Tell HN: Someone deleted a submission re Wakemate

124 points by MartinMond ↗ HN
A few minutes ago I stumbled upon a submission chastising WakeMate for still not shipping. There were 6 comments. I hit refresh and the title changed to [dead] and the submission was removed from the front page. What is going on?

At this URL the comments can still be found: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1358309

38 comments

[ 3.8 ms ] story [ 85.0 ms ] thread
Weird. I thought it was pretty friendly worded, and given the fact that they seem to stonewall and their blogs are 'mostly dead' a posting here, especially a carefully worded one is a good way to get back in touch.
Absolutely, I don't see a reason for deleting this post. Actually they should be glad that people are still caring about the progress they make (or not).
I really hope this will lead to an answer by the Wakemate founders.
Isn't this desire for a response from Wakemate more emotional than reasonable? Look: they're either going to get their shit together or they aren't. In the meantime: they've 2x blown their credibility with message-board types like us. Calls for them to be accountable to Hacker News don't make any difference: nothing they say matters to reasonable-but-anal people anymore.

How about, we just assume it's not going to work out for them, and be pleasantly surprised if it does?

Wakemate pretty much launched from HN, plenty of the first batch of pre-orders came from here.

If wakemate does not communicate openly, even if there is a big problem they may do a lot of damage to future YC start-ups that plan on HN as their first place to gain traction.

The ability to deliver technically is only part of the success of a business. The ability to communicate clearly, honestly and effectively is just as important.

It may be that the Wakemate devs have perfectly fair and reasonable grounds for not delivering yet; being open and honest with their customers about where they are and what they're dealing with could well win back some of their lost credibility.

It's not "emotional" for a customer to reach out to the company and ask for some straight dealing.

Indeed, it provided well reasoned criticism, about a startup of all things.

If you have a startup, talk with your customers. Build a community. You want your customers to be happy with your product and tell it to all of their friends. I told several people that I was getting a wakemate, and showed them how cool it was. In the months since, they ask about it, but all I can tell them is about my disappointment from yet more delays.

the [dead] link: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1358309

Also I thought this post made it worthwhile:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1358462

Could have been an interesting discussion.

Definitely! In fact, why doesn't wakemate crowdsource their problems? The one place where people will fall over each other to help them out is here.
Hey, I wrote the post, thanks for this. Someone on twitter mentioned it got removed (I myself still see it. #5 on the homepage), it seems you noticed it too.

It sucks that it got deleted, I just want them to update me on their current status as promised, and I'm sure (and the upvotes seemed to agree) that a lot of HN people feel the same.

Hacker News is not fair when it comes to YC companies. This would have been a valid post if it concerned some other well-known company. It probably won't be for Wakemate. I don't know that it's Graham killing the stories (there's a pronounced YC bias here, for obvious reasons, and most of us can "flag"), but that doesn't matter; the effect is the same.

I don't like it, but I accept it. There aren't so many important YC companies right now that this is a real problem. I suggest: write a blog post with your open letter, promote it on Twitter, here, and Reddit, and let it pick up steam that way.

Hacker News isn't a complaint board for YC companies, so start by refactoring your story so that it doesn't appear like you're trying to use the site that way.

Or, you know, get on with your life. I've written off Wakemate. They can keep my $5. Best of luck.

I suspect [hope?] the reason it was deleted was down to the fact it was directed at the founders (and was angling for a response).

A "what happened to wakemate then?" post may have survived.

I'll admit that the exposure it would get on hacker news factored into deciding to write it here. They have a valid excuse to ignore my own blog, less so here (well, I thought that anyway).

Nevertheless, I see posts like these pop up on hacker news from time to time and thus considered it 'fair game' for wakemate too. Apparently not.

I respect you for dismissing Wakemate. You offer valid reasons elsewhere in this thread too. But it matters more to me. It's not about that lousy five bucks for me, of course it isn't. As I said in my original post. that 5 bucks represent trust (and, on their part, commitment.) Admittedly not much, and they do not have to give it, but hell, They'd be a much better company if they did try to keep that trust.

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That's unfair. I don't kill links to blog posts critical of YC funded companies. The reason I killed that post was that it was using an HN post to send a message to one.

It's explicitly against the site guidelines to use HN posts to send messages to YC, and has been many years. We ask anyone who has a message for us to send it by email. This is the first time anyone has used HN to try to send a message to one of the companies we've funded, but that seems close enough that it's reasonable to kill it. There was certainly nothing in the post to engage one's intellectual curiosity.

It's worth having "showdead" set to "yes" on your HN options page for this very reason. It's still "on the front page" for me, despite being dead :-) You get to see some rather.. interesting things stick around with this option on (and surprisingly little trash, unless you hang around /newest a lot).

That aside, there seems to be a lot of assumption that the post was deleted. This may not be so. Enough "flag"s can do it too, of course, but I get the impression that there are super users who can dead a post in one strike :-)

Suggestion: repost with a request to not flag the article without an explanation why.
Why, so we can have more drama?
No, because if it is flags they might not flag it again. Deleting the story does more damage than a conversation.
The right answer to a flagged story isn't to repost it as an appeal. While I flagrantly ignore Graham's request to "just flag stories and not comment on them" (because I think that's a silly policy), even I might think it crosses a line to repost a story to beg for someone to violate that guideline.

The discussion the original story hoped for is already happening here. Let it do what it's going to do and then go away.

> The discussion the original story hoped for is already happening here.

Good point, I missed how fast this shot up.

Didn't know about this flag - thanks for pointing it out. As for the post - doesn't seem offensive at all.

PG: Hacker News improvement suggestion: for any post that gets deleted - show the username of the one who deleted it so when "showdead" is set to "yes" it shows this. An explanation would also be a nice thing to have as part of this mechanism. I'm going on the assumption that you follow Guido's BDFL model.

> show the username of the one who deleted

I have no evidence for this but I think there is a policy of the mods not discussing a) that they are mods and b) their reasoning etc.

I kinda agree; many forums end up degrading into arguments about which mod did what and for why.

EDIT: possible happy medium - a text field where a mod can jot down why it was killed...

Maybe an irrelevant data point, but I am in the top 10 users karma-wise, and I have never heard anything about being a mod. So it must be the super-secret elite that get to be mods.
Well - if we take a big leap here and assume that one of WakeMate's founders is a mod and this person deleted the post then the policy is not so good.

A possible approach is to allow the mods to have aliases to their usernames (and PG and company can be the only ones knowing the correspondence of alias to username). This way - HN users could see the history of deletions of a particular mod without knowing the actual user.

Granted, HN users are smart and someone could probably create a data mining app which would find the actual user by looking at pattern of deletions, topics of posts, etc... but that's life and that's what you get for having a lovely place such as HN.

The post was well over 10 votes (which IIRC is the limit where flags don't take effect in killing it any more).

So it was a moderator kill. On that score I believe YC alumni are the mods :)

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It's unbelievable how wakemate blew all the goodwill they had. The product they promised at just $50 was so compelling that I couldn't NOT preorder it. But a month ago I gave up on them and ordered the zeo (for $200 more). This should be a lesson to other YC companies on how not to launch your product.
Care to write a review of the Zeo? I'm thinking about getting one if I still don't have a WakeMate by my birthday (in June).
There's probably a lot of them on-line, but I can give you my experience with it. I'm in class right now but I'll edit this post later (30-60 mins) with a review.

Edit: I agree with everything jrockway said. I've seen improvements in my sleep, but it's not a miracle device: you get what you put into it. My problem was that I was sleeping a lot (10-11 hours wasn't unusual) and still felt tired in the morning and often went back to sleep. Since using the zeo, I've been able to reduce the amount of sleep I get to a more reasonable level (7-8 hours) and I feel pretty good in the morning. I've also been waking up earlier in the morning, giving me more time to do things I want to do before going to sleep. Sometimes I was too optimistic and set the alarm too early, though, and went back to sleep anyway. That rarely happens now, however. That said, I can't way whether my improvements in sleeping are due to the zeo or just a placebo effect.

Having hard quantitative data lets you analyze how your habits affect your sleep. For example, it's completely obvious to me now how drinking alcohol before sleeping negatively affects your sleep. The quality of my sleep went down and I'd wake up several times during the night. I'm hoping I can figure out more things like this like jrockway talked about (it's not perfect since you can't do something like a double-blind study, but you can try to emulate the scientific method).

The headband is fine. The alarm clock has a similar interface to any other alarm clock. The alarm sounds are really pleasant to wake up to (no beeping). I would recommend this to more people if it weren't $200, though to me it's a bargain for sleeping better.

I have a Zeo. The headband is comfortable to wear, and the data it collects is pretty interesting. (The question I wanted the Zeo to answer was, "is it useful to go back to bed for an hour after getting up to write an email and check on work". The answer is yes; I get right back into the REM sleep I was in when I got up. It's like I never woke up at all. I have also learned that I sleep better on my back than on my side. When I sleep on my side, I usually wake up after a few minutes of deep sleep. On my back, the deep sleep lasts for an hour a night or so.)

It's not all good, though. Their web interface is a PITA to use (the textfields are their custom javascript code instead of textfields, and this completely breaks conkeror), and the data the device collects is encrypted so that you can't access it without their website.

The Zeo is worth $200, but it's not a perfect product. I would have liked a VFD instead of a LCD for that kind of money, for example. And hiding my own data from me is pretty evil. If someone made a competing device, I would buy it instead of the Zeo. Probably.

I agree. If they had trouble getting their product made then they should have blogged about their experience and been a lot more open about their troubles.

This would have won them a lot of sympathy and trust.

As we have said several times, we underestimated demand for our product. PG has always said to build something people want. We did that, albeit a tad too well. Rest assured, this is not a conspiracy organized by the caffeinated beverage industry to keep these units out of your hands!

Several units have already shipped and have received overwhelmingly positive responses. While the vast majority of backorder customers understand our difficulties, it's clear that a subset have grown increasingly frustrated, and understandably so. We think this reflects on the great enthusiasm for our product. However, these concerns must be addressed, and we intend to address them. To alleviate the frustrations of our most eager customers, we are offering to expedite orders for those who upgrade to our Pro Package offering. For a minor fee, you will be bumped to the front of the queue and enjoy also all the benefits provided for by the Pro Package. We feel this is the best solution for all. Details will be forthcoming on our website.

The problem with flagging or deleting is that you risk giving it a lot more attention than it would have received in the first place :/
I think that's already happened.

Way to go, moderator.

This really underscores my wish for HN to be more transparent in how the decision is made to [dead] a submission or a comment. Right now it feels highly arbitrary; about half the time I can't easily determine why something is killed.