personally I think the US should agree to take any refugees that come across the border into China. We can just take them to South Korea. Maybe that will make it easier for China to stop supporting this twisted situation.
If they really believe that the rest of the world wants to go to war with them, maybe what they need is for us to convince them we don't. How we'd get through the propaganda, and how we'd convince them, I don't know, but...
In a case like this, it's pretty hard to differentiate between the official propaganda and what people really think. Even when they confess utter sincerity, you should always ask yourself just how big of a percentage of official doublespeak is automatically infused into their discourse (hint: the bigger the distance between you and them on the social graph, the bigger the percentage).
Trust me, I know, I've been "there" (in a general sense, not the geographical location).
It obviously isn’t. There are several age old European parties with roots in socialism and they are all pretty harmless.
I don’t think simplistic portrayals of history and ideologies – like yours – are very helpful.
Here is my version: Identify which concepts, ideas and methods turned North Korea to the state it is today. Discourage the use of those concepts, ideas and methods whenever they are proposed. This is probably best done by pointing out errors or inconsistencies or by presenting alternatives.
I should probably clarify that I really have no qualms with the first sentence of the grandparent’s comment. A generalization, maybe, but markets do work great in many situations and freedom created tremendous wealth and happiness. I just think that you shouldn’t use the term “Socialism” in the way the grandparent did. It just has too much history and too many ideas, concepts and methods connected with it.
Today, sure. Not in the past, not until the late 1950s, even.
All I wanted to say is that they started out with Socialism and didn’t turn everything they touched into North Korea. Which means that tyranny is not the logical consequence of Socialism.
Um, they regularly are in power. For example last time socialist parties got 65/150 seats in parliament in the netherlands. Liberals got 25/150 seats. Parties based on religion got 47/150 seats. Note that even liberals are more left wing in many ways than the democrats in the US, but the socialists are not at all like the typical "whaaaa, commies" person imagines them. At least we still seem to be going fine.
These days, whenever I hear the word "socialism", I automatically stop listening and move across the room to start a different discussion. It's on the same list with "flat earth", "autism-causing vaccines" and so forth.
EDIT: I'm sorry to say, but it seems like the majority of people in the US use this word a lot without having any idea what it really means. It's become empty, a visceral cry, bypassing rational thought entirely. This too shall pass, I guess, but for now it's pretty sad.
We raise awareness about the human rights and humanitarian crisis in North Korea through the use of media and grassroots support. We help those who have fled their country because of this crisis – refugees – by sheltering them, advocating for them to governments all over the world, helping them resettle in countries that will accept them, and ultimately empowering them to live new lives.
It gives a very clear picture of what's happening in North Korea, and about the situation for North Koreans inside and outside of North Korea (I was going to write '...their country', but that doesn't really seem correct).
It is from 2007, but (as far as I know) the situation hasn't changed much. Althoug the South Korean "Sunshine Policy" has now been stopped. Due to a change of government a bit over a year ago, not in response to the more recent naval conflict.
Two things the speaker said that stood out to me:
1. This humanitarian disaster is totally man-made.
2. This is a place in which the word "evil" really does apply.
The situation is surreal. One of the (many) moving points he made was that grown adults firmly believe that Americans have demon horns and pitch fork spiked tails.
These people have been on complete lockdown for fifty years and shut out from the world, both mentally and physically.
This leadership needs to be destroyed, they are committing too many atrocities.
"Those North Koreans who have never crossed the border have no way to make sense of their tribulations"
Just today someone on some Russian blog wrote about typical North Korean perceptions of life abroad... It was along the lines of "Yes, we know they are bullshitting it. It's all propaganda. We're told Americans are all hungry and unemployed, but we know anyway! Life is good there, you can get plenty of rice for your ration stamps! No millet, no barley, everyone can get rice if they want. Not only in the capital, anywhere in the country. And the rations are big!"
In a country where there's no meaningful national culture except that imposed by the state, it doesn't make sense to talk about the typical North Korean perception. Plenty of them just don't think capitalist society is wealthier, or if it is, it's because man is even more oppressed there.
In fact, I recall reading somewhere that some middle-class North Koreans, because they have access to American movies, think American life is full of violence, drama and gunfights... I wish I could remember where I read this. Talking to a visitng American, they asked him how he could live with bullets flying everywhere!
Maybe each country is different, but I would hesitate before making broad assumptions.
I grew up under a communist regime in Eastern Europe. I was 20 when the revolution took place. So I think I know pretty well what the situation was during the dictatorship.
There was a pretty big difference between the official propaganda and the way people were really thinking. But it would have been very difficult for someone "from outside" to get a glimpse of what was going on behind the layers upon layers of doublethink. The risks were simply too great for anyone to open up and give a piece of their mind to a total stranger. The true dimensions of this orwellian spirit are hard to fathom without having the unmediated experience of it.
I would say that people had a pretty good idea about "life in the West". Not a perfect image, many details were certainly lacking, but overall correct. However, they would not openly discuss about those things except with close relatives or very close friends. Beyond a certain point on the social graph, the official doctrine would automatically kick in and start getting mixed into the discourse.
So take everything you hear about NK with a grain of salt.
Again, maybe I should not extrapolate like this. Maybe NK is a special case. I guess we'll find out one day, after the insanity is over and that land becomes free again.
This article infuriated me. No amount of aid, negotiations, or activism is going to help the people of North Korea. Literally their only hope is a large invading army.
The world had its chance to end this epic tragedy for 50 years and it did nothing. Now the madman has some nukes and all options are out of the question.
In places of malnutrition, organizations that distribute food aid directly help starving people.
The UN have sanctions against North Korea because of its nuclear testing. Negotiations for nuclear disarmament (if successful) allow reductions of the economic sanctions. Improving its economy will directly help the people to some degree.
Activists help pressure governments into bringing up issues at summits (or at the very least they raise awareness in the general community) which can lead to better communication and trade ties.
So its clear that some amount of aid, negotiation and activism can help the people of a struggling country.
Invading a country in that situation will lead to loss of life. It is also expensive and will probably cause deep seated hatred for many years, which in history has led to more conflicts down the line.
The parent comment doesn't deserve 9 points, it doesn't even deserve 2 points. It just appeals to our propensities for aggression.
Your arguments are perfectly sound. However it has been tried, and has allowed unthinkable suffering. Why is a civilian casualty the worst possible scenario? The choice is between dying and a lifetime of living hell (north korea present day).
I think its time to recognize that war is sometimes the answer, whether or not you think it appeals to our human aggression.
I was in Eastern China when the news about the South Korean ship getting sunk came out and there were talks of a Korea/Korea war. I was ready to go volunteer as a civilian in South Korea to help a war effort if it came to that - I think the vast majority of the United States' wars in recent history have been poorly chosen, poorly executed, and morally questionable.
But the United States Government not taking out Communist China and Kim Sung-il's North Korea during the Korean War has to be one of the largest war mistakes in history. So much misery could have been avoided if they'd done it the way Chiang Kai-shek wanted and pushed through Korea into China. The Communists got a huge boost from seizing the Imperial Japanese weapons after WWII, but they were still far underequipped compared to the U.N. forces in South Korea. Then the Soviets got nuclear weapons and the stand-still happened, and lots of people suffered for it.
North Korea has to be one of the most vicious places in the world. I'd sign up pretty quickly if an international coalition went to tear down its government.
And how exactly would the many inevitable civillian deaths and the gruelling guerrilla that are certainly going to happen if the US invades north korea help anything?
It's partly because of war-mongering articles like this from the NYT that americans are so intent on war as a universal tool to "help" other countries.
If it makes you any happier, as soon as some very precious natural resource is found in North Korea you can be sure there will be US troops.
When the entire population is living in such complete misery, I don't really think that a guerrilla war would happen. The North Koreans aren't religious fanatics with some "higher cause" that would motivate them into a protracted insurgency.
A war-mongering NYT article? That is a contradiction in terms.
The only reason we haven't invaded is because China is protecting North Korea, and they're only really doing that because they don't want a massive flood of refugees into their country.
Korean nationalism. South Korea's army would be the "occupying country" so I really doubt this would cause an insurgency as severe as the ones in Afghanistan or Iraq.
I think this is a naive reading. The population may rejoice, but that doesn't mean there won't be "dead-enders" from the regime who would engage in a guerrilla war. There is a cadre of numerous North Korean special and irregular forces who are dedicated to the regime (through brain-washing or for their own reasons) who have been trained with guerrilla fighting and terrorism skills. Read about Korean Air Flight 858 and Kim Hyon Hui, and imagine how many more agents of that sort North Korea has in reserve, and how much damage they could do before they were stopped.
But all of this is a side show. The real reason North Korea has not been invaded is because the Seoul metro-area holds 24 million South Korean citizens, and most of it is extremely vulnerable to potential artillery bombardment from North Korea. Realistically the North Koreans could kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of South Koreans in no more than a day of shelling if war broke out on the peninsula. The only way for the south to effectively wage war would be to completely evacuate Seoul as a prelude, and that action alone would probably trigger a war before the evacuation was complete.
This, of course, doesn't even begin to factor in nuclear weapons.
The Korean peninsula is a long, ongoing hostage situation. North Korea holds its own population hostage as well as much of South Korea. This is why so little progress has been made on getting rid of the North Korean regime, there are only bad options and even worse options at this point.
It's liberal doublespeak. They support wars until they're started, then are shocked when they aren't over in two weeks, and people die. Clinton voted to enter Iraq.
Having grown in Eastern Europe (I was a freshman in college when the wave of revolutions swept over that part of the world), I'm not quite comfortable with that approach. Sure, you can topple the regime, Iraq-style. But there will be many civilian casualties. Make no mistake, there will be casualties no matter what, but a brute force intervention can potentially be much more disastrous than a change coming from inside (revolution).
I'm not sure just how deeply indoctrinated those people are. Is an uprising still possible? (my guess is yes) If so, a surgical-precision hit targeting "Dear Leader" might be enough to provide the initial spark. I'm sure this option is being considered somewhere, somehow. Whether it's deemed worth giving it a try, and whether it's successful remains to be seen.
War is always the worst option. Especially a war against somebody with tens of thousands artillery pieces on the border, with medium range missiles and with nuclear weapons that can reach something like 200 million people.
Iraq had the 4th largest army before Gulf War I. We obliterated it in less than 100 hours. And Iraq's technology was infinitely superior to that the North Koreans. The largest thing that is preventing us from killing these assholes is that Seoul is within distance of NK artillery.
Yeah, that is going to be a problem wrt pow camps when we have to house all those who surrender so they can get food, clean water and a bed to sleep in.
It is not all gloom and doom. I remember reading about Pyongyang University of Science and Technology and how it was initiated by this man - Kim Chin Kyung in fortune mag. His background is very interesting. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/04/1057179156781.h...
He tried to affect change in a different way. Not by anger which we all feel after reading the article. You have to admire his determination.
Immediate changes or changes caused by outside interference may not be a lasting or stable thing.
I believe at some point in time, the idiots ruling the place will want to follow their only friend, China, transformation. The question is when. Any form of aggression is only going to cost extra lives and delay this timetable. As for them making the first move in a war....hmm...US can vaporize the whole north peninsula and still have left over nukes.
This article illustrates why freedom (as in free speech and freedom to contract) is so important and why a state's attempts to restrict freedom should be vigorously opposed. Without the ability to control speech and restrict free contracts, especially the ability to enforce the use of state-controlled fiat currency, the North Korean government could not stay in power.
What is happening in North Korea is an illustration of what policies of control lead to. What's interesting is that most of the people of North Korea, because they don't know any better, don't realize the cause of their poverty.
We are in a similar situation with regards to fiat currency here in the west. Although we are not dirt poor like the North Koreans, we are still a lot poorer than we should be because of the huge portion of our economies consumed by government and especially because of fiat currency. Like the North Koreans, most people can't even conceive of a commodity-based, non-government-controlled, free-market currency. As a result, they are blind to the true cause of business cycles and their stagnant purchasing power.
The best way to increase wealth is to spread truth.
This article illustrates why freedom (as in free speech and freedom to contract) is so important and why a state's attempts to restrict freedom should be vigorously opposed. Without the ability to control speech and restrict free contracts, especially the ability to enforce the use of state-controlled fiat currency, the North Korean government could not stay in power.
What is happening in North Korea is an illustration of what policies of control lead to. What's interesting is that most of the people of North Korea, because they don't know any better, don't realize the cause of their poverty.
We are in a similar situation with regards to fiat currency here in the west. Although we are not dirt poor like the North Koreans, we are still a lot poorer than we should be because of the huge portion of our economies consumed by government and especially because of fiat currency. Like the North Koreans, most people can't even conceive of a commodity-based, non-government-controlled, free-market currency. As a result, they are blind to the true cause of business cycles and their stagnant purchasing power.
The best way to increase wealth is to spread truth.
54 comments
[ 1.9 ms ] story [ 139 ms ] threadpersonally I think the US should agree to take any refugees that come across the border into China. We can just take them to South Korea. Maybe that will make it easier for China to stop supporting this twisted situation.
I do agree though that these people need support.
Trust me, I know, I've been "there" (in a general sense, not the geographical location).
I don’t think simplistic portrayals of history and ideologies – like yours – are very helpful.
Here is my version: Identify which concepts, ideas and methods turned North Korea to the state it is today. Discourage the use of those concepts, ideas and methods whenever they are proposed. This is probably best done by pointing out errors or inconsistencies or by presenting alternatives.
They even have bona fide anti-tyranny credentials: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Social_Democrati...
And that’s just one example.
I should probably clarify that I really have no qualms with the first sentence of the grandparent’s comment. A generalization, maybe, but markets do work great in many situations and freedom created tremendous wealth and happiness. I just think that you shouldn’t use the term “Socialism” in the way the grandparent did. It just has too much history and too many ideas, concepts and methods connected with it.
Isn't what they aim for more like "social insurance"? Insurance seems to be a concept that can be reconciled with capitalism.
All I wanted to say is that they started out with Socialism and didn’t turn everything they touched into North Korea. Which means that tyranny is not the logical consequence of Socialism.
Even Milton Friedman was in favor of redistributing wealth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax
EDIT: I'm sorry to say, but it seems like the majority of people in the US use this word a lot without having any idea what it really means. It's become empty, a visceral cry, bypassing rational thought entirely. This too shall pass, I guess, but for now it's pretty sad.
also their talk at Google is very, very impressive... http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2531661047425836509
What does LiNK do?
We raise awareness about the human rights and humanitarian crisis in North Korea through the use of media and grassroots support. We help those who have fled their country because of this crisis – refugees – by sheltering them, advocating for them to governments all over the world, helping them resettle in countries that will accept them, and ultimately empowering them to live new lives.
It gives a very clear picture of what's happening in North Korea, and about the situation for North Koreans inside and outside of North Korea (I was going to write '...their country', but that doesn't really seem correct).
It is from 2007, but (as far as I know) the situation hasn't changed much. Althoug the South Korean "Sunshine Policy" has now been stopped. Due to a change of government a bit over a year ago, not in response to the more recent naval conflict.
Two things the speaker said that stood out to me: 1. This humanitarian disaster is totally man-made. 2. This is a place in which the word "evil" really does apply.
These people have been on complete lockdown for fifty years and shut out from the world, both mentally and physically.
This leadership needs to be destroyed, they are committing too many atrocities.
Just today someone on some Russian blog wrote about typical North Korean perceptions of life abroad... It was along the lines of "Yes, we know they are bullshitting it. It's all propaganda. We're told Americans are all hungry and unemployed, but we know anyway! Life is good there, you can get plenty of rice for your ration stamps! No millet, no barley, everyone can get rice if they want. Not only in the capital, anywhere in the country. And the rations are big!"
In fact, I recall reading somewhere that some middle-class North Koreans, because they have access to American movies, think American life is full of violence, drama and gunfights... I wish I could remember where I read this. Talking to a visitng American, they asked him how he could live with bullets flying everywhere!
I grew up under a communist regime in Eastern Europe. I was 20 when the revolution took place. So I think I know pretty well what the situation was during the dictatorship.
There was a pretty big difference between the official propaganda and the way people were really thinking. But it would have been very difficult for someone "from outside" to get a glimpse of what was going on behind the layers upon layers of doublethink. The risks were simply too great for anyone to open up and give a piece of their mind to a total stranger. The true dimensions of this orwellian spirit are hard to fathom without having the unmediated experience of it.
I would say that people had a pretty good idea about "life in the West". Not a perfect image, many details were certainly lacking, but overall correct. However, they would not openly discuss about those things except with close relatives or very close friends. Beyond a certain point on the social graph, the official doctrine would automatically kick in and start getting mixed into the discourse.
So take everything you hear about NK with a grain of salt.
Again, maybe I should not extrapolate like this. Maybe NK is a special case. I guess we'll find out one day, after the insanity is over and that land becomes free again.
The world had its chance to end this epic tragedy for 50 years and it did nothing. Now the madman has some nukes and all options are out of the question.
Good job world peace. Way ta go.
The UN have sanctions against North Korea because of its nuclear testing. Negotiations for nuclear disarmament (if successful) allow reductions of the economic sanctions. Improving its economy will directly help the people to some degree.
Activists help pressure governments into bringing up issues at summits (or at the very least they raise awareness in the general community) which can lead to better communication and trade ties.
So its clear that some amount of aid, negotiation and activism can help the people of a struggling country.
Invading a country in that situation will lead to loss of life. It is also expensive and will probably cause deep seated hatred for many years, which in history has led to more conflicts down the line.
The parent comment doesn't deserve 9 points, it doesn't even deserve 2 points. It just appeals to our propensities for aggression.
I think its time to recognize that war is sometimes the answer, whether or not you think it appeals to our human aggression.
But the United States Government not taking out Communist China and Kim Sung-il's North Korea during the Korean War has to be one of the largest war mistakes in history. So much misery could have been avoided if they'd done it the way Chiang Kai-shek wanted and pushed through Korea into China. The Communists got a huge boost from seizing the Imperial Japanese weapons after WWII, but they were still far underequipped compared to the U.N. forces in South Korea. Then the Soviets got nuclear weapons and the stand-still happened, and lots of people suffered for it.
North Korea has to be one of the most vicious places in the world. I'd sign up pretty quickly if an international coalition went to tear down its government.
It's partly because of war-mongering articles like this from the NYT that americans are so intent on war as a universal tool to "help" other countries.
If it makes you any happier, as soon as some very precious natural resource is found in North Korea you can be sure there will be US troops.
A war-mongering NYT article? That is a contradiction in terms.
The only reason we haven't invaded is because China is protecting North Korea, and they're only really doing that because they don't want a massive flood of refugees into their country.
No, but the North Korea regime is based upon fanatic nationalism, which isn't really that different.
But all of this is a side show. The real reason North Korea has not been invaded is because the Seoul metro-area holds 24 million South Korean citizens, and most of it is extremely vulnerable to potential artillery bombardment from North Korea. Realistically the North Koreans could kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of South Koreans in no more than a day of shelling if war broke out on the peninsula. The only way for the south to effectively wage war would be to completely evacuate Seoul as a prelude, and that action alone would probably trigger a war before the evacuation was complete.
This, of course, doesn't even begin to factor in nuclear weapons.
The Korean peninsula is a long, ongoing hostage situation. North Korea holds its own population hostage as well as much of South Korea. This is why so little progress has been made on getting rid of the North Korean regime, there are only bad options and even worse options at this point.
I'm not sure just how deeply indoctrinated those people are. Is an uprising still possible? (my guess is yes) If so, a surgical-precision hit targeting "Dear Leader" might be enough to provide the initial spark. I'm sure this option is being considered somewhere, somehow. Whether it's deemed worth giving it a try, and whether it's successful remains to be seen.
But that's not the point. The point is the potentially very high civilian casualties.
What is happening in North Korea is an illustration of what policies of control lead to. What's interesting is that most of the people of North Korea, because they don't know any better, don't realize the cause of their poverty.
We are in a similar situation with regards to fiat currency here in the west. Although we are not dirt poor like the North Koreans, we are still a lot poorer than we should be because of the huge portion of our economies consumed by government and especially because of fiat currency. Like the North Koreans, most people can't even conceive of a commodity-based, non-government-controlled, free-market currency. As a result, they are blind to the true cause of business cycles and their stagnant purchasing power.
The best way to increase wealth is to spread truth.
What is happening in North Korea is an illustration of what policies of control lead to. What's interesting is that most of the people of North Korea, because they don't know any better, don't realize the cause of their poverty.
We are in a similar situation with regards to fiat currency here in the west. Although we are not dirt poor like the North Koreans, we are still a lot poorer than we should be because of the huge portion of our economies consumed by government and especially because of fiat currency. Like the North Koreans, most people can't even conceive of a commodity-based, non-government-controlled, free-market currency. As a result, they are blind to the true cause of business cycles and their stagnant purchasing power.
The best way to increase wealth is to spread truth.