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Ask HN: Why aren't there any large e-ink monitors?

53 points by csours ↗ HN
I tend to read PDFs at my computer, and I would prefer to read them on e-ink, on a large display.

I just searched and found Dasung Paperlike[0], but it seems both quite small and quite expensive.

Is there some technological limitation to creating a large e-ink monitor?

0:https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/paperlike-world-s-first-e-ink-monitor-13-3#/

26 comments

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AdamJacobMuller
Depends how large you want to get, and what you really want it for.

If its really just for reading PDFs, have you tried a Kindle DX?

If you want something hooked up to a computer for whatever reason, I know http://shopkits.eink.com/product/13-3%CB%9D-epaper-display-e... does exist and you can buy it (alibet its expensive -- but not as expensive as the dasung, wow, 1300?) but its very DIY development kit.

There was another company in the USA that I found that also sells e-ink displays that are HUGE, they do it as digital signage (menu at a coffee bar type stuff). I can't fathom what they charge but its probably astronomical.

I do think this is all a bit unfortunate, I would love to have a few of these e-ink displays on my walls at home for things like shared calendar with my family and put a few in the office for our calendars too but its just crazy expensive and very inaccessible for now.

Unfortunately I think e-ink missed the boat. They never got past the volume curve to make large displays remotely mass produced (due to expense), and they are expensive because they aren't mass produced....

csours
I haven't tried the DX. Ideally I'd like a monitor that was bigger than the standard 8.5x11 PDF page.

The other use case for it being a monitor is ease of use. It is slightly difficult to transfer a PDF to a Kindle; not very difficult I know, but enough that I rarely do it.

I think you are right about manufacturing scale. LCDs have such incredible scale I don't think e-ink could ever match, unless there was a combined e-ink LCD.

---

Side note, that 13.3 e-ink kit looks suspiciously like the Dasung Paperlike form factor.

DaiPlusPlus
I got my dad an Amazon Kindle DX for Christmas 2013 - right around the time they discontinued it. The display still looks good today, though not as white as the latter-day handheld Kindles, and the product casing bends easily with slight pressure which makes the device feel cheap, though I appreciate it is very lightweight for its size.

It'd be great if Apple's industrial design team did an e-ink iPad, they would be able to make it considerably thinner and sturdier.

bnolsen
I wouldn't mind having a 24" or 27" for coding use. All those years of having active pixels (and phosphors) blasting my eyes can't be a good thing. An issue might be getting good quality ambient lighting to use with a display like this.
atomical
I think the slow refresh rate would make coding impossible.
andruc
The refresh rate of the e-ink displays of certain smart watches surprised me. It was displaying fluid animations without any ghosting.

I'm not sure if refresh rate is a function of display size at all, but I will say they've come a long way at improving it over earlier Kindle modles.

ClassyJacket
If you're referring to the Pebble, that used Memory LCD, not EInk, and it's a completely different technology.
undersuit
Scrolling would be a problem. But a good controller makes small text changes possible, even my old Kindle 2 can do small updates to the screen without having to do a total redraw.
tedmiston
Even just reading and highlighting on a Kindle Paperwhite, the refresh rate is painful.
DaiPlusPlus
Visionect have a 32" ePaper displays in color and grayscale: https://www.visionect.com/blog/32-inch-eink-development-kit-...

But they're pricy: grayscale is $3600, color is $4700: https://www.visionect.com/development_kits

The underlying display is still made by eInk Inc, who sells a very similar product on their own website: 31.5" instead of 32", and only in grayscale - but surprisingly: for only $2000: http://shopkits.eink.com/product/signage-evaluation-kit-v3-w...

I plan to buy one of these large eInk/ePaper displays and mount them on the wall in my home's atrium where I'll display a dashboard showing traffic levels, road cameras, and a weather update. I'd really like color though, but $2000 vs $4700 - I guess I'll make-do.

mojomark
Some guys I know launched this product which could be used as a large format e-ink monitor: https://www.printlessplans.com

However, it seems working with the epaper display suppliers is a bear.

luka-birsa
I'm one of the founders of Visionect and we've been providing tools for EPD development for a while now. The pricing towards E Inks development kit reflects the tooling that is included in our development kits - you're able to plug one 32" panel to ethernet, configure the IP and display an image in minutes. Dynamic applications are simple web pages, so that gets our developers off the ground very fast - for instance: integration with Geckoboard literally means entering one URL in the server configuration.

PS: If I were looking to deploy a wall mounted panel which doesn't look like a development kit, I would wait for a while. ;)

CyberFonic
e-ink displays refresh rather slowly. My Kindle is slow to page refresh when I use the built-in browser. I'm assuming that that flicker would become progressively worse as the displays become larger.
tracker1
Would think it would depend on the controller and regions for the display... then again, it's not something you'd want for playing video.
SonderDesign
I'm the founder of Sonder, an E Ink smart keyboard startup; I've written here previously about E Ink when we were published in WSJ regarding Apple.

E Ink is a brilliant display, but the process of manufacturing, cutting the TFT mask etc is expensive; only on mass volumes can displays costs become incredibly cheap (6" E Ink in a kindle is <$10 USD). It's the same for most displays OLED etc in small volumes are expensive; which is why the touchbar solution COGS is over $200 USD.

Therefore E Ink has a high MOQ of a few hundred thousand units, anything below that and you're priced at basically prototype costs which is why a 32" E Ink display is $2k.

maxmonlt
Sony has a bigger screen ebook reader but it is also expensive. I have been using Kindle DXG but it has no WIFI module.
luka-birsa
I'm one of the founders of Visionect (http://www.visionect.com), that focuses on EPD solutions. We offer a bunch of development kits (6"-32") that can be easily productivized (our customers are building bus stops, traffic signs, museum signage, room booking systems,...)

There are no technological limitations in terms of the panel size (backplane technology is practically the same as TFT), but its rather a volume question.

We see this "personal display" theme pop-up quite often on our email, but the pricing is prohibitive (even compared to high quality and high resolution LCD consumer panel) and the refresh rate does impose a lot of limitations on what you can do.

I think that E Ink is best used for displaying information and use cases that benefit from E Ink itself (think high contrast, outdoor scenarios, indoor units that work 24/7, applications where you can power a display with a battery and reduce installation complexity).

rneilan
There is a minority of people who are interested in e-ink monitors because it's felt this type of screen does not trigger migraines. My experience with e-ink is with the Kindle, and it seems that I am not tensing up my forehead as much. My second point is going to sound a bit silly, but I'll put it out there anyway with the chance that someone relates. I think I have an Internet addiction problem, and I like the idea of making it a bit harder/slower to peruse the Internet. If it takes a site longer to load, I'm going to be more judicious in what I click on. Ok. Go ahead and laugh now.
LorenzoLlamas
Madness. If you want black and white dashboards in your office or home, or if you want to mount it vertically and read PDFs, just get a matte HD monitor, and set it up for B&W on your software settings. Then, you can turn it into a fish tank display when you aren't reading or viewing your dashboard (which sounds lame to me, but geekiness knows no bounds, I suppose). What is e-ink for? The "powered off" viewability? A real monitor left on all year takes almost no energy. I mean, if you can consider $3000 to put a dashboard up to monitor the weather (what is happening to the human race?), you can swing the extra $20/year by just leaving a real monitor on 24/7, especially when you'll only pay $250 for it. Madness. Maybe go out and spend time in the rain and not know it was coming? Or just talk to people and get to know them? Or explore new places in town with using a mapping tool first? Sigh... we are all doomed.
nvukas
There is also PaperCast company (http://www.papercast.net). They found their market in bus stop displays, but also work for other applications. You get illuminated device for outdoor use in anodised aluminium frame and with antiglare front protective glass. Just contact them. They will try to find a solution also for your application.