Ask HN: Why shouldn't I leave Google?
- I'm 26
- 2 years experience as a SWE at Google (my 1st ever job)
- Enough cash to live the next ~2 years even with no salary
- Unfulfilled at Google
- Dreaming of starting my own company
Keeping all these in mind, why am I so afraid of leaving Google?
My mentor suggested to stay at Google until I find an interesting startup idea to work on. I want to spend 6 months in SE Asia and travel the world before starting my company.
Is fear really whats holding me back? Is Google too good of a workplace to leave?
129 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 151 ms ] threadThis is a sound piece of advice.
However, it looks like you're very keen on traveling. Maybe you can take a 3-month unpaid sabbatical from Google, and see what it feels like?
If the options are: lose someone for 6 months, or lose someone completely; I'd push strongly for the former.
That's been my experience as well, but I did manage to get that dev 3 months (up from 6 weeks).
My advice? Go talk to a therapist (not a mentor, but an actual psychologist) about what you want to do. That person can help you figure out what you're afraid of, and how you can deal with it.
I've done this before with a few jobs, one of which I went back to after I left and the other thing I was pursuing didn't pan out. In the time I was gone I learned a tremendous amount about myself and what's possible. If you can something like this set this up, it's only a win-win.
A few reasons to not try something like this: (A) - you're worried you'll set back any career path you were on track for at google (B) - you're worried they won't take you back
Have no comment on (A) b/c for me I'm more interested in personal growth than specific career track at a specific company.
If (B) holds, why wouldn't they take you back? Top engineers are hard to come by. If you can't make a convincing case that you're in that top category of engineer, then what has working for Google earned you these past few years? (Other than $..)
Not a grace period per se, but pretty nice.
So are you suggesting that the 95% of people who are not to engineers are just waiting their time?
You shouldn't leave google because of all the smart people you have around, which isn't the same in a startup world, and because there are multiple projects and divisions and companies you could jump to in order to learn about different things. You should do a startup if you have an itch and an idea that makes money and you like doing.
A less drastic move is to find a job you'll actually like. They exist.
I think personal fulfillment is key to good development as a person. You say you're unfulfilled. Why? Can you make a list? Where do you think things might be different?
I'd also encourage you just to look for a job, and maybe take some interviews (perhaps at startups you think are in an interesting field). This might give you some more perspective, and either let you realize that you want to do something else - or let you recognize how good you have it, and that you shouldn't be taking it for granted. Also, recognize the difference between the perception of starting your own business vs actually doing it. It's a lot of work. It can be great, but it is certainly easier to jump on a small company that is doing something you think is interesting.
You don't know what you've got till it's gone. But you will have many jobs in your life, so I'd just suggest you not get too hung up on any one particular job, and view it more as a long journey of exploration.
Leave the squishy free breakfast huge happy company now and don't look back. You were never that googly to begin with, were you? :)
You are young and fresh, go see the world, see what else is out there. Go!
IMO the odds of this happening is very slim compared to you going out on your own. When you travel around you get to experience a lot of problems first hand and then solutions to those problems come naturally to you.
You are very young with, I'm guessing, no large responsibilities outside your job. You also have a bit of money. That means you are now free as you will probably never be again to do what you want. Take this chance to do so if you feel at all inclined.
The job at Google is in the end just a glorified joe-job, and it or something very much like it will still be there if you ever want back.
When you think of it that way, what is there to be afraid of? At the end of the 2 years, you'll still be young with an improved tech skill set and in a great position to find solid employment when returning home. Maybe you don't end up working at Google anymore, but there are plenty of other opportunities out there. Don't be afraid, go for it...
My recommendation is to find a project idea that compels you, and at least one other bright and capable person that will help ground you. Most successful companies I've seen have started this way.
It is most definitely not unethical to not comply with a bullshit authoritarian contract like that.
Nevermind the salary/overtime exempt scam that has been popular as of late, which is also wage theft.
Otherwise, if its a classic "Here is a salary and package, we own all your relevant ideas from here on" deal, I'd say that is highly unethical behavior on the company's part, and is a case of wage theft.
Should the employee be barred from moonlighting too? Not unless the company is willing to pay for said time.
To quote Martin Luther King Jr.:
"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom;"
https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....
The former I can often have a sensical conversation with and perhaps change their mind on some issues, the latter feeling an outright opposition to taking action or altering their views.
> Your game designer works for a year and invents 7 games. At the end of the year, she sues you, claiming that she owns 4 of them, because those particular games were invented between 5pm and 9am, when she wasn’t on duty.
> Ooops. That’s not what you meant. You wanted to pay her for all the games that she invents, and you recognize that the actual process of invention for which you are paying her may happen at any time… on weekdays, weekends, in the office, in the cubicle, at home, in the shower, climbing a mountain on vacation.
> So before you hire this developer, you agree, “hey listen, I know that inventing happens all the time, and it’s impossible to prove whether you invented something while you were sitting in the chair I supplied in the cubicle I supplied or not. I don’t just want to buy your 9:00-5:00 inventions. I want them all, and I’m going to pay you a nice salary to get them all,” and she agrees to that, so now you want to sign something that says that all her inventions belong to the company for as long as she is employed by the company.
> This is where we are by default. This is the standard employment contract for developers, inventors, and researchers.
On top of that, Google doesn't give a damn if you're spending some of your 9-5 hours walking around the buildings, surfing the web (or the infamous memegen), hanging out with coworkers at the microkitchen, or working out at the gym. Do you also consider these as unethical behavior by employees? By signing the employment contract, both parties are agreeing that they don't really care about 9-5 and work hours. They want all your brain's output, and they're going to pay for it. If you don't like it, you are free to walk away, but that doesn't make the contract "bullshit authoritarian".
If I get sued for violating the contract well that sucks for me but I'm certainly not going to feel bad for it.
You're saying you're happy to reneg on contractual terms. Good luck in life but those of us who stand by our word want nothing to do with you.
No, you are saying you don't want to be unemployed and starve on the streets.
> Good luck in life but those of us who stand by our word want nothing to do with you.
Standing by your word to other human beings is of course a commendable quality, standing by your word to corporations, not so much.
Since both #2 and #3 have been used by companies, clearly #3 can't be the "only practical way".
> > Your game designer works for a year and invents 7 games. At the end of the year, she sues you, claiming that she owns 4 of them, because those particular games were invented between 5pm and 9am, when she wasn’t on duty.
This is a terrible example. If the game designer delivers you 7 games during the year, that's a pretty clear indication that they are for you and are works for hire under the contract.
Also, if you are hiring her for game design, then off hours, she can't design games, because that is directly competitive. She can, however, design software that manages greenhouses. And that is as it should be.
If there are any games she designed on her own time that she doesn't want to be yours, she wouldn't have given them to you. If she kept one, launched it herself, and made a ton of money, you would probably have a claim. But she has no claim to games she gave you.
[Could she still sue? Sure, every example can be made into some court case with a possible terrible outcome -- that's called life. But this is not a realistic problem.]
Isn't that basically the same as saying that all games she design belongs to the company?
She wasn't paid for ideas, she was paid for intellectual property: code.
"hey listen, I know that inventing happens all the time, and it’s impossible to prove whether you invented something while you were sitting in the chair I supplied in the cubicle I supplied or not."
You don't need to prove whether something was invented while sitting on the chair. There's a pretty simple explicit transferral of intellectual property - you pushed it to the company github.
"that ONE GUY from 1998 who didn’t sign the agreement is going to be a real jerk about signing it now, because he knows that he’s personally holding up a $350,000,000 acquisition and he can demand a lot of money to sign."
Which happened when, exactly?
I wasn't close enough on the selling side to figure out what concessions they needed to make to make the problem go away, but it absolutely can and does hold up acquisitions.
Was this specifically about a clause in an employees contract that allowed for side projects?
Or was it, say, about a software license purchased from another company? (which probably does happen, yes)
Also, considering how much money megacorps can make of employees' ideas, I'd say that many aren't fairly compensated at all.
Doesn't the "we own all your output" line also sway employees against pursuing their own potentially world-changing ideas as well? Is that good for everyone?
I work at Google and am happy with the team and the product I'm on. The pay is good and my manager has been very supportive, they treat me very well, etc. but I'm just very unhappy in my life and considering moving.
I have only been at Google a short time (less than 6 months) but I'm contemplating switching to another office or just outright quitting and moving to a cheaper city for a bit.
It's hard to turn down the money. I feel like that's what's keeping me there, especially with the 1 year cliff for my first batch of equity. I'm afraid one year will roll around and I'll still be unhappy but then it will be even harder to turn down the money.
Meh. It depends on how well the company is doing. If someone stayed 2 years at a company doing badly instead of leave soon I'd be more worried they want to be cogs instead of innovators. (It's a two way street ;)
With google in c.v. you will have door open everywhere. To start something you maybe also need to give a look to how work some other (maybe smaller) companies, maybe get hired, stay some months, observe, may be leave. This is what happened to me before starting to be on my own, but those were the crazy dot com bubble years (1999).
Freedom is nice but needs a lot of work.
The reason you're likely afraid is that despite having some safety with savings, the future is still uncertain, no matter how much you can prepare, and even with the credibility from working at a Big 4 tech company, that doesn't mean you'll automatically succeed in future endeavors. (see also prospect theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prospect_theory)
But hey, you're young so go ahead and be reckless! Leave your job, blow your savings, come back to the States and see how quickly you are able to find a new job of the same caliber. You're in a very advantageous position and a reality check like that should put things into sharper relief for you.
If you want to travel and start a start up then do that. Google has a nice re-hire policy if you leave on good terms and have good perf reviews.
I'm 36, started in tech 20 years ago. And the only things I regret was working for someone too long, focusing on the wrong startups for too long (and yes, you can tell which ones are the bad ideas - mainly if they're too big and not focused).
The main driver of building your own stuff is necessity, pressure. And the main fuel is time to strategise and think. So by quitting your job you basically have all the needed tools.
And then you just need to get involved with things to find the right idea - talk to people, do things, try this, try that, until you find something that works and validate it. Watch different industries, see where tech could reinvent things. Take your time until you find something worthwhile, make sure it can be profitable in a short amount of time. And consult with people who've done it.
* manage people?
* raise money?
* deliver/project manage?
* be a product manager?
Do you have:
* a set of friends who have a diverse set of non-SWE skills that are willing to join you?
* Determination to make shit happen?
* the ability to give up vacations and weekends for your startup?
Running a startup sounds romantic, but the reality is considerable less so.
How could you possibly think about leave her loving clutches.