Ask HN: I don't want to be a founder anymore
Using a throwaway account because there's a lot to lose from speaking about how I feel.
I founded a company several years ago. Fast forward to today and we're profitable, growing steadily, debt free and are about to be acquired (there are LOIs on the table). You may ask what the problem is? Well, the problem is that I'm supremely unhappy.
Each morning for the past couple months, my first thought has been "What could today be like if I didn't work here?". I drift off into exploring what it would be like to work at Wal Mart, or the construction site outside, or as a bagger at a grocery store. It seems so stress free. Then, my phone starts ringing for the day and I'm snapped back to reality. This morning, I locked myself in the bathroom with the shower running (don't want wife to know) and cried my eyes out. I haven't cried in many years. It felt great, but only for an hour.
So, from my (possibly skewed) point of view, I have 2 options:
- Quit, which effectively kills any acquisition and likely the company as well
- Suck it up and work on the same thing for 2-5 more years
I'd been mulling over a third option (hire someone to do my day-to-day), but don't know how to make it work. The product is just too complicated (tons of domain knowledge required) for someone to come in and take over. Additionally, the product just isn't that interesting (glorified CRUD app) and it's been hard to retain developers.
Please tell me I'm missing something! Maybe I'm just being ridiculous- it's getting hard to tell. Is it common for a Founder to go through this train of thought before an acquisition? Is there a trick to convince yourself you want to keep doing this? Maybe I'm suffering from some kind of depression and need drugs.
Any advice appreciated.
- A founder in pain
526 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 356 ms ] threadDoes the acquisition involves you signing a contract and being forced to stick around for a few years?
Yes they range from 3 to 5 years, with much of the compensation coming from future earnings.
Seems to me that if you want to cut the earnout to 1 year in exchange for a smaller total package, that should be something they would entertain.
Another option is to forget the acquisitions for the moment and bring in someone else to run the business, technical enough that they can pick up the details quickly. Bring them in as a co-founder; offer them maybe 20% of the company (with 4-year vesting that accelerates on acquisition) and explain that you want to turn over the day-to-day to them. Once they're comfortable running the business, you can resume trying to sell it, or just sit on a beach and sip mai-tais.
It is not possible - no offence intended - that you managed to lock yourself in a position such as the one you described, where your product/company/service/whatever can't live one week without you in the office.
And by the same token it is not possible that someone - knowingly - is going to give you money for something that can only work if you are not only at the steering wheel, but also doing the most relevant work all the time (it would be far too risky).
Now that is more clear that the offer is actually largely linked to future earnings (and obviously your future work) it sounds a lot like they are buying you and your competences (and not your company/whatever).
Maybe you should really talk first with someone that can help you with your (momentary) crisis (that would be psychological support, if you can stay away from prescribed drugs would be advisable) then - as soon as you have regained some objectiveness and a peaceful state of mind - take some time to talk with your immediate associates (be them co-founders, executives or employees) and try to make a plan to solve those problems (which seemingly essentially revolve around either missing resources in the company or missing attitude to delegate some of your work).
Maybe a nice, long vacation would be a good step before making any drastic decisions. Could you arrange to take 3-4 weeks off and go somewhere quiet and relax for a bit before deciding?
I do think I'd regret not following through, you're right. The question is whether that regret is worse than multiple years of hating work. I guess I'm probably the only one who can answer that.
I just took a week off and went out of town. Although everyone did manage to leave me alone while I was gone, people tried to do my job because they didn't want to keep customers waiting. That resulted in a lot of problems when I got back (they had no idea how to do my job).
I'm still paying for it now. Maybe I do just have to force another > 1 week break and deal with the consequences later.
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. It is helpful.
https://youtu.be/xdfeXqHFmPI
The size of the house you own and get to say fu from will vary, but the sentiment is the same as long as you own it.
Mine were milestone based and I negotiated for 25% to be time-based. The company underwent a big re-org and the new leadership had their own projects which were prioritized so the milestones were never realized.
Just some food for thought while you're nearing LOI stage.
Invested with reasonable money managers, you'll never again have to trade your life for a paycheck.
Finally, train your replacement(s).
There's your problem right there. You need to start training someone to do your job so that you can go away without having things fall apart. You need to do this regardless of whether or not you want to walk away because you could get hit by a bus tomorrow. Your main goal as a founder should always be to insure that the company can get along without any one particular person, including you. If you don't know how to make that happen, hire someone who does.
P.S. I've been a principal in half a dozen startups, so I've seen it all. If you want to talk you will find a link to my contact info in my profile.
In fact, maybe make that into a company policy where you do that one week per quarter such that the company doesn't fold if you get hit by a bus. Employees may actually like the idea.
I've done it a few times during summer while studying CS to pay for my bills. They do shifts from 4am-12pm, or 12pm-8pm, or even night shift... They treat you like a bad kid, you get humiliated 24h/7 by who ever is higher in the "hierarchy". On top of that your body takes a hit since most of these jobs are very physical. You get back home sore, exhausted, sometimes it turns into real health issues like tendonitis, chronic lower back pain, etc. Trust me after 2 months working at a factory you'd hate your life. You'd hate yourself. Some people get stuck in this nasty world for decades...
You-I-we, the tech people, love to think there's a better world out there by lowering the level to its bare minimum. It's actually the opposite effect but you have to experience it to understand what I'm talking about. So go back to work and keep cashing out, or, go fishing on an island.
Regardless, the OP wasn't wishing to own a construction company or manage a grocery store. He was wishing to do individual contributor work in a field that uses his body more. It is not arrogant to want that. OP may find after some months that they are ready to go back to tech, and it seems that would be a good outcome since the burnout would have abated.
That is not unheard of even in programming gigs. I've seen it around me, coming from bad management. I've been exposed to it but I've been good enough (at least compared my workplace) and managed gathering enough respect from both my coworkers and my superiors that I've been shielded from it. But it happens, they feel you're new, they feel they have an ounce of authority above you and they go crazy with every mistake(and mistakes happen).
Less importantly, I agree construction sites are likely not a good candidate for the grass is greener perspective, but you're seriously overstating the difficulty of grocery store work. It's not abject misery the way you describe it. When I was younger I too worked in jobs like retail, restaurant and grocery stores. No, it wasn't as fun and liberating an environment as tech, but it was absolutely a more simple environment to work in. There was far less responsibility, and the stakes are lower when the job is basically just a throwaway one and not impactful for your career. The worst that happens in that context is you fail to sell as many TVs as your manager wanted, or you bring out the wrong food to a table, or you misscan an item as a cashier.
My point here is that I believe the OP is having ideation about jobs that seem less complex, not necessarily less difficult. This goes hand in hand with burnout - those jobs are not as fulfilling, but the OP would not have nearly as much responsibility, and the responsibility of running a successful startup on the verge of acquisition that he doesn't enjoy is clearly causing him a lot of anxiety. What the OP needs is an empathic perspective, not a lecture about how the grass isn't always greener.
Have you ever had an assistant manager in her mid 30s shout at you the generic company values off of the company propaganda posters in a closed door meeting because you weren't quite living the company line? I have....
i probably could not work it long time, but if you are stressing in that line of work its you not the job.
I personally don't believe there's anything inherent to any job that makes it meaningful or not meaningful; you admit that your opinion is subjective but then provide a backhanded compliment about the parent being able to enjoy "meaningless shit work"...it doesn't sound like you've conceded that it's subjective there. With a few poignant exceptions, you can choose whether or not to derive meaning and enjoyment from a job, even if you recognize that it's not what you ultimately want to do.
I felt much better after a day of unloading trucks in a wearhouse than I do now coming home from a day of sitting in an office chair programming. Sitting all day is terrible for your body and it's exausting to boot. One of the biggest shocks of my entire life was the first day I got home from my first programming gig and being more tired than coming home from the job I was working a week before (food service) (1)
(1) https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/23/stand-up-wh...
But working outside, with my hands, making something tangible I could see at the end of the day? Fuck yeah man. It was deeply satisfying.
Unfortunately, I had the aptitude and training to do more demanding, less fun, arguably more important work, so no more ladders and hammers for me.
Programming welding robots, laser cutters , CNC milling machines and making whatever you can dream up is pretty fun. I was in Las Vegas last week walking through the fancy hotels and casinos admiring all the laser cut steel they use in architecture now. It was fun to tell my wife that I could make the giant metal cards at the ARIA poker room, exactly the same on the new machines I just got. She was quite impressed. We are planning our backyard remodel using all the machines at work. Should be quite spectacular when complete.
I realised I needed to do 2 things: 1/ Figure out what you REALLY want to do. 2/ Figure out how your work life can support it. Is your work life not supporting it? Figure out what you need to change to make it get there.
For me, that meant switching jobs to something that allows remote work and unlimited vacation and organising my work day so that I can just put in 8-5 and leave work at the door.
Also, try taking an open-ended vacation. Don't make any plans, just get the time off and do what feels right.
For 1 week, write down everything that you do for your company, and then group the like tasks in order to figure out how many/what type of person(people) to hire/train. Start looking for that person, while writing down everything that you do the 2nd week. Rinse and repeat as you go through the month/quarter, and you should develop a better idea of what it will take to replace you.
The LOI writers know that you are doing the job of multiple people, and that you are indispensable, and that's why they want to require you to stay. Make yourself replaceable, and then there would be no need for you to stay. Work from a beach if you want, but take action now to permanently lessen your stress.
Feel free to reach out if you want to talk (or just vent) privately. You can find me through info in my HN profile.
Having a non-unity bus factor is not only good for your sanity (you can take breaks, or quit) but also good financially. And even if you continue working, increased documentation and sharing domain knowledge can only make the day-to-day go more smoothly.
First of all it sounds a lot to me like you are suffering from burnout. You need to see someone about this (not necessarily a health professional, perhaps a mentor or confidant, someone accessible, whose opinions you respect)
You have come a long way and achieved something that is not trivial. You are entitled to cash out. I am however wary of the terms you hint at. I would NEVER do a deal where a significant portion of my compensation is dependent on future income from the business I am selling. NEVER. Once the acquirer takes over, decisions are out of your hands and it is his/her prerogative to grow the business or run it down. Why should you tie yourself to such an uncertain future ? My reading of your situation is that you should try to get a deal where you stay on only long enough to transfer your knowledge to your replacement. 1 year is sufficient for that; 4 years essentially makes you a bonded servant. Have you retained the services of a professional to help with the acquisition? If 'No', do so asap.
I mention these points because although your intention is not to stir up a debate about terms of purchase, I think they stand out as potentially significant stressors.
Every field looks green when you are in burn-out-land but resist the temptation to think that dish-washing, bar tending or whatever menial task you presently romanticize, represents a step up from your present condition. I agree with @bsvalley. His answer is on point.
I would talk to the missus. That's what she's there for - moral support; but its difficult to give support to a person who hasn't asked for it.
Finally. I will say congratulations! You are on the last lap of a very difficult race. Not many people get to this point. Don't falter here. The reward for all your effort and sacrifice will be financial freedom, time for leisure and a sense of accomplishment - and maybe opportunity (on much better terms) to become a bartender after all :)
find better beach :D
Yeah, for me it's fishing or hunting...requiring a total disengagement from technology and (most) people.
Beaches are fun, but I wouldn't consider them a truly contemplative vacation unless it's some super expensive, exclusive, far away place...and like you said that's not for everyone.
[0] https://www.amazon.com/E-Myth-Revisited-Small-Businesses-Abo...
However, the longer vacation is good advice. When I was severely burned out at a previous job (start-up) I was eventually fired because I couldn't continue the 70 hours a week and have the same, high output as I originally did when I started (I was averaging 70 hours a week for almost two years in addition to a long commute time and this is after working with the same people at a job before that where I was working about the same 70 hours for almost 3 years where I was also expected to have high output).
When that happened I ended up having roughly 3 months off of work. Joined a new company and it was amazing. My burn-out, which plagued me for years and caused an anxiety attack so strong I thought I was going to die of a heart attack (very severe chest pain; tried explaining to my 2 year old what to do if "daddy passes out") to feel essentially dissolved.
Burn out isn't fixed within your typical vacation period at a job. Most of my friends who have been, or are still, burned out have never had it go away until after taking months of time off.
Essentially what I was getting at was: a short vacation isn't going to do anything. If he can make it so he can take a very long vacation then that means he either transitioned enough so others can run it for him or he quit. Either way sounded like it would work out for him at least which is what I was aiming for with my comment.
In most cases, the anxiety and stress from a work environment didn't happen overnight, and it's not going to go away overnight.
I do think most people don't quite get that until they're in the thick of it. Seen it with more than a couple of friends, and in every case, the only option was to walk away and switch work situations. If it's causing you that much stress, there's almost never a great reason to go back vs getting something new.
First, physically resting and getting outdoors in the summer months can certainly just help you rebalance enough to make good decisions. You might realize that very short-term problems are weighing more heavily on you than you realize.
Second, it's a test of how indispensable you are at work, and forces other people to try to do things before asking you. You'll learn which things you need to make sure to train them to take over when you leave, and they'll remember the answers and approaches better if they have to figure them out themselves.
I guess it's possible that two weeks would cause irreparable damage... I have no idea what you should do in that case. I can't say I'd stick with it in that scenario, that's a horrible trap to get stuck in especially if you can't imagine it getting better.
But taking a break from the stressor, and/or delegating some of the work and stress, yes.
IMHO
CEO's, Hedgefund Managers, Sport Stars, they all talk to psychologists. Give it a try.
Speaking as someone who just recently experienced burnout for the first time in his career (along with losing several friends in the past year), and is now taking it easy for a while, you owe it to yourself to speak to someone about what you're feeling.
You've gotten to the point where you're hiding in the bathroom with the water running so your wife doesn't know you're crying. There is no shame in admitting weakness, and you have a lot to be proud of in your position. Let people in who can help.
While you're at it, take a vacation (even if only for a few days) and clear your head. If you don't want to talk to a professional, go somewhere with your wife and talk about what you're feeling.
You take your car in for regular maintenance even if nothing is wrong. Is your car that much more important than your mental health?
That's pretty easy to solve: you don't have to tell anyone except perhaps a spouse (who should understand once the context is fully explained).
If it is a touchy topic for you as an individual and/or if you live in a small town or otherwise have a situation where someone might see you, make the inference and make it into an issue, this can be a not insignificant logistical detail to deal with. Just because for you personally all would be fine by simply not mentioning it doesn't mean this is true for everyone.
In my experience, a friend and a spouse or a parent cannot replace a psychologist. I think the reason for that is because psychologists listen differently. In whatever you are telling them, you are hiding a call for help in a sense. A friend or a wife might not spot that call for help. Additionally, a psychologist can answer better than a spouse or a friend does, I think.
Maybe that was just my experience, but I felt I had a much better talk with a psychologist than with a friend. Probably, because the barrier is much lower. Like you don't have to worry about them judging you or whatever.
Do be wary, though. This is a very trusted position. If you sense something is not right, or that the psychologist is moving you sideways or backward instead of forward, don't go back. Find another professional manipulator willing to manipulate you honestly.
Wish I was more determined and following my own advice.
Hit me up - email is on profile.
What is it with this romantic view of supposedly stress free jobs of filling shelves with food or digging a hole for a garden tree ( the easiest thing in construction ).
I feel your pain since I get similar feelings as you sometimes but then I remember 20 something me doing roofing and breaking ice on a path with a big ass hammer for tourists to enjoy a walk around the lake. It sucks.
I can only offer you one solution that I would personally do if I were at your place right now... Sell asap and move on.
Call me lazy but I would never want the responsibility of being a founder. Seems like much too much to worry about.
I've had my share of these jobs as well, and they pay terribly. Living hand-to-mouth is a stress in itself. And I had zero dependents. Being a founder is exceptionally stressful, but don't overcompensate and pretend that life as a minimum wager is carefree.
The proof in the pudding is this: people don't move into these jobs if they have something else going on. Hospitality is a classic example - full of young people, but unless they become managers or chefs, they're out the door as soon as they can do something else. There are very few middle-aged people working on their feet in hospitality.
Believe it or not some people don't actually believe the work is beneath them.
What you are saying is like "living without a wage is stressful, being a homemaker doesn't pay a wage, thus nobody is a homemaker if they have the ability to get a job." Of course that is totally untrue. People aren't exactly like you. Being a homemaker would be a nightmare for me - I hire a housekeeper and I absolutely hate kids. However, I can appreciate many people find enjoyment in that, just not me.
I was talking about work stress - I assume a founder of a successful startup probably has enough money in reserve to be able to take a pay cut, even if temporarily.
I know a few people in hospitality who genuinely enjoy it and have the ability to do other jobs - they just would rather not. I have a friend with an engineering degree, ended up hating engineering and tried several "good" jobs. Hated them all, always ended up back in food service. She finally made peace with the fact she really really likes doing food service and that's what she decided to do permanently. Another friend got a business degree, hated being in the business field, though it was too cut throat, didn't like what the felt she had to do to get ahead. Decided to dedicate her life to non-profits for a fraction of the salary she could get anywhere else but feels it's worth it. I know a guy in his 50s who washes dishes 5 days a week. He gave up his cushy office job to do that. He said office work was getting him down and he has enough money to take the pay cut. My aunt cleans offices for a living, enjoys doing so, doesn't want to do anything else. Shes an immagrant and her husband owns a very successful business. She has absolutely no monetary need to work yet she still cleans offices at night. My mom's best friend works at Kohl's, no need to, just wants to, gave up a (State) government position to do so.
I truly enjoyed most "low skilled" work I did. I also enjoy being a programmer, for the most part. There's a lot I miss about the old days though. The pay isn't one of them, of course. I really miss moving around heavy objects, oddly enough, as unusual as that may sound. Just doing so for the hell of it (gym excersing) is incredibly unappealing to me - I enjoy seeing the fruits of my labor. I don't want to sit there lifting meaningless weight, I want to be moving objects from one location to the other and have some sort of satisfaction afterwards that I met a business objective and earned my salary.
Right now I'm programmer until I can afford not to be. Programming for me is only a means to an end, to be financially independent/semi retired. I sound like someone unhappy but I actually enjoy programming, just not as much as physical labor.
- Let it all out to a psychologist (definitely this)
- Take a holiday somewhere sunny and not too crowded (definitely this)
- And most definitely this, your new job: how you can delegate your work as much as possible, AND how best to upskill your new "minions"
Hang in there, OP :)
Edit to add: don't forget to talk to your wife about your real state!
#1PercentProblems
You need to make an important hire- you are missing a systematic. See, creatives like you are awesome at solving problems but hate to have structure and order because it doesn't allow you 100% freedom. But, as a result, you just have 100% creativity/problem solving- which is draining. The worst thing is, you can't even create the order you need to manage these things.
Systematics create structure and order in dynamic environments.
I wrote a book about this and other problems with innovation and how to solve them. It will be published later this year, but happy to provide an advanced copy to help work through seeing the problems you are facing.
The systematics in your business are meant to free you from the ongoing crap that you are experiencing.
This is also good advice and a good book.
What I add to this aspect of innovation is a differentiation between standardizable work and original work. OP's approach to creating systems are different for each.
The other thing I define is the roles in innovation; creatives, systematics, and bureaucrats. The problem I see with OP is that creatives usually cannot implement the systemization that is required for the "franchise prototypes", let alone manage the system.
What I add to this aspect of innovation is a differentiation between standardizable work and original work. OP's approach to creating systems are different for each.
The other thing I define is the roles in innovation; creatives, systematics, and bureaucrats. The problem I see with OP is that creatives usually cannot implement the systemization that is required for the "franchise prototypes", let alone manage the system.
You start by documenting everything you do. Don't start by trying to get your documentation perfect- think of an MVP for it and improve over time. If it's boring, use a voice-to-text app (I hear Naturally Speaking is excellent now) and dictate it.
Get someone in there to do the job. Pay them well. Work on strategy and make your exit. Good luck!
I dealt with burnout several times. The only thing that helped me deal with it was turn off electronic devices after certain time of the day and before certain time of the day. No tv, no phone, no laptop, not even your favorite meditation app. Do anything which does not involve electronics or information heavy.
Much other advice about how to deal with such issues over long term are easier said than done. Some of my favorite ideas are
Build sustainability into your engineering, product and sales process. It's like running a marathon. If you run too fast in the beginning, you get tired so easily.
Be less outcome dependent and more discipline driven. If you plan to make incremental progress, you will eventually have something stable and it gets easy to continue. If you need a constant rush of positive outcomes to get you to do something, it does not build resilience to last longer.
I know someone who just came out of a job where he was hired to take over most of the day-to-day for a founder in a similar situation. It might be useful to discuss the situation and see what recommendations he has. Feel free to connect via Linkedin and I can put you in touch.
A lot of them shifted into roles with different but less critical responsibilities. One person basically just turned into an evangelist, meeting customers and painting visions. It wasn't easy for them to keep going, but it's easier to keep going in that type of position because they weren't responsible for keeping the lights on.
I realize this isn't an answer, but maybe this is a way to keep going if you decide to stay with whomever acquires your company.
>The product is just too complicated (tons of domain knowledge required) for someone to come in and take over.
This is a very heavy burden. I was here once as an individual contributor and I ended up in the same state you are in now. It was absolutely awful. Even if somebody can't take over 100%, can they take over 25%?
Also, as others have said, find somebody to talk to. Assuming you have a decent marriage, cry in front of your wife so she knows what's going on. It's hard to move when you feel the whole world is resting on your shoulders.
Your personal support network is exactly what you need to be able to lean on to get through stressful times.
The reality is that it's a job like any other, but with way more stress, hours, responsibility, and people's livelihood depending on you not fucking up.
A big part of the problem is that it is rather difficult to talk about burnout, depression, etc with others as people think you are living the dream. Not to mention, it's expected you keep up appearances as the person steering the ship.
The only way to survive this and keep going is to find people you open up to, to talk things out and work through the shit. It kind of sounds like you are keeping this from your wife, at least in part, which is a big red flag. If you don't feel comfortable sharing everything with your partner in life, who can you talk to for support?
Don't keep on trying to fix this on your own.
train + delegate + automate