Through the course of a decade I've seen my country run into the ground. It certainly was a flawed one to begin with, but now we've lost any dignity or respect. I'm embarrassed of our leaders, and those who continue to support them.
Online, I've seen the Wikipedia ban being discussed among AKP supporters and the others, and a lot of people responded "what, should Wikipedia be above the law?". That is what we've been reduced to - propaganda is not even necessary anymore.
Man. I feel in these situations that allowing failure is the best course to enable people to learn from their mistakes.
But how do you let a whole country fail? Particularly when this attitude of preferring dictatorship seems to be growing in many countries. It's concerted, and I don't want that in my part of the world.
A good example would be how in the last decade several cities in California were allowed to "fail". IIRC there was an NPR segment on it or something. Anyways it was disastrous, over 50% of all local officials including policemen, fire fighters, teachers, park officials, garbage men, etc., were laid off. And this was in the middle of a functional state. One can only imagine what will happen in Turkey when combined with the refugee problem, sectarian violence in neighboring countries, terrorist organizations in neighboring countries, etc.
Sorry for the goose chase it was actually the book Boomerang by Michael Lewis which goes over the various debt crises of the past decade in Iceland, Ireland, and Greece. It ends with a section talking about the bankruptcy of Vallejo and it talks about the unsustainable pension situation in San Jose. A light, informative, and entertaining read IMO.
The numbers I listed are likely inaccurate and came from my 2+ yr old memory of reading the book.
Not the case of Turkey, but for the rest of the world, this is the response of the people to the "if you don't like globalism, deal with it" attitude from our leaders.
Leave. Its not easy (in fact I know its incredibly hard) but come to the US. Its not perfect, but even though we have an..argumentative democracy we (mostly) get along. Come and help us be better. Throw your voice and talent in. I have a Turkemen exchange student staying with us right now and they think of Turkey as being overwhelmingly better than Turkmenistan-come to the US which is the same but with Turkey and the Turkmenistan reversed :-)
I like a lot of things about the USA, but I'm not sure it's the best destination for a Turkish person.
The first reason is practicality. As Trump cracks down on H1B visas, immigrating will become even more difficult than it currently is.
The second reason is safety. Of course NYC/SF/LA are fine... But elsewhere in the country there is a rising tide of hate against Middle Easterns. In February, two Indian engineers working at Garmin were murdered in a Kansas bar [1] because a man mistook them for Iranians.
Recommend any of the north-western/central europe countries instead. Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, heck even Finland. Any of them is a better place to live in than the USA on almost every given axis of measure, and many of them already have plenty turks there providing help and support with integration.
> Leave. Its not easy (in fact I know its incredibly hard) but come to the US. Its not perfect, but even though we have an..argumentative democracy we (mostly) get along. Come and help us be better. Throw your voice and talent in.
Your comment is quite ironic to me: I am arranging my affairs so that if I am denied re-entry I can simply pick up somewhere else. (It's rather unlikely I'll be actually expelled).
Wait, what? Why should some guy who's had a green card for decades, and doesn't even speed while driving, worry? Who typically avoids making statements interpreted politically (this is an exception)?
It's because of the arbitrariness of the law. As someone foreign-born, with a south asian parent, and from time to time a startup tech CEO in Silicon Valley I win the Bannon trifecta. It doesn't matter how many jobs I've created over the years, or wealth for that matter: I would be a fool not to plan ahead.
> we (mostly) get along
Americans are typically super-nice people, unusually so. But recent actions have been...discouraging. The political rhetoric and action look different to someone in my position.
And the often-cited quasi-get-out-of-jail card is to become a US citizen. Well seriously: do you really want to affirmatively join a country if your only way to keep your human rights is to make a loyalty oath? And will it? It's not like the US has always treated its citizens humanely either. If things have really gotten to that point the better thing to do is just leave and create wealth and jobs elsewhere.
Don't get me wrong, I love working in Silicon Valley. But I can no longer afford to place all my bets here.
>I'm embarrassed of our leaders, and those who continue to support them.
Don't. Many countries are in a similar situation. Populism has already won over major countries (US, UK, Turkey, Russia, ... ) or is on a close #2 in many other countries.
In fact, I'd recommend to not even try to fight it head on at the moment - it's much wiser to sit back and try to understand why this is happening and what we can do about it.
The world is entering a very dangerous period - it might not be possible to stop this wave, so then maybe it's wise to think about plan B - what do do after the dust of the populist reign falls back.
Stay safe, stay wise, refuse violence regardless if the cause is 'good' or 'bad' (violence is always bad).
Maybe if Wikipedia would control the out-of-control editors, they would be more respected. Sadly, Wikipedia has always had a problem with truth because it documents everything and not everything can be checked without experts looking. There's a big issue with people removing good sources and adding bad ones or none at all to change the claims made in the article.
I think that's already understood about Wikipedia without the need to block the service entirely.
Clearly Turkey's President is sensitive of anything written negatively about him or his admin and is closing access to anything that contains that, just like China, Iran, etc.
Turkey is big and important enough (NATO + bridge with that area) not to care what others think.
Erdogan hates a FB posting or Wikipedia article? Ban them! Of course they aren't going to remove everything that displease an up and coming dictator. I think Turkey was saved until now by military coups.
I'm too young to have a wide enough frame of reference, and I'm sure a lot of this can be marked up to the type of stories that sell clicks.
But I can't help but to think that lately the news reads like a history textbook explaining the political situations that led up to a world war.
This isn't a fantasy novel. We have well established since WW2 that there will not be another global conflict like the world wars. There can't be. We are nuclear. We will continue to see regional proxy war conflicts between global superpowers, but outright declarations of war between NATO and anything else would be extinction.
Too many checks are in place on launch codes worldwide to let one lunatic end civilization. We were much, much closer to annihilation 40 years ago. This is little league instability.
> there will not be another global conflict like the world wars
If only one could guarantee such a thing. Yet we know there are madmen out there, angry enough to push that button, or lead armies to conquer more territory. Humans aren't much different today than we were 1,000 years ago.
That isn't a world war. You cannot have another Hitler who tries to push a ground army to conquer the territorial first world. The nukes would fly well before then, and since its not a world war, and just one isolated country going insane, we probably wouldn't resort to that - it would just be a counter insurgency from the way-better-armed NATO allies.
The only economies capable of waging a war "from the other side" on NATO are China and Russia, and the keys of their economies care too much about not dying to let some lunatic take over these states to wage a world war.
The early 20th century was a transitionary period where plutocrats learned that war between powers was no longer profitable. As soon as it stopped being an economically beneficial act to try to conquer, people stopped doing it. That is why Russia is able to still conquer foreign land - they know nobody cares enough to stop them, so they can just grab it for free. They also know they could never try that against a NATO member or first world nation, because it would end them. They are too rational in their behavior for that kind of stupidity.
Neither of us can predict the future with certainty.
Russia could keep taking non-NATO land, while new nations seek admission to NATO. At some point, Russia could dispute the status of a new-NATO member claiming they already held that territory or some such.
You can't know what increased tensions will lead to. Bay of Pigs and the cold war were very real. Tensions in the South China Sea and North Korea are real. The fondness that the US president holds for murderous conservative leaders, and his disdain for left-leaning leaders, are real.
I would mention the pact the UK signed with Poland days before Germany decided to invade anyway, however, you claim the circumstances are different now and that history is irrelevant. I'd say ignoring history is foolish.
When a noted hacker dies, the community usually mourns them. We all talk about how they impacted our life -- as we should.
When some political ruckus erupts, either we all gang together in our pre-defined groups and throw monkey poo at one another -- or we ignore it. HN has been better than most places at trying to ignore politics.
But every so often there's a story like Turkey -- it's politics, it non-nerd-related, and it's tragic.
We are watching a modern country go down the toilet, one little bit at a time. It's a slow motion train wreck where it's not just one person we'll mourn: it's an entire country.
My heart goes out to my friends living in Turkey and the rest of those folks who have to live through this. This is the rare story that I think folks all over can agree is an extremely sad one.
I'd love to Monday-morning quarterback this thing, talk about how NATO membership needs to be withdrawn and so forth -- but it's just too tragic right now. It's too much.
Blocking wikipedia was ridiculous and doesn't fix the problem of biased moderators doing propaganda on wikipedia articles. Many people believe russia and iran have teams for editing articles [1], so maybe it's better all governments do the same instead of blocking it. People should know that this is not Erdogan's decision, but a court's.
I think it's done on purpose on the news but purging 4000 officials is not related to any dictatorship power of Erdogan. Those officials came to those positions by just being a member of an islamic organisation and by preventing competent people taking the job. What is happening in Turkey is, we see Karma is working.
>so maybe it's better all governments do the same instead of blocking it.
This may be a difference between the east and west. The lightness in which "blocking" is mentioned. For the west you can replace that word with "censhorship" "fascism" for equal emotional impact.
Because freedom of speech and information is the one thing that binds us all in the West. Its why we can disagree non violently.
You may understand, though maybe not agree, with the strong anti Erdogan sentiment in the West. The bad guy has already been established and Erdogan is playing the part way too well.
And yes, we are fully aware of the hypocracy in terms of foreign policy, when it comes to this topic.
>So don't trick yourself by imitating the "we have values" game. Noone has.
I would argue that people do have values. Corporations and governments on the other end...
Keep in mind that its almost yesterday the west burried their notion of multi-culturalism. In the 90ties it was still considered racist to apply our moral values on people of another culture.
We were definately measuring with two different standards. And as a result, the censorship back then wasn't considered news.
Not that the hypocracy is gone. I dont think thats possible in a world where the west does any kind of bussiness with the Saudi's.
But you can see the change in perspective by for example looking at the general debate surrounding the working conditions in FoxConn.
In retrospect its all obvious. Globalism leads to an inevitable culture war. You cant have one world with multiple sets of moral rules. The working conditions in one place impact the availability of jobs and working conditions in other places.
Things have changed. Ten years ago, freedom of press in the West would be something that we would fight (and kill) for, but we were not applying it to exotic cultures. Nowadays, freedom of the press for any nation is an instant "are you part of modern civilisation" or are you an enemy choice.
I completely understand your frustration. The thing about public opinion is that its not like policy. Its inherently schizofrenic and contradictionary.
I am trying to explain the general sentiment towards Erdogan and why he has zero friends left in the West. It doesnt mean i think its actually this black and white.
The thing is: we have seen his speeches on TV. We didnt before. He called Holland nazi's for example. That alone has completely ruined any credits he had in Europe. No western politician can even smile at him right now and politically survive. He has no future and with him Turkey doesnt either and this has nothing to do with other political factions in Turkey.
The purge ( and the whitelists) are lower level followers of the Fethullah Gulen ( a Muslim Imam settled in Pennsylvania ) sect, a cold war religious network which penetrated a vast part of state apparatus as part of a Nato plan to prevent a communist revolution to move the country towards the Soviets which is part of the Super Gladio. During this 30 years the Gulen people in full secrecy, stole national exam papers for many institutions, blackmailed and jailed and sometimes killed anyone on their roads. Erdogan, EU and USA saw them as best friends to secretly mute any opposition.
After 2012 Obama's reluctance of putting American soldiers on the ground paved the way for Pentagon/CIA to intervene by toppling governments in middle East and Africa and use killer drones to kill enemies. As democratically elected Erdogan and CIA's best friend Gulen went into a full stage war on who is going to manage the county, the weird Washington network (read Michael Rubin and Stratfor) made a last ditch effort to topple the democratically elected government of Turkey by using the alien chestburst tactic with Gulen sect. The members of the sect failed as they don't have a strong idea to offer to he people except finding some support in Washington and Europe.
NYT echoes part of the small Washington circle pissed off because the coup failed.
Turkey is a sophisticated semi industrialized country with strong globalization and A military coup by a religious actor won't work here as opposed to Sisi's in Egypt.
Actually we are living the seismic after effects of the fall of the Soviets, as Nato, EU and Nafta, South Asia all face major changes in coming years.
So don't worry too much about Turks. we ll do fine. In a couple of years there is an increased chance that democratically new movements will win against Erdogan.
No dramas and if you need dramas look at every Western country with their own major problems.
30 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 73.9 ms ] threadOnline, I've seen the Wikipedia ban being discussed among AKP supporters and the others, and a lot of people responded "what, should Wikipedia be above the law?". That is what we've been reduced to - propaganda is not even necessary anymore.
But how do you let a whole country fail? Particularly when this attitude of preferring dictatorship seems to be growing in many countries. It's concerted, and I don't want that in my part of the world.
The numbers I listed are likely inaccurate and came from my 2+ yr old memory of reading the book.
The first reason is practicality. As Trump cracks down on H1B visas, immigrating will become even more difficult than it currently is.
The second reason is safety. Of course NYC/SF/LA are fine... But elsewhere in the country there is a rising tide of hate against Middle Easterns. In February, two Indian engineers working at Garmin were murdered in a Kansas bar [1] because a man mistook them for Iranians.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Olathe,_Kansas_shooting
Your comment is quite ironic to me: I am arranging my affairs so that if I am denied re-entry I can simply pick up somewhere else. (It's rather unlikely I'll be actually expelled).
Wait, what? Why should some guy who's had a green card for decades, and doesn't even speed while driving, worry? Who typically avoids making statements interpreted politically (this is an exception)?
It's because of the arbitrariness of the law. As someone foreign-born, with a south asian parent, and from time to time a startup tech CEO in Silicon Valley I win the Bannon trifecta. It doesn't matter how many jobs I've created over the years, or wealth for that matter: I would be a fool not to plan ahead.
> we (mostly) get along
Americans are typically super-nice people, unusually so. But recent actions have been...discouraging. The political rhetoric and action look different to someone in my position.
And the often-cited quasi-get-out-of-jail card is to become a US citizen. Well seriously: do you really want to affirmatively join a country if your only way to keep your human rights is to make a loyalty oath? And will it? It's not like the US has always treated its citizens humanely either. If things have really gotten to that point the better thing to do is just leave and create wealth and jobs elsewhere.
Don't get me wrong, I love working in Silicon Valley. But I can no longer afford to place all my bets here.
Don't. Many countries are in a similar situation. Populism has already won over major countries (US, UK, Turkey, Russia, ... ) or is on a close #2 in many other countries.
In fact, I'd recommend to not even try to fight it head on at the moment - it's much wiser to sit back and try to understand why this is happening and what we can do about it.
The world is entering a very dangerous period - it might not be possible to stop this wave, so then maybe it's wise to think about plan B - what do do after the dust of the populist reign falls back.
Stay safe, stay wise, refuse violence regardless if the cause is 'good' or 'bad' (violence is always bad).
Clearly Turkey's President is sensitive of anything written negatively about him or his admin and is closing access to anything that contains that, just like China, Iran, etc.
Erdogan hates a FB posting or Wikipedia article? Ban them! Of course they aren't going to remove everything that displease an up and coming dictator. I think Turkey was saved until now by military coups.
Too many checks are in place on launch codes worldwide to let one lunatic end civilization. We were much, much closer to annihilation 40 years ago. This is little league instability.
If only one could guarantee such a thing. Yet we know there are madmen out there, angry enough to push that button, or lead armies to conquer more territory. Humans aren't much different today than we were 1,000 years ago.
The only economies capable of waging a war "from the other side" on NATO are China and Russia, and the keys of their economies care too much about not dying to let some lunatic take over these states to wage a world war.
The early 20th century was a transitionary period where plutocrats learned that war between powers was no longer profitable. As soon as it stopped being an economically beneficial act to try to conquer, people stopped doing it. That is why Russia is able to still conquer foreign land - they know nobody cares enough to stop them, so they can just grab it for free. They also know they could never try that against a NATO member or first world nation, because it would end them. They are too rational in their behavior for that kind of stupidity.
Russia could keep taking non-NATO land, while new nations seek admission to NATO. At some point, Russia could dispute the status of a new-NATO member claiming they already held that territory or some such.
You can't know what increased tensions will lead to. Bay of Pigs and the cold war were very real. Tensions in the South China Sea and North Korea are real. The fondness that the US president holds for murderous conservative leaders, and his disdain for left-leaning leaders, are real.
I would mention the pact the UK signed with Poland days before Germany decided to invade anyway, however, you claim the circumstances are different now and that history is irrelevant. I'd say ignoring history is foolish.
When some political ruckus erupts, either we all gang together in our pre-defined groups and throw monkey poo at one another -- or we ignore it. HN has been better than most places at trying to ignore politics.
But every so often there's a story like Turkey -- it's politics, it non-nerd-related, and it's tragic.
We are watching a modern country go down the toilet, one little bit at a time. It's a slow motion train wreck where it's not just one person we'll mourn: it's an entire country.
My heart goes out to my friends living in Turkey and the rest of those folks who have to live through this. This is the rare story that I think folks all over can agree is an extremely sad one.
I'd love to Monday-morning quarterback this thing, talk about how NATO membership needs to be withdrawn and so forth -- but it's just too tragic right now. It's too much.
I think it's done on purpose on the news but purging 4000 officials is not related to any dictatorship power of Erdogan. Those officials came to those positions by just being a member of an islamic organisation and by preventing competent people taking the job. What is happening in Turkey is, we see Karma is working.
[1][in Turkish] https://eksisozluk.com/wikipediadaki-fars-sovenizmini-engell...
This may be a difference between the east and west. The lightness in which "blocking" is mentioned. For the west you can replace that word with "censhorship" "fascism" for equal emotional impact.
Because freedom of speech and information is the one thing that binds us all in the West. Its why we can disagree non violently.
You may understand, though maybe not agree, with the strong anti Erdogan sentiment in the West. The bad guy has already been established and Erdogan is playing the part way too well.
And yes, we are fully aware of the hypocracy in terms of foreign policy, when it comes to this topic.
Your love for "Freedom of speech and information" didn't stop NYT, EU and the western echo chambers cheering Erdogan a leader for democracy.
So don't trick yourself by imitating the "we have values" game. Noone has.
I would argue that people do have values. Corporations and governments on the other end...
Keep in mind that its almost yesterday the west burried their notion of multi-culturalism. In the 90ties it was still considered racist to apply our moral values on people of another culture.
We were definately measuring with two different standards. And as a result, the censorship back then wasn't considered news.
Not that the hypocracy is gone. I dont think thats possible in a world where the west does any kind of bussiness with the Saudi's.
But you can see the change in perspective by for example looking at the general debate surrounding the working conditions in FoxConn.
In retrospect its all obvious. Globalism leads to an inevitable culture war. You cant have one world with multiple sets of moral rules. The working conditions in one place impact the availability of jobs and working conditions in other places.
Things have changed. Ten years ago, freedom of press in the West would be something that we would fight (and kill) for, but we were not applying it to exotic cultures. Nowadays, freedom of the press for any nation is an instant "are you part of modern civilisation" or are you an enemy choice.
I completely understand your frustration. The thing about public opinion is that its not like policy. Its inherently schizofrenic and contradictionary.
I am trying to explain the general sentiment towards Erdogan and why he has zero friends left in the West. It doesnt mean i think its actually this black and white.
The thing is: we have seen his speeches on TV. We didnt before. He called Holland nazi's for example. That alone has completely ruined any credits he had in Europe. No western politician can even smile at him right now and politically survive. He has no future and with him Turkey doesnt either and this has nothing to do with other political factions in Turkey.
After 2012 Obama's reluctance of putting American soldiers on the ground paved the way for Pentagon/CIA to intervene by toppling governments in middle East and Africa and use killer drones to kill enemies. As democratically elected Erdogan and CIA's best friend Gulen went into a full stage war on who is going to manage the county, the weird Washington network (read Michael Rubin and Stratfor) made a last ditch effort to topple the democratically elected government of Turkey by using the alien chestburst tactic with Gulen sect. The members of the sect failed as they don't have a strong idea to offer to he people except finding some support in Washington and Europe.
NYT echoes part of the small Washington circle pissed off because the coup failed.
Turkey is a sophisticated semi industrialized country with strong globalization and A military coup by a religious actor won't work here as opposed to Sisi's in Egypt.
Actually we are living the seismic after effects of the fall of the Soviets, as Nato, EU and Nafta, South Asia all face major changes in coming years.
So don't worry too much about Turks. we ll do fine. In a couple of years there is an increased chance that democratically new movements will win against Erdogan.
No dramas and if you need dramas look at every Western country with their own major problems.