Silicon Valley is where the money is right now and everyone wants a piece of the pie, including employment lawyers. When Ellen Pao says "this is every tech company", and later in the article the solution is hiring HR people, hiring consultants and lawyers to protect you, you can kind of see where this is going. Everybody's a customer or they will be. A TV in every home, an iPhone in every pocket, a lawyer and a diversity and inclusion specialist in every startup that can afford it. Nobody is safe and there isn't much you can do but pay people off, whether that's the feminism in tech engineer who wants her settlement or the lawyers involved or whoever, a story is crystallizing here that startups are guilty, tech guys are guilty and they need to pay up.
I don't know if HR people and consultants are the solution, but denying there is a problem with diversity and inclusion in our industry requires burying your head pretty deep in the sand.
If we talk about diversity it's true women are under represented in tech.
If we talk about discrimination in the valley I'm quite sure that American white women are not suffering the most. At least they have the entire female American society backing them up.
My head is not in the sand. Your head is in the sand if you say that every single tech company condones sexual harassment. It's actually an extraordinary claim that's hard to believe, but it's become so common to make bold claims about the ubiquity and universality of racism and sexism that it sounds normal to us. The idea is that if a woman is saying she likes her job as an engineer and doesn't feel mistreated, there's something wrong with that story and I'm sure she could dig a little deeper and remember a night out where somebody made an inappropriate comment, or she wasn't invited along, or she was just in some way treated differently because of her gender. If you take it that far, you're not just fixing tech company cultures, you're fixing the patriarchy, and that's not something that a bunch of consultants can fix. I think we need to be more specific about what we're trying to fix and where the problem begins and ends, otherwise we'll just put together ineffective diversity initiatives that never really gain traction. It can't be taboo to be critical about the effectiveness of diversity and inclusion programs, otherwise we'll all just wind up with our heads in the sand, hoping we aren't next on some journalist's hit list.
Where I live 90% of people work in a industry that has a problem with diversity and inclusion, with a unemployment rate that is higher for men than women. Its not a problem isolated to a single industry or even a single society. For reasons that we don't like to talk about, the wast majority of women work in industries that exclude men and the wast majority of men work in industries that exclude women.
Maybe we should acknowledge the root cause here rather than picking which sand bucket we choose to bury our heads in?
Meanwhile men can tell the same stories of harassment, under payment and stalled careers but nobody cares because, you know, they kinda deserve it for being men.
I won't deny there is a problem in the valley, that's why I stayed in Europe, but the narrative men Vs women is wrong, US media should explore the fact that the whole American dream is about being abusive.
Hypocrisy! Brutality! The elite!
All of which are American dreams!
-- RATM
You're right, "insults" was the wrong word. A better word is "flamebait". The last thing we need here is more drive-by gender flamewarrage, and when accounts do this repeatedly (as this one has), we ban them. Hence the warning.
Where exactly is the insult..? I can imagine it's politically sensitive to people from the US, but that's not forbidden here as far as I know. It's not even rude.
Unless the original comment has been changed this is a strange thing to say.
The US has far less work benefits and rights than most first world nation's. Not saying I agree with OP but it's a valid theory that silicon valley being in the US might make it more hostile to all workers.
> edit: Ok you guys, s/insults/flamebait/ above. Late night moderation slip on my part!
an "I am sorry" would have sufficed
I've made no flamebait nor insulted anyone or any country
I've just said don't make this "men VS women" because it's powerful men and women chasing the "american dream" abusing of less powerful men and women that are trying to make a living
This is not at all what HN is for. Such comments amount to trolling whether you intend to or not. We have enough trouble with flamewars already without people casually flinging lit matches into parched forests.
We've warned you twice now. If you don't change your comments to adhere to the community guidelines (i.e. to post civilly and substantively, or not at all), we will assume you don't want to use the site as intended and ban you. If you do want to use the site as intended, please (re)-read the following:
> "Edit: Ok you guys, point taken, s/insults/flamebait/ above. Late-night misstep!"
Perhaps you should calm down a bit instead of constantly policing HN for thought-crime.
There is a difference between moderating and constantly shutting down everyone that doesn't agree with your strict views of the world (i.e. what you've just did) while giving a stage to the ones that propagate your ideology (i.e. those flags you keep removing from opinionated and non factual posts).
23 comments
[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 67.5 ms ] threadIf we talk about diversity it's true women are under represented in tech.
If we talk about discrimination in the valley I'm quite sure that American white women are not suffering the most. At least they have the entire female American society backing them up.
This is a straw man. The point is aside from whether there is a problem with D&I - but it also depends one what you mean by these terms as well.
Maybe we should acknowledge the root cause here rather than picking which sand bucket we choose to bury our heads in?
I won't deny there is a problem in the valley, that's why I stayed in Europe, but the narrative men Vs women is wrong, US media should explore the fact that the whole American dream is about being abusive.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
Edit: Ok you guys, point taken, s/insults/flamebait/. Late-night misstep!
if you haven't noticed, that was my point
it's no gender war
it's a cultural problem, competition taken to extremes can't end well
The US has far less work benefits and rights than most first world nation's. Not saying I agree with OP but it's a valid theory that silicon valley being in the US might make it more hostile to all workers.
This is 1 of maybe 4 instances I've seen your moderation be 100% off, but I'm glad it didn't go unchecked.
an american band
an "I am sorry" would have sufficed
I've made no flamebait nor insulted anyone or any country
I've just said don't make this "men VS women" because it's powerful men and women chasing the "american dream" abusing of less powerful men and women that are trying to make a living
The only flamebait here was your comment
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14534396
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14534306
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14506129
This is not at all what HN is for. Such comments amount to trolling whether you intend to or not. We have enough trouble with flamewars already without people casually flinging lit matches into parched forests.
We've warned you twice now. If you don't change your comments to adhere to the community guidelines (i.e. to post civilly and substantively, or not at all), we will assume you don't want to use the site as intended and ban you. If you do want to use the site as intended, please (re)-read the following:
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
However, I think that last comment should be taken in context with what it is replying to. Maybe a rule should be added to the guidelines:
"If you flag or downvote a comment for being uncivil, do not reply to it in kind"
Perhaps you should calm down a bit instead of constantly policing HN for thought-crime.
There is a difference between moderating and constantly shutting down everyone that doesn't agree with your strict views of the world (i.e. what you've just did) while giving a stage to the ones that propagate your ideology (i.e. those flags you keep removing from opinionated and non factual posts).