about FIRE. At that rate with a 7 percent return, adjusted for inflation, after 20 years you'd have 3.5MM in assets which would provide a safe withdraw rate of 140k/yr. This assumes that you make not a single dollar more adjusted for inflation than that 200k. 140k/yr is nearly 3x median income in America. This is solidly upper middle class and I would say quite affluent.

For posterity, if you did this for 30 years you'd have over $8MM and a SWR of over $320k/yr.

IdontRememberIt
A 7 percent return is impossible without investing in crazy ultra risky financial products. The only vehicule where everybody (especially people close to retirement or retired) is investing is real estate (which is also ultra risky). Please thanks the FED for that.
gizmo
How much the market returns varies wildly between decades, but 7% is what you will get on average through passive investing. You don't need to take big risks -- plain index funds will do. Millenials are unlikely to see the stock market drop by more than 40% during their lifetime.
throwaway2016a
I get 7% on several "robo-advisors" (financial advisors that use algorithms instead of people. It's not unheard of... not even uncommon.

As another posted mentioned, if you invest it is widely considered what you should have as a target for your average (some years better, some years worse)

dlp211
I challenge you to find a 20-year period that the S&P 500 did not return 7+% annualized returns AFI. There are some, but not many. I further challenge you to find a 30-year period where the S&P 500 did not return 7+% annualized returns AFI, there are even fewer. And the few that you will find are almost all between 6-7%.
iplaw
So let me get this right. This hypothetical includes a $200k salary. Once you consider Federal income tax, FICA, and State income tax, you're sitting $130k in CA and NY, $135k in OK, etc. You want to "put away" $80k/year.

Haha.

dlp211
That is literally if you do nothing to shield yourself from taxes AND you are single. Do you plan on being single your entire life? and never investing in any tax advantage accounts?, never tax loss harvesting?, never being semi-serious about FIRE? You are so out of touch it is beyond unreal. There are people that live and work in every single one of those locales on 1/3rd and less just fine.
iplaw
I have a CPA tax attorney who handles this for me. As I said in the other reply, I don't think that I am out of touch.

$200k isn't as much as people make it out to be. It's enough to not worry about monthly commitments, but it's not enough for much else. A new construction home in a middle class part of Dallas runs $700k, or $3300/month + another $13k in tax = $50k annually. Add your 5-Series for $500/month for another $6000. Plus insurance. Meh.

And as I said before, at $200k, you can utilize a 401(k).

micahbright
I make $110k per year. I pay, $15k in child support, and save $40k per year. Yes, you can easily save $80k per year on a $200k salary. It just depends on how you decide to spend your money.
iplaw
Don't get me wrong, I am all for FIRE, which is why I chose the career path that I have. I could have retired 3 years ago after brokering one lucrative patent deal and collecting my brokerage fee. But earning $200k will not get you there without living a miserable existence.
dlp211
This is another lie. I make $150k/yr and could retire in a decade (barring a black swan event) and I just started my career 2 years ago. I live in a luxury townhome that is less than a 15 minute commute by bike or car to work, a trader joe's that is literally around the corner, and more restaurants then I can count on my hands within a 5 minute walk. I want for nothing, drive a BMW 5 series, I have a second car that is an older Accord. And I do it with a wife and 2 kids and we vacation twice a year, and I'm probably in a top 5 COL areas. You have no idea what a miserable existence is and you have either always been privileged and never knew it, or you have forgotten what it means to live a miserable existence.
iplaw
Probably the latter, I've forgotten what it means to live a miserable existence. I grew up in a family of four with a combined income of $30k, which linearly grew over 15 years to $100k and plateaued while I was in high school. It wasn't miserable, but I was sheltered by my parents. Bills were stressful.

While I was in law school and my girlfriend was in medical school, we were pretty damn broke and racking up debt. That was miserable.

Fast forward. I start working, and she is a resident. We're making $200k combined and it's a struggle. Student loan debt allowed us to realize these salaries, but they also inhibit financial growth. Trust me, there were no luxurious purchases or apartments.

And then ... I brokered a deal that netted me 8-figures and paid off all debt, bought a house, etc. The end.

For others making $200k while paying off student loan debt, the struggle is real. You'd be able to considering focusing on retirement after 10, 15, or even 30 years of student loan repayment. But I figure that the LAST thing a person would want to do is willingly continue to divert large sum of income to future financial well being after so many years of pinching.

rgovind
Principal engineer in Linkedin, Google, FB etc?
bsvalley
Principal engineer is way over 10years of exp. Or these 10 years where spent at the same company.
crorella
At fb I earn slightly more than that before bonuses
bayfury
What % does bonus and stock add? Is base something like 80% of your total pay or 50% of total pay?
bsvalley
Is this base salary? What is your profile? 10 years of exp. at FB? Individual Contributor? Are you specialized in AI or something else?
madeofpalk
> Individual Contributor?

Would you mind explaining what this is? You've mentioned that twice in this thread and it's something I've never heard before.

mdouglass
It roughly means 'not a manager'
bsvalley
an individual Contributor is an employee who doesn't have any direct reports.
mwpmaybe
A manager-level employee.
bsvalley
the opposite. No one reports to that employee. (my previous message was confusing sorry).
mwpmaybe
No. An associate-level employee without any direct reports is just an employee. A manager- or director-level employee without any direct reports is an individual contributor. I wanted to clarify the distinction. If that's still confusing (for whomever), s/level/pay grade/g. Source: Former IC and Senior Manager at a Fortune 100-ish corp.
adamesque
An individual contributor is just someone who doesn't directly manage other people.

I think you're supposed to use it to refer to people who are evaluated by their own work output as opposed to measuring the output of a team (even though I think for senior engineers it's totally valid to evaluate whether they're boosting the team and nudging them towards better solutions).

madeofpalk
Isn't that just a 'regular employee'? Maybe I'm missing something here (or differences in work culture from US to AUS) but since when isn't everyone evaluated by their own work output?
harry8
Snowden was on this, iirc.
giancarlostoro
As some have said possibly government contracting, or maybe even the medical fields. There is definitely a lot of money to go around if you know where to look and what you're willing to do for it (I'm speaking legally of course). Government contracting may not be for everyone, it depends on the company and what they do if you'd like it or not. Before I got my current job I saw some companies that made things I had 0 interest being involved in. Bear in mind that you must be a US Citizen to do government contracting in the US. This gives you an advantage over others who don't have this privilege.
danial
AmaGooFaceSoftApple will pay senior developers in excess of 200k per year.

You can't ignore stocks because they will often cap your base salary and pay the rest in stocks. For example, a VP at one of these may have their annual compensation at $X,XXX,XXX per year but only receive $1XX,XXX in base salary. This is true for developers as well, but the ratio of base to total compensation is skewed more towards base compared to a VP.

Also note that there are some very distinguished engineers at these companies whose role isn't people or business manager who would receive as much as, and sometimes more than, a highly compensated VP.

bsvalley
Rarely, if you join as a senior engineer at AmaGooFaceSoftApple you won't make 200k base salary. This will be mostly stocks.
erubin
I'm not sure why you don't consider stock in a public company that you can immediately sell every monthly vesting period liquid.
nunez
Because you have to work for several years (4 at Google) before you can liquidate them completely (don't forget about taxes) and you have to rely on non-deterministic factors to keep that train going (stock refreshes, raises, promo bonuses, etc.)

Salary is much more straightforward, and more predictable.

shaftway
The large companies keep that gravy train rolling. If they don't do refreshes, people walk after their last vesting event.

The hot new thing is to do continuous vesting with annual refreshes. That way you're constantly accruing and the only time you can't exit is during company blackouts.

jandrewrogers
I know many people that are paid like this, most outside of Silicon Valley even, and the common factor is that they are exceptionally skilled and proven domain experts in their field. The specific field of software is less important.

Obviously market demand does influence the salary, but there are many fields in software development where top skill will command this wage. Generally though, you have to really love what you specialize in to develop the kind of skill and expertise that will earn you this salary, it is not something you do by rote.

bsvalley
What are those fields?
micahbright
It's been mentioned elsewhere, but machine learning combined with big data is here in a big way. If you are not at least aware of the value of these skills, you are way behind the curve.
late2part
Yes. Start broadly, then become broadly competent, then become specifically talented in a particular area. You want a niche that is big enough to be interesting (cassandra, biology machine learning) while not being so large that Universities are churning out thousands of specialists (java, oracle, mysql).
dustingetz
freelancing 125/hr * 36 hr/wk * 44wk = 198k
bsvalley
I agree, though, are you really booked 44 weeks in a row as a freelancer? Seems pretty rare.
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dustingetz
yes i am booked essentially whenever i want to be. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13302154 for my portfolio. I can't tell you if it's rare but I can tell you that the stated rate was within reach of twenty-something me back when the portfolio was not nearly as good and i didn't work at google or anywhere like that. higher rates require more free-time investment and better portfolio (obviously worth). I have a friend with a worse portfolio who writes Scala and is always booked though i dont know if he is making $125 yet.
lastofus
Finding 36 * 44 hours of work a year at that rate is non-trivial, not to mention the difference between 1099 taxes vs w2 taxes you pay as a salaried employee.
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sean_patel
Right. And the equal (if not more) amount of hours spent chasing leads, marketing (blogs, advertizing etc) accounting, to get the steady stream of work.
dustingetz
the difference is 7% iirc, its kind of negligible which is why i dont even know exactly what it is. Because the hourly rates ratchet at higher increments than 7%. If you want more money you go release a side project, give a talk about it and poof 20% raise on next project.
x0ner
Information security.
mbesto
Management Consulting focused in technology.
memmove33
I make that much: Senior Software Engineer at a startup (joined among the first 3 hires), Bay Area. About 6 years of experience.

200k$ base salary

50k$ performance bonus

1% ISOs (after considering dilutions. Company is ~1y post Series B)

bsvalley
That is pretty impressive I have to say...
memmove33
As a further data point, some people in my personal network of comparable experience and age are pulling 500-700k a year from Google/fb. That of course includes RSUs, but that's literally the total compensation they are able to translate into hard cash every single year.
bsvalley
Now I don't believe you :) 6 years of experience pulling $500k at google/fb? I've worked for these kind of companies, there is no such things. Unless you're one of these isolated rats who don't communicate to anyone. There are some at google but not a lot..
memmove33
Well, that's simply true. Two close acquaintances go like this:

- age: 29 base: ~150k, RSU package: 1.8M negotiated upon joining (4y vesting)

- age: 34 base: ~250k, RSU package: 3M, same terms

Both are very solid individual contributors, smartest guys in my personal network for sure.

It's really not hard to believe. Another acquaintance of mine works at a very big Hadoop startup here in the bay (guess name) as a product manager, and her total compensation is around 350k a year. It's not surprising to have a very solid engineer get some multiple of that.

bsvalley
what do you mean by 1.8M and 3M? if you get 150k RSU and $200/base salary per year, how do you end up with 1.8 million?
memmove33
Poor formatting (editing from mobile). $150k is base salary. $1.8M is the additional RSU grant with 4 year vesting schedule heavily negotiated prior to joining (in these examples, with a bidding war between google, fb and another very big company).

Also, I can personally testify how important negotiating the offer is. I routinely (every ~2y) interview to discover my market value and, from a position of power (e.g. "Well I'm happily employed at the moment so the incentive has to be good" or "I have a higher offer"), is very easy to negotiate additional stocks. I've been able to improve the offer by a good $100k yearly RSUs (!!) just by negotiating with HR. It also helps that I kind of like the process (I'm that weird person who gets thrilled by buying a new car and making a car salesman lose his patience by constantly asking a better offer and absolutely be ready to leave if it doesn't happen)

mailshanx
Would be great if you could impart some offer negotiation advise! I was once interviewing with the fruit company. The HR guy was very aggressive, and insisted that I reveal all details of my current comp before we proceed further. This was after I was referred by an employee and already had an conversation with the team lead. After I revealed my comp, he acted very surprised about how high it was, and about how difficult it would be for them to exceed it.

How do you respond when they insist on knowing your comp details?

fuzzy-logic
Step 1: you never reveal your comp data. At all. I will, and have, walked away from interviews when they ask this stuff and don't let up.
memmove33
As fuzzy-logic said, just don't reveal your total comp, and be willing to walk away from it for real (walking away from such juicy offers requires the most determination, so it's important you do it from a position of power, for example if you already have a good job, otherwise they have you by the balls).

The only case where it can be beneficial to disclose something about your compensation is if you have deferred compensation (e.g. stock options) that you want your potential new employer to somehow consider in the offer. In that case, sharing a copy of the grant is the easiest thing to do, and doesn't hurt much

mailshanx
I see. How does one then approach the topic of compensation, and determine if the two parties at at least in the same ballpark?

Do you postpone comp-talk until an offer is on the table? Or is it safe to assume that large companies generally have an extremely elastic range?

Do you think it's a good idea say something like "If you can offer $OBVIOUSLY_EXTREMELY_HIGH, i will immediately accept. For lesser offers, i will evaluate them on a case by case basis."

bsvalley
I don't believe it. 1.8M - 3M in RSU grant at google/FB? I have never heard of such a thing for an engineer. It's director level MINIMUM.
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memmove33
One last data point for you and then I'll stop, since you don't seem willing to believe me anyway.

Did you ever read Chaos Monkey? (https://www.amazon.com/Chaos-Monkeys-Obscene-Fortune-Failure...)

The author was a founder of a very little startup (3-men shop) and after 6 months tried to approach Facebook to be acquired, and Facebook told him: we don't want your technology, but since you have proven to be capable of building something exceptional, we want you to join (and you can throw away your product), and we'll offer you $2-3M (don't recall the exact number) in RSUs with a 4y vesting schedule, which he clearly accepted.

Now, those "acqui-hires" happen all the time among those big companies. Since the acquiring company is clearly not interested in the product but just in the talent, how is that different than getting in the door as a really solid individual contributor with terrific experience in getting stuff done (of course, your resume and interview skills need to reflect that, and also, probably even more importantly, your negotiation skills). You can choose to not believe me, but the answer is that there is no difference at all.

If you live in the valley, I can't believe you don't have an acquaintance who followed exactly the path of being individually "acqui-hired" as a talented individual contributor (but not being part of a real acquisition, mind you), which is exactly what happened to my two friends described above (no direct reports, purely technical gig). They are very very good in their fields and managed to sell themselves very well to the right teams inside those big companies.

mailshanx
I would be grateful to hear their story and learn from it. If you prefer to keep that private, can i email you (your profile doesn't have an email)?
bsvalley
Now that all make sense... The acqui-hire situation is another topic. Millions of dollars are spent when it comes to people acquisition. And indeed, companies are usually willing to get what they need no matter what. Any random software engineer with 10 years of exp can't get that in the valley by applying at Google. That would cost Google a lot of money... Plus, there's no real negotiation when you sent out your Resume asking them to hire you... they have full control. You might get a 10k sign-on bonus just by asking. That's it
oppositelock
My base salary was about 200k before I left Google a couple years ago. I was a Senior SWE, and have about 20 years of work experience.
truftruf
Make $140k/yr, be happy, and make a side project that brings in passive income. Build it up over 5 years until it makes $200k/yr reliably..now you're doing better than anyone who has to have a real job.
iplaw
You make this sound easy and guaranteed. Perhaps give a few examples of side projects that will generate $200k in ARR within 5 years?
truftruf
Five years of sustained effort is far from easy...

You could create mobile apps, informational web sites that generate Google traffic, niche SaaS services, a YouTube channel in a popular topic, sell physical goods on Amazon, open an Etsy store.

Ideas are the easy part, especially if you already have an expertise in some area. The hard part is the five years of building.

sean_patel
> Perhaps give a few examples of side projects that will generate $200k in ARR within 5 years?

Here => https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses?revenue=Over%20%2425...

If you read their individual stories, you will find that 8 or 9 out of 10 started as a side-project.

Here => https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses?revenue=Over%20%2425...

If you read their individual stories, you will find that 8 or 9 out of 10 started as a side-project.

Also not all are 200K. But like OP says, if you have a $140K job and not having to work your ass off like the $200K jobs expect you to, then you can make the extra $60K in a well thought out and executed side-project.

sean_patel
Why are people downvoting this? It may not be as easy as it sounds, at the same time, it's not as hard as everyone in comments below are making it out to be.

Full of profitable side-projects => https://www.indiehackers.com/

You need

1) Discipline

2) A side-project that solves a "pain point" or atleast alleviates some of the pain in "pain point", so you can monetize from day 1

3) Ship, and refine.

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throwaway_fruit
Throwaway account; work at a fruit stand in Cupertino. Base $200k, not including RSUs and bonuses.

$200k RSUs on signing, with the expectation of yearly top-ups. Not sure what the cash bonus will be, haven't been here long enough to find out.

zump
Great, another size comparison thread.
throwaway782
I'm on ~$192K USD in the UK, but I mostly do WFH.. If I was willing to commute every day, it could be more.

10 years experience. Cloud / Security background. Finance Infra job.

raincom
Yes, it is possible. When you are offered $200K base at FB, Apple, google, etc, expect that your bonus and RSU gonna add another $200K a year on top of your base.

Experience is necessary for that base, but not sufficient though. Have you built a good product? Are you a top notch engineer? Can you pass a facebook/google type interview? If yes, you can demand. In the worst case, you can get a fat RSU package, and a fat sign on bonus, even if you are offered $170K base.

nunez
Not possible, for the most part, as an IC. There are exceptions, though.

10000% possible in management, sales and executive positions.

That's my observation anyway. That's also the reason why I'm making the move into this territory.

melmoth
It's definitely possible in SF. I joined a mid-stage startup a year ago as an IC staff engineer type at a little over $200k base, plus bonus, plus RSU equity. I have significant management experience, but joined as an IC. Base would likely be even higher at a company like Google, LinkedIn, Facebook.
nunez
Your management experience makes a huge difference IMO. Also, SF salaries are inflated relative to other markets
acconrad
Should I be depressed by this thread or inspired? I may get a raise to $150k/yr and I thought that was doing well for the northeast, but this just makes me feel like I've made bad career choices to be in the workforce for 8 years with only this salary to show for it. I genuinely can't tell if I'm doing well for my age/experience/location or if I'm suckered into a job that isn't valuing me.