pretty abrupt email went out to some (not all) Tilt users, stating that after today, no new campaigns can be created, and after June 4, no more funds can be collected from existing campaigns. it had the feel a rude landlord booting you out of your apartment that you've spent thousands of dollars on, with 1 week's notice
Wow. That's some incredibly short notice. One would think given the much larger company that acquired them, they'd be able to give a reasonable grace period before shutting it down.
Paypal eventually always pays out, I've yet to hear of a confirmed case where they eventually did not pay out though they can hold on to the money for an unreasonably long time.
All the cases that I'm personally familiar with the money eventually turned up. In some cases this took 6 months.
That doesn't excuse them but they do have some responsibilities, especially since here in the EU they are seen as a bank and have a Luxembourgian banking license.
Paypal NEVER paid me out. over 15 years ago. $800 of user payments that paid $1/mo to support a free site... they claimed i was selling illegal merchandise. i wasn't selling anything.
He may be referring to their "seller protection policy" which claims that anything sold without a shipping tracking number (AKA anything virtual) will always be refunded in the cases of a chargeback (even one through paypal's site, not through the credit card company).
This means that if a buyer charges back on a virtual sale, the buyer always wins. Even large companies such as Valve are affected by this[0]
This is de-facto the case with almost any fiat online payment. It is rare for a bank/card issuer to rule against a consumer in a dispute. No one should start a business believing they'll be able to successfully challenge more than the tiny number of flagrantly and obnoxiously fraudulent chargebacks.
I'm pretty sure the "deadline" to withdraw funds is just a scare tactic so that they can just end the platform as quickly as possible. I'd be extremely surprised if they can just keep the funds after June 12, even in the US; it's surely illegal in a place like the UK or Europe. Especially since they're part of a bigger company now, there's no way they can just keep the money (implying that if they somehow did, a person would just sue Airbnb).
Also, they really should take down some parts of their website. I just went to their site after a long time, and noticed I was still logged in, and it stated that Tilt isn't available in my country yet and if I am one of the first 100 people to sign up for a launch notification, I can get a Tilt t-shirt. It also says the following below it:
> We're expanding quickly and currently have offices in the U.S., Canada, UK, and other locations. Interested in joining our international team? Sign up above and we'll reach out when we launch in your region!
It feels like the EOL announcement of Tilt was really done quickly and sloppily. They should have taken down things that reference Tilt being an alive product, rather than just something that is existing because they won't want to be completely terrible and kill the product immediately.
My service collects payments as an agent in a two-sided network, and the amounts sit on our balance sheet as a liability. You can't ever book such funds as revenue, any auditor worth their accounting degree would smack you for that, so it can never contribute to income. Quoting a former manager of mine: "it's worse than illegal, it'd be a violation of accounting principles!"
There's also very limited scope for investment. So it's pointless retaining such funds; we try to disburse at the earliest opportunity.
I'd expect any successor entity to Tilt will remain liable. If Tilt are doing anything with the ridiculous "deadline", it's encouraging people to get that liability off their balance sheet. Speculation: perhaps some aspect of their acquisition deal is driving it, such liabilities might reduce TEV.
Deadline to withdraw easily via the existing platform. After that.... since Tilt is technically acquired, and not bankrupt, you can still get your money but you'll have to use slow offline legal methods like sending certified letters, or going through ombudsmen.
That's the logical interpretation, however, when there's money on the table and a (valid) interpretation that it will be lost, they need to be explicit and not have any ambiguity around the process. Their FAQ is no help in this as well [0].
This is all basic comms stuff, would have thought Airbnb would have been all over it. All it takes is a little line: "after 12 June, you will still be able to claim any unredeemed funds by contacting XYZ@tilt.com, from the email address associated with your account..., this may take 10-12 weeks, so we advise you withdraw using our fast and simple bank account withdrawals before 12 June." or something.
Why would someone reading this assume that they will do something illegal? Why is that the conclusion that _anyone_ jumps to?
Considered, if possible, that if money isn't out by the deadline that they will do… some other legal and responsible thing with the money. Hand it over the the governing jurisdiction as "unclaimed property"? More pro-actively reach out to people?
Nothing in this statement says they are going to do something illegal. There is no "…or we'll keep it". That line isn't in there. Your mind had to fabricate it.
I don't understand the desire to actively interpret things in the worst possible way. When I read stuff like this my entire emotional reaction is "…okay". My mental model for the state of the world has been mutated, fine. Some people seem to read stuff and want to fight with whoever wrote it. It's a press release. It was a mildly important three hours of two people's day. They do not have time to deal with people who set out to misinterpret their intentions. How does anyone have time for this? Why am I still typing!
I don't understand the desire to assume other people's interpretations are the results of them desiring to interpret things that way rather than having just interpreted them that way naturally.
This is entirely fair. I think when someone's take differs from our own, it's easy to assume that it took effort for them to get there. You're right though. It was probably just what jumped into their mind.
When I do have a negative interpretation of someone's words, and I'm sure I'm less good at this than I like to imagine myself, I like to think that I at least try to imagine how they would have liked me to interpret those words. This sounds kind of, moral platitude-ish. I don't mean it in that way. Attempting to interpret someone charitably is a self defense. It's for me. I need to think this way to keep myself settled. If I don't, I end up angry at everything.
I think you're right and I appreciate the insight. Thanks.
People are in general bad, selfish, stupid creatures at heart.
Corporations are entities in which the most selfish rise to the top.
Any reading of intentions that gives corporate press releases even the slightest benefits of doubt is probably too charitable.
Corporations at the best of times don't chop you up and feed you to pigs because you or your next of kin would stop giving them money. When it's on its way downhill even that incentive isn't terribly strong.
Various corporate entities have repeatedly proved they would literally rather kill people than make less money if they think they can escape culpability and people still don't understand that you have no value to these people.
"You can also initiate withdrawals for any collected funds to your bank account through the Tilt platform until June 12, 2017"
A plain reading of these words is after 6-12 you cannot withdraw your money. If you were unclear you could check out the faq which reiterates this.
The most charitable reading possible is that they know this would be illegal and intend to mislead people into believing this so that they will be able to close up shop easier.
> Nothing in this statement says they are going to do something illegal. There is no "…or we'll keep it". That line isn't in there. Your mind had to fabricate it.
The statement itself violates the law. It is setting up a deadline for customers to withdraw their funds which is completely illegal in all Europe.
They are setting a deadline for withdrawal "through the platform" (which they presumably will shut down then), not explicitly for withdrawals at all. (I mean, it's possible that they are that dumb, but it seems highly unlikely and legally very clear cut)
> They are setting a deadline for withdrawal "through the platform" (which they presumably will shut down then), not explicitly for withdrawals at all.
it doesn't matter, the nature itself of the statement is illegal in Europe at least.
Its the end of the quarter, roughly, and probably when payroll gets processed for the 2nd 1/2 of the month and for the 11th 2 week period which is probably more significant..
though that could also relate to layoffs maybe as well..
2 weeks to withdraw your money ? That's just ridiculous. Some people are on holidays, some are sick, some are just unable to do it in such a small timeframe...
There's a chance their customers were told earlier. I assume they'd also make an effort to reach out to people with balances as the deadline approached.
I was a huge fan of Tilt and used them for multiple campaigns (mostly social fundraising things, like if a bunch of my friends were going camping we'd dump the bar tab on there, and it was fantastic for burning man camp fundraising).
I have to say I'm super disappointed in Airbnb buying and then destroying this company, especially with the shockingly small amount of notice. Between their new logo, their ill conceived muni advertising, the ability for their platform to facilitate racism, and their handling of this I have to wonder why they haven't hired a better marketing and PR team (or if they're just ignoring the team they have). Sometimes it seems like they actively hate their own brand.
> the ability for their platform to facilitate racism
Hunh? Care to elaborate on a) what specifically AirBNB does to facilitate racism, and b) what you'd expect them to change about their 'platform' to stop people from being horrible?
In regards to AirBnB, there were a lot of concerns that people were simply not renting out to certain races.
Stuff like a black male tries to rent for a certain date, gets denied, and then an hour later a white female tries to rent it for the same date and is approved by the owner.
I believe in the example I'm citing the person affected actually created the second account of the "white female" and tried to keep the language very similar when they booked, so this example was pretty egregious.
There were also cases, although this probably fits in the category of mentally ill and just really mean, of people sending messages like "sorry no Asians" after denying a renters request.
AirBnB did respond though. One of the changes they made was how the profile picture was displayed during the booking process. Either they made it smaller or removed it completely if you were an owner approving people.
As a property lister, you are able to see the profile pic and name of the person asking to rent from you. This enables people to decide based on race/sexism pretty easily.
Not sure why this was downvoted, it's trivial for discrimination to occur when so much detail about a potential tenant is revealed and no reason needs to be provided for a rejection.
>Hunh? Care to elaborate on a) what specifically AirBNB does to facilitate racism, and b) what you'd expect them to change about their 'platform' to stop people from being horrible?
They are aware of a problem with some hosts discriminating against certain guests. Here is an article describing some things they're trying to combat this in California in particular.
Well, it's pretty clear that AirBnB has become too large to support anything like burning man fundraising.
Our company WeTravel has seen quite an uptick since tilt shut down, particularly from burning man camps and private people. Tilt was always a formidable but impossible competitor. It's hard to compete with 'totally free', especially given that they had a war chest of $60M in VC funding. However, it apparently wasn't enough.
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[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 78.9 ms ] threadI highly doubt that is legal. If you hold third party funds you can't just make some arbitrary statement or the money is yours.
They will have to make a reasonable effort to reach the affected parties and they will have to give them ample time to withdraw their funds.
All the cases that I'm personally familiar with the money eventually turned up. In some cases this took 6 months.
That doesn't excuse them but they do have some responsibilities, especially since here in the EU they are seen as a bank and have a Luxembourgian banking license.
This means that if a buyer charges back on a virtual sale, the buyer always wins. Even large companies such as Valve are affected by this[0]
[0]: https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=6687-HJV...
Google finds me plenty of reports where it apparently didn't.
Also, they really should take down some parts of their website. I just went to their site after a long time, and noticed I was still logged in, and it stated that Tilt isn't available in my country yet and if I am one of the first 100 people to sign up for a launch notification, I can get a Tilt t-shirt. It also says the following below it:
> We're expanding quickly and currently have offices in the U.S., Canada, UK, and other locations. Interested in joining our international team? Sign up above and we'll reach out when we launch in your region!
It feels like the EOL announcement of Tilt was really done quickly and sloppily. They should have taken down things that reference Tilt being an alive product, rather than just something that is existing because they won't want to be completely terrible and kill the product immediately.
There's also very limited scope for investment. So it's pointless retaining such funds; we try to disburse at the earliest opportunity.
I'd expect any successor entity to Tilt will remain liable. If Tilt are doing anything with the ridiculous "deadline", it's encouraging people to get that liability off their balance sheet. Speculation: perhaps some aspect of their acquisition deal is driving it, such liabilities might reduce TEV.
This is all basic comms stuff, would have thought Airbnb would have been all over it. All it takes is a little line: "after 12 June, you will still be able to claim any unredeemed funds by contacting XYZ@tilt.com, from the email address associated with your account..., this may take 10-12 weeks, so we advise you withdraw using our fast and simple bank account withdrawals before 12 June." or something.
[0] https://support.tilt.com/hc/en-us
Considered, if possible, that if money isn't out by the deadline that they will do… some other legal and responsible thing with the money. Hand it over the the governing jurisdiction as "unclaimed property"? More pro-actively reach out to people?
Nothing in this statement says they are going to do something illegal. There is no "…or we'll keep it". That line isn't in there. Your mind had to fabricate it.
I don't understand the desire to actively interpret things in the worst possible way. When I read stuff like this my entire emotional reaction is "…okay". My mental model for the state of the world has been mutated, fine. Some people seem to read stuff and want to fight with whoever wrote it. It's a press release. It was a mildly important three hours of two people's day. They do not have time to deal with people who set out to misinterpret their intentions. How does anyone have time for this? Why am I still typing!
When I do have a negative interpretation of someone's words, and I'm sure I'm less good at this than I like to imagine myself, I like to think that I at least try to imagine how they would have liked me to interpret those words. This sounds kind of, moral platitude-ish. I don't mean it in that way. Attempting to interpret someone charitably is a self defense. It's for me. I need to think this way to keep myself settled. If I don't, I end up angry at everything.
I think you're right and I appreciate the insight. Thanks.
Corporations are entities in which the most selfish rise to the top.
Any reading of intentions that gives corporate press releases even the slightest benefits of doubt is probably too charitable.
Corporations at the best of times don't chop you up and feed you to pigs because you or your next of kin would stop giving them money. When it's on its way downhill even that incentive isn't terribly strong.
Various corporate entities have repeatedly proved they would literally rather kill people than make less money if they think they can escape culpability and people still don't understand that you have no value to these people.
"You can also initiate withdrawals for any collected funds to your bank account through the Tilt platform until June 12, 2017"
A plain reading of these words is after 6-12 you cannot withdraw your money. If you were unclear you could check out the faq which reiterates this.
The most charitable reading possible is that they know this would be illegal and intend to mislead people into believing this so that they will be able to close up shop easier.
The statement itself violates the law. It is setting up a deadline for customers to withdraw their funds which is completely illegal in all Europe.
it doesn't matter, the nature itself of the statement is illegal in Europe at least.
though that could also relate to layoffs maybe as well..
I have to say I'm super disappointed in Airbnb buying and then destroying this company, especially with the shockingly small amount of notice. Between their new logo, their ill conceived muni advertising, the ability for their platform to facilitate racism, and their handling of this I have to wonder why they haven't hired a better marketing and PR team (or if they're just ignoring the team they have). Sometimes it seems like they actively hate their own brand.
Hunh? Care to elaborate on a) what specifically AirBNB does to facilitate racism, and b) what you'd expect them to change about their 'platform' to stop people from being horrible?
Stuff like a black male tries to rent for a certain date, gets denied, and then an hour later a white female tries to rent it for the same date and is approved by the owner.
I believe in the example I'm citing the person affected actually created the second account of the "white female" and tried to keep the language very similar when they booked, so this example was pretty egregious.
There were also cases, although this probably fits in the category of mentally ill and just really mean, of people sending messages like "sorry no Asians" after denying a renters request.
AirBnB did respond though. One of the changes they made was how the profile picture was displayed during the booking process. Either they made it smaller or removed it completely if you were an owner approving people.
They are aware of a problem with some hosts discriminating against certain guests. Here is an article describing some things they're trying to combat this in California in particular.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/04/28/airbnb-l...
Our company WeTravel has seen quite an uptick since tilt shut down, particularly from burning man camps and private people. Tilt was always a formidable but impossible competitor. It's hard to compete with 'totally free', especially given that they had a war chest of $60M in VC funding. However, it apparently wasn't enough.
Ah yes, such an incredible journey.