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Ask HN: What do you want from a coffee startup?

12 points by bleachedsleet ↗ HN
Coffee is a saturated market, but there's lots of room for innovation in the field. I've been involved in a coffee startup for about a year now and since joining the team I've come to realize there's a lot of potential, but not much in the way of innovative ideas. Coffee is one of the largest industries in the world right now and with that comes lots of problems, one of the biggest being it is a major contributor to human trafficking across the globe. Human rights violation aside, though: What does HN want from coffee?

46 comments

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dqv
I'd like "coffees from around the world". I don't mean the geographical location of the beans, but the way it's made. I've tried to order café con leche in the US many times and have only once ever gotten what I wanted: the milk or cream wasn't foamy, it was smooth (but still scalded).

Also, ceramic coffee cups with vibrant designs painted on them. Priced between $18-$22

herbst
I like my coffee fair (produced) and well roasted, which is really rare actually.

Its hard to give a more accurate answer without knowing what you do

bleachedsleet
I mean, that's a good answer regardless. Right now, we are in the midst of a pivot on what we actually do, but what we have been doing is subscription based coffee that is fair trade and probably one of the best roasts you've ever tasted: All our coffee's have cupping scores hovering around a 90. For comparison, Starbucks' best cupping scores are in the mid 80s, and most of their house blends they serve on demand are somewhere in the high 70s. Folgers is in the mid 50s. We're currently looking to get more into the tech side of things...without giving away any company information, we're looking into some innovative hardware (I know, "hardware is hard") that hasn't been done yet on the consumer side of things.
herbst
Hardware is probably even harder in coffee. There are many etablishes brands doing very well done machines/grinders/whatever. Still interesting niche with a huge market. So whatever you go for, good luck! And kudos on the good roasting, i really hoped you dont bring up Starbucks as perfect example (as i've seen people do) and you didnt :)
Eridrus
This reminded me of the ZPM espresso machine on Kickstarter, at the time it seemed like they had some reason to believe they could produce something, and there was demand for it, but like a lot on Kickstarter, they couldn't deliver.
jayajay
People seem to start drinking coffee with sugar and cream, and slowly wane to black (if at all). I did a Google search, and I couldn't find any progress on genetic modification of coffee to produce sweeter beans. Most of the research seems to be related to caffeine content, pesticide interaction, and quality. I am not a geneticist or a plant biologist, so if there's an obvious reason why sweetening might not be possible, I can't see it. I would imagine that an inherently sweet coffee bean might be able to infiltrate the entire coffee market. I wonder how much Starbucks spends on sugar and syrup? It would be interesting to hear your thoughts, since you have been in this market for a year now.

Edit: Does Sweet Coffee Exist? http://coffee.stackexchange.com/questions/2424/does-sweet-co...

According to this link, most people prefer sugar and cream. http://www.statisticbrain.com/coffee-drinking-statistics/

Cozumel
You seem to be contradicting yourself, on the one hand you say there's lots of room for innovation, then on the other you say have no innovative ideas!

Coffee really is a saturated market though and it's hard to see how you'd be able to break into it, for what it's worth I think maybe a 'beginners guide' to coffee could be a good starting point, there's so many different options, mocha, latte, espresso etc something explaining them would be good!

bleachedsleet
We do have concepts in play, but we're in the middle of pivoting the brand and I personally was just wondering what HN might be interested in seeing! :) A simplified coffee guide is a good idea and we will definitely keep that in mind.
aethos
Idea: Combine a dollar shave club subscription service with learning.

User gets a starterpack deal, which includes some beans and a nice mug and a french press or something. Then, you'd have a series of videos/tutorials teaching the user how to use the tools and how to make great coffee. There'd be a monthly subscription to refill the users coffee supply and provide new tools to make even better coffee. This goes on until the user has learned to make great coffee, at which point you can continue to supply them coffee beans.

Market it as easy for the user, and worthwhile because they get a new skill out of it.

The important point is proving the learning and the goods, that way you can retain users. Think Blue Apron, but they taught you how to cook and also sold you ingredients.

bbcbasic
Come to Australia. Cafe scene is very unique compared to other counties. Starbucks flopped for this reason. People want to hang out in hip cafes selling good coffee.
bleachedsleet
What makes it unique really? I can't really go a block in my current US city without running across some hipster independent coffee shop so I'm legitimately wondering what makes the scene in Australia unique in your opinion? It's something we would consider if the profit margin was worth it.
bbcbasic
I have to admit I haven't been to the U.S. for years so maybe it is the same.

Compared to the UK though - coffee tastes much better and there are more unique cafes and they are everywhere in Sydney. Every suburb has multiple hip, unique, cafes.

BugsJustFindMe
Every time someone raves to me that their mega-awesome-omg-you-have-to-try-this Third Wave coffee is the best coffee I'll ever try, I have to squint at them real hard and say "Your coffee tastes and smells exactly like less expensive coffee and you're too caught up in the pretention to realize it." Well, I don't say it out loud because then I'd lose friends, but I definitely think it at them.

If you want to expand the coffee market, popularize a US or EU coffee that is actually different instead of just magic wand "better". Open a bag of any ultra-fresh top brand lovingly picked and roasted by elves and unicorns American coffee and then open a bag of Sang Tao from Vietnam and stick your nose in both of them.

bleachedsleet
I used to feel the same way until I was recruited into the coffee business ;) Our coffee is most definitely not American but it's also not Vietnamize for the reason mentioned in the main post: trafficking. We have personal relationships with all the plantations we use to help ensure a direct trade product line. But in all honesty your first statement is exactly the kind of customer we want to target and further educate. If you were an average Joe content with Starbucks what do you think would make you switch to something new?
BugsJustFindMe
Sure, let's talk about average Joe content with Starbucks. Maybe the problem isn't that Joe just doesn't know any better. Maybe the problem is that Joe actually likes Starbucks coffee. I mean, people rag on Starbucks all day long, and I'm sure Starbucks cries all the way to the bank. If I were you trying to attract Joe, I'd think very specifically about the qualities of Starbucks coffee and being that but better. And if you can't fathom the idea of debasing yourself, I guess try to get out and find people who actually really like it and talk to them about it.

But let's talk about me for a moment. The idea that I (or Joe for that matter) just need to be educated to be brought over to the shining holy light is a bit perverse. I've been there and done that already. I've traveled the coffee world, from the US to Colombia to Morocco to Italy to Jamaica to Vietnam, and had coffee from dozens of people who "No really, this time we mean it" care about fondling every bean from dirt to drink and who think it makes an iota of difference outside of their dreams. Excepting the arabic coffee method, which I'm not talking about here, it just doesn't mean much. It makes fine coffee, sure, maybe, but it doesn't make memorable coffee. Only one coffee bean I've ever had was actually memorable. It sticks with me everywhere I go after hundreds of different coffees. When I go to a new country or city I go way out of my way to find it. Only one. And it's not because someone is best buddies with the farmer.

Now we can get back to Joe. Maybe what Joe likes about Starbucks coffee is that their preparations, for all of the hemming and hawing about how they ruin their beans or spoil the experience by self-professed coffee devotees, are actually memorable. If you want to target Joe, maybe start with a coffee that Joe and I don't have to already love. It's not my child, it's my drink.

mixedCase
> Only one coffee bean I've ever had was actually memorable. It sticks with me everywhere I go after hundreds of different coffees. When I go to a new country or city I go way out of my way to find it. Only one.

Oh come on, don't be a tease.

BugsJustFindMe
Sorry, I thought it was clear that it was Sang Tao, which I'd mentioned in my first post. Good luck finding it outside of a Vietnamese import shop. They have a numbered line that goes from 1-8 that gets progressively more expensive. But don't think that you have to get the 8. It's more expensive but not necessarily better. Personally I think you can do some really magical things with the 1. Opening the bag punches you in the back of the nose like you've just cut into a steaming hot chocolate lava cake. That's not an exaggeration.
dustinmr
Its on Amazon, like everything else. Will give it a shot.
BugsJustFindMe
In the US that's certainly true. I'm always amazed at how poor Amazon is in other countries.
somedangedname
> Only one coffee bean I've ever had was actually memorable.

C'mon bud, spill the beans!

BugsJustFindMe
Lol, nice one. Anyway, see my response to mixedCase.
dsr_
Three distinct phases:

1. I don't know what I like. Help me out? Make it easy to taste a lot of different coffees, grinds, preparation methods... and take notes on what I like.

2. I know what I like. Make it cheap and easy for me to get the 2-3 things I like consistently over a long time period.

3. I know what I like, but I'd like to try something new. Make recommendations for me and make it easy to try the recommendations.

Some people will go through all three phases, some are in phase 2 forever, some will cycle.

danpalmer
This isn't a fully formed idea by any means, but here's my experience with coffee:

Grinding at the time of use is the single best thing one can do to improve their coffee, and probably matters more than the brewing process, the equipment, the beans used, etc. Most people (in my experience) tend to buy pre-ground beans.

First thought is can you include a grinder in your subscription? A grinder is pretty expensive, so probably not, which means either some creative marketing to get people to buy one up-front, or maybe repositioning yourself as "you've bought a grinder/cafetiere/aeropress - now what?" sort of educational brand, and market in shops where equipment is sold?

Alternatively, the gifting market might be a good way to sell a grinder with a small subscription, people more willing to pay $80 up front for the grinder if they are paying for 6 months in advance.

dustinmr
I find the biggest way you can improve your coffee is to get out the kitchen scale and weigh it rather than using a scoop/spoon to measure it. That makes a much bigger difference than grinding.

I think there's lots of room for education to explain brewing methods. People know all about how to store and open and taste wine (for example), but coffee it's just a drip pot or Nespresso, which are both pretty subpar.

Eridrus
For espresso? Sure. For drip coffee? I don't buy it. I can taste variation in beans much more easily than the variation in my scoop size.
Broken_Hippo
Small variation isn't so bad if you are making coffee in a coffee pot.

I use a pour-over though. Over-filling a scoop with a single serving means you get quite a different flavor - stronger than intended. In the basket of the coffee pot, it is just a tiny bit more as it is spread out over 8-10 cups of coffee.

I have a burr grinder that automatically measures the beans out, however, so I get the same amount with the same grind each time (Unless I change settings).

Eridrus
To follow up on the grinder idea: is there a way to individually seal pre-ground coffee in a way that means it doesn't lose the aromatics or whatever it is it loses in the first 15 minutes? Maybe look into what coffee pods use to seal coffee? It might be Nitrogen sealed?
danpalmer
Individually sealed portions are much more expensive per-cup, and therefore nowhere near as accessible. Also sealed coffee is still not the same as freshly ground - it's a big step up from non-sealed, but not the same at all.
SyneRyder
What about the Hario Hand Grinder (MSS-1)? They're only $35 on Amazon, and I found it a great first step after instant coffee & the low quality grinder I'd bought at a chain cafe.
sjg007
You could sell a resealable bag with an air pump.
nom
Cheap, fair, well-tasting, customizable, unique.
yoz-y
I wonder what is the actual addressable market size. For example I know my needs are very well covered by Nespresso as my main requirements are fast brewing, easy manipulation, no washing necessary.

Maybe there would be a way to convert people like me (and I suppose we are in majority) to something fancier? I currently pay around 0.40€ per dose but I would be prepared to pay a bit more.

sammyo
Not long ago (historically speaking) one could get a cuppa joe for one thin dime. Not great, but usually drinkable. So with inflation the equivalent would be a quarter. A basic affordable cup of coffee could have a significant market.
kedean
Pre-made? If you're making your own coffee, using relatively cheap coffee, I'd calculate to about 11 cents per cup.

~$5 for a cheap rolly bag, those usually last me about 2 weeks at ~3 cups per day. Even if my estimates are terribly wrong, we're talking a couple cents difference.

If your problem is with coffee you buy at a shop, then I think the issue is that you're paying for the wages of the person making the coffee too, and those have certainly gone up more than the rate of inflation since coffee was a dime.

brudgers
Honestly and my addiction aside, I don't have coffee problems for pretty much the same reasons I don't have gasoline problems or electricity problems or water problems. There's a well developed industrial infrastructure that provides access to reasonable quality products and standardized machines to process it.

If there's one problem that I have, it's the problem that comes from coffee being a commodity: price. That's not always a good problem for a startup to try to solve.

Good luck.

ilaksh
I would like coffee beans, cream and other flavoring/supplies to be delivered to my door, then automatically stored and later specialized coffee prepared and served by a robotic barista every morning or on command. The robot barista can charge itself and then store itself in the closet when not needed.

If possible it could also clean the toilet, but that is not 100% a requirement.

lawpoop
I buy coffee beans in bulk, fair trade organic.

I keep it in the freezer, but even just a few weeks after opening, the flavor of the beans aren't like the zest of the original unsealing of the vacuum sealed bag.

I would like something like 1 oz sealed bags of beans that I can buy in bulk. Maybe even larger sizes. That way, every time I grind, I am getting that freshly-opened flavor.

Bonus: with smaller bags, you can sell sampler packs, flights, or varieties to people who are looking to sample your blends.

joeclark77
I've been drinking "bulletproof coffee" lately as part of a diet. Basically coffee with butter, coconut oil, and flavia. Supposedly gives me good fats and no sugar to serve as a mini-meal and help me keep a fast. The one thing about it is that it's tedious to prepare in the morning. Maybe that's a hint that there could a business selling "health" coffee drinks, coffee with supplements, etc. That's one thing I really haven't seen offered commercially.
Cozumel
Have you a recipe for that? It sounds disgustingly fascinating!
joeclark77
It's a branded thing from a guy who wrote a book called the Bulletproof Executive. He uses MCG oil instead of coconut oil. I heard about it from Ace of Spades's blog. Ace is on a diet called "intermittent fasting" and he writes about the coffee here: http://ace.mu.nu/archives/364949.php

I can't testify as to its magical properties, but it does help me get through several hours without breakfast and tastes great.

For me it's one large k-cup of coffee with:

1 tbsp unsalted butter

~1 tbsp coconut oil

1 packet Flavia sweetener

pinch of cinnamon

Get an immersion blender (a little hand-held device that looks like an O-shaped coil at the end of a wire) and use it to mix it all up frothy...