Ask HN: Need help with job offer negotiation
Secondly, I graduated during the last recession, so my salary history is low. Their HR has heavily indicated that they base offers on prior salary history, with a 10-15% max bump. Glassdoor has base salary at 30% higher than mine, same company and title, but HR denies that it is accurate.
Due to circumstances, 10-15% may not bring much net savings increase for me. Presumably the job is of higher responsibility and workload, so only 30% becomes meaningful to me.
Questions:
1. How should I feel about being brought in one level lower strictly because of years of experience on paper? If there were doubts about my ability, they certainly didn't test harder questions during the interview.
2. How do I get HR to match what is on Glassdoor? I might get another offer soon, but HR indicated they want a prompt response. I doubt my company would move fast enough with a counteroffer too (VP is on vacation). On the other hand, I don't think they have another candidate ready, and they moved very quickly with me.
Thanks HN!
36 comments
[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 109 ms ] threadPersonally, I would not have felt too great about this. Are you really excited about this new job or are you switching just for the raise? The fact that they even have a hierarchy that's 3 level deep, counted in number of years and all that after a supposedly 8 year cut off just doesn't seem right. I think the HR is just trying to get you for the lowest offer they think you will find acceptable, not for what they think you ought to deserve.
About the response time don't sweat it. If they really want you, they'll be willing to hash out the details. Hiring for a single position can take 3 months or more, it's a lot of wasted effort if a company gets to the point of making an offer and having candidates decline.
Now, as far as how you should negotiate is concerned, I'm sorry, I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all solution to that.
Hope this was helpful.
"I appreciate the offer but I strongly believe that my market value should get me $desired and if you cannot match that, I will not be able to move forward."
Hit send, close tab and go away from your emails for a while. If they truly value your skills since they already interviewed you, you will get the deal. If not, hey you didnt lose anything
This has worked for me many times.
Also 8 vs 10 years of experience is not a significant difference so that HR can BS you.
They are moving quick on you because you're a solid candidate, and they are trying to close quick.
Don't let HR BS you, once you get an offer, counter them at 10-20% of where you want to be, or simply give them a range that you feel comfortable with.
You are the scarce resource, and at an advantage. They've already budgeted for the position at 2 levels above yours, so they have the money. No reason you shouldn't be able to get it.
Be firm, don't accept their lowball.
A side note: I don't get why providing a range is of any benefit, and I'm not talking about this particular situation. I wouldn't expect the other side to offer the top bracket if they know that I would accept the position for the lower bracket (I wouldn't specify the unacceptable lower bracket salary). What is in the setting that I don't see?
Another approach would be to ask HR for what their range is, and you can confirm that it is within your expectations. Mind you, this is not the final negotiation, just a ballpark of where they can make you an offer. You should still be able to negotiate to the upper limit of the range once you're given an offer.
A range gives you some flexibility, whereas giving them your current salary, or just as single value, immediately anchors you to it.
This is the part that I don't see: what flexibility? Except maybe for negotiating more paid holiday, but this seems to be specific to US, as the rest of Western world has guaranteed holiday by labour law.
If pressed on current salary:
"I'm not comfortable sharing proprietary information about how my current employer pays people."
If pressed on desired salary:
"I don't have a specific number in mind, and I look forward to hearing what you suggest since you know much better than I do what value someone with my skill set and experience will bring to your team."
"I appreciate your generous offer and would love to join the team! The role is exciting and the team is fantastic. The current offer feels like it comes in a bit under market both in terms of title and compensation.
I am ready to accept an offer at the initial level at a starting salary of <$$$$>. I totally understand if this doesn't work for the broader team, but I want to make sure our partnership starts off in alignment to ensure a mutually beneficial long-term relationship."
Written on my mobile, so it's a VERY rough draft, but something like that.
Don't let people under pay you, but also be realistic w/ your talent level.
Though, the base salary is the hardest thing to negotiate. A lot of companies won't change that number no matter how good you are, because they try to maintain their employees within the same bracket and avoid any frictions between people. Simply by asking I got double sign-on, more RSU's, etc. But from experience if it's not a google or one of the big 5, then they won't bump up the base salary. So you should target sign-on and RSU's/stock/options.
I honestly wouldn't want to work for a company like that.
Also if your looking at even considering a counteroffer form your current employer don't!!! If they value you as an employee they should not wait for you to resign to counter with more money.
1. Always stay polite. Getting emotional works against you in most cases.
2. Don't give ultimatums. Saying "I want this and this" is fine - don't add "or else...".
3. In your current situation, you have lost some negotiating leverage (your previous salary, your experience) but it's not unsalvageable. Simply bring them up and counter them yourself:
* Your previous salary is not relevant - only what you want to accept now. HR has a desire to lowball you so you should counter with a higher-than-market request.
* Your experience is not an issue. If they want you for the job then you are qualified for the salary that job entails.
4. Use the fact that you are _already_ giving them something by accepting an offer one level below! Make this a big deal and ask for compensation for doing a higher level job.
5. Pick a price that is 10% above market value and have a list of reasons you want it (new house, car, ...). Do not be afraid to stick to your ask. After all, they need you to do the job just as much as you need their job.
6. When picking a number do not pick a round number (numbers like 30% sound like you have not given it much thought. Numbers like 101,300/- sound like you have figured out your finances and have a good reason for your ask).
7. Be patient and remember you both want something out of this.
Good luck!
Edit: The Lightning Guide to Software Resumes has a short section on negotiating that is a good summary. A better book is "Never split the difference" by Chris Voss which is, I think, the best book on the subject.
I would ask for fair market value in order to avoid this possibility.
They are not the same thing.
Now explaining that to a HR might be an issue, but while it is clear that two years are different from ten, eight years in a given role/position in a "dynamic" firm - possibly a small one where you have to deal with a multitude of different problems - might be equivalent (or at least it is equivalent in my mind) to fifteen or more years in a big firm/highly structured multinational where the same role/position revolves around doing only what is on the paper.
Like others said, be nice but firm. Once during an interview, I was told that my desired salary range was above the top of the band for that job. I said with a big smile: "That's not my problem!" The interviewer said "You're right!"
They said, "oh that's outside the band for this position" so I replied, "that's unfortunate" and asked what we can do about it. There was a quick back and forth ("would you be willing to come down?" etc.), then I forget whether I suggested it or she did but I found out there was a more senior title with a higher salary band.
So that's how we solved the issue: after confirming with a VP, I got a fancier title and the salary I wanted, they got me in the right bucket on their comp grid.
The point is that you shouldn't walk away nor should you budge just because they say "that's outside the salary band. Maybe they're looking at the wrong band.
Ironically, they gave me their 10-15% formula as a lowball tactic, but once I did the calculations this way it came out slightly higher than market.
This was because of differences in benefits and net savings from cost of living.
I guess the question is now, how can I ask for higher than market? I'm not sure if I can. I may be a rare candidate that fit all their checkboxes and they need to move quickly, but this is a good step for me too.
Decide if you are willing to walk away. If you passed the interviews with no missed questions and the company has already invested a lot of time into you, it would be idiotic of them to pass on you for a measly extra 15%. Think about it. They'd have to spend hours/days/weeks sourcing more candidates, who then would drop off at various stages of the interview funnel. This process is costly, wasting the time of recruiters, HR people, engineers, management etc etc.
There is a real dollar value on that time. On top of that, costs like healthcare and on-boarding you into the team would cost tens of thousands. 15% is nothing compared to the total cost of hiring and ramping up an employee - especially relative to the value that you would produce (which is presumably a multiple of your salary).
So decide if you're willing to walk away, decide what compensation you want, and be firm yet reasonable/friendly. If they don't budge, then simply walk away and I bet they will scramble to find a way to keep you. On the off chance that they don't, then don't feel bad; you did your best and you probably don't want to work somewhere that underpays you relative to the market anyway.