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Ask HN: Formal HR warning for swearing in a casual chat room – is this normal?

4 points by mrmondo ↗ HN
So, I was in the wrong and had built up a lot of steam one day around some ongoing problems that an organisation had failed to address many times over and I stupidly said something along the lines of 'I'm so sick of all the issues for project X always being last minute, unplanned and untested... I'm really sick of this shit!'

Obviously I shouldn't have sworn and I should have been more professional (despite raising the issues formally on many occasions previously over several years).

So while I know I was in the wrong and said something stupid, I was wondering if this is common place for petty sentences like this to be sort of 'bureaucratised' by HR?

Even the team in question said any formal warning was totally over the top and not at all what they wanted to occur but it seemed HR had made their mind up already.

So, I'm not trying to expose or have a go at any organisation here, I'm genuinely interested to hear if anyone else has a similar experience, especially anyone who's not in the US where I believe it's very easy to fire people etc... which is (I can assure you) not what they're trying to do with me.

17 comments

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mattbillenstein
That seems extreme -- they could be in CYA mode to document reasons to fire you.

I've worked at places like this -- they didn't have the balls to fire anyone for worry that they'd get sued for wrongful termination; so to get rid of a problem employee, they'd spend 6-12 months building up evidence or working on a "performance improvement plan" or whatever.

mrmondo
I know exactly what you mean and I've seen it happen at other places but I can assure you this is not the case here, I won't go into detail but you'll just have to take my word for it, but thank you for the warning just incase.
FLGMwt
I'm curious, what language did HR use?

I'm surprised by that response to what seems legitimate expression of frustration, but not aghast.

In all likelihood, it was someone on your team who was discomforted by the chat and mentioned it to hr. At that point, they don't have much of an option but to discuss it with you, especially if there is no explicit policy for swearing.

mrmondo
No it was someone working on one of the project parts but they didn't complain to HR they mentioned it to their manager who then brought it up but didn't lodge a complaint for a warning.

That same manager then apologised and said that he didn't intend / want it to be something formal like that at all but it seemed too late.

meric
I suggest just taking it at face value - it's a warning. Don't swear again. Make it clear you regret swearing and being unprofessional in that instance and it won't happen again. I think that's the best way to go whether they're "building a case" or only wanted to issue you a warning.
[dead] mrmondo
Yeah that was absolutely where I was going with it, I just had a number of people say that it was quite an over-reaction which is why I asked if anyone else had heard of such a response before.
zhte415
When something gets taken to HR they likely have policies that kick-off automatically. I don't know the size of your organsiation, but adherence to these procedures will get checked in any audit of the HR department a medium+ size company does.

Hands are tied, wheels go in motion.

As another poster also said, this could very much be part of the toxin healing you described.

An aside: I recommend anyone reading this to keep a warm relationship with your HR; don't need to be friends but simply warm. As well as showing you're a colleague, wheels are oiled for when difficult or unexpected organisational problems arise and need to be solved down the line. Not suggesting this of the OP, but in these discussions it can often turn into 'us vs. them' which is absolutely wrong.

mrmondo
Oh and HR stated that 'the communication was in appropriate and goes against the company code of conduct...', which is very hypocritical as they let a sexist, agist, psychopathic bully loose and cause havoc throughout the company for almost 4 years as many people complained and left because of his bullying and harassment / power games. They have however since replaced this person with someone excellent who is 'healing' the org and turning things around I believe.
cjbprime
Telling people not to lose their temper and behave unprofessionally in company chat rooms may be part of "healing" a previously toxic environment. I'd just take it for what it is, it sounds like you were correctly called out on some unconstructive behavior, apologize and move on, no big deal.
mrmondo
Yeah that was absolutely where I was going with it, I just had a number of people say that it was quite an over-reaction which is why I asked if anyone else had heard of such a response before.
brudgers
Sure people may say it was an over-reaction. People also said all the toxic things that in the past that you described as creating problems in the workplace...and had no problem with doing so.

In terms of HR's reaction, there are many jobs where what you said would be considered a defacto resignation by HR/management, aka "you'd be fired on the spot'. Fast food, ordinary retail, and similar corporatized service industries come to mind...i.e. jobs that actually really tend to suck and where workers are considered highly fungible and the relationship between management and workers is not collegial.

mrmondo
You can't just fire someone on the spot, perhaps in Russia or China I'm guessing, but you have employee and human rights laws protecting you from things like that. You'd have to do some sort of criminal / sexual offence for that to occur and be legal.
brudgers
In the US, most employment is 'at will' and employers can and do fire without cause. In this case, a marginally sophisticated employer could readily cast what was written as justification for firing with cause. And because of the way unemployment insurance rates for an employer are set, the employer has a financial incentive for so doing. On top of that, those lawyers would have access to historic chat logs to back up the company's interests.

Of course none of that applies outside the US.

mrmondo
Oh gosh, that sounds absolutely horrible and clearly unfair, I'm truly sorry to hear that (if you live in the states).
cjbprime
I'm afraid you're very wrong. Almost all employment in the US is "at-will", meaning it can be terminated by the employer at any time and for any reason. They don't even have to say what the reason is.
mrmondo
As I said above: Oh gosh, that sounds absolutely horrible and clearly unfair, I'm truly sorry to hear that (if you live in the states).
borplk
I don't really know. I'd guess it depends on the type of organisation. In a casual startup I would hear coworkers saying fuck a good 20 times a day and no one cared.