Ask HN: What was your relocation package like?
I was recently offered a relocation package to move my family (myself, wife, and daughter) from Canada to California. I have nothing to compare my package to so I don't know if what I'm being offered is good or not. I tried to find information around the web but I couldn't find much.
The package that I'm being offered is $30,000. My position will be as a Software Dev Manager. We've been told we can use that money towards anything with a few exclusions. Oddly enough, legal fees for immigration are not covered by their package. Some quick math we did for moving costs, air fare, temporary rent while we buy a place, various furnishings, etc. still came in above $30,000.
What have your experiences been like with relocation packages? How good is $30,000 for moving a family of three?
64 comments
[ 3.4 ms ] story [ 163 ms ] threadhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#...
If you're born abroad to a single citizen parent, that citizen parent must have lived in the US for at least 5 years total and at least 2 years after the citizen parent's 14th birthday. If the citizen parent doesn't satisfy that when you're born, you don't qualify for birthright citizenship.
So, the US requires a substantial period of residence prior to the child's birth in order to pass down citizenship to the child.
Here's a few other costs we've found and we find more every day:
- Legal and processing fees for filing immigration paper work, doctor's visits, travel to interviews
- One way airfare or multiple airfares if I move first and family comes later so I can see them
- Getting all our belongings packed up and moved by a reputable mover
- Assistance with job placement for my wife since she also works
- Realtor fees for buying/selling ourt homes
- Some assistance with furnishing the new home
It can go on and on.
Lol relo money is not to pay your rent and buy a bunch of nice shit for your new house. It's to get you and your stuff from point a to b, and 30k is more than enough to do that.
Also how does finding your wife a job cost money? Applying for jobs doesn't cost anything. Multiple airfares back and forth what??? Relo money to pay for doctors visits???
The cost of relocation is the cost of relocation. That's any cost incurred by the process of relocating. In that person's case, it includes rent. Your case is different. End of story.
Yes, it's possible to move with an economy class ticket and a backpack. Indeed that's how I moved to the US, but expecting your employees to do this is typically not considered a good way to attract talent.
Simple, it could all be arranged within days.
My employer paid for my flight (at £80 or so, including my bike, on the nice airline), plus the cost to move my furniture.
The paperwork was putting my new address on a form, and ticking the box labelled "EU citizen".
I wouldn't have said this if the offer level was, say $10k or $20k. But $30k seems pretty good even if you have decided that you require the ability to buy a house (not everybody has that privilege; you should feel lucky, and not take it for granted).
It is an offer. It gives you and your family certain benefits. You may also have certain costs. Those are your business. Just deal with them, or not.
You can take it or leave it. If coming to California is worth it for you and your family, take the offer. If not, don't. Not every opportunity in life is cost-free for you. For some of them, you have to step up and pay some of your own contribution.
That being said, your concerns are all valid. These are all things you need to consider, and it's good you're thinking it through. Maybe you can present them to your prospective employer as inputs to your decision. Just don't give them the feeling that you have a very entitled attitude, although you seem to, because that could backfire either with a withdrawn offer, or feelings of rancor later.
Why do you say that?
It sounds like he doesn't want to be out of pocket for a relocation.
He has an upper middle class job and lifestyle and is moving for an upper middle class role. So he wants an upper middle class relocation package.
I went through a relocation a while ago, to the tune of about $6k. Far and away the most expensive part was staying in an Airbnb for 10 days while looking at apartments and then waiting to actually have keys in hand for my chosen apartment. Short term accommodation costs much more per night than a long term lease - I could not have afforded a 10 day "vacation" in this insanely expensive city just days after college.
$30k does seem high; maybe it was international shipping for a large house full of stuff?
My allowance excluded "stuff for the new home" (transportation for your existing stuff was of course allowed) and was specific about reimbursable pre/post move flights.
Because it's a _package_ that includes multiple benefits and not just a single reimbursement of a "moving van receipt and that's all you get."
A good relocation package from a major corporation will include many expenses besides the cost of the moving van.
This was my relocation package:
+ airfare for 2 trips for house hunting
+ lease cancelling fees (which was about $1800 since I broke my lease 3 months early to take the new job)
+ professional packers to come in a box everything up (this is very helpful as you don't have to lift a finger. E.g. They will take all dishes from the cupboards and silverware from the drawers, wrap everything in paper, and box everything up with a label.)
+ the car was also packed into a truck and shipped
+ the moving truck itself
+ professional crew to unpack everything at the destination
+ all hotels and meals while traveling during the move
+ repairs to furniture if anything was broken
That was my package for an engineer. The relocation package for managers such as directors got a few more things... like 3 trips for house hunting instead of 2 and the purchase of the old home if the real estate agent couldn't sell it in time, etc. If it's CxO level executives (CEO, senior vice presidents, etc), the relocation package will often be negotiated on a case-by-case basis to include more reimbursements.
The total came out to about $26k. In a quirk of USA tax law, relocation expenses are counted as additional income but the company was generous to "gross up" extra income on top of the relocation reimbursement to cover the extra tax payment. The amount of money spent on employee relocation may seem excessive but the rationale is that they want the new employee to be immediately productive on the new job instead him wasting time and worrying about how to round up uncles and siblings to help pack and move. Therefore, you provide as much of a "white glove" moving experience as reasonably possible.
That was my relocation experience in 1998. It would be interesting if a relocated employee from Google/Facebook/etc can talk about what today's packages from Silicon Valley companies look like.
Looks like they covered $10,111 + a tax gross-up. That included two months of rent at my NYC apartment, plus the lost deposit, for terminating my lease early. They paid the application, reservation, move-in and pet fees at my new apartment. They covered movers and a car rental.
Since I was already travelling to the site regularly, they didn't need to cover a special trip to look at places, but they did have me expense some extra train tickets so my wife could come look at apartments.
Also, be sure to check whether the money you receive is taxable income because that potentially will take another large bite.
Send me a message if you have any questions about my experience or any advice/follow up.
1 - I think that you want to be reimbursed, not given a bonus. The difference is you'll pay tax on the bonus, but if you're just reimbursed, no tax. If you must get it as a bonus, take your estimated expenses and divide by .6 to get the required bonus. Also don't forget that the US has two tax systems and this could bump you up close to AMT.
2 - make sure that, in case the job blows up, at bare minimum your required repayment falls by 1/12 each month. Better yet, no required repayment. You don't want to be in a situation that just happened to a friend of mine where 6 months in he and his manager mutually agreed it wasn't working and they want $25k back.
edit: I'd suggest 6 months with it falling 1/6 each month. If your new employer pushes back, I'd point out you're taking the far bigger risk here by moving countries.
One key recommendation that no one seems to have noted here, don't sell your house or belongings yet or buy new stuff. The comment about the role not working out and then having to figure out what's next from x0x0 is coming from someone who knows what they are talking about. Give yourself at least 6 months to understand if the job will work out before buying at your new location. This is especially true given that you will be on a visa. With the job gone, you will have 3 months max to unwind and leave the US.
Of course, I'm sure they're already consulting an accountant, but at least they have a window of opportunity to see how the new job works out before pulling the trigger on selling Canadian assets.
Definitely talk to an accountant.
Moving a family IS NOT the same as moving an individual. Whole different kettle of fish. I see folks saying that there is a sense of entitlement - that is an opinion.
Here is what I can think off right off the top of my head.
+ visas: $1000 TN/TD + accompanying visas ie spouse + child; 3x$160 for application, 3x~$100 to issue, total of app. $1000
+ legal & other fees $2000 medicals, paperwork for immigration especially for spousal / child visas etc (medicals for example, are $300-500 a piece!)
+ airfares: $3000 (go return - cheaper than 1 way + you set up your first visit back home), app. $1000 each, $3000 total
+ moving: $5000-$10000 $5k, you pack, someone ships; $10k - full service. Full service is way way better.
+ vehicle move $2000 assuming two cars, about $1000 each
+ storage $1500 Plan of taking out a storage unit for stuff you do not want to bring but do not want to dispose of yet
+ insurance $1000 move + storage + personal after you quit but before you start work at the new place
+ 2 months rent/hotel $5000 Assuming 2 bedroom minimum; this is not your final home, this is where you stay while you find a home. For SF, this is LOW!!!
+ real estate $3000 a broker to find a home (neighbourhoods, schools etc), you can do it without an agent but your work / life will suffer broker
+ career services (spouse) $2000 get your spouse into the workforce
+ house selling costs $5000 small repairs, painting etc: you get this back when you sell but you need it upfront
+ first 60 days $3000 For day 0 to day 4/5-ish, you are bleeding cash, buying everything! Toothbrushes, meals, meds, plan on at least 30 days before life stabilizes then big money on taxis/car to see houses + schools etc living costs , appropriate clothing
Re: taxes - for Canada, you do not reduce income amounts to reflect taxes paid, CRA offers a credit but full income must be reported.
Some Canada -> elsewhere specific gotchas that you need to think about. These caught me the first time, wish I had known.
-> exchange rates: get your package in the currency of the country you are going to, not Canadian. $30k canadian is a 40% discount on US and you will be buying services in US
-> metro homes are much smaller than the typical canadian home even in the GTA, unless you are in a condo. Stuff from your 3000 sq. ft. home will not fit in the 1500 sq. ft home you will end up in. For example, dont bother with a king size bed. Or a large couch. They won't fit and will end up on the street.
-> with kids, first find the school then find the house. Not the other way around. Schools have waiting lists, make sure you talk to them and make sure they will admit your child before you start looking for a home.
-> for houses, try to visit when kids would be home so that you can understand if your kids will be make friends. When we were searching, one place had a grass courtyard surrounded by houses, off the street, with more than 10 kids out - bikes, tennis rackets. We knew we were taking the house even before we saw the inside.
-> Proximity to transit, especially what you will take to work, is everything in a metro area.
-> if you are going to a metro area, bring your bikes, not so much the car. Or maybe one car. The one that can do more.
-> one benefit of full serve service move is they hold your stuff for up to 60 days while you find a house. If you move yourself, you have to put things in storage then get the out later then move then into new house. So, you essentially move house 3 times in 60 days. And where you are going, you have no friends. Just you and the spouse. I suggest that this may be bad for your marriage.
Drop me an email if you want more info shnm at 8t4t dot net
One key recommendation that no one seems to have noted here, don't sell your house or belongings yet or buy new stuff. The comment about the role not working out and then having to figure out what's next from x0x0 is coming from someone who knows what they are talking about. Give yourself at least 6 months to understand if the job will work out before buying at your new location. This is especially true given that you will be on a visa. With the job gone, you will have 3 months max to unwind and leave the US.
Everytime I hear about similar subjects and people talking about business expenses I'm always spooked by how much business money people spend. When it comes to other people's money (company in this case) it seems that one doesn't care like it was theirs.
$30K seems reasonable, if not even generous. I guess it's all relative to your base comp and if you're getting any other bonus. For instance, I also received a sign on bonus that was divorced from anything about the moving costs.
To move from Portland to Seattle (I know, not THAT crazy of a move) it cost us about $10k including having the moving company pack up the entire house, storage fees, etc.
If the wife hadn't have been pregnant and I would've taken more time off (I literally ended one job on Friday and started the other on Monday) we could've probably halved that cost, if not more.
If it was me and I had a $30K lump sum I'd do what I could to minimize the charges the moving company was hitting me with by packing up myself (I hated how they packed us up and I had more things broken in that move than I have ever had in any move and I've moved across the Atlantic and back).
You also will want to look at selling anything that's kind of big or heavy that isn't sentimental and worth less than a few hundred dollars.
For example, get rid of any IKEA furniture you have and buy it again when you get to where you're going. It will literally cost you more to move than it is worth.
On that note, especially if you have lots of stuff and/or are in a fairly big house now- try to sell or give away as much as you can. Use this as an opportunity to clean out the accumulated life cruft and start fresh. If it was up to me when we moved we would've been able to fit it in the back of my pickup.
Save money by driving instead of having your cars shipped and flying- and take a vacation while you're at it. Shipping your cars costs a lot, it's a hassle, and they'll probably get banged up. Plan a road trip and have fun with it.
That said, $30,000 is pretty decent, though I've only moved within the US, so I'm not sure of the costs associated with moving from Canada.
The one relo package I've received during the course of my career reimbursed the cost of moving my household goods (we rented a 'POD' and a couple of helpers at either end of the move), gas/mileage for the long drive, per diem for meals, and up to X nights in a Hotel. It didn't cover things like rental deposits, costs associated with setting up utilties/services, DMV fees in the new state, etc. All in all, it probably covered about $15-$20k worth of moving expenses for a coast-to-coast move.
The free rent allowed me to provide my future landlord with a previous address and a landlord reference.
When I was looking for a place, many places asked me to provide 1 to 3 months of rent as a deposit, because of a lack of a credit score. However I found a nice location that didn't have that requirement.
Taxes and rent are high in California. In that sense, working in another state... in a city like Seattle, allows you to keep much more of your money.
Then, I would interpret it as "up to $30,000". So keep the receipts/invoices.
I would suggest doing a little more research on the tax implications of moving. The only major expense you can write off is what you pay the moving company. Everything else is counted as regular income and taxed. This can especially bite you with the USA's confusing AMT tax system.
Also, try and get the move done prior to May. Prices will go up 20-30% and availability will be a lot tighter for moving companies
[0] co-founder of https://www.movebuddha.com/
1) Unless you can afford a $1.5M US house, don't bother thinking you can just sweep in and buy a home within a month. The competition is way too fierce these days. It will probably take you about 1 year unless you're very rich already. Since you have a daughter, you need to figure out if you want to live in a cheaper area, far away from your work with a long commute, and send her to private school, or live closer to work, and pay an exorbitant amount, and probably still pay for private school.
I suggest paying the exorbitant rent for 6 months or a year, in a place close to work so that you familiarize yourself with the area, and then start the search to buy a place.
2) $30k sounds like a very generous relocation package. I think your expectations as to what it will cover are way too much. Things like multiple airfares and real estate broker fees sound like you have a sense of entitlement. Those shouldn't be covered in my opinion, those are the cost of leaving your home.
I know you said those only apply to the bay area, but those were covered when I took a job with a fortune 500 financial institution. They even flew me down all expenses paid for house hunting several weeks before I actually moved. It was just a senior dev position, not even a lead. I think it's fairly standard for larger companies trying to attract top talent.
Real estate fees for a 1M house is approximately $50k in Canada. Should the company really cover that, plus everything else? That's approaching $100k relocation package for a Dev Manager, if he already lives in a high-cost area of Canada.
At some point, it doesn't make financial sense to switch jobs, there's no shame in that. Personally, I would never recommend anyone to come to SF Bay Area if they have a family with children, and if they spouse isn't a high income earner as well. Especially if they already have a house, it's going to be a big step down. I have friends who make > $400k combined that can't afford a reasonably priced home in the Bay Area.
In SF itself most public schools are lowly rated. But many areas, especially MOST of the East Bay, public schools are very highly rated. Unless the OP moves into SF I don't think private school is necessary at all. Just make sure to check the ratings before moving into an area.
> I suggest paying the exorbitant rent for 6 months or a year, in a place close to work so that you familiarize yourself with the area, and then start the search to buy a place.
This is good advice and what we ultimately ended up doing. It's crazy expensive but now we know where we want to live, how much to expect things, etc. Our weekend trip out here to pick out a house was just no where near enough time to buy or figure out the area for renting.
> Things like multiple airfares and real estate broker fees sound like you have a sense of entitlement. Those shouldn't be covered in my opinion, those are the cost of leaving your home.
Relocation is meant to cover the cost of leaving your home. Many friends I've talked to had company cover air fair and sometimes real estate broker fees. I know a company I went with did.
I think it's a bit much saying OP has a sense of entitlement; OP seems to not know what to expect and simply asked a question and discussed the real logistics behind the move. When you search online many places offer to cover that and many do not.
I said it sounded like he had a sense of entitlement, I actually meant from the point of view of the company. I mean it sounds like he also wants free meals included, and Wifi on the plane as well. $30k I think is pretty generous, all things considered, and at some point, it won't make sense to move to the Bay Area. Does he really expect a $100k relocation package? I hate to say it but he's only a dev manager. Personally I don't think unless his wife is an engineer or another high-wage career, that they shouldn't move. Their quality of life will suffer. Anything less than $300k combined salary is tough with kids, rent, commute, etc.
Tremendously seems overstating it. Many in California are used to driving very long distances to work but you can get from even beyond where the BART line ends in Easy Bay to SF in an hour even with bad traffic. The trains in the bay area are a great way to minimize commuting to and from the city.
Good house prices is too subjective. In some general sense sure but I don't think CAP is a good analogy here.
> I said it sounded like he had a sense of entitlement, I actually meant from the point of view of the company. I mean it sounds like he also wants free meals included, and Wifi on the plane as well.
I didn't get anything like that AT ALL from the OP's post. This sounds more like a strawman than anything else.
> I hate to say it but he's only a dev manager. Personally I don't think unless his wife is an engineer or another high-wage career, that they shouldn't move. Their quality of life will suffer. Anything less than $300k combined salary is tough with kids, rent, commute, etc.
This...is wildly off topic and pretty terrible advice. You don't really know anything about OP other than they wanted to know what other people's relocation packages were so they can compare and get an idea as to how generous, or not, this company's offering is.
Yes the bay area is expensive but less than $300k a year isn't "tough" unless you're trying to live in a million dollar home and you're burning through money. You seem to have very unrealistic expectations.
Personally, I make considerably less than $300k a year with two kids. We rent a large house and my kids go to highly rated public schools. It's expensive, yes, but I don't think I would call it "tough". In fact I see my family far, far more than I did when I worked on the east coast.
My point being: everyone's situation is different and I think your perspective is a bit too narrow to be giving general, unsolicited advice.
If you want a reasonable commute (less than 1hr) (ie. South Bay, Peninsula, SF, etc) close to great companies, live in a safe area, with good schools, then earning anything less than $300k combined makes it tough. You can't even afford the mortgage payment on an average house in those areas at $150k/yr, unless you have a massive down payment, and God help you if one of you or your spouse loses their job.
Reasonable commute is relative. For example if you live as far east as the end of Pleasanton / Dublin in East Bay you can have a roughly 45 minute commute to the financial and nearby districts in SF.
Point being you can hit your most or all of your marks and not need $300k a year. In fact that's a difficult amount for the average or even above average person to make and it's not always possible to have spouses working.
Let people judge what they can and cannot afford to do. General statements like saying making under $300k is going to be tough isn't constructive and while it may be true in some instances it's certainly not true for all.
Before people pick up and move their entire lives they typically research the area. Suggesting otherwise is just a way of calling them stupid. If someone tells me they're doing X and want feedback on Y, I'm not going to automatically assume they're being stupid about X.
Sounds rude to me.
> I ask EVERYONE and they agree that $300k/yr is about the threshold where life stops getting "tough".
Sounds like you're in your own bubble. Its always good to seek out alternative views on something instead of just doubling down in your narrow set of anecdotes. If you're only asking your rich friends you're not going to have a good idea on the reality.
Only if you live right on top of the station. Since these places have relatively poor local transportation and parking demand at stations far outstrips supply, getting between your apartment and the station will add significant time.
Reminder that a normal commute is ~25 minutes. We've just gotten acclimated to extremes here.
Yeah if you're within biking distance it's pretty awesome and quick. I take a 10-15 minute drive to the station most days. I really wish they did more about the parking though; even people out in Tracy hit that BART station so parking is full, minus permit spots, by 7:30am or sooner.
to add 2c to the schools debate -- many of the south bay schools e.g. (for hs) monte vista, gunn, palo alto high, harker, menlo-atherton, ... currently have many recent students that are olympics-level athletes and international-level competitors in the sciences/humanities -- I would argue they tend to be better represented in the top US universities than many other places in the country.
> shouldn't be covered in my opinion, those are the cost of leaving your home
If costs of relocating shouldn't be covered in a relocation package then what should?
It doesn't sound overly entitled at all. Negotiate it.
- Note, of course not being American I can't comment on the actual amount. A quick google suggests around 15k in physically moving everything long distance (inc. self), plus the second move locally (2k?), plus rent difference of the temp place compared to expected place (rent/mortgage). So if my ballparks are OK then they have 6mo at 2k extra rent (no idea if thats reasonable). Private school should be factored into salary.
The first time I was given $2,500 to move from FL to AK to work for a small consulting firm. Really just a token gesture, but it paid for the ferry and hotels for the drive up. I had to arrange everything myself, pay out of pocket, and submit receipts for reimbursement.
Second time I moved from AK to TX to work for a large financial institution and the total was $22,000 and some change all together. They flew me down to house hunt for a week all expenses paid, then flew me down again when I actually moved. They had my car shipped, I had to drop it off at the port in AK but it was delivered to my house in TX. They had movers come to my place and pack everything, then deliver and unpack everything on the other end. All I had to do was pick the dates for everything to happen. It was like a military move but better, because I wasn't in the military anymore.
- Company A: $10k for relocation or cover the cost of a moving company to pack and move all of our stuff including our vehicles.
- Company B: $22k relocation "lump sum" (this varied depending on your circumstances; I was a home owner in another state so I got the max), company paid moving company to pack everything up and move it across the country including two vehicles, reimbursed airfare for flying out to house hunt and again for the final relocation airfare, paid for closing costs to sell our existing home, paid for company to help us buy or rent a home in the bay area. I also got a starting bonus but that wasn't technically part of relocation.
I know a lot of people who have relocated in the past. Everyone seemed to agree Company B offered probably one of the best and most thought the average for the area was a range with Company A at the low end and somewhere in the middle between Company A and Company B being at the high range.
Hope that's helpful!